How can I make the fire go up but not come down?
January 4, 2011 9:04 AM Subscribe
Is there any possible way to do sky lanterns around NYC safely?
I just saw this video and am struck by how beautiful it is. I came here to ask what sort of permits I would need to do this in NYC and when doing the mandatory search I came across this.
Anyway, it's still so beautiful I am loathe to just give up, so is there any way this idea would work safely?
I just saw this video and am struck by how beautiful it is. I came here to ask what sort of permits I would need to do this in NYC and when doing the mandatory search I came across this.
One of the many, many paradoxes of the exquisitely mad Thai culture. It's a wonderful spectacle of light when the Khom Fai are released, freighted with metaphorical meaning; and then they lose altitude and come down once everyone is drunk or sleeping or both; they land on the traditionally wooden houses and burn them down. Every year, hundreds of houses go up in flames and many die. The classic Thai response to this chain of events is, "how sad, this bad luck."I had assumed the lanterns had some sort of safety mechanism built in, I mean that many people wouldn't do something unsafe right?
Anyway, it's still so beautiful I am loathe to just give up, so is there any way this idea would work safely?
Not saying that it's the best idea, but I was on a roof in Greenpoint for july 4th, and someone nearby had sent out doazens and dozens of them. It was beautiful, and I didn't hear of any fires occurring as a result.
posted by newpotato at 9:20 AM on January 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by newpotato at 9:20 AM on January 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I was thinking maybe on the edge of the East River. If this were a more formal event and not just a guerilla up-floating, what sort of permits would be needed?
posted by Brainy at 9:26 AM on January 4, 2011
posted by Brainy at 9:26 AM on January 4, 2011
Response by poster: Oktober, do you think and LED would get hot enough? I imagine not.
posted by Brainy at 9:36 AM on January 4, 2011
posted by Brainy at 9:36 AM on January 4, 2011
Oh, absolutely not. That's why I said you'd have to devise an alternate means of lifting them (like putting them inside a helium baloon)
posted by Oktober at 9:39 AM on January 4, 2011
posted by Oktober at 9:39 AM on January 4, 2011
Response by poster: Ah, I missed the helium part. That makes more sense.
posted by Brainy at 9:40 AM on January 4, 2011
posted by Brainy at 9:40 AM on January 4, 2011
I saw some (just a dozen or so) in Chicago last fall. I hadn't heard of sky lanterns at the time, so I Googled around in the local papers the next day and couldn't find anything, so I guess the cops didn't care too much. As far as I can tell they're not specifically banned in New York or anywhere else, although something tells me that the moment they're popular enough for a legislator to hear about it they're going to go the way of Four Loko. I doubt you could get official go-ahead, so I think you need to decide whether you want to throw caution and flaming paper to the wind and just do it without permission, or settle for something less cool.
posted by theodolite at 9:40 AM on January 4, 2011
posted by theodolite at 9:40 AM on January 4, 2011
Looks beautiful, but sounds like a terrible idea for NYC. I know I'm not directly answering your question here, but a couple things to do/consider...
If this was legally doable, I would have thought someone would have already organized it.
Have you looked into whether any fires are ever caused by this? Having some data handy might make a persuasive arguement with whatever city official you end up dealing with.
How long do they burn?
Depending upon the volume of lanterns, it could be disruptive to the airspace. Wind and weather patterns (impossible to predict in advance) could send them blowing right into an undesirable path.
Depending upon where you released them, you might need some clearance or to at least advise someone? in NJ also.
posted by blaneyphoto at 9:42 AM on January 4, 2011
If this was legally doable, I would have thought someone would have already organized it.
Have you looked into whether any fires are ever caused by this? Having some data handy might make a persuasive arguement with whatever city official you end up dealing with.
How long do they burn?
Depending upon the volume of lanterns, it could be disruptive to the airspace. Wind and weather patterns (impossible to predict in advance) could send them blowing right into an undesirable path.
Depending upon where you released them, you might need some clearance or to at least advise someone? in NJ also.
posted by blaneyphoto at 9:42 AM on January 4, 2011
You don't need any permits that I know of to do it in the UK. Are you sure they are required in the US? I would love to see a source about the fires/deaths - the wicks burn out long before they come back to the ground and I've never heard of any problems using them in Western countries. The one thing I would be concerned about is the environmental impact but some lanterns are less harmful than others.
