Navigating the Dating Pool
June 10, 2011 7:22 PM
How do I hold on to my personal values while not coming off as a prude to broaden my dating prospects?
I'm a single 20-something starting grad school, and thinking it'd be nice to date a bit. Here's the thing: I'm not into going out to clubs and dressing in teeny mini skirts so much any more, so should I loosen up since I'm young and can flaunt it in order to broaden my appeal to as many guys as possible?
Big parties, clubs, bar-hopping are somewhat entertaining, but I'm not so much into getting grabbed on a sweaty dance floor while listening to pounding music and smelling alcohol. It's not like I've ever had a random guy ask me out at a club or bar, so it seems pointless to consume alcohol and hang out with girlfriends out somewhere when we could be watching a movie with at home. I'd rather jam out to Christian music (seriously... I've recently gotten into it and love it) and cook, or watch a movie with a significant other than get cray cray out on the town.
It seems like the guys who are interested in me (at school and work) are very nice, and not alpha male life-of-the-party types. Don't get me wrong--I'm all for the sweet, nerdy type-- but maybe it'd be fun to date those more wild, loud guys who can work a room, just to experience it. Big masculine guys with tons of confidence hold their own appeal, and I've never dated a man like that. My friend who is constantly dating those tough, loud dudes told me I'm "marriage material" with my dress and appearance, whatever that means.
More personal details: I dress feminine and conservative (think J. Crew), and don't wear mini skirts much any more. It sort of reflects my personal values, since I don't wanna hop in the sack with a dude at least until we're engaged. Maybe after 2 years of dating or so. I'm tall, cute (I guess... yay late bloomers!), and smart with a lot going on in terms of career pursuits, so I do have excitement and passion in other areas of my life. Just not the dating arena, presently!
Final important detail: When married, I don't plan of being a prude at all... my future hubby will have to want to be as adventurous as me, if you catch my drift.
Questions:
1. Should I loosen up a bit, bust out the mini skirts and go clubbing to broaden my appeal and "live it up" during my young and hot years?
2. Will I end up with a guy that's too "nice" and not freaky enough if I don't give off a more sexual and less good girl vibe?
Hope that makes sense. I just don't wanna look back at my 20s and regret not exploring the dating pool or being more wild before the bigger responsibilities ahead.
I'm a single 20-something starting grad school, and thinking it'd be nice to date a bit. Here's the thing: I'm not into going out to clubs and dressing in teeny mini skirts so much any more, so should I loosen up since I'm young and can flaunt it in order to broaden my appeal to as many guys as possible?
Big parties, clubs, bar-hopping are somewhat entertaining, but I'm not so much into getting grabbed on a sweaty dance floor while listening to pounding music and smelling alcohol. It's not like I've ever had a random guy ask me out at a club or bar, so it seems pointless to consume alcohol and hang out with girlfriends out somewhere when we could be watching a movie with at home. I'd rather jam out to Christian music (seriously... I've recently gotten into it and love it) and cook, or watch a movie with a significant other than get cray cray out on the town.
It seems like the guys who are interested in me (at school and work) are very nice, and not alpha male life-of-the-party types. Don't get me wrong--I'm all for the sweet, nerdy type-- but maybe it'd be fun to date those more wild, loud guys who can work a room, just to experience it. Big masculine guys with tons of confidence hold their own appeal, and I've never dated a man like that. My friend who is constantly dating those tough, loud dudes told me I'm "marriage material" with my dress and appearance, whatever that means.
More personal details: I dress feminine and conservative (think J. Crew), and don't wear mini skirts much any more. It sort of reflects my personal values, since I don't wanna hop in the sack with a dude at least until we're engaged. Maybe after 2 years of dating or so. I'm tall, cute (I guess... yay late bloomers!), and smart with a lot going on in terms of career pursuits, so I do have excitement and passion in other areas of my life. Just not the dating arena, presently!
Final important detail: When married, I don't plan of being a prude at all... my future hubby will have to want to be as adventurous as me, if you catch my drift.
Questions:
1. Should I loosen up a bit, bust out the mini skirts and go clubbing to broaden my appeal and "live it up" during my young and hot years?
2. Will I end up with a guy that's too "nice" and not freaky enough if I don't give off a more sexual and less good girl vibe?
Hope that makes sense. I just don't wanna look back at my 20s and regret not exploring the dating pool or being more wild before the bigger responsibilities ahead.
This post was deleted for the following reason: Poster's request -- restless_nomad -- restless_nomad
You need to hang out at places where people you want to date will be. Apparently bars ain't it. If you attend church there is probably a "young {insert denomination here}" social group that gets together to watch movies, hang out, etc. If not that, volunteer, meetups, etc.
posted by COD at 7:30 PM on June 10, 2011
posted by COD at 7:30 PM on June 10, 2011
since I don't wanna hop in the sack with a dude at least until we're engaged.
Then nightclubs and bars are not your romantic venue. Don't worry about it - there are plenty of conservative males who feel the same way, but they won't be in nightclubs. Are you part of a church?
posted by elektrotechnicus at 7:31 PM on June 10, 2011
Then nightclubs and bars are not your romantic venue. Don't worry about it - there are plenty of conservative males who feel the same way, but they won't be in nightclubs. Are you part of a church?
posted by elektrotechnicus at 7:31 PM on June 10, 2011
It sounds like you're omitting a lot of middle ground here. The mini-skirt, alpha-male, sweaty club grope scene sounds... like it holds no appeal. Why do you feel like it should hold appeal? Just because tv shows say it's awesome? It sounds terrible.
If you want to really live it up and explore things, pick activities that you at least have a chance of actually liking!
posted by LobsterMitten at 7:31 PM on June 10, 2011
If you want to really live it up and explore things, pick activities that you at least have a chance of actually liking!
posted by LobsterMitten at 7:31 PM on June 10, 2011
You don't have to go full-on sleaze. Just be friendly and approachable. If that doesn't work, be friendly and do the approaching yourself.
posted by Sys Rq at 7:33 PM on June 10, 2011
posted by Sys Rq at 7:33 PM on June 10, 2011
There are many more ways to find dating prospects than going out clubbing. Have you checked out online dating in your area? There are a lot of different websites -- it's not all anon craigslist hookups. Write up a profile that reflects who you think you are -- fun-loving, but not someone into the club scene -- and list a couple of hobbies you have that you'd like to do with other people. Find social groups or meetups in your area that cater to your interests (like, you could join a bowling league if you are into bowling, or try finding a Christian music night at some local coffee shop or bar).
Basically, find people who are into what you're into and hang out with them.
posted by shamash at 7:34 PM on June 10, 2011
Basically, find people who are into what you're into and hang out with them.
posted by shamash at 7:34 PM on June 10, 2011
If you are in a major city, there is at least one science/ history museum which may hold a monthly mixer for the professional caste; I know for a fact these things exist in Boston and Houston. I'd look into that in your neck of the woods.
Imagine a lively scene full of ambitious careerists (suits/ties/nice shoes) who are looking for the right soulmate but who have been too busy educating themselves or are in busy careers and are as sick of the club scene as you are.
Good luck!
posted by Renoroc at 7:34 PM on June 10, 2011
Imagine a lively scene full of ambitious careerists (suits/ties/nice shoes) who are looking for the right soulmate but who have been too busy educating themselves or are in busy careers and are as sick of the club scene as you are.
Good luck!
posted by Renoroc at 7:34 PM on June 10, 2011
This is why finding people to date through activities that you like to do (for instance, if you like to hike...) makes a lot of sense. They get to see a bunch of different sides of you before the first date, so the "oh, she's boring I'll just ignore her" issue, and the "she seems like a demure housewife to be" issue are both largely avoided.
posted by SMPA at 7:34 PM on June 10, 2011
posted by SMPA at 7:34 PM on June 10, 2011
If you enjoy going out dancing and, further, enjoy wearing short skirts and low-cut tops, then by all means do so. If you don't, then don't.
The subject of what you want from dating seems less clear to me, however. You say you don't want to sleep with a man until you are either engaged or have dated two years. Men who would be willing to wait that long for you are rare, usually religious, and they generally won't be hanging out in clubs or picking up scantily clad women.
So it depends on what you want here. If you just want to flirt and date very casually and have some fun, go right ahead. But if you want a guy who will be willing to be committed but abstinent with you, you're going to have to try a different approach to find that, such as getting involved with a church (if you're religious).
And there's nothing wrong with doing both, if you want the best of both worlds.
posted by orange swan at 7:34 PM on June 10, 2011
The subject of what you want from dating seems less clear to me, however. You say you don't want to sleep with a man until you are either engaged or have dated two years. Men who would be willing to wait that long for you are rare, usually religious, and they generally won't be hanging out in clubs or picking up scantily clad women.
So it depends on what you want here. If you just want to flirt and date very casually and have some fun, go right ahead. But if you want a guy who will be willing to be committed but abstinent with you, you're going to have to try a different approach to find that, such as getting involved with a church (if you're religious).
And there's nothing wrong with doing both, if you want the best of both worlds.
posted by orange swan at 7:34 PM on June 10, 2011
I have my own strong feelings about this (solidly in the "be yourself" category, FWIW, but as far as the competition theory of dating: Do you think that the swath of the male population that you would consider dating is more likely to be interested in a woman with individual tastes and confidence in them, or in someone who is molded (at least outwardly) by peer pressure and going along with whatever is popular at the moment? I'd bet heavily on the former, and I'd also bet that it holds true for various different types of men.
I'm a mid-20s guy with a substantial amount of both dating and LTR experience, and I've never thought to myself "I really hope I can meet more women who pretend to be interested in the same things some other women are interested in!"
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 7:35 PM on June 10, 2011
I'm a mid-20s guy with a substantial amount of both dating and LTR experience, and I've never thought to myself "I really hope I can meet more women who pretend to be interested in the same things some other women are interested in!"
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 7:35 PM on June 10, 2011
Also if you're starting grad school, most places have various grad student social events - dance lessons, karaoke night, that kind of thing, which are meant to be places to meet and possibly date other grad students. Try looking for guys in departments very different from your own - if you're a scientist, see if there are business school events, and vice versa.
(Also, allow me to put in a plug for nice guys that are not alpha male-ish. They turn out, often, to be pretty great.)
posted by LobsterMitten at 7:37 PM on June 10, 2011
(Also, allow me to put in a plug for nice guys that are not alpha male-ish. They turn out, often, to be pretty great.)
posted by LobsterMitten at 7:37 PM on June 10, 2011
In the same that women are not only just Madonnas or Whores, there are many men in the world who are neither Axe-Body-Spray-wearing, club-grinding "alphas" nor milquetoast, passive nerds.
If you don't like clubs, don't go to clubs. Do some other activities you'll enjoy (volunteer, outdoorsy stuff, whatever), and you'll meet confident, interesting guys who don't like clubs either.
posted by drjimmy11 at 7:37 PM on June 10, 2011
If you don't like clubs, don't go to clubs. Do some other activities you'll enjoy (volunteer, outdoorsy stuff, whatever), and you'll meet confident, interesting guys who don't like clubs either.
posted by drjimmy11 at 7:37 PM on June 10, 2011
Why do you want to be what you are not to attract someone who would be attracted to what you aren't? I don't get it.
I couldn't agree more. If you are looking for a guy who is on board with a long stretch of abstinent dating, I don't think you are going to find him by dressing all hoochy and getting dirty on the dancefloor.
This question just reads to me like you are feeling pressure to act like someone you aren't, and do things you aren't comfortable with, just because... well, I'm not sure why. To fit in, maybe? Or because the grass is looking greener?
Lastly, the question of whether you date shy nerdy guys or big macho assertive dudes is a different one. Not all the assertive guys are going to want you in the miniskirt grinding on the dancefloor; not all the shy guys are going to be into the J Crew look. You can find plenty of the assertive guys at church, too. In other words, I think you have two or three separate things going on here (hoochy or prim? alpha or beta guy? assert your sexuality or keep it on the down low?) and you'll have an easier time figuring them out one by one than you are trying to lump them all together.
posted by Forktine at 7:46 PM on June 10, 2011
I couldn't agree more. If you are looking for a guy who is on board with a long stretch of abstinent dating, I don't think you are going to find him by dressing all hoochy and getting dirty on the dancefloor.
