Prestige or cultural experience?
April 8, 2011 9:43 AM Subscribe
Is it always better to attend an intensive language program in the country where it is spoken, or is the name recognition of a program a reason to stay within the US?
Confused college student here! I'm trying to decide between two intensive language programs for over the summer. I've been accepted at a well-known, fairly hard to get accepted to language program within the United States. I've also been accepted at an equally intensive, but shorter and not as well-known, language program that takes place in-country. The cost is about the same for both (too expensive, unfortunately).
I've received advice in both directions and deposit deadlines are coming up uncomfortably soon. In language programs, is name recognition really that important, or would it look better in the long term to have experience in the region itself (it's a "critical needs" language)?
Confused college student here! I'm trying to decide between two intensive language programs for over the summer. I've been accepted at a well-known, fairly hard to get accepted to language program within the United States. I've also been accepted at an equally intensive, but shorter and not as well-known, language program that takes place in-country. The cost is about the same for both (too expensive, unfortunately).
I've received advice in both directions and deposit deadlines are coming up uncomfortably soon. In language programs, is name recognition really that important, or would it look better in the long term to have experience in the region itself (it's a "critical needs" language)?
What are you getting this training for? In languages, the real test is what you know, not where you studied. I would think attending the program where the language you are studying is local would be better, because you can absorb even more (and see the language in use) when you are outside the classroom. Plus, who can object to learning a language in a country where it's spoken?
posted by bluedaisy at 9:51 AM on April 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by bluedaisy at 9:51 AM on April 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
I can't speak to how it looks, but for gaining proficiency in a second language, there's nothing like having to do your grocery shopping and your daily getting-around in the second language; and there's no substitute for the cultural exposure.
I had three years of university-level Japanese study, two at a fairly prestigious Canadian university and one at a slackerish Japanese university, and the amount I learned in Japan eclipsed the amount I learned in Canada by a huge amount. That wasn't an intensive program, mind you, but I still think some experience in a country where the language is spoken natively is invaluable.
posted by Jeanne at 9:52 AM on April 8, 2011 [3 favorites]
I had three years of university-level Japanese study, two at a fairly prestigious Canadian university and one at a slackerish Japanese university, and the amount I learned in Japan eclipsed the amount I learned in Canada by a huge amount. That wasn't an intensive program, mind you, but I still think some experience in a country where the language is spoken natively is invaluable.
posted by Jeanne at 9:52 AM on April 8, 2011 [3 favorites]
I'm trying hard to think of a situation where anyone is going to care about the place you learned a language. Is your domestic program at Middlebury? If so, I can only say the small number of people I've known who went through it did indeed make phenomenal advancement in a short amount of time. I'd ignore prestige and go with whatever program you know to be more rigorous and giving you more of an immersion experience. That's not necessarily the program abroad. I know a lot of people who have done programs abroad who end up speaking English with their classmates too much of the time (I'm one of those people).
posted by skewed at 9:58 AM on April 8, 2011
posted by skewed at 9:58 AM on April 8, 2011
not sure what your long term plans are, but chances are you'll want to study again...if you can afford it, do the program now, and go to the country later....
in terms of prestige...people tend to care about that stuff when you want to use the language in very very specific to that language context- if you want to teach it, if you want to build your whole career around it. if you're using languages the way I am, in a non-language focused setting as an extra skill that gives me an advantage (i work in investments internationally), then the people around you would have no idea about these programs and just want to know that you can speak the language
posted by saraindc at 10:13 AM on April 8, 2011
in terms of prestige...people tend to care about that stuff when you want to use the language in very very specific to that language context- if you want to teach it, if you want to build your whole career around it. if you're using languages the way I am, in a non-language focused setting as an extra skill that gives me an advantage (i work in investments internationally), then the people around you would have no idea about these programs and just want to know that you can speak the language
posted by saraindc at 10:13 AM on April 8, 2011
Think about it - doing the language training in-country is a 24/7 immersion program. If I were to hire someone based on them learning in a fancy-pants school, or them going to the country to learn, I'd bet the one with the full-on immersion training is better at it. Plus - travel experience!!!
posted by lizbunny at 10:13 AM on April 8, 2011
posted by lizbunny at 10:13 AM on April 8, 2011
In language programs, is name recognition really that important, or would it look better in the long term to have experience in the region itself (it's a "critical needs" language)?
