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If you don't use the dishwasher you are going to DIE!!!
January 6, 2011 6:32 PM   Subscribe

Dishwasher vs Washing Dishes By Hand -- Which is better and/or safer?

I have been washing dishes by hand and letting them dry on a rack for the past 15 years. My new roommate insists on using the dishwasher and wants me to get with the program. I'm refusing, and she's accusing me of being unsanitary and putting my health at risk.

My arguments:

1) It's easier for me to wash something by hand, let it dry overnight, and use it again the next day. I have a limited supply of some things like a couple of mason jars that I use for smoothies, and pyrex containers that I use for lunch. If I had to put them in the dishwasher, they wouldn't be available for use for 2-3 days, so I'd have to buy extra. This seems insane.

2) While things washed in a dishwasher may be subjectively "cleaner" as my roommate claims, I counterclaim that there is nothing wrong with washing things by hand and letting them dry on a rack. I do not know of a good reason why washing dishes by hand with soap (even with cold water) would be less sanitary.

Her arguments:

1) She says that washing dishes by hand is unsanitary, especially if you use water that is less than 110 F. She claims this greatly increases the risk for food-borne illnesses like salmonella. The dishwasher, she notes, has a heating element that gets hot enough to kill any germs.

(I don't know where this mythical 110F figure is from, since I thought 160 F was the temp needed to kill bacteria)

2) Using the dishwasher is more efficient than hand washing and uses less water.


I contend that her arguments are mostly bunk. I could see how a regular dishwasher may use less water, BUT our dishwasher is a portable one that connects to the sink faucet and so the hot water is on the entire time and it's not a tight connection so there is always a small stream of hot water leaking down the drain. Over the course of the hour (!) that the dishwasher runs, I am sure it uses more hot water and more energy than I use hand washing (with cold water) the same amount of dishes.

Also, I'm pretty sure that most food illness bacteria need water to survive, so if you hand wash and any germs are (in the rare case) left on the dishes, they will die once the water dries up/off. Last but not least, I am hardly ever sick and certainly have never had anything that I have ever thought to attribute to not properly washing my dishes (I haven't been sick of even had an upset stomach in 3+ years).

Who is right?

(Note: I do wash with warm water when dealing with oily/fatty foods so that it liquefies and gets bound up in the soap better, but if I'm just rinsing out a tea mug or something simple, I use cold water)
posted by buckaroo_benzai to Health & Fitness (37 answers total) 3 users marked this as a favorite
 
She is a germophobic nut. If you put water and soap on it and scrub it, it's going to get clean -- or at least clean enough. Bacteria die in the air. Furthermore, the dishwasher is only more efficient than hand washing if you leave the water running the entire time you wash dishes by hand. Nobody I know does this.

Plus, my dishwasher — and many others I've seen — has a tendency to leave food in annoying places, like between the tines of forks and in the nooks and crannies of oddly shaped glassware. It seems to me that those globs of food are more likely to contain bacteria that won't die. I've never done a load of dishes that didn't result in at least two or three pieces of silverware being washed. By hand. To get them clean.
posted by sonic meat machine at 6:39 PM on January 6, 2011 [3 favorites]


I'm a hand washer myself. I think dishes from a dishwasher smell chemical, and I don't want to consume chemicals.
posted by anadem at 6:42 PM on January 6, 2011


According to Cook's Illustrated, washing by hand with warm, soapy water is perfectly fine, and I for one would never bother with one of those portable dishwashers, which seem awkward and wasteful. We have a built-in dishwasher and I like it especially for chicken-y things, but it's more a matter of convenience than sanitation. Your roommate sounds like my wife, who was raised in an only-the-dishwasher-sanitizes household. I, who was raised in a dishwashers-are-a-waste household, am with you.
posted by farishta at 6:48 PM on January 6, 2011


She's a probably a nut, but if I were you I'd just use the dishwasher. If you're the only one using the mason jars, go ahead and handwash those, and explain that you are handwashing the things that only you use. Then suck it up and put your common dishes that you share with your roommate in the dishwasher. People are irrational about germs and cleanliness.
posted by mskyle at 6:49 PM on January 6, 2011 [1 favorite]


Uh, yeah, she's wrong. The dishwasher doesn't have magic bacteria-killin' power. It cleans with hot-but-not-that-hot water and soap, just like you. And as others have pointed out, dishwashers can leave food residue for bacteria to nibble on anyway.