This question just reads to me like you are feeling pressure to act like someone you aren't, and do things you aren't comfortable with, just because... well, I'm not sure why. To fit in, maybe? Or because the grass is looking greener?
Lastly, the question of whether you date shy nerdy guys or big macho assertive dudes is a different one. Not all the assertive guys are going to want you in the miniskirt grinding on the dancefloor; not all the shy guys are going to be into the J Crew look. You can find plenty of the assertive guys at church, too. In other words, I think you have two or three separate things going on here (hoochy or prim? alpha or beta guy? assert your sexuality or keep it on the down low?) and you'll have an easier time figuring them out one by one than you are trying to lump them all together.
posted by Forktine at 7:46 PM on June 10, 2011
orange swan has it. The guys you are looking for are not going to be found at meat markets. When finding dating prospects, your clothes are not going to be the issue, your views about sex are. The no sex until engaged and/or two years thing is going to require vetting more than a few candidates before finding one you like and who will go along with it, unless you hone in pretty seriously on the religious guys. I would encourage you to be upfront when dating about your intent to abstain from sex, because I think that will be less heartache for you in the long run.
(Also, alpha male life of the party types tend not to be abstinent, if you catch my drift.)
posted by crankylex at 7:52 PM on June 10, 2011
(Also, alpha male life of the party types tend not to be abstinent, if you catch my drift.)
posted by crankylex at 7:52 PM on June 10, 2011
Oh, and fwiw I WAS you when I was young and single and conflicted about what I wanted out of life. I wound up being what I wasn't and it was very damaging to who and what I was.
Don't do that.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 7:53 PM on June 10, 2011
Don't do that.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 7:53 PM on June 10, 2011
Just as a data point: I met the man of my dreams without ever wearing a mini-skirt, going bar-hopping or consuming mass quantities of alcohol. And he's not too "nice" by any stretch of the imagination.
Your path is your own. Experiment all you like, but I believe you'll have the best possible outcome by sticking to your own values.
posted by BlahLaLa at 7:53 PM on June 10, 2011
Your path is your own. Experiment all you like, but I believe you'll have the best possible outcome by sticking to your own values.
posted by BlahLaLa at 7:53 PM on June 10, 2011
Damn! I'll say it.
As a woman who just left her 30's and is happily married now (first one didn't work out) I think what you state is TOTALLY at odds.
It's not possible to go out clubbing and look hot without getting randomly grabbed on the "sweaty dance floor." Within say, 20 nights, it will happen once or twice.
I say this as a former club promoter in NYC. I got around it by punching folks who went too far, but as a well known promoter, the bouncers always had my back. I also had a demeanor of "Don't Touch Me" (actually, you're not good enough to touch me:) working at all times, which helped. YMMV.
Now. About the 2 years before sex, but after marriage - WHOPEE!
Have you felt strongly about someone in a romantic way before? Really? Because 2 years is a ridiculously long time to wait for physical intimacy when you love someone.
WHY MUST YOU DATE FOR TWO YEARS OR SO BEFORE GETTING MARRIED. ANYWAY?
Mr. Jbenben and I knew each other for two months, dated for two weeks, got married. Three years later, we welcomed the birth of our first child in April. We weren't fully intimate before getting married (never told that before) but we were both experienced. He wanted to wait, and I thought that was super sexy. BUT. We were getting married very shortly!
Anywho.
2 years and no marriage is a significantly long time to wait. I get it (obviously-ish) but I think you are asking for the impossible.
Love just doesn't work that way and you are predisposing yourself to heaps of unnecessary drama to fulfill timelines and deadlines that are totally artificial, i.e. - of your making.
Just date and take it case by case. You'll know what to do. Much easier!
posted by jbenben at 7:59 PM on June 10, 2011
As a woman who just left her 30's and is happily married now (first one didn't work out) I think what you state is TOTALLY at odds.
It's not possible to go out clubbing and look hot without getting randomly grabbed on the "sweaty dance floor." Within say, 20 nights, it will happen once or twice.
I say this as a former club promoter in NYC. I got around it by punching folks who went too far, but as a well known promoter, the bouncers always had my back. I also had a demeanor of "Don't Touch Me" (actually, you're not good enough to touch me:) working at all times, which helped. YMMV.
Now. About the 2 years before sex, but after marriage - WHOPEE!
Have you felt strongly about someone in a romantic way before? Really? Because 2 years is a ridiculously long time to wait for physical intimacy when you love someone.
WHY MUST YOU DATE FOR TWO YEARS OR SO BEFORE GETTING MARRIED. ANYWAY?
Mr. Jbenben and I knew each other for two months, dated for two weeks, got married. Three years later, we welcomed the birth of our first child in April. We weren't fully intimate before getting married (never told that before) but we were both experienced. He wanted to wait, and I thought that was super sexy. BUT. We were getting married very shortly!
Anywho.
2 years and no marriage is a significantly long time to wait. I get it (obviously-ish) but I think you are asking for the impossible.
Love just doesn't work that way and you are predisposing yourself to heaps of unnecessary drama to fulfill timelines and deadlines that are totally artificial, i.e. - of your making.
Just date and take it case by case. You'll know what to do. Much easier!
posted by jbenben at 7:59 PM on June 10, 2011
Instead of being so worried about how you're perceived, why don't you just keep doing the activities you're doing...that you purportedly enjoy?
True story: there are always going to be people who think you are a wet towel, an insufferable prude, a crazy immoral wretch and a captivating, engaging, sexy person. If that's the case, wouldn't it be great to be You in the process?
posted by keasby at 8:01 PM on June 10, 2011
True story: there are always going to be people who think you are a wet towel, an insufferable prude, a crazy immoral wretch and a captivating, engaging, sexy person. If that's the case, wouldn't it be great to be You in the process?
posted by keasby at 8:01 PM on June 10, 2011
"Oh, I know! I just don't wanna miss out on any experiences... on getting to know all different kinds of guys."
Sweaty muscular alpha dudes at clubs don't want to get to know you. They want to bone you. Go have your experiences-- but if you don't want to bone, you're going to create a lot of unnecessary drama and frustration for everyone by hanging out with douchebags at meat-market nightclubs.
Personally, I don't think you'll be "missing out" on anything besides headaches, heartaches, and STDs.
posted by aquafortis at 8:02 PM on June 10, 2011
Sweaty muscular alpha dudes at clubs don't want to get to know you. They want to bone you. Go have your experiences-- but if you don't want to bone, you're going to create a lot of unnecessary drama and frustration for everyone by hanging out with douchebags at meat-market nightclubs.
Personally, I don't think you'll be "missing out" on anything besides headaches, heartaches, and STDs.
posted by aquafortis at 8:02 PM on June 10, 2011
It's really that much of a dealbreaker for a lot of guys, even if they're madly in love with you?I hate to ask this, but are you getting a lot of your ideas about relationships from romance novels? If so, I think you should take a break from those!
posted by craichead at 8:08 PM on June 10, 2011
It's really that much of a dealbreaker for a lot of guys, even if they're madly in love with you? That might sound naive, but I didn't realize premarital sex is the norm now for adults looking for a potential LTR.
It is very much the norm, I'm afraid. It has been the norm for many years now, I'm in my mid thirties and it was the norm twenty years ago when I started having sex. May I ask if you come from a particularly religious background?
posted by crankylex at 8:12 PM on June 10, 2011
It is very much the norm, I'm afraid. It has been the norm for many years now, I'm in my mid thirties and it was the norm twenty years ago when I started having sex. May I ask if you come from a particularly religious background?
posted by crankylex at 8:12 PM on June 10, 2011
It's really that much of a dealbreaker for a lot of guys, even if they're madly in love with you? That might sound naive, but I didn't realize premarital sex is the norm now for adults looking for a potential LTR.
Here's the thing, though: "a lot" of guys aren't going to be madly in love with you. Truly, madly, deeply? No. Infatuated, sure, but that will fade, whether or not you have sex. Real love is rare for everyone. Having sex with guys you don't love won't up your chances of finding one who will love you without sleeping with you.
It sounds like we come from similar backgrounds in some ways. I'm willing to chat privately about my life experience if you'd like, feel free to drop me a MeMail.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:13 PM on June 10, 2011
Here's the thing, though: "a lot" of guys aren't going to be madly in love with you. Truly, madly, deeply? No. Infatuated, sure, but that will fade, whether or not you have sex. Real love is rare for everyone. Having sex with guys you don't love won't up your chances of finding one who will love you without sleeping with you.
It sounds like we come from similar backgrounds in some ways. I'm willing to chat privately about my life experience if you'd like, feel free to drop me a MeMail.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:13 PM on June 10, 2011
It's really that much of a dealbreaker for a lot of guys, even if they're madly in love with you? That might sound naive, but I didn't realize premarital sex is the norm now for adults looking for a potential LTR.
This might sound rude, but are you in the Bible Belt? 20something guy on the West Coast here, I honestly haven't known anyone (aside from the very religious) who doesn't have premarital sex.
Personally I wouldn't want to wait until marriage to find out whether I'm sexually compatible with someone, even if they're great. That's a big risk, and there are a lot of great potential partners out there who won't make me take that risk...
(of course, do what feels right, etc. etc. Just realize that no-sex-until-marriage is going to be a dealbreaker for lots of decent guys)
posted by ripley_ at 8:14 PM on June 10, 2011
This might sound rude, but are you in the Bible Belt? 20something guy on the West Coast here, I honestly haven't known anyone (aside from the very religious) who doesn't have premarital sex.
Personally I wouldn't want to wait until marriage to find out whether I'm sexually compatible with someone, even if they're great. That's a big risk, and there are a lot of great potential partners out there who won't make me take that risk...
(of course, do what feels right, etc. etc. Just realize that no-sex-until-marriage is going to be a dealbreaker for lots of decent guys)
posted by ripley_ at 8:14 PM on June 10, 2011
Questions:
1. Should I loosen up a bit, bust out the mini skirts and go clubbing to broaden my appeal and "live it up" during my young and hot years?
If not now, when? If this is something you want to do, then sure. Just because you wear a short skirt to a club and make out with a guy doesn't mean you have to have sex with him. I don't see how acting outside of your range of normal has to sink you off the deep-end of your moral spectrum.
2. Will I end up with a guy that's too "nice" and not freaky enough if I don't give off a more sexual and less good girl vibe?
What? No. This is silly.
posted by samthemander at 8:16 PM on June 10, 2011
1. Should I loosen up a bit, bust out the mini skirts and go clubbing to broaden my appeal and "live it up" during my young and hot years?
If not now, when? If this is something you want to do, then sure. Just because you wear a short skirt to a club and make out with a guy doesn't mean you have to have sex with him. I don't see how acting outside of your range of normal has to sink you off the deep-end of your moral spectrum.
2. Will I end up with a guy that's too "nice" and not freaky enough if I don't give off a more sexual and less good girl vibe?
What? No. This is silly.
posted by samthemander at 8:16 PM on June 10, 2011
Also, it's totally possible for you to go on a date or two with a wide variety of guys. However, after a couple of dates, most guys are going to be thinking about sexual intimacy. It's at that point that you should discuss your desire to wait until you are engaged. Be prepared for them to tell you that you are an awesome girl but that they're not into abstinence.
I'm sure there are guys who are interested in abstinence as well, they're just going to be a little harder to find.
posted by crankylex at 8:17 PM on June 10, 2011
I'm sure there are guys who are interested in abstinence as well, they're just going to be a little harder to find.
posted by crankylex at 8:17 PM on June 10, 2011
It's really that much of a dealbreaker for a lot of guys, even if they're madly in love with you? That might sound naive, but I didn't realize premarital sex is the norm now for adults looking for a potential LTR.
Yes. Everybody else is fucking, or at least trying to. Sorry.
I've known exactly two people that waited until the wedding night. They were both *ahem* "religious". So if that's what you want, well, I guess start shopping at church.
(Neither of them was me. And I'm hardly a wild child, and neither is my peer group. I was on honor roll, a mathlete, and president of my church youth organization in HS. In college I majored in sciences, and didn't drink or party much. I have never worn a mini-skirt.)
posted by Green Eyed Monster at 8:19 PM on June 10, 2011
Yes. Everybody else is fucking, or at least trying to. Sorry.
