Can I turn a used-to-be-romantic relationship in to a friendly one?
November 14, 2010 6:26 AM Subscribe
I'm in a difficult situation. Sudden long-distance relationship, interested ex-girlfriend and her boyfriend.
I moved back to my home city for personal reasons. My girlfriend was going to stay, but had to cut it short due to an emergency. She left a month ago and now we find ourselves in a long-distance relationship we didn't really prepare for... Without a concrete date we'll be back together again. It's hard, but I love her and don't want to break up.
Two weeks ago I went out for coffee with an ex-girlfriend from years ago. We get along great. I tell her about my girlfriend, she tells me about her boyfriend. We're both in ~2 year relationships. A big deal for both of us in our mid 20s, we think. We end up spending the whole day together just shooting the crap and watching the world around us. Sometimes we held hands.
The next day I write to tell her I enjoyed the day. She writes back saying I've been on her mind all day. I realize this can't be good, don't reply and try to get my mind on other things.
Yesterday she asked me out and we meet up for drinks. I jokingly bring up the topic of her boyfriend not being a jealous guy and she goes "No, he's really not." I can barely finish "That's great!" before she cuts in with "Last week he went through my messages and found yours and he got pissed. But it's ok and he wants to meet you".
Ok.
How can I be an adult in this situation? I really like her (mostly platonic, but it's difficult to separate her from romance completely... the mind wanders), but I have no desire to hurt my own or her relationship.
Should I cut her out of my life completely? Is it even possible to build a sincere friendship out of a romantic one? Are we going down a path with a foreseeably messy outcome?
I moved back to my home city for personal reasons. My girlfriend was going to stay, but had to cut it short due to an emergency. She left a month ago and now we find ourselves in a long-distance relationship we didn't really prepare for... Without a concrete date we'll be back together again. It's hard, but I love her and don't want to break up.
Two weeks ago I went out for coffee with an ex-girlfriend from years ago. We get along great. I tell her about my girlfriend, she tells me about her boyfriend. We're both in ~2 year relationships. A big deal for both of us in our mid 20s, we think. We end up spending the whole day together just shooting the crap and watching the world around us. Sometimes we held hands.
The next day I write to tell her I enjoyed the day. She writes back saying I've been on her mind all day. I realize this can't be good, don't reply and try to get my mind on other things.
Yesterday she asked me out and we meet up for drinks. I jokingly bring up the topic of her boyfriend not being a jealous guy and she goes "No, he's really not." I can barely finish "That's great!" before she cuts in with "Last week he went through my messages and found yours and he got pissed. But it's ok and he wants to meet you".
Ok.
How can I be an adult in this situation? I really like her (mostly platonic, but it's difficult to separate her from romance completely... the mind wanders), but I have no desire to hurt my own or her relationship.
Should I cut her out of my life completely? Is it even possible to build a sincere friendship out of a romantic one? Are we going down a path with a foreseeably messy outcome?
Best answer: Yes, you are going down a path with a foreseeably messy outcome.
You don't have to cut her out of your life completely, but I, personally, would not see her one-on-one (or meet her boyfriend, or anything that ups the intimacy level) for at least a couple months or until your own romantic relationship is on more stable footing. She can manage her own relationship, but you really need to focus on yours right now.
How much of that you tell her is another question. You could either just sort of be impossibly busy for the next couple months, or you could tell her, "Look, I had a lot of fun with you, and frankly it's not the kind of fun I need right now, so let's back off for a while so I can deal with my own stuff." It just depends on what kind of response you want - and what kind you think you'll get.
Long-distance relationships are weird, this time of year is emotionally fraught for everyone, and really it will work out better if you table the whole subject until spring.
posted by restless_nomad at 6:33 AM on November 14, 2010
You don't have to cut her out of your life completely, but I, personally, would not see her one-on-one (or meet her boyfriend, or anything that ups the intimacy level) for at least a couple months or until your own romantic relationship is on more stable footing. She can manage her own relationship, but you really need to focus on yours right now.
