remember moves
December 19, 2010 7:18 AM Subscribe
How do you remember movements, like dance moves?
Some people are very good at remembering and assimilating physical kinesthetic movements. These can be dance moves, martial arts forms, sports tactics, etc. I am not one of these people. I'm trying to get an idea of how they do it, i.e., what mental process they use. I'm familiar with memory techniques, mnemonics, for other things like memorizing lists or other visual material, but they aren't directly applicable.
To give you an idea of what I'm looking for I asked this of a Taichi teacher, friend of mine. And he said that what he does is that he imagines himself doing the move, seeing from his eyes, feeling from his body, where his eyes can see more than he usually can. Then he separately tries break a form a down into phrases, and contrasts and compares different pieces of the form for similar phrases. In my opinion he is very good at getting individual pieces down but can somehow get sequences confused. So he has a good strategy for part of the process.
So if you've got a talent for this or learned how to do this please share your insights.
Some people are very good at remembering and assimilating physical kinesthetic movements. These can be dance moves, martial arts forms, sports tactics, etc. I am not one of these people. I'm trying to get an idea of how they do it, i.e., what mental process they use. I'm familiar with memory techniques, mnemonics, for other things like memorizing lists or other visual material, but they aren't directly applicable.
To give you an idea of what I'm looking for I asked this of a Taichi teacher, friend of mine. And he said that what he does is that he imagines himself doing the move, seeing from his eyes, feeling from his body, where his eyes can see more than he usually can. Then he separately tries break a form a down into phrases, and contrasts and compares different pieces of the form for similar phrases. In my opinion he is very good at getting individual pieces down but can somehow get sequences confused. So he has a good strategy for part of the process.
So if you've got a talent for this or learned how to do this please share your insights.
I'm like you. This is really hard for me. The thing that helps me the most is breaking the series down to the smallest possible movements, and then practicing each successive small movement several times, until I can do them perfectly 3 times in a row. Then I add on the next movement. This brings me to a point where I have memorized all the subdivisions of a larger movement. Then I repeat the whole movement slowly, until I have it down 3 times perfectly. If I get it wrong, then I go back and repeat the subdivision that I got wrong. And so on, I keep building up the little blocks. It sounds more tedious than it is, but that's not to say that it isn't somewhat tedious. Very effective, though.
posted by bardophile at 7:27 AM on December 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by bardophile at 7:27 AM on December 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
People who do these kinesthetic processes well do them over and over and over. When I was a serious ballet dancer in high school, I was at class 5 or 6 days a week doing different combinations of movements. Barre exercises can serve drills of individual steps that you will be doing in the center, and then center exercise drill steps in combination. After enough time spent repeating the act of learning a combination of moves and performing them shortly after that, I developed the ability to hear and see something once or twice and do it.
My little brother, a black belt in karate, follows a similar training pattern where he goes to class 5 or 6 days a week, drills "basics" like punching a certain way in a certain direction, and then learns a bunch of those moves in tandem so that he can repeat them for an exam.
I don't know if he does any visualizing or separating of phrases as a martial artist. I know he writes things down so he can remember them (it seems to be a very "name oriented" process). In my experience, time spent analyzing something rather than actually doing it was not time well spent.
posted by ChuraChura at 7:33 AM on December 19, 2010
My little brother, a black belt in karate, follows a similar training pattern where he goes to class 5 or 6 days a week, drills "basics" like punching a certain way in a certain direction, and then learns a bunch of those moves in tandem so that he can repeat them for an exam.
I don't know if he does any visualizing or separating of phrases as a martial artist. I know he writes things down so he can remember them (it seems to be a very "name oriented" process). In my experience, time spent analyzing something rather than actually doing it was not time well spent.
posted by ChuraChura at 7:33 AM on December 19, 2010
In terms of the individual moves - a fencing parry, a dance step, whatever - I learn them by copying them, having them broken down into bits to make sure you're in the right place, and just repeating and repeating until they're automatic.
Those individual moves are learnt with names to them, and the names can be learnt together as part of a list to create a dance/drill/whatever. So for a fencing drill with three different parries in it, I would remember a list like "septime, carte, octave" (or whatever) - knowing those particular parries without thinking, I'm remembering the list of names. Same with all the types of dance I've learnt - the individual moves have names, and can be linked in a list. So really I am learning them in a very standard, memory technique sort of way.
The other thing is that particular moves flow together, in both dance or martial arts; once you have made a particular move, you're in a certain position. From there, some moves will be very easy, some will be very hard, and for best flow (both in terms of dance and kicking your opponent's arse) you're not looking at every possible move you know - you're looking at a set of moves that flow from where you are.