I've known exactly two people that waited until the wedding night. They were both *ahem* "religious". So if that's what you want, well, I guess start shopping at church.
(Neither of them was me. And I'm hardly a wild child, and neither is my peer group. I was on honor roll, a mathlete, and president of my church youth organization in HS. In college I majored in sciences, and didn't drink or party much. I have never worn a mini-skirt.)
posted by Green Eyed Monster at 8:19 PM on June 10, 2011
Wow, what a loaded question!
Um, pre-marital sex has been the norm since like 1969, or forever. I don't get how you can want to dress sexy and attract the "alpha male", but don't want to have sex for two years.
The alpha males (and beta, delta, gamma) are going to want to have sex with you immediately. If that's not what you want, then stay away from the alpha males. If you want to "gain experience" with those kinds of guys, you're going to have to expect them wanting to bang you. That's just how it is.
If you want a guy that's willing to wait years for sex, going out to clubs in mini skirts is not the way to find that guy. You might find him in your church group. If you go out clubbing in a mini skirt, flirting, but don't want to have sex, you might get in a lot of trouble. Sorry, but that's the way it is.
This question is doing my head in.
posted by Diag at 8:23 PM on June 10, 2011
Um, pre-marital sex has been the norm since like 1969, or forever. I don't get how you can want to dress sexy and attract the "alpha male", but don't want to have sex for two years.
The alpha males (and beta, delta, gamma) are going to want to have sex with you immediately. If that's not what you want, then stay away from the alpha males. If you want to "gain experience" with those kinds of guys, you're going to have to expect them wanting to bang you. That's just how it is.
If you want a guy that's willing to wait years for sex, going out to clubs in mini skirts is not the way to find that guy. You might find him in your church group. If you go out clubbing in a mini skirt, flirting, but don't want to have sex, you might get in a lot of trouble. Sorry, but that's the way it is.
This question is doing my head in.
posted by Diag at 8:23 PM on June 10, 2011
If you go out clubbing in a mini skirt, flirting, but don't want to have sex, you might get in a lot of trouble meet guys who will misinterpret that to mean that you are interested in sex, but, of course, any actions they take are their complete responsibility. Just try to be clear up front and take care of your safety.
posted by acoutu at 8:28 PM on June 10, 2011
posted by acoutu at 8:28 PM on June 10, 2011
I agree with you, acoutu. I'm not trying to put the blame on the woman. You've interpreted what I was trying to say more correctly.
posted by Diag at 8:32 PM on June 10, 2011
posted by Diag at 8:32 PM on June 10, 2011
Another thing I wanted to comment on: you mention being concerned that you will end up marrying a guy who doesn't want to explore weird sex stuff with you (or something to that effect). This is a solvable problem, because you can and should talk it all through before you get engaged. And there are plenty of things you can do to be intimate and test your compatibility in that regard without risking an unwanted conception.
posted by LobsterMitten at 8:33 PM on June 10, 2011
posted by LobsterMitten at 8:33 PM on June 10, 2011
This question presumes so many false binaries. Miniskirt vs JCrew. Freaky vs conservative. Clubbing vs watching movies. Alpha males vs Sweet nerds. Marriage material vs loosened up. Oh my god, girl, the world is so big, and there is room for everything along the gorgeous multi-hued spectrum. Why decide anything has to be either or! Why do you have to be one kind of person or another! Guys as a whole don't like one thing or another!
It's really simple. If you - personally - think that what is fun for you is wearing a miniskirt (that can be fun) or going out dancing (that can be fun) or tossing your hair all flirty on the dancefloor (that can be fun!) then go! And the guys who would consider you "fun loving and cool to date" would see you having fun and maybe be into you. If you think something ELSE is fun - cooking! christian music concerts! hiking! etc! - the guys who considers THOSE things fun and see you enjoying yourself too might be into you.
There are so many ways to telegraph sexiness, sultriness, availability, whatever it is you want to convey - that's not in a crappy stale alcohol-smelling club with a drink in your hand and a short skirt on while some dude shouts his alpha name in your ear and grinds on your butt. And I say this as someone who spent most of my twenties early clubbing and loving every minute of it.
posted by sestaaak at 8:46 PM on June 10, 2011
It's really simple. If you - personally - think that what is fun for you is wearing a miniskirt (that can be fun) or going out dancing (that can be fun) or tossing your hair all flirty on the dancefloor (that can be fun!) then go! And the guys who would consider you "fun loving and cool to date" would see you having fun and maybe be into you. If you think something ELSE is fun - cooking! christian music concerts! hiking! etc! - the guys who considers THOSE things fun and see you enjoying yourself too might be into you.
There are so many ways to telegraph sexiness, sultriness, availability, whatever it is you want to convey - that's not in a crappy stale alcohol-smelling club with a drink in your hand and a short skirt on while some dude shouts his alpha name in your ear and grinds on your butt. And I say this as someone who spent most of my twenties early clubbing and loving every minute of it.
posted by sestaaak at 8:46 PM on June 10, 2011
While I can appreciate being curious and wanting to um, "experience" all sorts of guys, even the nerdy guys will expect sex before marriage. I don't know anyone who did. Two years is a really, really long time to wait in world where sex is fairly standard after a few weeks of successful dates. But I'm kind of taken aback, as it sounds like your reticence about sex-before-marriage is more fear-based (drama, getting pregnant, putting career on hold--good reasons to take sex seriously) than morals-based.
And, yes, sex creates drama, but learning how to deal with said drama is part of adult life. And even if you *do* find a man who is willing to wait, the chances that he doesn't have some past-life drama is fairly unlikely. Determining sexual compatibility is really important, IMO. Getting hitched to someone with very different tastes and drives can be horrible if monogamy is important (and it sounds like it would be to you).
As for worrying about the hypothetical Mr. Most-Patient-Cold-Showering-Man-Ever not being adventuresome after marriage...well, *talking* about sex isn't off the table, is it? It will be even MORE important to discuss likes/dislikes, expectations, etc. with him.
I have never met an alpha-male/life-of-the-party guy who didn't expect to get it within three dates. YMMV.
posted by smirkette at 8:48 PM on June 10, 2011
And, yes, sex creates drama, but learning how to deal with said drama is part of adult life. And even if you *do* find a man who is willing to wait, the chances that he doesn't have some past-life drama is fairly unlikely. Determining sexual compatibility is really important, IMO. Getting hitched to someone with very different tastes and drives can be horrible if monogamy is important (and it sounds like it would be to you).
As for worrying about the hypothetical Mr. Most-Patient-Cold-Showering-Man-Ever not being adventuresome after marriage...well, *talking* about sex isn't off the table, is it? It will be even MORE important to discuss likes/dislikes, expectations, etc. with him.
I have never met an alpha-male/life-of-the-party guy who didn't expect to get it within three dates. YMMV.
posted by smirkette at 8:48 PM on June 10, 2011
I dress feminine and conservative (think J. Crew)
J. Crew looks like this and this nowadays. Lots of minis!
Zeroing in on that one bit of this -- I will offer that you have many decades in which to rock the twinsets. If I have a fashion regret it is too much Talbots at too young an age. I would not suggest wearing anything that makes you uncomfortable, but if you pushed the envelope here slightly, you might feel like you are having more fun. It sounds like you might enjoy "loosening up" in ways that do not involve bedding sweaty boys.
There are loads of reliable methods of birth control out there besides the pill, many of which are non-hormonal -- I mention in case you find yourself changing your views on wanting to have sex before wanting to procreate.
posted by kmennie at 8:49 PM on June 10, 2011
J. Crew looks like this and this nowadays. Lots of minis!
Zeroing in on that one bit of this -- I will offer that you have many decades in which to rock the twinsets. If I have a fashion regret it is too much Talbots at too young an age. I would not suggest wearing anything that makes you uncomfortable, but if you pushed the envelope here slightly, you might feel like you are having more fun. It sounds like you might enjoy "loosening up" in ways that do not involve bedding sweaty boys.
There are loads of reliable methods of birth control out there besides the pill, many of which are non-hormonal -- I mention in case you find yourself changing your views on wanting to have sex before wanting to procreate.
posted by kmennie at 8:49 PM on June 10, 2011
ack.
*If you think something ELSE is fun - cooking! christian music concerts! hiking! etc! - DO THOSE THINGS - the guys who considers THOSE things fun and see you enjoying yourself DOING THOSE THINGS too might be into you.
posted by sestaaak at 8:49 PM on June 10, 2011
*If you think something ELSE is fun - cooking! christian music concerts! hiking! etc! - DO THOSE THINGS - the guys who considers THOSE things fun and see you enjoying yourself DOING THOSE THINGS too might be into you.
posted by sestaaak at 8:49 PM on June 10, 2011
I don't at all mean to denigrate your choice to remain abstinent, but I will say this. When you start dating a guy you're really into, you will probably want to have sex. That doesn't mean that you will have sex, but you will probably want to. And he will probably want to, also. And that's a recipe for getting caught up in the heat of the moment and having unprotected sex, which as you know could really mess up your plans and goals. So as you embark on the dating thing, please take some time periodically to reevaluate where you stand with regards to sex, and if you think you might be changing your mind, figure out what you're going to do for birth control and STD protection. I know an awful lot of people who started their dating careers thinking that they would remain abstinent until marriage, and pretty much all of them changed their minds. The only person I know who actually did that was acting out of very strong religious convictions, and she married her husband within a few months of meeting him. It turned out that when she met a guy she was really into, she wanted to have sex with him right away. For her, that meant getting married right away. But it doesn't sound like getting married right away is necessarily going to be on your agenda, and boy would I hate for you to end up in a situation where your plan to fend off drama ended up getting you into exactly the kind of drama you wanted to avoid.
posted by craichead at 8:52 PM on June 10, 2011
posted by craichead at 8:52 PM on June 10, 2011
I dress feminine and conservative (think J. Crew), and don't wear mini skirts much any more. It sort of reflects my personal values, since I don't wanna hop in the sack with a dude at least until we're engaged.
I'm sorry, but I have to call you out on this. Women who wear revealing clothing do not necessarily want to "hop in the sack" willy-nilly, and women who dress more conservatively are not necessarily more chaste. You can't judge someone by how they dress.
To address your question, I think you're getting kind of bogged down on the notion that you need to "try out" lots of different "types" of guys. I don't think you'll be better equipped to determine whether you're enjoying a particular relationship if you've had experience dating many different flavors of man. In fact, I wonder if you spend long enough dating people you're not compatible with, it will re-calibrate what you're willing to put up with -- "I don't feel much of a spark with Frank but at least he doesn't yell at me like Bob did or spend all his free time with his friends like Joe did."
I think online dating is a good option for you. It allows you to put yourself out there to a pretty large pool of potential dates in a short amount of time while being upfront about what you are and are not looking for.
posted by kitty teeth at 8:54 PM on June 10, 2011
I'm sorry, but I have to call you out on this. Women who wear revealing clothing do not necessarily want to "hop in the sack" willy-nilly, and women who dress more conservatively are not necessarily more chaste. You can't judge someone by how they dress.
To address your question, I think you're getting kind of bogged down on the notion that you need to "try out" lots of different "types" of guys. I don't think you'll be better equipped to determine whether you're enjoying a particular relationship if you've had experience dating many different flavors of man. In fact, I wonder if you spend long enough dating people you're not compatible with, it will re-calibrate what you're willing to put up with -- "I don't feel much of a spark with Frank but at least he doesn't yell at me like Bob did or spend all his free time with his friends like Joe did."
I think online dating is a good option for you. It allows you to put yourself out there to a pretty large pool of potential dates in a short amount of time while being upfront about what you are and are not looking for.
posted by kitty teeth at 8:54 PM on June 10, 2011
Also, sexually, there is the middle ground between club one night stands and waiting until marriage. You can always wait until you are in a committed monogamous relationship with a partner that is in the conversation of heading towards marriage.
posted by Vaike at 8:57 PM on June 10, 2011
posted by Vaike at 8:57 PM on June 10, 2011
About sex, I agree with everyone that it is the norm to do it pre-maritally, obviously -- HOWEVER, for you, OP, if that's not what you want, it's not like you have to or something. Whether/when/how to have sex is a decision between two people and two people only. Maybe your best match will share your feelings and want to wait. If that's really what you want, I see no reason you should compromise that. Now, if what you want changes (when you meet someone you really like or for whatever reason), that's a different conversation.