A thought: It's okay to eat food from my hands after I wash them with soap and warm water. Why would this not also be true for plates?

On efficiency: here's an article with some analysis. They say that using the dishwasher is marginally more efficient, yes - but only if you're running a full load, and probably not when you add in an hour of leaking water. If your supply of dishes is low enough that you have to run out of certain dishes for days before doing a full load, you're never going to actually be doing full loads, which means much lower efficiency.

One thing you might be able to do to make your roomie feel better might be to regular sanitize whatever you use to wash dishes, whether that's regularly switching out washcloths, or microwaving/bleaching sponges.
posted by mandanza at 6:53 PM on January 6, 2011


I don't think the heating element in the dishwasher is really hot enough to sanitize things. I suppose the heated dry cycle might, but alot of people don't use it, including me.

Besides, what salmonella is she even talking about? If your food was cooked properly, then wouldn't it be dead? And if it was raw foods like fruits and vegetables, when you'd be getting sick from eating it, not from dishes.
posted by cabingirl at 6:54 PM on January 6, 2011


If you do a good enough job scrubbing and there's no residue, you should be fine. I'm a germaphobic nut so I always wash stuff that touched meat, dairy, eggs, etc. in really hot (my hands hurt) water, and I'm a lazy scrubber with little patience, so I use the dishwasher for everything that's dishwasher safe.

But anyway, it's your health. Tell her to use and wash her dishes her way, and you'll do likewise.
posted by SMPA at 6:54 PM on January 6, 2011


Previously
posted by Confess, Fletch at 6:55 PM on January 6, 2011


You wash your hands after you wipe your ass with less than dishwasher-hot water and that is presumably OK.

she's being a little nutty. Up to you whether you want to die on this hill though, I guess.
posted by gaspode at 7:07 PM on January 6, 2011 [3 favorites]


She says that washing dishes by hand is unsanitary

Ah, I know people like that who basically yearn for household autoclaves. You're not going to get far with appeals to reason -- or the suggestion that humanity somehow survived before dishwashers -- so it's just a case of evaluating whether how much grief from Ms Autoclave you're prepared to handle.
posted by holgate at 7:16 PM on January 6, 2011 [8 favorites]


Unless there is a copious amount of steam coming from the dishwasher when you run it, you can be fairly confident that it is not sanitizing the dishes. If you had a commercial-grade dishwasher in your kitchen, that would be another story. In the interests of appeasing your (slightly germaphobic) roommate, how about rinsing your dishes with a dilute bleach solution? Bleach definitely kills germs, and it's food safe as long as you have a very dilute rinse and it dries thoroughly. It's how most restaurants sanitize their dishes. If her objection is truly cleanliness and not a desire to have you do things her way, this should satisfy her.
posted by stoneweaver at 7:17 PM on January 6, 2011 [1 favorite]


One difference to consider is visibility: With a dishwasher, utensils and such go inside the machine, so you don't see all the gunk, etc., that comes off during the washing process and collects in the sink, a sight that can easily gross out those who are so disposed (like your roommate).

Thus, one strategy for dealing with her would involve making sure that you keep the sink area immaculate, change out the sponge/scrub brush regularly, and wash the dish towels often. If you're hand washing consistently, this stuff gets nasty quickly, especially when it's someone else's crud that she's seeing (ie., yours).
posted by 5Q7 at 7:24 PM on January 6, 2011 [2 favorites]


The advantage of using the dishwasher is that it uses less water than washing by hand. In terms of sanitizing dishes, anyone who has worked any position in a restaurant knows you need to add a sanitizer chemical to the dishwasher cycle - the dishwasher itself is not enough to "kill germs".
posted by KokuRyu at 7:28 PM on January 6, 2011 [1 favorite]


My dishwasher has some kind of sauna function that generates steam, so I guess I feel better putting a spoon in there that has been used to serve our dog raw meat. So as stoneweaver mentioned, I doubt yours is sanitizing anything, unless it does something like that. Either way, she's definitely being paranoid about the germs. At first glance, buying more dishes does seem insane; however, if your washer was more efficient (it doesn't sound like it is from your description), it might be seen as an investment, like spending more money for a hybrid car or something.
posted by nel at 7:30 PM on January 6, 2011


Dishwasher soap often has sanitizing agents like bleach.