And then of course you get to the point where a sequence is so ingrained that it no longer goes through a conscious thought process.
posted by Coobeastie at 7:33 AM on December 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
Those individual moves are learnt with names to them, and the names can be learnt together as part of a list to create a dance/drill/whatever. So for a fencing drill with three different parries in it, I would remember a list like "septime, carte, octave" (or whatever) - knowing those particular parries without thinking, I'm remembering the list of names. Same with all the types of dance I've learnt - the individual moves have names, and can be linked in a list. So really I am learning them in a very standard, memory technique sort of way.
The other thing is that particular moves flow together, in both dance or martial arts; once you have made a particular move, you're in a certain position. From there, some moves will be very easy, some will be very hard, and for best flow (both in terms of dance and kicking your opponent's arse) you're not looking at every possible move you know - you're looking at a set of moves that flow from where you are.
And then of course you get to the point where a sequence is so ingrained that it no longer goes through a conscious thought process.
posted by Coobeastie at 7:33 AM on December 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
Practice specifically your interest. I don't think there's a general skill you can learn beyond the most mild skill transfer--I think it's highly domain-specific. Ten years of martial arts, and I can pick up a complicated, multi-step, joint lock and throw in thirty seconds. I briefly tried a couple different martial arts, and I was quickly far ahead of the other white belts.
But, I tried taking multiple dance classes, and I was TERRIBLE. I couldn't keep track of anything, couldn't remember anything, had no rhythm, no timing, every class I was back at square one. Everyone was learning three times as fast as me.
posted by zeek321 at 7:37 AM on December 19, 2010
But, I tried taking multiple dance classes, and I was TERRIBLE. I couldn't keep track of anything, couldn't remember anything, had no rhythm, no timing, every class I was back at square one. Everyone was learning three times as fast as me.
posted by zeek321 at 7:37 AM on December 19, 2010
But yes, build a movement vocabulary (A, B, C), practice the pieces, and string them together. One trick is having a vocabulary for the transitions, too. An A-B transition is a different beast than a A-C transition. Practice your scales.
posted by zeek321 at 7:39 AM on December 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by zeek321 at 7:39 AM on December 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: ChuraChura: you said that you developed the ability to hear and see something once or twice and do it. Do you have any insight into what you're doing in your head when you do that?
What are you visualizing? Are you seeing the entire sequence as a movie? Are you seeing a story board with different frames? You said you're hearing it, are you remembering it as a melody of movements? What is important to you as you're hearing/seeing the sequence?
These could be during the memorization or during the enactment and you're probably not conscious of it now, but if you focus you might have access to what you're doing.
posted by blueyellow at 7:45 AM on December 19, 2010
What are you visualizing? Are you seeing the entire sequence as a movie? Are you seeing a story board with different frames? You said you're hearing it, are you remembering it as a melody of movements? What is important to you as you're hearing/seeing the sequence?
These could be during the memorization or during the enactment and you're probably not conscious of it now, but if you focus you might have access to what you're doing.
posted by blueyellow at 7:45 AM on December 19, 2010
Response by poster: Thanks everyone for their experience and contribution. I agree breaking things down into pieces and practicing them is critical for even getting in the door. I'm curious how the people that can do it fast do it. For example, after learning mnemonics I know how to learn a list of a 100 objects in probably 20 minutes and retain it for months or years- able to recite it forwards and backwards. If there is a system.. things can get easier.
posted by blueyellow at 7:48 AM on December 19, 2010
posted by blueyellow at 7:48 AM on December 19, 2010
Practice is at the root of it, because that does build muscle memory. Note, of course, that the muscles themselves don't actually remember anything, but that it is a part of the brain that remembers movements subconsciously. When we learn to walk, we have to think about every stabilization move and lifting the leg and gingerly putting it forward, etc., etc. Those things eventually become procedures stored in that section of the brain so that we just have to think "walk" and it happens.
Dance is kind of like learning to play a musical instrument. You have to learn to do physical things, and you have to learn to time them to a beat, and then once you have that all down, you start to get into the stylizations and flourishes.
So, one way to try would be to write yourself some dance sheet-music. Separate the dance steps into as granular steps as you need, and then just do them. As you start getting to the point that you don't have to check your notes anymore, start doing it with the beat. Or, start doing it with the beat from the start, and just go as slowly as necessary to not break rhythm.
posted by gjc at 7:49 AM on December 19, 2010
Dance is kind of like learning to play a musical instrument. You have to learn to do physical things, and you have to learn to time them to a beat, and then once you have that all down, you start to get into the stylizations and flourishes.
So, one way to try would be to write yourself some dance sheet-music. Separate the dance steps into as granular steps as you need, and then just do them. As you start getting to the point that you don't have to check your notes anymore, start doing it with the beat. Or, start doing it with the beat from the start, and just go as slowly as necessary to not break rhythm.
posted by gjc at 7:49 AM on December 19, 2010
Like other people mentioned, it about having a vocabulary for the movements. It's like learning a dialogue in another language. If you speak Spanish, learning a small dialogue wouldn't be very difficult. If you speak no Spanish and you don't have the literal vocabulary, then you have to do it all phonetically- much more difficult.