An LED with a helium balloon would be a woefully poor substitute.
posted by turkeyphant at 9:43 AM on January 4, 2011
An LED with a helium balloon would be a woefully poor substitute.
posted by turkeyphant at 9:43 AM on January 4, 2011
The really short answer is that no, there's no real way to loft simple, inexpensive unmanned hot air balloons without them being dangerous. Yeah, they're gorgeous, but lofting balloons is littering. It all comes down somewhere, and if it comes down on fire somewhere where fire shouldn't be and that catches fire... well, the old stodgy man in me says you should be charged with arson. Possibly manslaughter if someone gets hurt.
Fire is no joke. It's not a toy. Don't loft it into the sky and assume it's going to burn out before it falls. You wouldn't fling random lit candles around your home, yard or workplace would you? How would you feel about someone tossing a lit candle or lamp through your window? At your kids or pets? How about tossing one in your car? Or a lit candle in your hair or down your collar, perhaps?
Yeah, they're beautiful. No, they are not a good idea. Even without fire, you're throwing litter at the sky.
You want to know what looks nearly as cool? Flying kites at night with glowsticks attached to them.
posted by loquacious at 9:53 AM on January 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
Fire is no joke. It's not a toy. Don't loft it into the sky and assume it's going to burn out before it falls. You wouldn't fling random lit candles around your home, yard or workplace would you? How would you feel about someone tossing a lit candle or lamp through your window? At your kids or pets? How about tossing one in your car? Or a lit candle in your hair or down your collar, perhaps?
Yeah, they're beautiful. No, they are not a good idea. Even without fire, you're throwing litter at the sky.
You want to know what looks nearly as cool? Flying kites at night with glowsticks attached to them.
posted by loquacious at 9:53 AM on January 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
You might want to check out the New York City fire code. This is only a guess, but a sky lantern may fall under Chapter 33, as a "special effect."
posted by otolith at 9:53 AM on January 4, 2011
posted by otolith at 9:53 AM on January 4, 2011
I have no idea how you could possibly get a permit to do this.
I would imagine this is the kind of thing where you MIGHT be able to make traditional sky lanterns safely, but the minute even one person is hurt or inconvenienced, you could be in for a lot of legal trouble.
As a point of anecdata, I was told a story where someone released a sky lantern for their wedding, and it caught fire pretty quickly - as in, they saw it ignite, so they started chasing it in a car. It went down within several blocks, landed in a huge tree in front of a house, and started a fire in the tree. They panicked and drove off, and heard firetrucks a couple minutes later. Drove by later and there was no damage to the house, but the tree was pretty burnt.
So my thought is that your safest course of action is to try some kind of similar-looking, non-incendiary method. balloons+LEDs sounds good, if you don't care that you're scattering batteries around.
posted by dubold at 9:56 AM on January 4, 2011
I would imagine this is the kind of thing where you MIGHT be able to make traditional sky lanterns safely, but the minute even one person is hurt or inconvenienced, you could be in for a lot of legal trouble.
As a point of anecdata, I was told a story where someone released a sky lantern for their wedding, and it caught fire pretty quickly - as in, they saw it ignite, so they started chasing it in a car. It went down within several blocks, landed in a huge tree in front of a house, and started a fire in the tree. They panicked and drove off, and heard firetrucks a couple minutes later. Drove by later and there was no damage to the house, but the tree was pretty burnt.
So my thought is that your safest course of action is to try some kind of similar-looking, non-incendiary method. balloons+LEDs sounds good, if you don't care that you're scattering batteries around.
posted by dubold at 9:56 AM on January 4, 2011
I've never heard of any problems using them in Western countries
I have.
posted by emilyw at 10:29 AM on January 4, 2011
I have.
posted by emilyw at 10:29 AM on January 4, 2011
On the LED front - I don't know if it's a known product, but somebody at the End of the Road festival last year was releasing helium balloons with a light source (I imagine an LED light) inside the balloon. It's still littering, in the sense that it will land somewhere and likely not biodegrade, but it's a thing that was done and probably isn't likely to set fire to anything. You could probably do it with one of those flashing bracelets people wear at Burning Man, or similar.