Oh, and um nthing not gussying up like a slut and then going out clubbing when it sounds like you'd rather listen to Christian music and go to movies while wearing JCrew, or whatever. Just do what you like and don't worry about what makes you most attractive. You being the awesomest you possible is what makes you attractive, bar none.
posted by pupstocks at 8:59 PM on June 10, 2011
Oh, and um nthing not gussying up like a slut and then going out clubbing when it sounds like you'd rather listen to Christian music and go to movies while wearing JCrew, or whatever. Just do what you like and don't worry about what makes you most attractive. You being the awesomest you possible is what makes you attractive, bar none.
posted by pupstocks at 8:59 PM on June 10, 2011
Also, I changed my mind about the word "norm" -- yes, the majority of people have pre-marital sex, but it's not ABNORMAL not to do it. There's nothing WRONG with you if you choose differently.
posted by pupstocks at 8:59 PM on June 10, 2011
posted by pupstocks at 8:59 PM on June 10, 2011
I used to have similar thoughts to you re: love and sex. Then I fell in love.
When you're in love, you want to express that love in all the ways that feel natural. One of the ways that feels natural is sex. Not doing so starts to feel ridiculously artificial, this barrier you're setting up for yourself just for the sake of it. Unless you have heavy ideological reasons to fight those feelings (i.e. religion), you may well find yourself changing your mind when you meet the right fellow.
That's why I'd go into this with an open mind. Date whoever you're attracted to. Make it clear you aren't willing to rush into sex, but don't put a time limit or a relationship status on it. Just see what happens. Live!
posted by Georgina at 9:04 PM on June 10, 2011
When you're in love, you want to express that love in all the ways that feel natural. One of the ways that feels natural is sex. Not doing so starts to feel ridiculously artificial, this barrier you're setting up for yourself just for the sake of it. Unless you have heavy ideological reasons to fight those feelings (i.e. religion), you may well find yourself changing your mind when you meet the right fellow.
That's why I'd go into this with an open mind. Date whoever you're attracted to. Make it clear you aren't willing to rush into sex, but don't put a time limit or a relationship status on it. Just see what happens. Live!
posted by Georgina at 9:04 PM on June 10, 2011
OP, I read this whole entire thread, and am now going to stick to the very barest of answers in the interest of a conflict-free AskMe.
1) Yes, you should go to clubs in miniskirts. There are several reasons why you should do so. The first and foremost reason is because you clearly want to, so just go do it. The second reason is because it will show you that those OMG SUPERHOT FRAT GUYS are douches and you won't want to be there after you're there for about a half hour. The third reason is because you never, ever know who's going to be at one of those clubs the night that you are. There just might be a cool person at the club that you get smushed next to trying to get a drink while beating your way through a crowd of collar-popping alpha males....
2) Do not underestimate the "nice guys." My boyfriend, soon to be fiance, is a "nice guy" when you first see him and say hi. I bet if you, OP, saw him at some booty club you'd be like "Oh, he seems niiiiice, but I want....." Well, he's not. In the six months we've been together, and in the lifetime that we will, he has saved me from random street crazies, driven me back to PA from fucking Mardi Gras while I lay in the passenger seat and moaned, got in some junkie's face about talking nicely to me, explained to me the basics of why I need to get my shit together, explained to me how Plato's Cave works, went horseback riding with me, taught me how to play tennis, read books with me, and tied me to a bed and just....yeah. I shit you not. Club-type guys might miss doing one of those things, if not all of them....
I guess this isn't the barest of answers anymore :) but I get carried away. MeMail me if you'd like further input...and either way, just do what you GENUINELY want to do.
posted by deep thought sunstar at 9:35 PM on June 10, 2011
1) Yes, you should go to clubs in miniskirts. There are several reasons why you should do so. The first and foremost reason is because you clearly want to, so just go do it. The second reason is because it will show you that those OMG SUPERHOT FRAT GUYS are douches and you won't want to be there after you're there for about a half hour. The third reason is because you never, ever know who's going to be at one of those clubs the night that you are. There just might be a cool person at the club that you get smushed next to trying to get a drink while beating your way through a crowd of collar-popping alpha males....
2) Do not underestimate the "nice guys." My boyfriend, soon to be fiance, is a "nice guy" when you first see him and say hi. I bet if you, OP, saw him at some booty club you'd be like "Oh, he seems niiiiice, but I want....." Well, he's not. In the six months we've been together, and in the lifetime that we will, he has saved me from random street crazies, driven me back to PA from fucking Mardi Gras while I lay in the passenger seat and moaned, got in some junkie's face about talking nicely to me, explained to me the basics of why I need to get my shit together, explained to me how Plato's Cave works, went horseback riding with me, taught me how to play tennis, read books with me, and tied me to a bed and just....yeah. I shit you not. Club-type guys might miss doing one of those things, if not all of them....
I guess this isn't the barest of answers anymore :) but I get carried away. MeMail me if you'd like further input...and either way, just do what you GENUINELY want to do.
posted by deep thought sunstar at 9:35 PM on June 10, 2011
Guttmacher out of PubMed lists that in 2002, by the age of 20 75% of people have had premarital sex. By the age of 44 that jumps to 95%. In other words, it's not just the norm, it's almost ubiquitous. From what I've seen, waiting more than a month or two is seen as out of the ordinary, unless it's a particularly religious couple.
The biggest contradiction in what you seem to want that hasn't already been covered in depth is wanting to wait until 2+ years and engaged to have sex, yet still wanting someone who wants to be adventurous in bed once you are married.
I seriously can't think of a single person I have ever met, even in passing who would fit this description. In my experience, wanting to wait that long (And that is an anomalously long time within the United States, I'm not as sure elsewhere) and wanting to be adventurous in bed are mutually exclusive. (Not that they couldn't mix, but again I have yet to even hear of such a person popping up.)
So in short, if you want people who are willing/interested in waiting that long, look at churches and other religious congregations. If you want adventurous in bed, there's many other places to look (Depending on how far down that line you're thinking).
posted by CrystalDave at 9:56 PM on June 10, 2011
The biggest contradiction in what you seem to want that hasn't already been covered in depth is wanting to wait until 2+ years and engaged to have sex, yet still wanting someone who wants to be adventurous in bed once you are married.
I seriously can't think of a single person I have ever met, even in passing who would fit this description. In my experience, wanting to wait that long (And that is an anomalously long time within the United States, I'm not as sure elsewhere) and wanting to be adventurous in bed are mutually exclusive. (Not that they couldn't mix, but again I have yet to even hear of such a person popping up.)
So in short, if you want people who are willing/interested in waiting that long, look at churches and other religious congregations. If you want adventurous in bed, there's many other places to look (Depending on how far down that line you're thinking).
posted by CrystalDave at 9:56 PM on June 10, 2011
I hope you're not offended by this, but I agree with you, you definitely shouldn't be having sex.
You sound really, really young. I know you say you're a twenty-something heading to grad school, but honestly, I would have expected your question, complete with the false dichotomies and the assumptions to be coming from an eighteen year old's fingertips. You did mention you hung around with sheltered people... perhaps they weren't the only ones?
What I suppose I mean to say is that it sounds like you're still working on becoming who you are, not just perusing which shallow "category" of male you'd like to pick up at the local Guyatorium. So yeah, experiment. Not just with different guys, but different YOUs. Try a new hobby or sport or exercise a week, audit classes, read books that you'd never pick up on your own, pick restaurants based on not knowing what half the food is. Take study abroad opportunities if they're offered. Go to crazy places on vacation, try to become a YouTube superstar, watch fetish porn of all stripes, expand your horizons. And, go ahead and Brady-date all different kinds of guys.
It sounds hokey, and totally unrelated to your question, but it really is. When you've explored, and your worldview is as wide as you can make it, you'll know exactly what you want when you meet him. Then... well, that would really be between you and him, won't it?
posted by mornie_alantie at 10:00 PM on June 10, 2011
You sound really, really young. I know you say you're a twenty-something heading to grad school, but honestly, I would have expected your question, complete with the false dichotomies and the assumptions to be coming from an eighteen year old's fingertips. You did mention you hung around with sheltered people... perhaps they weren't the only ones?
What I suppose I mean to say is that it sounds like you're still working on becoming who you are, not just perusing which shallow "category" of male you'd like to pick up at the local Guyatorium. So yeah, experiment. Not just with different guys, but different YOUs. Try a new hobby or sport or exercise a week, audit classes, read books that you'd never pick up on your own, pick restaurants based on not knowing what half the food is. Take study abroad opportunities if they're offered. Go to crazy places on vacation, try to become a YouTube superstar, watch fetish porn of all stripes, expand your horizons. And, go ahead and Brady-date all different kinds of guys.
It sounds hokey, and totally unrelated to your question, but it really is. When you've explored, and your worldview is as wide as you can make it, you'll know exactly what you want when you meet him. Then... well, that would really be between you and him, won't it?
posted by mornie_alantie at 10:00 PM on June 10, 2011
"It's really that much of a dealbreaker for a lot of guys, even if they're madly in love with you? That might sound naive, but I didn't realize premarital sex is the norm now for adults looking for a potential LTR." and "I've hung out with sheltered overachievers (mostly females) and decided with all the drama I witnessed in college that stemmed from screwing dudes, it's better left to a later stage in a relationship, when you'd both be ready for a kid. ... Hopefully there will be a few good men out there who feel this way, too!"
As a high achiever you are likely to be surrounded by a higher-than-average number of virgins, both male and female. High school and college students that are highly focused on academic success tend to wait longer to begin having sex, for pretty much the reasons you stated; it seems safer, they don't want the drama, they have something else they're focused on. I went to a top law school and I was surrounded by a CRAZY number of 20-something virgins (seriously verging on 50%, which is astonishingly high). So you will likely meet other women, and men, through your academic endeavors, who put off sexual relationships for much the same reasons you did. You will likely meet other women, and men, who engage in sexual relationships choosily and cautiously (i.e., they trade STD panels, they always go double dutch on the birth control).
That said. Premarital sex is ABSOLUTELY the norm -- 95% of Americans in 2002, apparently. (Does anyone even call it premarital sex anymore, other than my priest? Like, it's just sex these days; people only get wound up when it's EXTRAmarital. Premarital isn't even worth remarking on.) It's not just a dealbreaker for a lot of GUYS; it's a dealbreaker for a lot of GIRLS. And look, relationships are not something where girls look for commitment and guys look for sex, which your attitude seems to convey. Relationships are something that grows between two people with compatible personalities, values, etc. Who decide together whether and when to have sex. You are not a cow withholding milk so the farmer will pay for you.
You sound really sheltered, and really inexperienced with human relationships (not just romantic ones). Perhaps you might read a little more about real people (sociological trend stories in good magazines, even). Maybe, if you haven't, you should travel a little, see some different parts of the world. Maybe you should people watch and talk more with other people to find out how their inner lives work. Some of these people should probably be men, since you don't seem to know very much about them and are stereotyping them.
Go to clubs if you want to. Don't if you don't. Wear miniskirts if you want to. Don't if you don't. I don't regret things I did and didn't do in my 20s because I did the things I wanted to do, and didn't do the other ones. It's not like you turn 30 and become a different person who suddenly has totally different attitudes on what's fun and interesting and worthwhile and therefore wish you'd done something else in your 20s. I don't say this to be snarky, but for someone who has spent a LOT of time thinking about her values, you don't seem to know yourself as a PERSON very well.