It's a lot easier to say "pas de chat" than "jump in the air, moving to the side, right foot up than left foot, right down first than left."
posted by raccoon409 at 7:49 AM on December 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
It's a lot easier to say "pas de chat" than "jump in the air, moving to the side, right foot up than left foot, right down first than left."
posted by raccoon409 at 7:49 AM on December 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
So when my ballet teacher would tell us the combination the first time, pretty much everyone would do it along with her, full out. The second time we'd go through it with music and you'd be "marking" it - sort of half doing it, maybe replacing some of the movements with simple hand motions corresponding to it. It wasn't really visualizing the movements - there was still a muscle memory component - but it was not a tiring component.
posted by ChuraChura at 7:56 AM on December 19, 2010
posted by ChuraChura at 7:56 AM on December 19, 2010
Response by poster: ChuraChura: that's very interesting. So you are anchoring movements to pieces of the music that way.
posted by blueyellow at 8:00 AM on December 19, 2010
posted by blueyellow at 8:00 AM on December 19, 2010
I am terrible at this and am always asking people for their advice on it. Not all of that advice has done a great deal for me but it's all things that have apparently worked for other people.
1. Identifying the component parts of the moves and having names for them. Then when you see someone doing the Wurfle Throw, instead of just trying to remember the whole thing as an abstract movement, you know it's a Bunkle Jump with a left arm twist and a Reverse Nadger at the end. If you already have tricks for list memorisation you can use them here.
2. Identifying common groups of the base elements, learning them, naming them, recognising them. Then instead of having to learn a dance sequence of 30 moves, you may only have to learn a sequence of 10 of your larger groups.
3. Rehearsing a long sequence backwards. That is, do the last move. Then do the last two moves. Then do the last three moves... and so on. As a bonus, this means that if you lose your way while performing, you should find it easier to pick up in the middle - you haven't accidentally learned the routine so that you can only do it from the beginning.
4. Practicing with a mirror. This should help your brain pick up on the relationship between what you see (whether yourself or your partner or an instructor demonstrating), and what you feel when you perform the move. As an alternative, use a video camera.
5. Repetition. Just train the move a ridiculous amount of times. Train it while brushing your teeth, train it at the bus stop.
6. Understanding. If you understand exactly WHY this move causes grown men to spontaneously fall on their faces, or why this dance move is good for linking this thing with this other thing, then that will make it much easier to remember.
posted by emilyw at 8:00 AM on December 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
1. Identifying the component parts of the moves and having names for them. Then when you see someone doing the Wurfle Throw, instead of just trying to remember the whole thing as an abstract movement, you know it's a Bunkle Jump with a left arm twist and a Reverse Nadger at the end. If you already have tricks for list memorisation you can use them here.
2. Identifying common groups of the base elements, learning them, naming them, recognising them. Then instead of having to learn a dance sequence of 30 moves, you may only have to learn a sequence of 10 of your larger groups.
3. Rehearsing a long sequence backwards. That is, do the last move. Then do the last two moves. Then do the last three moves... and so on. As a bonus, this means that if you lose your way while performing, you should find it easier to pick up in the middle - you haven't accidentally learned the routine so that you can only do it from the beginning.
4. Practicing with a mirror. This should help your brain pick up on the relationship between what you see (whether yourself or your partner or an instructor demonstrating), and what you feel when you perform the move. As an alternative, use a video camera.
5. Repetition. Just train the move a ridiculous amount of times. Train it while brushing your teeth, train it at the bus stop.
6. Understanding. If you understand exactly WHY this move causes grown men to spontaneously fall on their faces, or why this dance move is good for linking this thing with this other thing, then that will make it much easier to remember.
posted by emilyw at 8:00 AM on December 19, 2010 [2 favorites]
When learning new dance combinations and routines, I rely heavily on watching somebody else doing it first. Visualizing the moves as they flow together - breaking down the complexity into simpler parts while simultaneously counting 1,2,3,4,1,2,...- really helps me to learn the steps. Then, not only am I visualizing, but also associating a move or position with a number (the count). Because my memory is terrible, if I wait several days or a week without practicing the moves, I'll be really rusty the next time I try to reproduce them. So for me, it is a combination of visualization with counting to learn, and practicing in order to remember. My current position as graduate student lab slave does have the silver lining of giving me plenty of hours where I am free to go through steps in place and also to tap (as inconspicuously as possible) while at my workspace!
posted by genekelly'srollerskates at 8:01 AM on December 19, 2010
posted by genekelly'srollerskates at 8:01 AM on December 19, 2010
When I was active in martial arts, we had to learn forms- basically a set of predefined moves that all participants at a certain level could be graded against when we wanted to get a better belt. Our instructor, who also happened to be a HS math teacher which helped, taught us forms in smaller chunks. For instance, the first level forms typically consisted of 4-6 very similar sequence of moves (say, punch punch, kick repeated 5 times), just with a variation of where you punched (low, high, medium) and which direction you're going (east,west,north,south). Instead of learning all 30 moves in one very long, non-cohesive unit, learning the form in smaller, cohesive portions made remembering the form much easier. If there was repetition, I found it far easier to remember section 1 & 3 was high punch, 2 & 4 low punch, and 5 medium punch instead of remember every sequence individually. Remembering these forms didn't take long at all because you don't memorize each of the 5 portions independently, but rather as variations.