I don't know how to weigh the factors for this decision, but in terms of intelligence work (e.g. Persian, Indonesian, Arabic, Bengali, Turkish) and the like, they'd prefer that you have some in country experience generally. Also, once you fly to whereever you're going, a large part of the expense is already incurred. Might you be able to extend your stay and do more language work, even informally?
posted by Jahaza at 10:14 AM on April 8, 2011
I don't know how to weigh the factors for this decision, but in terms of intelligence work (e.g. Persian, Indonesian, Arabic, Bengali, Turkish) and the like, they'd prefer that you have some in country experience generally. Also, once you fly to whereever you're going, a large part of the expense is already incurred. Might you be able to extend your stay and do more language work, even informally?
posted by Jahaza at 10:14 AM on April 8, 2011
Go abroad. No contest. There's a huge amount of ambient learning when you're surrounded by the language all the time, something that no academic program could attempt to replicate.
The only people that will be impressed by going to a "name" program are other academics. Once you're out of college, all that doesn't add up to much.
posted by adamrice at 10:17 AM on April 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
The only people that will be impressed by going to a "name" program are other academics. Once you're out of college, all that doesn't add up to much.
posted by adamrice at 10:17 AM on April 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
No question, go abroad. If I had one regret about by college years. it's that I never went off campus to study. Even if your language learning was comparable, the cultural learning from being in country is huge. Who knows, maybe you'll even pick up a local accent and everyone will think you're a true native speaker.
posted by advicepig at 10:44 AM on April 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by advicepig at 10:44 AM on April 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
As someone who went through an intensive language training program in a city where that language wasn't spoken, was pronounced competent at the language, then moved to a place where people actually spoke it to find that her training amounted to pretty much nothing in the real work, I am also in the "go abroad" camp of thought on this question. You will learn so much more about what makes the language tick than if you are studying it in a place where it is a more technical approach. Your understanding and abilities will be so much more nuanced than your peers.
posted by urbanlenny at 12:06 PM on April 8, 2011
posted by urbanlenny at 12:06 PM on April 8, 2011
["real work" = "real world"]
posted by urbanlenny at 12:07 PM on April 8, 2011
posted by urbanlenny at 12:07 PM on April 8, 2011
Another vote, based on experience in learning 3 foreign languages...go abroad!
posted by Rapunzel1111 at 1:13 PM on April 8, 2011
posted by Rapunzel1111 at 1:13 PM on April 8, 2011
go abroad. i learned more in 1 year working in japan than i did in 3 years of intensive university study in a well-regarded program at a good school.
posted by raw sugar at 1:43 PM on April 8, 2011
posted by raw sugar at 1:43 PM on April 8, 2011
Response by poster: Thanks so much for all the advice! The domestic program is indeed Middlebury, which is intensive enough to make me hesitate about going abroad. Now I'm definitely leaning towards going to the country itself, especially since I'm not interested in teaching the language academically but just learning it as a useful skill.
posted by Papagayo at 2:08 PM on April 8, 2011
posted by Papagayo at 2:08 PM on April 8, 2011
My experience in the Peace Corps was that 2 years of college level Spanish was equivalent to around two months of in-country experience. The difference in learning rate for immersion programs versus academic-style programs is massive. Go abroad.
posted by zug at 2:25 PM on April 8, 2011
posted by zug at 2:25 PM on April 8, 2011
Best answer: There is nothing like "cracking" a foreign country as you conquer a language. However, to make the best progress, ABSOLUTELY FORCE yourself to speak ONLY your target language once you step off that plane/train/automobile. Just remember that other people might not have the same goal as you; you might meet someone at the market who wants to practice their english, or a group of classmates who use english outside of the classroom during downtime.
That's the twist of Middlebury: it might be a BETTER immersion experience than going to the actual country. It is a TOTAL immersion experience, and the students who go are super motivated. It's 2:30AM, you've done eight straight hours of homework, and you're brushing you're teeth next to a similarly exhausted student and -- guess what -- that person STILL addresses you in the target language.
Whenever I am asked how I'm so good at my foreign language, even though it's been six years I only say, "Middlebury." I ALWAYS get a big nod and an ah-ha. It's a damn hard, but totally awesome summer. (especially if you're studying Chinese. Those kids were ALWAYS partying...)
posted by missmary6 at 2:45 PM on April 8, 2011
That's the twist of Middlebury: it might be a BETTER immersion experience than going to the actual country. It is a TOTAL immersion experience, and the students who go are super motivated. It's 2:30AM, you've done eight straight hours of homework, and you're brushing you're teeth next to a similarly exhausted student and -- guess what -- that person STILL addresses you in the target language.
Whenever I am asked how I'm so good at my foreign language, even though it's been six years I only say, "Middlebury." I ALWAYS get a big nod and an ah-ha. It's a damn hard, but totally awesome summer. (especially if you're studying Chinese. Those kids were ALWAYS partying...)
posted by missmary6 at 2:45 PM on April 8, 2011
One of the keys to really learning a foreign language is usage. Constant use can really improve your ability, but it's hard, and your native language is always going to be easier to use. Studying at home, no matter how intensive your classes are, the world outside the classroom is going to be in your native language. You'll have to work harder to maintain your second-language bubble, and it will be so, so easy to just turn on the tv, or chat with friends. If you go abroad, trust me, there will still be English, you'll still be able to find people to chat in English with, but it won't be the default, it will be something you'll have to work hard to find. On the other hand, outside of the classroom, the world you inhabit will be that of the language you're studying. No matter how intensive the program at home is, the world outside isn't going to be as immersive an experience as studying abroad, and immersion is so much more helpful to learning a foreign language.