I think you need to get to know more people. Starting with you.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:09 PM on June 10, 2011
As a high achiever you are likely to be surrounded by a higher-than-average number of virgins, both male and female. High school and college students that are highly focused on academic success tend to wait longer to begin having sex, for pretty much the reasons you stated; it seems safer, they don't want the drama, they have something else they're focused on. I went to a top law school and I was surrounded by a CRAZY number of 20-something virgins (seriously verging on 50%, which is astonishingly high). So you will likely meet other women, and men, through your academic endeavors, who put off sexual relationships for much the same reasons you did. You will likely meet other women, and men, who engage in sexual relationships choosily and cautiously (i.e., they trade STD panels, they always go double dutch on the birth control).
That said. Premarital sex is ABSOLUTELY the norm -- 95% of Americans in 2002, apparently. (Does anyone even call it premarital sex anymore, other than my priest? Like, it's just sex these days; people only get wound up when it's EXTRAmarital. Premarital isn't even worth remarking on.) It's not just a dealbreaker for a lot of GUYS; it's a dealbreaker for a lot of GIRLS. And look, relationships are not something where girls look for commitment and guys look for sex, which your attitude seems to convey. Relationships are something that grows between two people with compatible personalities, values, etc. Who decide together whether and when to have sex. You are not a cow withholding milk so the farmer will pay for you.
You sound really sheltered, and really inexperienced with human relationships (not just romantic ones). Perhaps you might read a little more about real people (sociological trend stories in good magazines, even). Maybe, if you haven't, you should travel a little, see some different parts of the world. Maybe you should people watch and talk more with other people to find out how their inner lives work. Some of these people should probably be men, since you don't seem to know very much about them and are stereotyping them.
Go to clubs if you want to. Don't if you don't. Wear miniskirts if you want to. Don't if you don't. I don't regret things I did and didn't do in my 20s because I did the things I wanted to do, and didn't do the other ones. It's not like you turn 30 and become a different person who suddenly has totally different attitudes on what's fun and interesting and worthwhile and therefore wish you'd done something else in your 20s. I don't say this to be snarky, but for someone who has spent a LOT of time thinking about her values, you don't seem to know yourself as a PERSON very well.
I think you need to get to know more people. Starting with you.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:09 PM on June 10, 2011
I just mean that I don't wanna falsely advertise to guys (and we all know the idea a dude gets from seeing a girl dressed in outfits that reveal a lot of cleavage, leg, etc, naturally) who would give me attention solely due to the sexual nature of my dress. You know what I'm sayin'. They'd be disappointed!
You're spending a lot of time worrying about the imaginary feelings of imaginary guys. 1. On a practical level, there are lots of girls who dress revealingly who are not abstinent; if you dress revealingly, you aren't going to be preventing guys from looking at/meeting those girls; 2. it's not your job to worry about "false advertising" to men, seriously, because you are not a service provider, you're a person; 3. creepy guys will see anything you do as "false advertising" if they want you to put out and you don't, while non creepy guys will not.
Seriously, to me your post sounds like you want to have sex, possibly lots of it, with a variety of guys - but that you aren't comfortable with this (and that you also want to be abstinent but aren't comfortable with that). Your post is all fascinated by the whole sweaty-clubs-alpha-guys-mini-skirts thing.
I personally dated a very nice fellow with lots of muscles, etc etc, when I was in my twenties - very different from my usual type - and honestly, it's kind of nice to have slept with someone with abs who could pick me up and throw me over his shoulder. That's not at all what I look for in a partner, but it was fun and it just confirmed that abs and so on are a pleasant extra but not even remotely a requirement. If anything, I wish I'd dated around a bit more. It hasn't blighted my life, but I really would tell me younger, less busy, thinner, bigger-dating-pool-having self to sleep with more people. It would have been fun, and I certainly could have had a few more partners without plunging into a maelstrom of nightclubbing decadence.
It's okay to want to have sex with "alpha" guys (although the women I know who chronically date "alpha" guys have unhappy dating lives; it would be much better just to hook up and move on because those guys have, at best, a lot of entitlement issues).
If I were transformed into you, I would ditch the abstinence thing and date casually to see how it goes. If I still was fascinated by the clubs/bars business, I'd try it out - but not until I had some more dating/sexual experience. I'd wear some goddamn miniskirts if I felt like it, too.
It's not just that your goals ("freaky" marriage partner who is willing to be abstinent during dating/engagement) seem incompatible; it's that your post seems like you're fascinated by and anxious about your own sexual potential. This makes me feel like abstinence is maybe not an organic/internal goal of yours but is received/external/cultural.
When you're young and unattached, you should (safely) try out a bunch of stuff. Birth control is (despite a lot of contemporary palaver) safe and reliable; non-penetrative sex can be satisfying and fun with no risk of pregnancy. Sex will not derail your career or education unless you let it, any more than any other thing you do outside of school or work.
posted by Frowner at 10:18 PM on June 10, 2011
I just mean that I don't wanna falsely advertise to guys (and we all know the idea a dude gets from seeing a girl dressed in outfits that reveal a lot of cleavage, leg, etc, naturally) who would give me attention solely due to the sexual nature of my dress.
Maybe, but you'd be surprised what turns different guys on... all kinds of stuff. It could be your sweater set, a certain kind of shoe, the clip in your hair, your glasses, the way you bite your lip while you're reading at a cafe, etc. Guys may well give you attention solely due to one of these things (that they may find sexual) that you didn't even realize was attractive or fetishized.
Go out and dress the way you want and do the things you want and you will gradually learn all about the varied world of people out there. If I were to go back to my 20s I would tell myself to just be more open to meeting people without expectations or thinking too much about it.
posted by Bunglegirl at 10:24 PM on June 10, 2011
Maybe, but you'd be surprised what turns different guys on... all kinds of stuff. It could be your sweater set, a certain kind of shoe, the clip in your hair, your glasses, the way you bite your lip while you're reading at a cafe, etc. Guys may well give you attention solely due to one of these things (that they may find sexual) that you didn't even realize was attractive or fetishized.
Go out and dress the way you want and do the things you want and you will gradually learn all about the varied world of people out there. If I were to go back to my 20s I would tell myself to just be more open to meeting people without expectations or thinking too much about it.
posted by Bunglegirl at 10:24 PM on June 10, 2011
Premarital sex is a pretty big deal to a whole lotta people in this country. Get to know some Christians and Muslims in the southern U.S. Try talking to some Catholics, Methodists, and Baptists in your local community.
I don't want to be mean or join the pile-on, but this is naive. My mother was a conservative Baptist Christian. She and my father had a girl at 17, which they gave up for adoption. They were not married until several years later. They had me 10 years later, presumably after they discovered birth control. The point is: people can say whatever they like. The fact is, once you meet the right person, the things you've said mean very little in the face of powerful urges to do otherwise. It's obvious to me that you've never met the right person, otherwise this wouldn't come as a surprise.
I'm one of those high-achieving virgins-until-20s guys, and ever since I had sex for the first time, I've expected sex after about a month of dating, if not earlier. Refusing to have sex would be a huge dealbreaker--though not one I've ever actually encountered. I've known only a couple of people who didn't have premarital sex, and they were both very religious. Even then, I'm not sure I believe them. My mom was very religious, after all.
posted by smorange at 11:46 PM on June 10, 2011
I don't want to be mean or join the pile-on, but this is naive. My mother was a conservative Baptist Christian. She and my father had a girl at 17, which they gave up for adoption. They were not married until several years later. They had me 10 years later, presumably after they discovered birth control. The point is: people can say whatever they like. The fact is, once you meet the right person, the things you've said mean very little in the face of powerful urges to do otherwise. It's obvious to me that you've never met the right person, otherwise this wouldn't come as a surprise.
I'm one of those high-achieving virgins-until-20s guys, and ever since I had sex for the first time, I've expected sex after about a month of dating, if not earlier. Refusing to have sex would be a huge dealbreaker--though not one I've ever actually encountered. I've known only a couple of people who didn't have premarital sex, and they were both very religious. Even then, I'm not sure I believe them. My mom was very religious, after all.
posted by smorange at 11:46 PM on June 10, 2011
Huh. I don't know. There is something about your post I can sense, but can't quite put my finger on. It might be how it was written, or what I read into it. What I do think, though, is that you should ask yourself is why you want to amass this collection of guys, this assortment of experiences, this particular approach to exploring the world.
For reals. Why do you want this? What do you think your life would look like if you had it? What is preventing you from obtaining whatever it is you want?
I guess what stands out is that, at least from your post, it seems as though you are unclear about your own motivations, your own desires. Maybe if you identify what those really are, you'll be able to answer your own questions.
posted by vivid postcard at 12:09 AM on June 11, 2011
For reals. Why do you want this? What do you think your life would look like if you had it? What is preventing you from obtaining whatever it is you want?
I guess what stands out is that, at least from your post, it seems as though you are unclear about your own motivations, your own desires. Maybe if you identify what those really are, you'll be able to answer your own questions.
posted by vivid postcard at 12:09 AM on June 11, 2011
If I were transformed into you, I would ditch the abstinence thing and date casually to see how it goes.
This is a shitty thing to say. I'm sorry, and I'm out of this thread after this, but I can't believe that someone's sexual decisions, which is to say the deepest and most profound decision the OP will probably ever make, is being treated like "Oh, just ditch your beliefs, duuuude!" For fuck's sake, she might as well have just gone to the booty club and asked her question there! That's about the answer she would have gotten.
posted by deep thought sunstar at 12:31 AM on June 11, 2011
This is a shitty thing to say. I'm sorry, and I'm out of this thread after this, but I can't believe that someone's sexual decisions, which is to say the deepest and most profound decision the OP will probably ever make, is being treated like "Oh, just ditch your beliefs, duuuude!" For fuck's sake, she might as well have just gone to the booty club and asked her question there! That's about the answer she would have gotten.
posted by deep thought sunstar at 12:31 AM on June 11, 2011
This is a shitty thing to say. I'm sorry, and I'm out of this thread after this
I think I must not have contextualized what I wrote very well, and I apologize for that. I didn't mean it flippantly, like "la la what you believe is inconsequential". I meant in all seriousness that the post seems to me to have a strong subtext about desire for sexual experience and a lot of fascination with the type of casual sex you can have when you're young and not tied down. I quite literally meant "what I would do in your place, after reflection, for reasonable reasons". Obviously, I did not say that in a clear or respectful manner. I should have waited to post until I wasn't sleepy and could say what I meant. (I imagine we'll still disagree, but I'd rather not cause disagreements because of poor control over my tone/apparent flippancy.)
posted by Frowner at 12:45 AM on June 11, 2011
I think I must not have contextualized what I wrote very well, and I apologize for that. I didn't mean it flippantly, like "la la what you believe is inconsequential". I meant in all seriousness that the post seems to me to have a strong subtext about desire for sexual experience and a lot of fascination with the type of casual sex you can have when you're young and not tied down. I quite literally meant "what I would do in your place, after reflection, for reasonable reasons". Obviously, I did not say that in a clear or respectful manner. I should have waited to post until I wasn't sleepy and could say what I meant. (I imagine we'll still disagree, but I'd rather not cause disagreements because of poor control over my tone/apparent flippancy.)
posted by Frowner at 12:45 AM on June 11, 2011
2. Will I end up with a guy that's too "nice" and not freaky enough if I don't give off a more sexual and less good girl vibe?
No. You can't tell what someone likes in bed just by looking at them - the nerdy nice guy I dated was just as kinky as the alpha dude. Your best bet here is to just talk about likes/dislikes/etc.
If you want to go out and date alpha-men types, do it. The relationship may not last long if you aren't compatible re: dating for sex, but it doesn't sound like you want to date those types long-term anyway.
If you decide not to, only you'll know if you're the type who will regret it. Some people regret not dating more when they were younger and others don't care one way or the other.
posted by biochemist at 12:54 AM on June 11, 2011
No. You can't tell what someone likes in bed just by looking at them - the nerdy nice guy I dated was just as kinky as the alpha dude. Your best bet here is to just talk about likes/dislikes/etc.
If you want to go out and date alpha-men types, do it. The relationship may not last long if you aren't compatible re: dating for sex, but it doesn't sound like you want to date those types long-term anyway.