For the longer, more complicated forms, the same concept still applied of breaking the form up inter smaller chunks. Typically, we'd memorize each sequence ending with a high energy movement. Just as above, memorizing smaller pieces of the form was much easier and quicker than trying to memorize the form as a whole.
posted by jmd82 at 8:30 AM on December 19, 2010
For the longer, more complicated forms, the same concept still applied of breaking the form up inter smaller chunks. Typically, we'd memorize each sequence ending with a high energy movement. Just as above, memorizing smaller pieces of the form was much easier and quicker than trying to memorize the form as a whole.
posted by jmd82 at 8:30 AM on December 19, 2010
I would separate out muscle memory as being related to but separate from being able to learn a sequence of movements and reproduce it in the next two minutes. Also that learning a sequence of steps in dance or tai chi is different from learning things like sports tactics where there's more of a reaction component to what's happening. David Foster Wallace (heart) writes about "the kinesthetic sense" as perhaps applied to Roger Federer (see middle of p3, but honestly the whole thing is worth reading).
I will nth that practice is key, and that context is relevant-- if you're trying to learn how to learn short combinations in a dance or whatever class, you only really have a minute or two to get the order down (usually you get two repetitions of a combo from a dance teacher) whereas if you're trying to learn a routine that runs a few minutes you'll be able to use different strategies to memorize the steps. Oh I see speed is your focus-- I think that the usual chunking or grouping of steps is helpful, and when I had to reproduce something right away that I just used a short series of words (step names) and not visualization.
posted by tangaroo at 8:32 AM on December 19, 2010
I will nth that practice is key, and that context is relevant-- if you're trying to learn how to learn short combinations in a dance or whatever class, you only really have a minute or two to get the order down (usually you get two repetitions of a combo from a dance teacher) whereas if you're trying to learn a routine that runs a few minutes you'll be able to use different strategies to memorize the steps. Oh I see speed is your focus-- I think that the usual chunking or grouping of steps is helpful, and when I had to reproduce something right away that I just used a short series of words (step names) and not visualization.
posted by tangaroo at 8:32 AM on December 19, 2010
Learning dance came easily for me. I was able to remember steps after being taught only a few times.
But as a dance teacher, I instruct kids who might struggle. Some things that help:
1) breaking down steps into very very small chunks. Once the students are comfortable that small chunk a, we move on to the small chunk b. Then we piece together a and b until that become "part 1." Once the student are a-ok with "part 1," we move on to chunks c and d (part 2). Put parts 1 and 2 together, and you have mastered a step!
2) Call and respond. I will say the first part of the count and the students will have to say the second part. Once they are comfortable with that, I switch it up. They have to say the first part and I will say the second part.
3) I will have kids sit down and we "sing" the steps to music. The can memorize the count independent of the movements.
4) Dance with your hands to memorize footwork. I don't know why it works, but it does.
5) I have the students count while I dance and they sit and watch.
6) Counting while dancing seems to help.
7) I will give handouts of the steps that I teach to students and write little notes to help (ex. r's and l's for right and left foot, shift weight to back leg here). If you could get a copy of the steps printed out for you, it might help.
Basically, whatever dance you're learning is likely done to an 8 count. Just take it one 8 count at a time and try to have fun!
posted by Hop123 at 8:37 AM on December 19, 2010
But as a dance teacher, I instruct kids who might struggle. Some things that help:
1) breaking down steps into very very small chunks. Once the students are comfortable that small chunk a, we move on to the small chunk b. Then we piece together a and b until that become "part 1." Once the student are a-ok with "part 1," we move on to chunks c and d (part 2). Put parts 1 and 2 together, and you have mastered a step!
2) Call and respond. I will say the first part of the count and the students will have to say the second part. Once they are comfortable with that, I switch it up. They have to say the first part and I will say the second part.
3) I will have kids sit down and we "sing" the steps to music. The can memorize the count independent of the movements.
4) Dance with your hands to memorize footwork. I don't know why it works, but it does.
5) I have the students count while I dance and they sit and watch.
6) Counting while dancing seems to help.
7) I will give handouts of the steps that I teach to students and write little notes to help (ex. r's and l's for right and left foot, shift weight to back leg here). If you could get a copy of the steps printed out for you, it might help.