Besides, you've got the rest of your life to live at home. Go abroad.
posted by Ghidorah at 5:36 PM on April 8, 2011
Besides, you've got the rest of your life to live at home. Go abroad.
posted by Ghidorah at 5:36 PM on April 8, 2011
Best answer: I have done both - Middlebury for Arabic and living in Egypt a year or so later. For me, the two experiences brought very different skills. For learning as much as you can in a short period of time, nothing compares to Middlebury. If you take the language pledge seriously (and in my experience people did), you cannot avoid making dramatic progress in your target language. However, if culture and travel are more your focus or if you are a very outgoing person who will speak in the target language even when you aren't fluent, then the program abroad may be best.
I am shy, and if I hadn't been forced to speak Arabic 24/7 at Middlebury - even when I knew I sounded silly and made all kinds of mistakes - I never would have been able to become the comfortable (and even forceful) speaker that I was once I moved to Egypt.
posted by milagu at 6:15 PM on April 8, 2011
I am shy, and if I hadn't been forced to speak Arabic 24/7 at Middlebury - even when I knew I sounded silly and made all kinds of mistakes - I never would have been able to become the comfortable (and even forceful) speaker that I was once I moved to Egypt.
posted by milagu at 6:15 PM on April 8, 2011
Best answer: If you happen to be studying Chinese, and your main goal is improving language skills as much as possible in a short period of time, I would actually recommend Middlebury over going to China (of course, go to China at some point in the future!).
The Middlebury language pledge is enforced very strictly. And the fact is, it is very easy to get by in China with speaking little Chinese. I've met people who've lived here for years and can barely say more than "hello." Also, I believe after years of observation and experience n different language programs, that learning Chinese first in the States, and the coming to China, is the most efficient way. Teaching methods are much better in the States, and you can get a great foundation first, and then come to China and get all of the cultural and daily-life knowledge. There are some good American programs in China where teaching methods are good and the language pledge is strict though- CET, for example. I really believe that until your Chinese is up to an advanced level, studying the language in China is a very slow and inefficient process. And I speak from experience.
A lot of people are recommending you go abroad and this seems to make the most sense, but for language learning, initially, it's no necessarily the best choice (especially if you are talking about China). I don't think people giving you advice are all familiar with the intensive Middlebury experience. In country, you can choose to speak the language all the time, but you are not forced to. And if you speak it less than very well, many many people will be very willing t speak to you in English and give you an easier time. For the majority of in-country language programs, (in China), progress is not fast, unless there is a strongly-enforced language pledge, which most do not have, especially programs at chinese universities. Keep that in mind!
If you are indeed studying CHinese, feel free to memail me.
posted by bearette at 9:31 PM on April 8, 2011
The Middlebury language pledge is enforced very strictly. And the fact is, it is very easy to get by in China with speaking little Chinese. I've met people who've lived here for years and can barely say more than "hello." Also, I believe after years of observation and experience n different language programs, that learning Chinese first in the States, and the coming to China, is the most efficient way. Teaching methods are much better in the States, and you can get a great foundation first, and then come to China and get all of the cultural and daily-life knowledge. There are some good American programs in China where teaching methods are good and the language pledge is strict though- CET, for example. I really believe that until your Chinese is up to an advanced level, studying the language in China is a very slow and inefficient process. And I speak from experience.
A lot of people are recommending you go abroad and this seems to make the most sense, but for language learning, initially, it's no necessarily the best choice (especially if you are talking about China). I don't think people giving you advice are all familiar with the intensive Middlebury experience. In country, you can choose to speak the language all the time, but you are not forced to. And if you speak it less than very well, many many people will be very willing t speak to you in English and give you an easier time. For the majority of in-country language programs, (in China), progress is not fast, unless there is a strongly-enforced language pledge, which most do not have, especially programs at chinese universities. Keep that in mind!
If you are indeed studying CHinese, feel free to memail me.
posted by bearette at 9:31 PM on April 8, 2011
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find out whether there are any standarized tests for the language you're trying to learn and acing that will be what you should strive for.
considering that, I would definitely go for the program abroad. You will not only learn the language, but possibly so much more than that. Just be careful to use the language with your class mates once you get there. When I was 16 I went to London to learn English, and ended up helping an Italian friend practice her Spanish (my mother tongue)
posted by Tarumba at 9:51 AM on April 8, 2011