The dishwasher doesn't use the same amount of water as just the faucet running. If you've ever seen a water filter that attaches on-faucet you'll notice that even with the faucet completely on, the water flows more slowly. Same with the dishwasher.
posted by the young rope-rider at 7:31 PM on January 6, 2011


I'm with camp dishwasher, though I don't think this argument is a hill you should die on, or she should pitch a fit over.

For most values of dishwashers and hand washers,a built-in automatic dishwasher uses less water. Exceptions are the extremely frugal hand washers or old/inefficient automatic dishwashers or running half loads. Your portable dish washer sounds less efficient.

As for bacteria being killed, her facts are wrong, but I still think an automatic dishwasher wins out. Merely reaching 110° isn't some magic sterile point. There are lots of germs that can survive a brief splash at 110° or 160°— however fewer can take 10 or 30 minutes. Its the time something is held at a high temperature that will see more bacteria die. That holding at a high temp simply does not happen with hand washing.

I'm also weary of siding with hand washers, because most people really suck at washing dishes. I don't know if you're one of these people, but using hot water for everything is one of my criteria. It comes down to human error. What if that plate you had raw chicken on gets mistaken for a sandwich plate, which you only run cold water over? An automatic dishwasher isn't going to make that mistake.

So, your dishwasher: more efficient? Meh, maybe. More sanitary? Yes.

What your argument come down to is that you'd have to wait for dishes to be washed. I cook a lot (and generate more dirty dishes), but I'd be surprised if two people couldn't fill up a dishwasher every 2 days. Wishing to avoid buying a $0.50 mason jar probably won't buy you many points in this argument. Your roommate is asking you to bear a slight inconvenience or monetary expense in exchange for you doing less work and having likely a more sanitary kitchen. The other unspoken benefit is a roommate who isn't arguing with you about this issue.

If you are using shared items and she'd prefer they get washed in the dishwasher, I don't think thats unreasonable. If there are unique items that you want clean now, you can still wash them by hand. Nothing is being diminished or taken away from you. Again, it's not like it is more work to not wash dishes. It is likely that no argument from you will persuade her that hand washing is more sanitary. Levels of cleanliness are something that are deeply imbedded in people. You will not win.

However, if she's insisting you hand wash the plates that you, and only you, use: tell her to butt out. They're your own dishes and your own risk of infection for crying out loud.

Also, if you are a sink-piler, (someone who piles the dirty dishes to be hand washed in the sink for days, instead of putting them in the empty dishwasher), there is a special punishment awaiting you in bad roommate hell.
posted by fontophilic at 7:38 PM on January 6, 2011 [6 favorites]


Do you guys live in a restaurant?

No?

OK, well then it really doesn't matter how the dishes get done, as long as all the food matter is getting cleaned off the dishes in a timely fashion.

If there are just two of you, and you're preparing a normal number of meals in your home, the chances of things like salmonella or any other seriously dangerous bacteria developing to an extent that would be a real health risk is slim to none.

That said, if using the dishwasher isn't otherwise impractical for you - if this is really just a matter of different housekeeping preferences - I'm not sure this is the hill you want to die on.

Another idea - I've had your roommate's problem before with people who literally aren't getting the filth off the dishes with their hand washing. It's an awkward problem to have, because it sucks to have to tell somebody that they don't know how to do basic household tasks. To me it's almost as bad as telling someone they have B.O. But maybe this is why she's bringing it up? Maybe there's a blatant lack of cleanliness and she's just couching it in less insulting terms?
posted by Sara C. at 7:49 PM on January 6, 2011


People in many parts the world wash their dishes in cold water that's known to contain bacteria at least some of the time. These people know that as long as the dishes are dry when they next use them, the soap and water routine is totally adequate.
posted by rosa at 8:13 PM on January 6, 2011 [2 favorites]


Maybe she thinks you don't wash them thoroughly enough. I personally think dishes washed in cold water are pretty gross- I could still see milk residue, saliva on glasses, food on forks, etc after my old roommates did dishes. Washing in hot sink water (with gloves so the water can be hotter) might be a good compromise.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 8:18 PM on January 6, 2011 [1 favorite]


I only wash dishes by hand, I think they get cleaner this way. I did, however, have to buy a new dishwasher when we bought new appliances so it would match--a waste of money but necessary for aesthetics.
posted by MsKim at 9:19 PM on January 6, 2011


There is nothing wrong with handwashing.