Basically, whatever dance you're learning is likely done to an 8 count. Just take it one 8 count at a time and try to have fun!
posted by Hop123 at 8:37 AM on December 19, 2010
Here are some more tricks I've remembered:
I have better memory for music than I do for physical stuff. So if I'm memorising a complicated juggling pattern, I exaggerate it until the rhythm is really obvious and then it somehow clicks for me. At that point, I can often reproduce the physical thing by attempting to reproduce the rhythm. I think it may help to stop and vocalise the rhythm - "Aha! it goes Um-cha-cha Um tiddly bonk!"
If it's choreography that you're learning, then I think it helps to understand the structure of the underlying music and how the choreography works with that. If you know that the music goes A-B-A2-C-A and that it starts gently and builds to a moment of great tension HERE which is then resolved like THIS and then we recapitulate A... then for example you may understand that this piece of choreography in A2 is meant to be reminiscent of that bit in A, only using much more of the width and height of the stage, and appearing much more dynamic.
Once you've done this, it can be much easier to hear the music and remember the choreography that goes with it.
posted by emilyw at 8:38 AM on December 19, 2010
I have better memory for music than I do for physical stuff. So if I'm memorising a complicated juggling pattern, I exaggerate it until the rhythm is really obvious and then it somehow clicks for me. At that point, I can often reproduce the physical thing by attempting to reproduce the rhythm. I think it may help to stop and vocalise the rhythm - "Aha! it goes Um-cha-cha Um tiddly bonk!"
If it's choreography that you're learning, then I think it helps to understand the structure of the underlying music and how the choreography works with that. If you know that the music goes A-B-A2-C-A and that it starts gently and builds to a moment of great tension HERE which is then resolved like THIS and then we recapitulate A... then for example you may understand that this piece of choreography in A2 is meant to be reminiscent of that bit in A, only using much more of the width and height of the stage, and appearing much more dynamic.
Once you've done this, it can be much easier to hear the music and remember the choreography that goes with it.
posted by emilyw at 8:38 AM on December 19, 2010
I did Irish dance in high school; we all had nicknames for different moves, and you'd hear girls whispering the nicknames to themselves ("and one and two and over two three, back back back up hop back hop over two three") in time to the music. Also, our teacher used a limited selection of music when teaching us something new. There are still tunes I associate not just with a particular type of dancing (treble jigs, say) but with specific footwork sequences.
posted by SMPA at 9:18 AM on December 19, 2010
posted by SMPA at 9:18 AM on December 19, 2010
I agree with others who have mentioned counting while dancing. Recently my boyfriend and I took a ballroom dancing class. I was a competitive ice dancer and jazz dancer for years, and while I hadn't danced at all in ages, I was instantly able to pick up the steps that the instructor showed us. My boyfriend, on the other hand, was much like you (you are not alone!). The thing that helped him the most was if I counted the beats out loud while we danced, so that he could associate a certain step or position with a certain beat. He could eventually figure out what series of steps were correlated to, say, the 4-5-6 in an 8-count, and was able to string together the bits of the count into a whole series of moves. As to how I can pick up dance steps after being shown them once, I figure that because I had been doing that since I was a kid, I'd developed some sort quick-uptake ability. I don't really do any visualization; it's just straight physical mimicry.
Also nthing practice. Practice is your friend.
posted by just_ducky at 9:22 AM on December 19, 2010
Also nthing practice. Practice is your friend.
posted by just_ducky at 9:22 AM on December 19, 2010
So, the martial art that I study is really complicated. A lot of angles and specific things in practice.
For the first year, I always felt lost and had a terrible time memorizing things. But now I absorb things pretty quickly, with the basics down in no more than 2 tries, and after that, just practicing details.
Here's how I did it:
1. Like everyone is saying, break it down into small pieces. Give moves and sections nicknames, and talk yourself through them as you practice ("Twist in, roll over, punch!")
2. Practice movements in this order:
a. Positioning first! Go slow. If you find you keep putting certain parts in incorrect positioning, stop, put it in the right position, then lightly slap/tap the body part to bring awareness there, then repeat the small section again. Keep doing this until you naturally go to the correct position, and move on.
b. Movement second! You've mastered position #1 & #2, so now practice on HOW you move from 1 to 2 and what that looks like.
c. Timing third! Now that you're at the correct places, have the correct path from 1 & 2, work on timing.
3. Being able to watch an example of the movement helps a lot. Video is nice because you can repeat the section you're working on, but having someone in person is great because you can watch from multiple angles, and ask them about how they're shifting weight, timing, etc.
4. End by casually practicing whatever section you're comfortable with, even if it's a tiny section. If it's a series of movements, ideally you're practicing the flow of them into each other.
It becomes easier and easier to pick up new movements as you become more kinesthetically versed. Whatever movement art you're practicing generally moves in similar ways so that becomes easier, and you find in many other types of movement crossover points ("Oh, this is just like this other thing I do, except to the left. Got it!").
For longer term practice, watch very closely people who can do the activity well. Start looking at specifics ("What angle are their toes? Is that a half-beat pause for the arms while the legs are already moving?") and seeing if you can mimic them. If the person is available, you can ask them about these things as well.