If you decide not to, only you'll know if you're the type who will regret it. Some people regret not dating more when they were younger and others don't care one way or the other.
posted by biochemist at 12:54 AM on June 11, 2011
I think I must not have contextualized what I wrote very well, and I apologize for that. I didn't mean it flippantly, like "la la what you believe is inconsequential". I meant in all seriousness that the post seems to me to have a strong subtext about desire for sexual experience and a lot of fascination with the type of casual sex you can have when you're young and not tied down. I quite literally meant "what I would do in your place, after reflection, for reasonable reasons".
I see what you mean now, and I too apologize for having been confrontational about it. I did sort of cherry-pick one of your sentences, and I'm sorry for being antagonistic and for derailing the thread.
posted by deep thought sunstar at 1:26 AM on June 11, 2011
I see what you mean now, and I too apologize for having been confrontational about it. I did sort of cherry-pick one of your sentences, and I'm sorry for being antagonistic and for derailing the thread.
posted by deep thought sunstar at 1:26 AM on June 11, 2011
Ya know, relationships are a bit like that initially, in some senses. This guy has a great blog post regarding that.
That guy is wrong. Yes, I'm sure he does this for a living and has all sorts of experience at that, but as a rule: people who make a living out of spreading the belief that men are like this and women are like that, and this is the Big Secret about relationships which nobody will explain to you except, conveniently, for them via their blog/site/book/seminar course, are peddling hugely simplified tripe.
I mean, how many times do you see women's magazines claiming "10 secrets men won't tell you about commitment!" or "What he REALLY thinks about your body"? There's a huge, huge market for this idea that the only reason heterosexual relationships are complicated is because there's one formula you need to follow composed of simple secrets about the other gender nobody's ever told you.
I get why it's really tempting, especially when you don't have too much of your own experience to draw from, to embrace the idea that there's experts out there who can Solve It All. But in reality, any solution that works for you is going to rely on you, and who you are and what you want. Getting yourself tangled up in these simplified rules (like that there are 'good girls' and 'sexual' ones, but never the twain shall meet, as far as men are concerned) is just going to make that trickier. You want to wear a miniskirt and go clubbing? Do it, without worrying about what kind of message it'll send to men you don't know. You want to dress more conservatively and stay home to cook? Do it, without worrying about attracting men who aren't going to be sexually adventurous. Living the way you want doesn't make you a prude, and that's not a helpful word to be using about yourself, even half-jokingly.
You're probably never going to look back and regret not 'living it up' in your 20s, where 'living it up' is defined as doing things you aren't really interested in. You're a lot more likely to regret spending your 20s doing stuff that you didn't much like, just because you got the idea that that's what being young is all about. You're not living according to someone else's formula here.
posted by Catseye at 3:31 AM on June 11, 2011
That guy is wrong. Yes, I'm sure he does this for a living and has all sorts of experience at that, but as a rule: people who make a living out of spreading the belief that men are like this and women are like that, and this is the Big Secret about relationships which nobody will explain to you except, conveniently, for them via their blog/site/book/seminar course, are peddling hugely simplified tripe.
I mean, how many times do you see women's magazines claiming "10 secrets men won't tell you about commitment!" or "What he REALLY thinks about your body"? There's a huge, huge market for this idea that the only reason heterosexual relationships are complicated is because there's one formula you need to follow composed of simple secrets about the other gender nobody's ever told you.
I get why it's really tempting, especially when you don't have too much of your own experience to draw from, to embrace the idea that there's experts out there who can Solve It All. But in reality, any solution that works for you is going to rely on you, and who you are and what you want. Getting yourself tangled up in these simplified rules (like that there are 'good girls' and 'sexual' ones, but never the twain shall meet, as far as men are concerned) is just going to make that trickier. You want to wear a miniskirt and go clubbing? Do it, without worrying about what kind of message it'll send to men you don't know. You want to dress more conservatively and stay home to cook? Do it, without worrying about attracting men who aren't going to be sexually adventurous. Living the way you want doesn't make you a prude, and that's not a helpful word to be using about yourself, even half-jokingly.
You're probably never going to look back and regret not 'living it up' in your 20s, where 'living it up' is defined as doing things you aren't really interested in. You're a lot more likely to regret spending your 20s doing stuff that you didn't much like, just because you got the idea that that's what being young is all about. You're not living according to someone else's formula here.
posted by Catseye at 3:31 AM on June 11, 2011
I don't want to be written off as someone who isn't fun-loving or wouldn't be cool to date because of how I present myself.
You have the ability to present yourself as fun-loving and cool no matter what your social/religious/political values are. Outside of the context of casual sex (which you aren't looking for), when people are sizing you up as fun or unfun, your personality and demeanor are way more important than any external accoutrements. You can be fun and cool while wearing a sweater set and orthopedic shoes, and someone else might be boring and unlikeable while wearing a mini skirt and stilettoes. You could be an adventurous and exciting Baptist, and someone else might be a prudish and reclusive atheist. As others have already said, your ability to attract the kind of men you want will come from being you, not from trying on different facades.
One of the most genuinely fun people I know is conservative and uber-Christian (and I'm an atheist liberal, so I have no ideological bias in evaluating her fun quotient). She doesn't drink or smoke, doesn't cuss, and wouldn't be inclined to dress provocatively even if you gave her a lifetime subscription to Cosmo, but she has a "life of the party" personality -- like the world's friendliest summer camp activities director on a sugar high, but without any obnoxiousness -- and she attracts friends from a variety of social groups and backgrounds.
Incidentally, she is also one of the few people I know who can say with a straight face that they were a virgin on their wedding night, so I'll add my voice to the crowd confirming that premarital sex is "the norm," and has been for ages, even among people who proclaim strict morals and strong religious beliefs. That doesn't mean that people in my grandmother's day were randomly hooking up for one-night stands (although some were), but it was not uncommon for them to explore their natural urges, especially in dating/courting relationships. There's a reason why phrases like "shotgun wedding" and "they had to get married" are part of the collective history of life before reliable birth control became available, and it's not because people were chaste.
That said, your personal sexual values are perfectly okay and even commendable, especially when you're focusing on your educational goals and wanting to avoid risks like STDs and pregnancy. It's also okay to want a future spouse who respects and shares your values, but it seems like you've set up a version of the classic madonna/whore dichotomy in your mind, and that could become a problem. You might increase your odds of finding a compatible partner if you allow for some middle ground. Taking a personal stance against casual sex makes sense in your current situation, but setting a time-frame for greenlighting sex in the future might end up feeling a bit stifling in the context of a long-term relationship (and what if you have a partner who agrees to abstain from sex before marriage, but you don't have a mutually agreeable definition of what constitutes "sex" -- what if one of you thinks that only penis-in-vagina sex should be off-limits before marriage, and the other thinks that's not strict enough?).
Setting arbitrary rules for yourself on things like clothing and social activities might seem like a good way of sticking to your values, but it's not very practical, and you'll make yourself crazy if you only have inflexible moral metrics with which to evaluate yourself and others. You'll be much healthier and happier if you allow yourself the freedom to grow and change and be.
posted by amyms at 6:04 AM on June 11, 2011
You have the ability to present yourself as fun-loving and cool no matter what your social/religious/political values are. Outside of the context of casual sex (which you aren't looking for), when people are sizing you up as fun or unfun, your personality and demeanor are way more important than any external accoutrements. You can be fun and cool while wearing a sweater set and orthopedic shoes, and someone else might be boring and unlikeable while wearing a mini skirt and stilettoes. You could be an adventurous and exciting Baptist, and someone else might be a prudish and reclusive atheist. As others have already said, your ability to attract the kind of men you want will come from being you, not from trying on different facades.
One of the most genuinely fun people I know is conservative and uber-Christian (and I'm an atheist liberal, so I have no ideological bias in evaluating her fun quotient). She doesn't drink or smoke, doesn't cuss, and wouldn't be inclined to dress provocatively even if you gave her a lifetime subscription to Cosmo, but she has a "life of the party" personality -- like the world's friendliest summer camp activities director on a sugar high, but without any obnoxiousness -- and she attracts friends from a variety of social groups and backgrounds.
Incidentally, she is also one of the few people I know who can say with a straight face that they were a virgin on their wedding night, so I'll add my voice to the crowd confirming that premarital sex is "the norm," and has been for ages, even among people who proclaim strict morals and strong religious beliefs. That doesn't mean that people in my grandmother's day were randomly hooking up for one-night stands (although some were), but it was not uncommon for them to explore their natural urges, especially in dating/courting relationships. There's a reason why phrases like "shotgun wedding" and "they had to get married" are part of the collective history of life before reliable birth control became available, and it's not because people were chaste.
That said, your personal sexual values are perfectly okay and even commendable, especially when you're focusing on your educational goals and wanting to avoid risks like STDs and pregnancy. It's also okay to want a future spouse who respects and shares your values, but it seems like you've set up a version of the classic madonna/whore dichotomy in your mind, and that could become a problem. You might increase your odds of finding a compatible partner if you allow for some middle ground. Taking a personal stance against casual sex makes sense in your current situation, but setting a time-frame for greenlighting sex in the future might end up feeling a bit stifling in the context of a long-term relationship (and what if you have a partner who agrees to abstain from sex before marriage, but you don't have a mutually agreeable definition of what constitutes "sex" -- what if one of you thinks that only penis-in-vagina sex should be off-limits before marriage, and the other thinks that's not strict enough?).
Setting arbitrary rules for yourself on things like clothing and social activities might seem like a good way of sticking to your values, but it's not very practical, and you'll make yourself crazy if you only have inflexible moral metrics with which to evaluate yourself and others. You'll be much healthier and happier if you allow yourself the freedom to grow and change and be.
posted by amyms at 6:04 AM on June 11, 2011
Most other posters have said what I would say about your post, so I'll just say this.
I've hooked up with the alpha-male guys and I've hooked up with the shy nerdy guys, and generally the big, blowhard alphas were also the most boring and vanilla in bed and the quietest dudes were the ones most willing to explore. Of course there were one or two exceptions but in my experience there is something to the joke that the guy who grows up without a lot of dating options is the one who spends a lot of time getting freakier and freakier in his fantasies.
However--I apologize, but I'll add another voice to the crowd that finding someone who's going to be abstinent for years until marriage AND shares your freakiness will be a pretty difficult task and you'll have to go through a lot of candidates. Falling "madly in love", the sort of love that makes going without sexual intimacy worth it, not having a crush but love--takes months and months, and most people are not going to be OK going abstinent for more than the first few weeks of serious dating (and that's pushing it). I do know friends who stayed abstinent until marriage, but that's because they got married within six months of beginning to date.
posted by Anonymous at 6:37 AM on June 11, 2011
I've hooked up with the alpha-male guys and I've hooked up with the shy nerdy guys, and generally the big, blowhard alphas were also the most boring and vanilla in bed and the quietest dudes were the ones most willing to explore. Of course there were one or two exceptions but in my experience there is something to the joke that the guy who grows up without a lot of dating options is the one who spends a lot of time getting freakier and freakier in his fantasies.
However--I apologize, but I'll add another voice to the crowd that finding someone who's going to be abstinent for years until marriage AND shares your freakiness will be a pretty difficult task and you'll have to go through a lot of candidates. Falling "madly in love", the sort of love that makes going without sexual intimacy worth it, not having a crush but love--takes months and months, and most people are not going to be OK going abstinent for more than the first few weeks of serious dating (and that's pushing it). I do know friends who stayed abstinent until marriage, but that's because they got married within six months of beginning to date.
posted by Anonymous at 6:37 AM on June 11, 2011
Abstinence from sexual intercourse is a 100% effective birth control method, so if you really don't want to take any chance then that's the only way, especially with your pro-life stance. However, PIV sex is just one of many sexual activities you can do with your partner. You may very well find someone who shares the same fear regarding pregnancy and would be happy to do everything but PIV until you're both ready.
posted by lucia_engel at 7:15 AM on June 11, 2011
posted by lucia_engel at 7:15 AM on June 11, 2011
Although it's a different issue and question, you remind me a little of this poster/post:
http://ask.metafilter.com/54044/How-do-I-know-if-a-prospective-manfriend-is-the-type-to-um-pull-my-hair
posted by tacoma1 at 7:39 AM on June 11, 2011
http://ask.metafilter.com/54044/How-do-I-know-if-a-prospective-manfriend-is-the-type-to-um-pull-my-hair
posted by tacoma1 at 7:39 AM on June 11, 2011
>>Should have mentioned that I dated a guy for almost a year, after which I discovered that there were qualities that I didn't know I wanted in a guy that my first boyfriend didn't have. This is where my itch to date and maximize my potential in attracting all kinds of men stems from.