I have a limited supply of some things like a couple of mason jars that I use for smoothies, and pyrex containers that I use for lunch. If I had to put them in the dishwasher, they wouldn't be available for use for 2-3 days, so I'd have to buy extra. This seems insane.

If she's not even using these items, WTF does she care how clean they are?
posted by desuetude at 9:52 PM on January 6, 2011


I have done both. I was actually taught how to wash dishes in public school in the 1970s (home economics). We were told then that you should always pour boiling water on the washed and rinsed dishes (while in the dish rack). We did this in class. Washing was a two sink affair: one sink with very hot soapy water for washing, one sink with very hot clear water for rinsing. The water was so hot we had to wear rubber gloves. Dishes were air dried. Drying with a towel was frowned upon, since it could spread germs. By pouring boiling water on the washed dishes they dried very quickly, because they were so hot.

When we used the dishwasher in class we did not have to worry about this. Yes, we were actually taught how to load and use a dishwasher! We had a laboratory classroom that was like a small apartment. It was kind of cool.

In my experience, dishes come out way cleaner in the dishwasher. I have mine set to not heat the water and air dry, so it is not super hot water. I believe it saves water.
posted by wandering_not_lost at 9:58 PM on January 6, 2011


Also, if you are a sink-piler, (someone who piles the dirty dishes to be hand washed in the sink for days, instead of putting them in the empty dishwasher), there is a special punishment awaiting you in bad roommate hell.

I don't do this. I wash everything immediately after use, unless it is something that needs to be soaked for an hour or two (but this is rare). I hate sink pilers, too. Especially when they don't even rinse the food off. Ew.


I've had your roommate's problem before with people who literally aren't getting the filth off the dishes with their hand washing. It's an awkward problem to have, because it sucks to have to tell somebody that they don't know how to do basic household tasks. To me it's almost as bad as telling someone they have B.O. But maybe this is why she's bringing it up? Maybe there's a blatant lack of cleanliness and she's just couching it in less insulting terms?

This isn't the case, I take pride in my cleanliness (the contrast between my bedroom and the mess that is the rest of the house -- her domain -- is like night and day). Trust me, my dishes are clean and if she wasn't such a germophobe there'd be no way she could tell the difference between my hand-washed dishes and the ones done in the dishwasher. It's purely mental.


In the interests of appeasing your (slightly germaphobic) roommate, how about rinsing your dishes with a dilute bleach solution?

What if that plate you had raw chicken on gets mistaken for a sandwich plate, which you only run cold water over?

She wouldn't go for this for general use. Bleach is not "eco friendly," though I do use it on some of my own stuff when I cook meat... but this is rare since I usually transfer raw meat straight from the package to a cooking vessel of some sort (which then gets heated to 160+). I also don't mix up dishes, since as I said above, I wash them as I use them or immediately after.


Thus, one strategy for dealing with her would involve making sure that you keep the sink area immaculate, change out the sponge/scrub brush regularly, and wash the dish towels often.

I already do this, in fact it wouldn't be a stretch to say that I'm cleaner than she is, despite the fact that she is putting most of her stuff into the dishwasher. I think it is basically coming down to the fact that she is a germophobe, eco-nut, and control freak.

Hell, she also thinks that the power company's "smart meters" are giving people headaches and cancer due to all of the UNKNOWN EFFECTS OF ELECTROMAGNETIC RADIATION (!!!)... I'm like, um, do you mean wireless radio waves ? She also argues this with a straight face as she uses her cell phone and WiFi all day long. But that's a whole 'nother story.
posted by buckaroo_benzai at 10:58 PM on January 6, 2011


Ooops, above, this should be in italics:

I've had your roommate's problem before with people who literally aren't getting the filth off the dishes with their hand washing. It's an awkward problem to have, because it sucks to have to tell somebody that they don't know how to do basic household tasks. To me it's almost as bad as telling someone they have B.O. But maybe this is why she's bringing it up? Maybe there's a blatant lack of cleanliness and she's just couching it in less insulting terms?
posted by buckaroo_benzai at 10:59 PM on January 6, 2011


We (my family) have a dishwasher (the large, plumbed-in sort). Here's our experience:

1. It's only really viable if you know you can fill it up and run it every day (or at least every two days). Leave it any longer than that and it's just a cupboard where you keep smelly dishes. We're a family of four who cook pretty much every meal, so it works for us.