These things might be functional or simply personal variations, but they're worth exploring either way, as sometimes you find different movements become easier to do, have more "pop", flow easier, etc. This is where you're talking about mastering a movement.
posted by yeloson at 10:32 AM on December 19, 2010
For the first year, I always felt lost and had a terrible time memorizing things. But now I absorb things pretty quickly, with the basics down in no more than 2 tries, and after that, just practicing details.
Here's how I did it:
1. Like everyone is saying, break it down into small pieces. Give moves and sections nicknames, and talk yourself through them as you practice ("Twist in, roll over, punch!")
2. Practice movements in this order:
a. Positioning first! Go slow. If you find you keep putting certain parts in incorrect positioning, stop, put it in the right position, then lightly slap/tap the body part to bring awareness there, then repeat the small section again. Keep doing this until you naturally go to the correct position, and move on.
b. Movement second! You've mastered position #1 & #2, so now practice on HOW you move from 1 to 2 and what that looks like.
c. Timing third! Now that you're at the correct places, have the correct path from 1 & 2, work on timing.
3. Being able to watch an example of the movement helps a lot. Video is nice because you can repeat the section you're working on, but having someone in person is great because you can watch from multiple angles, and ask them about how they're shifting weight, timing, etc.
4. End by casually practicing whatever section you're comfortable with, even if it's a tiny section. If it's a series of movements, ideally you're practicing the flow of them into each other.
It becomes easier and easier to pick up new movements as you become more kinesthetically versed. Whatever movement art you're practicing generally moves in similar ways so that becomes easier, and you find in many other types of movement crossover points ("Oh, this is just like this other thing I do, except to the left. Got it!").
For longer term practice, watch very closely people who can do the activity well. Start looking at specifics ("What angle are their toes? Is that a half-beat pause for the arms while the legs are already moving?") and seeing if you can mimic them. If the person is available, you can ask them about these things as well.
These things might be functional or simply personal variations, but they're worth exploring either way, as sometimes you find different movements become easier to do, have more "pop", flow easier, etc. This is where you're talking about mastering a movement.
posted by yeloson at 10:32 AM on December 19, 2010
Before you can get to the point where you watch someone do something, remember it, and do it yourself later, you need to first be able to watch someone and do what they are doing.
Many people can't do this, although I think with practice and attention many of them could. If you are one of them, this idea of visualizing it as movie won't help you be able to do what you are visualizing.
Personally, I repeat things until I get them into my kinesthetic memory. Things that are done to particular music are usually practiced to that music, and the mind naturally forms an association between the two -- there's no "thought process", at least in the way I generally think of it. Actively trying to think about "What am I doing right now?" makes it very hard for me to recall the sequence of movements, although there are sometimes names for certain movements that I keep track of, but only when I have trouble remembering things in other ways.
One thing about kinesthetic memory, it is very difficult to keep track of things that are similar to other movements that I've done a different way for years in different contexts. For example, I was learning a dance that had a movement at one point called a grapevine step, but in this dance it started by moving the foot in a different direction than I had learned it in the past -- I had to specifically tell myself as that part approached which direction to move my foot at the beginning, and even then it was difficult to catch myself and not automatically do the movement I was most practiced at.
I think that the ways people remember sports tactics would be entirely different, although I don't know much about that.
If you could learn a list of 100 items, I don't see why you couldn't remember the names of the individual sequences of movements and do them in order. Maybe it's more that you don't remember the individual movements that make up those sequences? If so, I think memorizing might not be the right way to think about it -- if you have a list that says: dog, plate, car -- being able to know what those things are is based on seeing many different dogs, different plates, and different cars over the years. If you didn't have that, it wouldn't mean much more than a list which says: qizz, thttle, zqq. You need to have enough experience with what you are memorizing for it to have some meaning and sense to you.
posted by yohko at 11:22 AM on December 19, 2010
Many people can't do this, although I think with practice and attention many of them could. If you are one of them, this idea of visualizing it as movie won't help you be able to do what you are visualizing.
Personally, I repeat things until I get them into my kinesthetic memory. Things that are done to particular music are usually practiced to that music, and the mind naturally forms an association between the two -- there's no "thought process", at least in the way I generally think of it. Actively trying to think about "What am I doing right now?" makes it very hard for me to recall the sequence of movements, although there are sometimes names for certain movements that I keep track of, but only when I have trouble remembering things in other ways.
One thing about kinesthetic memory, it is very difficult to keep track of things that are similar to other movements that I've done a different way for years in different contexts. For example, I was learning a dance that had a movement at one point called a grapevine step, but in this dance it started by moving the foot in a different direction than I had learned it in the past -- I had to specifically tell myself as that part approached which direction to move my foot at the beginning, and even then it was difficult to catch myself and not automatically do the movement I was most practiced at.
I think that the ways people remember sports tactics would be entirely different, although I don't know much about that.