This explains a lot, I think.
This type of regret is normal, and it's hard to listen to people telling you to shrug it off because you're young, even though you are.
Reading between the lines a little bit, maybe your boyfriend was kind of a wimp (and, more of a stretch, but also too unwilling to take charge sexually?), and it took you too long to realize he was a wimp and/or you didn't want one. You can find guys with all different kinds of personalities who aren't Jersey Shore-type douches at a club, I promise.
This is actually really important. Not whether you look for guys at a club, but that you realize that all guys are individuals and unique. The only way to learn what you're looking for and what you're not looking for in a relationship is to move on to the next one and learn from that one as well, but again, there are tons of different guys out there are who into tons of different things and have extremely varied ways of relating to the world and to other people. You can meet them anywhere, and you don't need to go for superficial variance like whether they're all up on girls at clubs to find variety in these important personality traits you're looking for.
(And yeah, most guys aren't going to wait two years for sex. That doesn't mean you have to buy into a three date rule or anything, but after a couple months and exclusivity? If you're into each other, you're both going to want to fuck. Be prepared and have a plan re: condoms/birth control before this happens.)
posted by J. Wilson at 7:48 AM on June 11, 2011
This explains a lot, I think.
This type of regret is normal, and it's hard to listen to people telling you to shrug it off because you're young, even though you are.
Reading between the lines a little bit, maybe your boyfriend was kind of a wimp (and, more of a stretch, but also too unwilling to take charge sexually?), and it took you too long to realize he was a wimp and/or you didn't want one. You can find guys with all different kinds of personalities who aren't Jersey Shore-type douches at a club, I promise.
This is actually really important. Not whether you look for guys at a club, but that you realize that all guys are individuals and unique. The only way to learn what you're looking for and what you're not looking for in a relationship is to move on to the next one and learn from that one as well, but again, there are tons of different guys out there are who into tons of different things and have extremely varied ways of relating to the world and to other people. You can meet them anywhere, and you don't need to go for superficial variance like whether they're all up on girls at clubs to find variety in these important personality traits you're looking for.
(And yeah, most guys aren't going to wait two years for sex. That doesn't mean you have to buy into a three date rule or anything, but after a couple months and exclusivity? If you're into each other, you're both going to want to fuck. Be prepared and have a plan re: condoms/birth control before this happens.)
posted by J. Wilson at 7:48 AM on June 11, 2011
[Comment removed - OP, replying is fine but feel free to leave the sarcasm elsewhere thanks.]
posted by jessamyn at 7:55 AM on June 11, 2011
posted by jessamyn at 7:55 AM on June 11, 2011
Man, hanging out with the religious people at any ivy league university sure skews your perspective, like eyebrows mcgee said. We must have all been sexually repressed nerds according to you guys! Having sex within the first few weeks truly wasn't the norm within this social circle. Perhaps when you're older and start seriously dating, this changes.
The people you're interested in dating--"alpha males"--are not going to feel the way that "religious people at an ivy league university" do. If you go to a club, you're priming yourself to be taken advantage of in one way or another, especially if you're seeking a pushy guy who oozes charisma. I'd do some reading about pick-up artist culture at least, so you can learn to recognize some of the more insidious and calculated ways that guys who "work a room" approach doing so. Because you might find yourself in a compromising position with someone pushy who doesn't respect your values, but knows how to wear down your resistance.
I mean, you've told us yourself that you don't have much experience, even in a platonic sense, with guys. If you're really interested in dating widely to experience lots of people, I sure hope you're taking those nice guys up on their offers and going out with them. Because otherwise, it sounds like you're really looking for experiences that verify your skewed and outdated views on gender.
And I realize you might bristle against my frankness (though, really, you're overmoderating here, being very defensive, and reading in a lot of malicious intent where there isn't any, but please at least listen to St. Alia, who is conservative and religious, like you are, and seems to think you're playing with fire a bit, too), but I think it's better that you get piled-on via metafilter rather than learn the hard way that the people who act like alpha males at clubs very rarely truly respect women.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:58 AM on June 11, 2011
The people you're interested in dating--"alpha males"--are not going to feel the way that "religious people at an ivy league university" do. If you go to a club, you're priming yourself to be taken advantage of in one way or another, especially if you're seeking a pushy guy who oozes charisma. I'd do some reading about pick-up artist culture at least, so you can learn to recognize some of the more insidious and calculated ways that guys who "work a room" approach doing so. Because you might find yourself in a compromising position with someone pushy who doesn't respect your values, but knows how to wear down your resistance.
I mean, you've told us yourself that you don't have much experience, even in a platonic sense, with guys. If you're really interested in dating widely to experience lots of people, I sure hope you're taking those nice guys up on their offers and going out with them. Because otherwise, it sounds like you're really looking for experiences that verify your skewed and outdated views on gender.
And I realize you might bristle against my frankness (though, really, you're overmoderating here, being very defensive, and reading in a lot of malicious intent where there isn't any, but please at least listen to St. Alia, who is conservative and religious, like you are, and seems to think you're playing with fire a bit, too), but I think it's better that you get piled-on via metafilter rather than learn the hard way that the people who act like alpha males at clubs very rarely truly respect women.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:58 AM on June 11, 2011
I tend to think that people who are happy postponing sex for long periods of time either:
1) aren't really emotionally ready for sex
This is fine. Lots of people are late bloomers. There's so much in the world besides sex and if you know (or even if you don't know but just seem to be an old virgin) that dealing with the physical and emotional risks of a sexual relationship isn't something you're up for now, that's absolutely worth respecting - even if it means that you're a virgin at 21 or 27 or 30 or whatever time is considered hideously out of date to still be a virgin OR
2) aren't that into sex
Either because they just don't have such a strong libido, or because they have serious conflicts about their own sexuality or desires.
If you have a high sex sex drive and are looking for someone else who also does - I would not be seriously looking at the self-selecting dating pool of men who are happy to go for two years without any sex with the person whom they love and think they may want to be with forever.
I would be open to guys who for one reason or another hadn't been in many or any sexual relationships before, but who have positive attitudes towards masturbation, sex, their own body and sexuality, and perhaps most importantly, towards women who have sex even outside of marriage.
What I wish I could convince you to do is just table the issue for a bit.
Your decision not to be having sex at this particular stage in your life makes all the sense in the world. But there is no reason to translate that into a commitment, taken now, to not have sex until you are engaged after at least two years of dating.
Now: your clothes have nothing to do with it. Nada nothing zip. I'm sure it would be slightly more challenging to live the stereotypical college sex/bar/scene life if you regularly wore a hijab or even the long skirts and long sleeves that orthodox Jews wear. But I'm absolutely positive that women do, and that you could if you wanted.
Wear what makes you happy, spend time with people who make you happy, 'send messages' with your voice (and, if necessary, your body and strength) and not your dress - those kinds of messages tend to be understood and responded to much more clearly anyway.
posted by Salamandrous at 8:08 AM on June 11, 2011
1) aren't really emotionally ready for sex
This is fine. Lots of people are late bloomers. There's so much in the world besides sex and if you know (or even if you don't know but just seem to be an old virgin) that dealing with the physical and emotional risks of a sexual relationship isn't something you're up for now, that's absolutely worth respecting - even if it means that you're a virgin at 21 or 27 or 30 or whatever time is considered hideously out of date to still be a virgin OR
2) aren't that into sex
Either because they just don't have such a strong libido, or because they have serious conflicts about their own sexuality or desires.
If you have a high sex sex drive and are looking for someone else who also does - I would not be seriously looking at the self-selecting dating pool of men who are happy to go for two years without any sex with the person whom they love and think they may want to be with forever.
I would be open to guys who for one reason or another hadn't been in many or any sexual relationships before, but who have positive attitudes towards masturbation, sex, their own body and sexuality, and perhaps most importantly, towards women who have sex even outside of marriage.
What I wish I could convince you to do is just table the issue for a bit.
Your decision not to be having sex at this particular stage in your life makes all the sense in the world. But there is no reason to translate that into a commitment, taken now, to not have sex until you are engaged after at least two years of dating.
Now: your clothes have nothing to do with it. Nada nothing zip. I'm sure it would be slightly more challenging to live the stereotypical college sex/bar/scene life if you regularly wore a hijab or even the long skirts and long sleeves that orthodox Jews wear. But I'm absolutely positive that women do, and that you could if you wanted.
Wear what makes you happy, spend time with people who make you happy, 'send messages' with your voice (and, if necessary, your body and strength) and not your dress - those kinds of messages tend to be understood and responded to much more clearly anyway.
posted by Salamandrous at 8:08 AM on June 11, 2011
There's a tone going on in this thread that's really bothering me, so I want to reiterate what I said before. OP, while it is true that the majority of people do engage in premarital sex, that in no way means that YOU must do so.
The whole idea that men will expect sex and it will be a "dealbreaker" if you don't want to have sex is kind of based in reality, I guess, because there are a lot of people who feel that way. However, YOU may seriously for real not want to have sex, and you DO NOT HAVE TO have sex if you don't want to, ever. Just because someone is male and wants to have sex doesn't mean that you don't have a say in it. If you run into that situation, perhaps that person is not the best partner for you. Maybe you'll be in the 3% who do, indeed, wait.
I just don't like the underlying idea that the OP is going to have to compromise herself and have sex if she doesn't want to -- or that she's too inexperienced or whatever to know what she wants. OP, if you change your mind, that's totally fine. But it's ALSO ok if you do NOT change your mind. You should ultimately be with someone who's on the same page with you here. Sure, if you don't want to have sex, it's possible that will narrow your pool of potential suitors, but if that issue is important to you, it shouldn't matter.
In general, I think the best advice you're getting is not to go into any dating situation with preconceived notions, including both arbitrary time limits on sex/engagement/etc AND the idea that eventually your guy is going to demand sex and you'll just have to give in or something.
Also, the upshot of your question seems to be "Should I change myself to be more appealing to men?!" and the answer is no. Just do you and allow things to fall into place.
posted by pupstocks at 8:14 AM on June 11, 2011
The whole idea that men will expect sex and it will be a "dealbreaker" if you don't want to have sex is kind of based in reality, I guess, because there are a lot of people who feel that way. However, YOU may seriously for real not want to have sex, and you DO NOT HAVE TO have sex if you don't want to, ever. Just because someone is male and wants to have sex doesn't mean that you don't have a say in it. If you run into that situation, perhaps that person is not the best partner for you. Maybe you'll be in the 3% who do, indeed, wait.
I just don't like the underlying idea that the OP is going to have to compromise herself and have sex if she doesn't want to -- or that she's too inexperienced or whatever to know what she wants. OP, if you change your mind, that's totally fine. But it's ALSO ok if you do NOT change your mind. You should ultimately be with someone who's on the same page with you here. Sure, if you don't want to have sex, it's possible that will narrow your pool of potential suitors, but if that issue is important to you, it shouldn't matter.
In general, I think the best advice you're getting is not to go into any dating situation with preconceived notions, including both arbitrary time limits on sex/engagement/etc AND the idea that eventually your guy is going to demand sex and you'll just have to give in or something.
Also, the upshot of your question seems to be "Should I change myself to be more appealing to men?!" and the answer is no. Just do you and allow things to fall into place.
posted by pupstocks at 8:14 AM on June 11, 2011
I can identify with you, sunnychef88, and understand your concerns and questions. I was a later bloomer myself and I *never* slept with anyone unless I KNEW FOR A FACT they were in love with me because I was so insecure, which stemmed from religious programming that girls who had sex (GIRLS! not guys) prior to marriage were whores. I got the whole speech from my parents about how they were virgins on their wedding night and I should be, too. It was horrible, because what I experienced was that my friends all had sex starting in high school. To qualify this, I went to a very selective university and I have a Ph.D. now, so I'm in sort of that high-achieving demographic, though not an attorney.