On fire lanterns - in Britain, according to these quite exhaustive safety instructions (link to a PDF), you have to alert the relevant authorities if you want to release them within five miles of an airport or the coast, you can't release them within two miles of a road or five miles of fields, and you have to be careful that you do not release them too close to trees or other obstructions, or in winds that would carry them towards same, because if the paper tears they will descend early and then probably set light to the paper canopy, and possibly also whatever they have snagged in. All these precautions notwithstanding, I imagine that if you obeyed all the instructions but still set fire to a house it would not go entirely well for you.
On a purely pragmatic level, it feels like a lot of New York City would by one or more of these stipulations. If your buildings are largely one or two stories and you are surrounded by a lot of water, it's possibly safer to start with.
posted by DNye at 10:40 AM on January 4, 2011
On fire lanterns - in Britain, according to these quite exhaustive safety instructions (link to a PDF), you have to alert the relevant authorities if you want to release them within five miles of an airport or the coast, you can't release them within two miles of a road or five miles of fields, and you have to be careful that you do not release them too close to trees or other obstructions, or in winds that would carry them towards same, because if the paper tears they will descend early and then probably set light to the paper canopy, and possibly also whatever they have snagged in. All these precautions notwithstanding, I imagine that if you obeyed all the instructions but still set fire to a house it would not go entirely well for you.
On a purely pragmatic level, it feels like a lot of New York City would by one or more of these stipulations. If your buildings are largely one or two stories and you are surrounded by a lot of water, it's possibly safer to start with.
posted by DNye at 10:40 AM on January 4, 2011
Gah! "would be covered by" in that last paragraph, obviously.
posted by DNye at 10:41 AM on January 4, 2011
posted by DNye at 10:41 AM on January 4, 2011
Could you tie a string to it? They might look neat as kites.
posted by ljesse at 11:02 AM on January 4, 2011
posted by ljesse at 11:02 AM on January 4, 2011
How timely! I was just introduced to sky lanterns at a new year's eve celebration in the carribean.
There is no safety mechanism that I saw. At the bottom of the lantern is a solid ring of something that has to be lit with a long-sustaining flame, like a small butane torch, because it takes a while for the ring to catch aflame. After it catches, you have to hold the lantern close to the ground until the gas fills the lantern, which is about five minutes. Five minutes is a long, long time for some people, and if you let it go early it will float up a little and then come down 20 feet in front of you.
As fun as it was, the idea of handing a bunch of drunk people paper lanterns with live flames inside was a breathtakingly stupid idea. I'm not a terribly litigious sort, but even I can't imagine these being legal in urban areas.
posted by 8dot3 at 11:49 AM on January 4, 2011
There is no safety mechanism that I saw. At the bottom of the lantern is a solid ring of something that has to be lit with a long-sustaining flame, like a small butane torch, because it takes a while for the ring to catch aflame. After it catches, you have to hold the lantern close to the ground until the gas fills the lantern, which is about five minutes. Five minutes is a long, long time for some people, and if you let it go early it will float up a little and then come down 20 feet in front of you.
As fun as it was, the idea of handing a bunch of drunk people paper lanterns with live flames inside was a breathtakingly stupid idea. I'm not a terribly litigious sort, but even I can't imagine these being legal in urban areas.
posted by 8dot3 at 11:49 AM on January 4, 2011
Not condoning it, but if you take off from the edge of the sea and have an off shore wind, it would be pretty safe.
posted by d4nj450n at 11:52 AM on January 4, 2011
posted by d4nj450n at 11:52 AM on January 4, 2011
Don't do this.
Seriously, it's so disrespectful to the people who might be injured or have property destroyed, and you're just doing it because it looks neat, not because it's a centuries-old cultural and religious tradition. The risk/benefit analysis does not come out in your favor.
If you want to do cool things with fire without risking other people's safety and property, I suggest going to Burning Man. There's a reason they have that out in the desert.