How much of that you tell her is another question. You could either just sort of be impossibly busy for the next couple months, or you could tell her, "Look, I had a lot of fun with you, and frankly it's not the kind of fun I need right now, so let's back off for a while so I can deal with my own stuff." It just depends on what kind of response you want - and what kind you think you'll get.
Long-distance relationships are weird, this time of year is emotionally fraught for everyone, and really it will work out better if you table the whole subject until spring.
posted by restless_nomad at 6:33 AM on November 14, 2010
Best answer: Alternatively, dump your girlfriend, hook up with the ex, take a beat down from her boyfriend, and spend 60% of your time assuaging your new girlfriend's guilt.
posted by vitabellosi at 6:34 AM on November 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by vitabellosi at 6:34 AM on November 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Holding hands with this ex-girlfriend is not okay. You should not be treating your current girlfriend like this, because you're being a pretty second-rate boyfriend, even if she hasn't found out about it. How would you like it if she were holding hands with her ex-boyfriend. You say you love her and then you're canoodling with an ex. I would re-evaluate what you want, and don't just chalk it up to being a mistake young people make. Plenty of people are in relationships when they are in their twenties with someone they purport to love and they manage not to hold hands with an ex-girlfriend.
posted by anniecat at 6:38 AM on November 14, 2010 [15 favorites]
posted by anniecat at 6:38 AM on November 14, 2010 [15 favorites]
In the words of Sassy Gay Friend, "What are you doing? What, what, what are you doing?" And I mean that sincerely. What are you hoping is going to happen here? You have a girlfriend, she has a boyfriend. You two had one great day together (which is easy to do with someone from your past you idolize who you don't have to share a bathroom with), and now what? Right now, looks like she's not interested in breaking up with her boyfriend, so it sounds like you should meet the boyfriend, pull back from her a little, and put your romantic energy into either fixing your own relationship or breaking up with your girlfriend and being single for awhile.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:39 AM on November 14, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:39 AM on November 14, 2010 [3 favorites]
BusyBusyBusy: "Holding hands? Really? If you were my boyfriend, I'd be pissed. Fess up to your girlfriend, hope she isn't pissed and then cut out the crap with the ex."
Mostly yes to all of this but...but if I were your girlfriend, I wouldn't want to hear about the holding hands part. In fact, I wouldn't want to hear that you spent the day with your ex only 2 weeks after I left. I'm not saying I'm a perfect sample set, but I wouldn't want to know any of this happened.
So...PLEASE stop with the ex. Stop everything. You don't need to be jumping into a weird-nebulous-pseudo-flirting thing. Just stay away from her.
But...holding hands? Why?
Oh, I'd also bet almost anything that her boyfriend is really, really angry and he wants to either scare you off to some extent or see what a non-threat you are (because you can be sure that's how you've been described to him). So I'd avoid that meeting for sure.
posted by dzaz at 6:39 AM on November 14, 2010 [10 favorites]
Mostly yes to all of this but...but if I were your girlfriend, I wouldn't want to hear about the holding hands part. In fact, I wouldn't want to hear that you spent the day with your ex only 2 weeks after I left. I'm not saying I'm a perfect sample set, but I wouldn't want to know any of this happened.
So...PLEASE stop with the ex. Stop everything. You don't need to be jumping into a weird-nebulous-pseudo-flirting thing. Just stay away from her.
But...holding hands? Why?
Oh, I'd also bet almost anything that her boyfriend is really, really angry and he wants to either scare you off to some extent or see what a non-threat you are (because you can be sure that's how you've been described to him). So I'd avoid that meeting for sure.
posted by dzaz at 6:39 AM on November 14, 2010 [10 favorites]
If you want to be with your ex, break up with your girlfriend NOW before there is any more contact with your ex. Then take your chances on your ex breaking up with her boyfriend.
If you don't want to be with your ex and want to continue to be with your girlfriend but cannot seem to hang out casually with your ex without holding hands and having your mind wander down various paths, then fuck yes quit seeing her completely.
posted by frobozz at 6:39 AM on November 14, 2010
If you don't want to be with your ex and want to continue to be with your girlfriend but cannot seem to hang out casually with your ex without holding hands and having your mind wander down various paths, then fuck yes quit seeing her completely.
posted by frobozz at 6:39 AM on November 14, 2010
Best answer: Your ex *seems* to still be into you. No matter how you feel about her, her feelings for you are going to put a different slant on the relationship.