2. It's only really useful for items you can afford to be without between wash cycles. So we've never used it for baby bottles, our main kitchen knives, or our children's cutlery - those go in the sink and get washed more frequently. We have eight of pretty much every type of crockery and cutlery item. Any fewer than that and the system wouldn't work. There are also a few things that just aren't dishwasher-safe.

3. I'm much happier with the cleaning ability of my dishwasher. Appliances vary, but if I open mine immediately after a wash, a cloud of hot water vapour emerges, and I literally cannot touch the plates because they are extremely hot and squeaky-clean. I think a lot of people misunderstand how hot water needs to be for hand-washing; it really ought to be as hot as you can physically bear. Lukewarm water, even with soap, isn't really adequate, and wouldn't be tolerated in any decent restaurant. And anything you use to wash with (cloth, brush) really ought to be replaced regularly and kept very clean (with bleach and hot water, or just a wash in the dishwasher!). Inadequately cleaned plates and utensils won't make you sick most of the time; it's more of a lottery. Eventually there's going to be a chicken breast that was kept just a day too long, and a chopping-board that didn't quite get the temperature and scrubbing it needed.

4. There are good and bad dishwashers, good and bad ways to load them, and they take a bit of maintenance. A friend of mine was about to replace their dishwasher when I showed them how to unclip the spray arms, open them up and clean them out properly. Their washer how runs like new. Dishwashers don't clean themselves 100% efficiently, and the chemical cleaners aren't always enough. And knowing how to position bowls, wooden spoons, plastic tubs etc. is an essential part of using a dishwasher.

5. I have eczema. Owning a dishwasher has improved the health of my hands immensely.

Ultimately, though, it's more about personal preference than arguments about efficiency or hygiene. For me it's something that becomes useful only when there's a high turnover of dirty items. Without a dishwasher we'd be doing fifteen minutes of hand-washing and drying three or four times a day, so it works out well. Hygiene and efficiency are minor arguments beside practicality. Personally I wouldn't use a dishwasher if I were living by myself or frequently using just a few items.
posted by le morte de bea arthur at 3:33 AM on January 7, 2011 [1 favorite]


My dishwasher specifically has a light that glows red if the last load was run hot enough to sanitize the dishes, and it's always on. So some dishwashers are designed to sanitize.
posted by about_time at 4:12 AM on January 7, 2011


Why would your dishes not be available for 2-3 days if you use the dishwasher? Are you letting dirty dishes fester inside the dishwasher?? That is way grosser than handwashing.
posted by gjc at 5:03 AM on January 7, 2011 [1 favorite]


I totally agree with the above posters saying that a dishwasher is not an autoclave, nor does a household need an autoclave. Handwashing gets things clean enough. I also agree that this is not the hill to die on. So, in the interest of compromise...

What if you wash your frequent-use dishes by hand (the favorite mug you're about to make another cup of tea in, today's mason jar for tomorrow morning, etc.) but put standard household items (plates, unmarked glasses/mugs, silverware) in the dishwasher just to shut her up? Or if you've only got a couple of each particular item so you don't want to risk running out of bowls, sort of alternate days... wash everything yourself if she ran the dishwasher yesterday, but once it gets more than half full, start adding your stuff to it. Basically, make some effort to use the dishwasher occasionally, so that it looks like your routine is "use the dishwasher unless ___", even if a rather long list of exceptions goes in the blank.