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:20 PM on January 4, 2011
Seriously, it's so disrespectful to the people who might be injured or have property destroyed, and you're just doing it because it looks neat, not because it's a centuries-old cultural and religious tradition. The risk/benefit analysis does not come out in your favor.
If you want to do cool things with fire without risking other people's safety and property, I suggest going to Burning Man. There's a reason they have that out in the desert.
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:20 PM on January 4, 2011
ljesse: "Could you tie a string to it? They might look neat as kites"
I would have thought that would almost guarantee them blowing over in the wind and burning up.
8dot3: " At the bottom of the lantern is a solid ring of something that has to be lit with a long-sustaining flame, like a small butane torch, because it takes a while for the ring to catch aflame. "
Usually it's just a wax paper wick that lights instantly with a normal match or lighter.
emilyw: "I've never heard of any problems using them in Western countries
I have."
I already mentioned the environmental problem. If non biodegradable materials like wire are used, of course it's littering (if no worse than losing a tent peg in a field). I thought it was clear that was referring to the unreferenced claim that they are likely to come down still on fire and set light to other things.
8dot3: " After it catches, you have to hold the lantern close to the ground until the gas fills the lantern, which is about five minutes."
You mean until the air inside is hot enough. It's usually obvious when they are ready to go.
The thing is, I've witnessed dozens and dozens of these things let off (often by drunk people) and I've never ever heard of issues with them being dangerous due to the lit wick. I can't condone the littering/environmental aspect, but I've seen nothing so far to suggest they cause fires. Of course, just because I've not heard about it in the news or experienced it myself doesn't mean it doesn't happen but it seems a lot of people are stating these supposed dangers as fact with no real basis.
posted by turkeyphant at 12:44 PM on January 4, 2011
I would have thought that would almost guarantee them blowing over in the wind and burning up.
8dot3: " At the bottom of the lantern is a solid ring of something that has to be lit with a long-sustaining flame, like a small butane torch, because it takes a while for the ring to catch aflame. "
Usually it's just a wax paper wick that lights instantly with a normal match or lighter.
emilyw: "I've never heard of any problems using them in Western countries
I have."
I already mentioned the environmental problem. If non biodegradable materials like wire are used, of course it's littering (if no worse than losing a tent peg in a field). I thought it was clear that was referring to the unreferenced claim that they are likely to come down still on fire and set light to other things.
8dot3: " After it catches, you have to hold the lantern close to the ground until the gas fills the lantern, which is about five minutes."
You mean until the air inside is hot enough. It's usually obvious when they are ready to go.
The thing is, I've witnessed dozens and dozens of these things let off (often by drunk people) and I've never ever heard of issues with them being dangerous due to the lit wick. I can't condone the littering/environmental aspect, but I've seen nothing so far to suggest they cause fires. Of course, just because I've not heard about it in the news or experienced it myself doesn't mean it doesn't happen but it seems a lot of people are stating these supposed dangers as fact with no real basis.
posted by turkeyphant at 12:44 PM on January 4, 2011
I've seen nothing so far to suggest they cause fires
Other than the news report already linked in this thread? Or this one? Or this one?
Then there is the hazard to animals.
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:57 PM on January 4, 2011
Other than the news report already linked in this thread? Or this one? Or this one?
Then there is the hazard to animals.
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:57 PM on January 4, 2011
They do it off the beach in Hawaii. Could you maybe organize something out at Coney Island?
posted by MsMolly at 1:50 PM on January 4, 2011
posted by MsMolly at 1:50 PM on January 4, 2011
There are biodegradable lanterns available without the cow killing wire and that use bamboo for the frames. If you're sensible, sober, there's no wind and you're not in a built up area or near an airport there's little risk involved.
posted by IanMorr at 2:35 PM on January 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by IanMorr at 2:35 PM on January 4, 2011 [1 favorite]
Do it at sea using biodegradeable lanterns. I live near a lake and have considered this option. They are magical.
posted by theora55 at 12:41 AM on January 5, 2011
posted by theora55 at 12:41 AM on January 5, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
You could achieve a similar effect by putting said LED inside of a helium balloon, maybe? It's not quite the same, I realize.
posted by Oktober at 9:18 AM on January 4, 2011