That being said, I threw all the mores I'd been taught in my small, southern, religious town to the wind and *went out and experienced life.* I partied, met all kinds of people, did drugs (an interest of mine, as my doctorate is in how drugs affect the brain - you may not be so inclined), moved all over the country, and learned, learned learned. I'm really echoing what others are saying about garnering life experience and that being valuable.
I probably swung the pendulum to the extreme other side as rebellion from a strict Christian upbringing, but I'm going to have to agree with the other posters that getting to know YOU is the most important thing you need to do. Step back from any authority you've had and think this: "I'm a unique and valuable person. What do *I* believe? What do *I* like to do? What do *I* want from life?" It's really HARD when you've been super programmed by conservative religion. I wish I could tell you step-by-step how to do this, but I can't. I did it by randomly moving and encountering people from all over the world and it gave me an incredibly diverse perspective and frame of reference. Basically, there ain't just one way to skin a cat. And that's important.
Remember that every life is unique and the path that others take *isn't necessarily right for you.* Once, a more enlightened friend of mine said, "You're an oak tree. Why are you trying to be a pine tree?" If you understand that, you'll know what I mean. Please memail me if you want to talk! I totally get it.
I was engaged in my 20's and my fiance died suddenly. I didn't meet my husband until I was 36. Now I am ridiculously happy and he's not the profile I would have predicted I'd want. Be open to life. That's the secret to....everything, really.
posted by Punctual at 8:22 AM on June 11, 2011
That being said, I threw all the mores I'd been taught in my small, southern, religious town to the wind and *went out and experienced life.* I partied, met all kinds of people, did drugs (an interest of mine, as my doctorate is in how drugs affect the brain - you may not be so inclined), moved all over the country, and learned, learned learned. I'm really echoing what others are saying about garnering life experience and that being valuable.
I probably swung the pendulum to the extreme other side as rebellion from a strict Christian upbringing, but I'm going to have to agree with the other posters that getting to know YOU is the most important thing you need to do. Step back from any authority you've had and think this: "I'm a unique and valuable person. What do *I* believe? What do *I* like to do? What do *I* want from life?" It's really HARD when you've been super programmed by conservative religion. I wish I could tell you step-by-step how to do this, but I can't. I did it by randomly moving and encountering people from all over the world and it gave me an incredibly diverse perspective and frame of reference. Basically, there ain't just one way to skin a cat. And that's important.
Remember that every life is unique and the path that others take *isn't necessarily right for you.* Once, a more enlightened friend of mine said, "You're an oak tree. Why are you trying to be a pine tree?" If you understand that, you'll know what I mean. Please memail me if you want to talk! I totally get it.
I was engaged in my 20's and my fiance died suddenly. I didn't meet my husband until I was 36. Now I am ridiculously happy and he's not the profile I would have predicted I'd want. Be open to life. That's the secret to....everything, really.
posted by Punctual at 8:22 AM on June 11, 2011
For a window into what your fellow citizens are doing in the bedroom (and the living room, and the family car, and the motel, and...), you can download the entire National Survey of Sexual Health and Behavior (for free!). It's 140 pages of peer-reviewed, highly-respected DATA about contemporary sexual practices in the US, with lots of tables and charts.
Knowing what other people are doing doesn't have to have any impact on what you do, but it might help you provide some context for those choices. Some of the data is good (people are, by and large, having varied sexual lives; young people are pretty good about using condoms), and some of it is not so good (check out the table on page 129, and notice how few people are using condoms in casual situations, for example). And the news is good for your hopes of having lots of wild and crazy sex at some point -- note the percentages of people in your age bracket who are having oral and anal sex, for example.
Honestly, I think real-life sex is more complex than it is being made to sound by some commenters here. Yes, most people have had pre-marital sex. Hell, you have said explicitly that you are ok with pre-marital sex, just not pre-engagement sex. And many people, particularly as they get out of their teens and into their twenties and thirties, expect to be having sex fairly early in a relationship, rather than after years of dating. But if you look at the data, most people aren't having all that much sex, and single people have a lot less sex than married or cohabitating people. So what you are describing is well within the bounds of "normal" sexual behavior in the modern US -- what is different is that you are making the decision explicit, and mostly people do so implicitly (by dating casually but not allowing the relationships to develop to the point that sex would be expected, for example).
posted by Forktine at 8:34 AM on June 11, 2011
Knowing what other people are doing doesn't have to have any impact on what you do, but it might help you provide some context for those choices. Some of the data is good (people are, by and large, having varied sexual lives; young people are pretty good about using condoms), and some of it is not so good (check out the table on page 129, and notice how few people are using condoms in casual situations, for example). And the news is good for your hopes of having lots of wild and crazy sex at some point -- note the percentages of people in your age bracket who are having oral and anal sex, for example.
Honestly, I think real-life sex is more complex than it is being made to sound by some commenters here. Yes, most people have had pre-marital sex. Hell, you have said explicitly that you are ok with pre-marital sex, just not pre-engagement sex. And many people, particularly as they get out of their teens and into their twenties and thirties, expect to be having sex fairly early in a relationship, rather than after years of dating. But if you look at the data, most people aren't having all that much sex, and single people have a lot less sex than married or cohabitating people. So what you are describing is well within the bounds of "normal" sexual behavior in the modern US -- what is different is that you are making the decision explicit, and mostly people do so implicitly (by dating casually but not allowing the relationships to develop to the point that sex would be expected, for example).
posted by Forktine at 8:34 AM on June 11, 2011
I am around your age and come from a similar high-achieving background and shared some of your concerns and thoughts about dating - well, it changed for me as I traveled abroad and explored who I was and thought very hard about what I wanted.
But the problem was - I thought way too hard about relationships and men in particular. I was overanalyzing everything to the n-th degree. So my advice (and it's not much), is just to explore yourself. For me, that was buying a different piece of jewelry and wondering what kind of person I could be with it (a particularly edgy, rock-star piece that was So Not Me). I was intrigued by that piece of jewelry, though, and that alone is worth exploring.
Same goes for men.
You and I have the benefit of youth. We are breaking out of the cold stone to become the magnificent sculpture we're going to be, and that means trying different things on for size and seeing - ah, I'm not that, I should grow a little here, WOWZA THAT WAS COOL, ehhhh - so not for me... And so forth. Once I realized that my incredibly brainy self couldn't even begin to fathom the complexity of humans, of men and women, of relationships, I just let it flow like the river washing over my feet, and stopped analyzing the stream itself.
I started letting my ideas go about "X Types of Men Want This, Y Type of Men Want Suzie Homemakers" and assuming that I had to either bake cookies while wearing pearls and a poodle skirt OR be Angelina Jolie in pleather. You know, you can TOTALLY do both in the same 12-hour span. I thought I had to fit myself in to some sort of box (like you said - "I'm feminine and dress conservatively (think J. Crew)") and that I had to find the men who liked my box. You're YOU, inexorable and strong and beautiful and shining. You are a collection of experiences that no one else on the planet has had or will ever have again after you return to dust. You are unique and defy every single label we try to stick on people - labels we stick on to try to grasp and understand each other, when we are beyond understanding. Be yourself. If you want to try and flirt with the alpha male on the club scene, go right ahead, and don't worry about "oh, he's going to want to have sex with me!" Just let it be, let what happens happen (and maybe guard your drink, obviously.). Be yourself and let men be themselves. See yourself as the fascinating young woman you are, the protagonist of your own novel, a woman who chooses to peek around the corner fearlessly, curious, bold. You are brave. Guard your heart, love yourself, protect yourself, and value yourself. Toss the man/woman labels like yesterday's trends and see people as people, not alpha males, not beta males, not Suzie Homemaker, not Hot Platinum Blonde, just people with their own quirks and desires and yearnings.
Go forth and conquer. The world is yours for the taking. You don't need analysis. Just jump right in.
posted by Dukat at 9:36 AM on June 11, 2011
But the problem was - I thought way too hard about relationships and men in particular. I was overanalyzing everything to the n-th degree. So my advice (and it's not much), is just to explore yourself. For me, that was buying a different piece of jewelry and wondering what kind of person I could be with it (a particularly edgy, rock-star piece that was So Not Me). I was intrigued by that piece of jewelry, though, and that alone is worth exploring.
Same goes for men.
You and I have the benefit of youth. We are breaking out of the cold stone to become the magnificent sculpture we're going to be, and that means trying different things on for size and seeing - ah, I'm not that, I should grow a little here, WOWZA THAT WAS COOL, ehhhh - so not for me... And so forth. Once I realized that my incredibly brainy self couldn't even begin to fathom the complexity of humans, of men and women, of relationships, I just let it flow like the river washing over my feet, and stopped analyzing the stream itself.
I started letting my ideas go about "X Types of Men Want This, Y Type of Men Want Suzie Homemakers" and assuming that I had to either bake cookies while wearing pearls and a poodle skirt OR be Angelina Jolie in pleather. You know, you can TOTALLY do both in the same 12-hour span. I thought I had to fit myself in to some sort of box (like you said - "I'm feminine and dress conservatively (think J. Crew)") and that I had to find the men who liked my box. You're YOU, inexorable and strong and beautiful and shining. You are a collection of experiences that no one else on the planet has had or will ever have again after you return to dust. You are unique and defy every single label we try to stick on people - labels we stick on to try to grasp and understand each other, when we are beyond understanding. Be yourself. If you want to try and flirt with the alpha male on the club scene, go right ahead, and don't worry about "oh, he's going to want to have sex with me!" Just let it be, let what happens happen (and maybe guard your drink, obviously.). Be yourself and let men be themselves. See yourself as the fascinating young woman you are, the protagonist of your own novel, a woman who chooses to peek around the corner fearlessly, curious, bold. You are brave. Guard your heart, love yourself, protect yourself, and value yourself. Toss the man/woman labels like yesterday's trends and see people as people, not alpha males, not beta males, not Suzie Homemaker, not Hot Platinum Blonde, just people with their own quirks and desires and yearnings.
Go forth and conquer. The world is yours for the taking. You don't need analysis. Just jump right in.
posted by Dukat at 9:36 AM on June 11, 2011
Your question is infested with steretypes and limited perspective. I can only believe a lot of that came from media, so I would suggest first and foremost, turn off the TV. A while back I realized how silly some of the "nerdy guy meets hot cheerleader in high school" type movies were so I vowed to avoid those type of movies whenever possible. Similarly, whenever I find myself pre-judging something, I stop and think about the filter from which those ideas came. You are going to have to be more cognizant of the ideas you internalize, period. Once you do this, I think you will be able to better define yourself and know better how to address your own questions. My take:
1) Wear what you want. Go where you feel comfortable. Put your stereotypes aside, stop worrying about what you think others are thinking about you, and let your internal compass be your guide.
2) As aforementioned, "nice" is not the opposite of "freaky." (Again turn off the TV and be open to meeting people, putting your pre-judgements on the backburner).
Re pre-marital sex, be strong enough to stick to your values. I think many women--not all of course-- look back and wish they had the courage to do so. Even those so-called "nice guys" who you think are just nerdy virgins will expect you to fall in line and do what society deems "normal." But if that is not what YOU want to do, DON'T DO IT. You WILL regret compromising your values for what society--including MetaFilter--tells you is "normal." My advice is to be open-minded, but don't cross any boundaries that will leave you with less self-respect. Good luck.
posted by GeniPalm at 9:46 AM on June 11, 2011
1) Wear what you want. Go where you feel comfortable. Put your stereotypes aside, stop worrying about what you think others are thinking about you, and let your internal compass be your guide.
2) As aforementioned, "nice" is not the opposite of "freaky." (Again turn off the TV and be open to meeting people, putting your pre-judgements on the backburner).
Re pre-marital sex, be strong enough to stick to your values. I think many women--not all of course-- look back and wish they had the courage to do so. Even those so-called "nice guys" who you think are just nerdy virgins will expect you to fall in line and do what society deems "normal." But if that is not what YOU want to do, DON'T DO IT. You WILL regret compromising your values for what society--including MetaFilter--tells you is "normal." My advice is to be open-minded, but don't cross any boundaries that will leave you with less self-respect. Good luck.
posted by GeniPalm at 9:46 AM on June 11, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 7:26 PM on June 10, 2011