Unnecessary anecdote: I have hurt memories of 3rd grade when the teacher asked us if we washed our dishes by hand, and some of the class raised their hands, and then she asked which of us actually wash the dishes ourselves instead of our parents washing everything... I was pretty pleased with myself that I was a contributing household member and a good girl who did my chores... and then she yelled at everybody with their hands in the air and told us there was no way that kids could get dishes clean enough, and our hands just couldn't take the kind of hot water that dishes need to be washed in, and some parents sure are irresponsible and lazy. So, that leads to my looking forward to one day having a dishwasher again, and being mildly eyerolly that my husband washes everything in lukewarm water when I choose to go pretty hot myself, but it's not like I think that he's going to give me salmonella. I'm more concerned that when our parents come to visit, they've forgotten how to get the food off plates without a dishwasher, and I keep running into slightly gross dishes for a week after they leave.
posted by aimedwander at 7:05 AM on January 7, 2011


Consider that humankind managed to get by for thousands of years without dishwashers, so clearly the germs that get killed by machine-washing don't exist in huge enough numbers for us to have been poisoned en masse.

However, I'd personally use the crap out of a dishwasher if I had one, because hand-washing dishes is a pain in the ass.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:18 AM on January 7, 2011


Consider that humankind managed to get by for thousands of years without dishwashers

To be fair, the same could be made against antibiotics and plumbed toilets, but we're arguably better off for those things.

But yes, any argument about whether you absolutely need a dishwasher to attain clean dishes is a bit silly. It's the sort of argument you get into when the root of the matter is really a difference in lifestyle philosophies. She values the convenience of appliances; you prefer a simple, hands-on, lower-impact approach.
posted by le morte de bea arthur at 7:30 AM on January 7, 2011


It might have to do with volume. I was the roommate who wanted to use the dishwasher, not for any wacko reason but because I didn't like washing dishes. But if the other roommates are hand-washing some of the dishes, then there are never enough dishes to fill the dishwasher and run it. I had to choose between running it half full (I'm an eco terrorist!!) or waiting several days to let it fill up and run it.
posted by CathyG at 7:40 AM on January 7, 2011 [1 favorite]


Why would your dishes not be available for 2-3 days if you use the dishwasher? Are you letting dirty dishes fester inside the dishwasher?? That is way grosser than handwashing.

Yeah that's pretty much what she does. I think it's gross. Plus her dishwasher is really old (at least 20 years) and doesn't do a great job getting things clean because she overloads it... I mean, really overloads it by stacking things on top of one another, not leaving space between items, etc. Which really, is pretty much in line with the rest of the house (e.g. it's pretty much impossible to open any of the kitchen cabinets to get something out without first removing a half dozen other items that are in the way).
posted by buckaroo_benzai at 7:46 AM on January 7, 2011


Plus her dishwasher is really old (at least 20 years) and doesn't do a great job getting things clean because she overloads it... I mean, really overloads it by stacking things on top of one another, not leaving space between items, etc.

I wonder if you could find any evidence suggesting that this practice actually cancells out the hygenic advantages of a dishwasher?...
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:02 AM on January 7, 2011


From your posts in this thread, it's clear this is not about dishwasher vs hand washing. You have some contempt for her, her viewpoints, and how she keeps the house. Maybe you can search on how people deal with difficult roommates rather than proving yourself right in this one case.
posted by valeries at 8:27 AM on January 7, 2011 [5 favorites]


I don't think the heating element in the dishwasher is really hot enough to sanitize things. I suppose the heated dry cycle might

I was curious once, so I stuck the probe from a digital kitchen thermometer in the dishwasher during the dry cycle. It got up to 204°F. Admittedly, this was for a built-in dishwasher and not the portable described by the OP.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 10:58 AM on January 7, 2011


1. Soapy water gets it clean. Period.

2. Sounds like the situation is a mess. I think you need to have a serious sit-down if you're going to keep living together.
posted by Citrus at 11:04 AM on January 7, 2011


From your posts in this thread, it's clear this is not about dishwasher vs hand washing. You have some contempt for her, her viewpoints, and how she keeps the house. Maybe you can search on how people deal with difficult roommates rather than proving yourself right in this one case.

I'm not going to deny it, I kinda think she's a nutjob and a bossy control freak. This dishwasher fiasco is just the latest thing. I'm not trying to prove I'm right -- I'm already pretty sure I am. I just thought I'd ask the question to see if her arguments were perhaps valid and if there was something that I was overlooking when it came to dish washing regimes. Fortunately, going by the consensus here, it seems there is nothing dangerous about hand-washing dishes and really no benefit to using a dishwasher unless you have a big family and hate doing dishes.
posted by buckaroo_benzai at 11:20 AM on January 7, 2011


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