If you could learn a list of 100 items, I don't see why you couldn't remember the names of the individual sequences of movements and do them in order. Maybe it's more that you don't remember the individual movements that make up those sequences? If so, I think memorizing might not be the right way to think about it -- if you have a list that says: dog, plate, car -- being able to know what those things are is based on seeing many different dogs, different plates, and different cars over the years. If you didn't have that, it wouldn't mean much more than a list which says: qizz, thttle, zqq. You need to have enough experience with what you are memorizing for it to have some meaning and sense to you.
posted by yohko at 11:22 AM on December 19, 2010
I translate dance moves to words, and go through a dance repeatedly. People with good memories seem to do better, and I hope it improves my memory.
posted by theora55 at 11:59 AM on December 19, 2010
posted by theora55 at 11:59 AM on December 19, 2010
As someone who is learning the second highest level of square dancing right now, it has partly been about study away from dancing, and visualizing my part of any given call. Square dancing involves four couples, and calls have up to four different parts (there is always symmetry (or should be), so at least one person is doing your part, reflected across the setup). So when studying a call, I pick each different part and visualize where I'd be in the starting formation, then transitioning to intermediate formations, and then where I'd be at the end. When doing a new call in real time, it's hard to pull a given visualization out of my memory, but after it happens, I can often think back to the visualization and correlate it to what actually happened in real time, which leads to a deeper understanding of the call. The visualization and actual experience are usually similar, but in real life there's a person in front of you who you have to pass by, or someone is grabbing your hand, or something else is acting as a distraction.
So I guess I'd say practice is the most important thing, but the offline visualization part helps a lot too. Muscle memory plays a part too--I've gone away from square dancing for long periods of time, and the first time back, there would always be some call that I'd get through and then be amazed that I actually remembered it. If it had just been up to my conscious brain, I'd have been lost, but my subconscious and muscles would know exactly what to do.
There are hundreds of square dance calls, and modifiers ("concepts") which can change both the formation before a call and/or the call itself. It's a really fun, nerdy thing, and I keep meaning to make a post about it.
posted by A dead Quaker at 12:25 PM on December 19, 2010
So I guess I'd say practice is the most important thing, but the offline visualization part helps a lot too. Muscle memory plays a part too--I've gone away from square dancing for long periods of time, and the first time back, there would always be some call that I'd get through and then be amazed that I actually remembered it. If it had just been up to my conscious brain, I'd have been lost, but my subconscious and muscles would know exactly what to do.
There are hundreds of square dance calls, and modifiers ("concepts") which can change both the formation before a call and/or the call itself. It's a really fun, nerdy thing, and I keep meaning to make a post about it.
posted by A dead Quaker at 12:25 PM on December 19, 2010
I don't imagine this will help you do it yourself, but if you want to read an account of someone learning a whole new set of physical movements and all that was involved, I recommend the excellent Body and Soul: notebooks of an apprentice boxer, by anthropologist Loic Wacquant. It's a bit longwordy in places, but it's a really great book that talks about all the things involved in training to become a boxer (he stresses how much of it is outside of his direct mental control, and it being more like "playing chess with your guts" in the way you retrain and reform your instincts).
I won't derail, so if anyone wanted to talk to me / hear my ideas about remembering movements one does not do on purpose (or not entirely, anyway) memail me. ;)
posted by squishles at 1:11 PM on December 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
I won't derail, so if anyone wanted to talk to me / hear my ideas about remembering movements one does not do on purpose (or not entirely, anyway) memail me. ;)
posted by squishles at 1:11 PM on December 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
In order to learn my tai chi form our teacher broke it down (arms and legs learned separately for each move, with beginning and ending "snapshots in your head" pointed out). I, too, am not good at it, which is why it was good to do it - it took me more than a year of weekly classes to learn a four minute form.
One thing that helped: we came up with goofy names for most moves in the form. "Queen Elizabeth Wave Elevator" or "Fighter Plane Schwoop" - it didn't matter that the names were non-sensical, we had a common language to describe and remember the moves by. As someone who's much better with language than kinestetics, that was key for me.
posted by ldthomps at 2:30 PM on December 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
One thing that helped: we came up with goofy names for most moves in the form. "Queen Elizabeth Wave Elevator" or "Fighter Plane Schwoop" - it didn't matter that the names were non-sensical, we had a common language to describe and remember the moves by. As someone who's much better with language than kinestetics, that was key for me.
posted by ldthomps at 2:30 PM on December 19, 2010 [1 favorite]
I feel like I'm mostly repeating what others have said, but here's my own experience as a swing dancer (~4 years) and aikidoist (~8 months). I can't much remember all the frustration I went through years ago learning to dance, but I do know that my body awareness is much, much better now. Dance classes are easier to understand because I've learned a lot about how my body works, how movement works and is communicated to a partner. But most importantly, I've learned about how to watch a demonstration and pick up what I need to know. And that's made aikido apparently easier for me to learn.
Dancing was pretty much my first physical activity that involved moving in specific ways and directions, and also dealing with another person. So when I first started, I had lots of trouble with many moves, just getting the shape of them and figuring out where to go. I remember specifically having trouble with passes because I was thinking about landmarks in the room ("okay, so she passes between me and the doors") instead of ego-centric directions ("okay, so she passes to my right side"), and you can see how one of those ways is dependent on orientation.
A great way to fix that is to really focus on those ego-centric directions. Either the teacher or the student can push that, and there are several techniques to use. You can work on the shape of the move without the footwork, lead/follow, or any of that. You can slowly shuffle through the move to get an idea of orientation at key points. You can stop the move at key points to check in on shape and positioning, then smooth it out. Then you can try to honestly lead/follow the move to get the feeling of it. Taking out orientation confusion when demonstrating a move is also important. A move shown facing you or at an angle requires mental translation. A move seen from behind can be copied "verbatim".
Vocabulary is also a big part of it. Before you know moves, you need to learn what they are. You can only hold so much in your head, and when your chunk size is small (individual movements), you can get easily overwhelmed. "Kick out, step behind, step open, step in front" is a good bit to remember. Once you can wrap that all up with the label "fall of the log", it frees up your mind to handle other things. You know that move, and you're dealing with a larger chunk.
And the more you get the fundamentals of the art, the easier it gets because movements make sense. The comment above about "playing chess with your guts" reminds me of reading articles comparing how chess masters and computers play. A computer will consider every possible move to see which is best. A human will only consider moves from a vastly smaller space, because those are the ones that make sense in the current context. With dancing, I know that to get from A to B, I need to prepare, I need to build up some energy to clearly direct my partner to do something or go somewhere. So I lead into those moves in a way that makes sense, I don't just randomly sling my partner around without warning, and everything works so much better. With Aikido, I'm learning many similar things, like how a gentle technique stems from being in a situation where you can give a serious attack, movement and placement is everything. So I try to move off the line of attack and establish my own, and everything works so much better.
I can go on and on about learning choreography, teaching group classes, private lessons, and the wacky-to-me ways I've seen others learn, and even how this has helped me with Jungle Speed, but I'll stop there.
posted by cardioid at 5:09 PM on December 19, 2010
Dancing was pretty much my first physical activity that involved moving in specific ways and directions, and also dealing with another person. So when I first started, I had lots of trouble with many moves, just getting the shape of them and figuring out where to go. I remember specifically having trouble with passes because I was thinking about landmarks in the room ("okay, so she passes between me and the doors") instead of ego-centric directions ("okay, so she passes to my right side"), and you can see how one of those ways is dependent on orientation.
A great way to fix that is to really focus on those ego-centric directions. Either the teacher or the student can push that, and there are several techniques to use. You can work on the shape of the move without the footwork, lead/follow, or any of that. You can slowly shuffle through the move to get an idea of orientation at key points. You can stop the move at key points to check in on shape and positioning, then smooth it out. Then you can try to honestly lead/follow the move to get the feeling of it. Taking out orientation confusion when demonstrating a move is also important. A move shown facing you or at an angle requires mental translation. A move seen from behind can be copied "verbatim".
Vocabulary is also a big part of it. Before you know moves, you need to learn what they are. You can only hold so much in your head, and when your chunk size is small (individual movements), you can get easily overwhelmed. "Kick out, step behind, step open, step in front" is a good bit to remember. Once you can wrap that all up with the label "fall of the log", it frees up your mind to handle other things. You know that move, and you're dealing with a larger chunk.
And the more you get the fundamentals of the art, the easier it gets because movements make sense. The comment above about "playing chess with your guts" reminds me of reading articles comparing how chess masters and computers play. A computer will consider every possible move to see which is best. A human will only consider moves from a vastly smaller space, because those are the ones that make sense in the current context. With dancing, I know that to get from A to B, I need to prepare, I need to build up some energy to clearly direct my partner to do something or go somewhere. So I lead into those moves in a way that makes sense, I don't just randomly sling my partner around without warning, and everything works so much better. With Aikido, I'm learning many similar things, like how a gentle technique stems from being in a situation where you can give a serious attack, movement and placement is everything. So I try to move off the line of attack and establish my own, and everything works so much better.
I can go on and on about learning choreography, teaching group classes, private lessons, and the wacky-to-me ways I've seen others learn, and even how this has helped me with Jungle Speed, but I'll stop there.
posted by cardioid at 5:09 PM on December 19, 2010
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This question confounded me as well until I realized that I -- and just about everyone today -- has imprinted upon themselves a complex and, more importantly, artificial series of motions: typing. There are many ways to do so, like the one you mentioned, but the most important part is that you do it enough times that your body reacts without your conscious mind telling part X to move to space Y.
I don't know if this answers your question, exactly, but it is a very important part of the whole.
posted by griphus at 7:24 AM on December 19, 2010