Make it clear to her that you're only looking for friendship. Friendship is all you can safely get away with, even if you are interested in more. If she can't handle being just friends, then cut her out of your life. There's too much potential drama otherwise.
Maybe I'm paranoid, but why does her boyfriend want to meet you? I might be jumping to conclusions, but it could turn out to be a "keep away from my girlfriend/territory marking" sort of meeting. If you do meet him, though, this would be an ideal opportunity to make it clear to him, too, that you only want to be friends with your ex, nothing more. If he "got pissed", then he's jealous.
Regarding your current girlfriend, you owe it to her to be clear about your intentions in this situation with her. It's reasonable to have a "where are we going?" conversation when major changes are made in relationships. I'd also suggest that you tell your GF about the situation with your Ex and her boyfriend. That sort of secret has a way of catching up with you.
I think you need to decide for yourself what your intentions are. Do you see yourself wanting to get back with your Ex in a few months? Or do you want to stay with your current GF? Assuming that you want the first, you also have to deal with the fact that she might not want to get back with you and is in fact in another relationship. Assuming that you want the latter, be clear about that with your Ex right from the start. Jealous boyfriends have a nasty habit f causing problems, even over tiny little things.
posted by Solomon at 6:42 AM on November 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
Make it clear to her that you're only looking for friendship. Friendship is all you can safely get away with, even if you are interested in more. If she can't handle being just friends, then cut her out of your life. There's too much potential drama otherwise.
Maybe I'm paranoid, but why does her boyfriend want to meet you? I might be jumping to conclusions, but it could turn out to be a "keep away from my girlfriend/territory marking" sort of meeting. If you do meet him, though, this would be an ideal opportunity to make it clear to him, too, that you only want to be friends with your ex, nothing more. If he "got pissed", then he's jealous.
Regarding your current girlfriend, you owe it to her to be clear about your intentions in this situation with her. It's reasonable to have a "where are we going?" conversation when major changes are made in relationships. I'd also suggest that you tell your GF about the situation with your Ex and her boyfriend. That sort of secret has a way of catching up with you.
I think you need to decide for yourself what your intentions are. Do you see yourself wanting to get back with your Ex in a few months? Or do you want to stay with your current GF? Assuming that you want the first, you also have to deal with the fact that she might not want to get back with you and is in fact in another relationship. Assuming that you want the latter, be clear about that with your Ex right from the start. Jealous boyfriends have a nasty habit f causing problems, even over tiny little things.
posted by Solomon at 6:42 AM on November 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
Best answer: It's possible, but depends a lot on how well you define the boundaries of your friendship, and how willing the other person is to accept these boundaries. For starters... Avoid complaining about your girlfriend or discussing your current relationship at length. Don't spend the entire day together. And stop holding hands. A good thing to ask yourself when you're unsure of what's acceptable and what's not is WWMGT (what would my girlfriend think)? I think that's why it's so hard to remain friends with an ex. You have to redefine what's acceptable and what's not - and sometimes that's just too difficult and too painful.
posted by smokingmonkey at 6:50 AM on November 14, 2010
posted by smokingmonkey at 6:50 AM on November 14, 2010
Best answer: How can I be an adult in this situation? I really like her (mostly platonic, but it's difficult to separate her from romance completely... the mind wanders), but I have no desire to hurt my own or her relationship.
Be an adult and recognize that you two are one locked door (and maybe not even that) away from doing...something. Those feelings are ok, one can't always control one's feelings and sometimes the sheer chemistry can overpowering. It's the actions that matter, but the actions come from feelings, and you two don't sound like you're capable of navigating these murky waters.
Be an adult and recognize that and take steps to to prevent things from going further. There are just some people you're going to want to get intimate with, particularly ex's. It's chemistry or an old habit. Quit spending a lot of time with them. A coffee here and there, not a whole fricking day.
Be an adult and don't hold hands with your ex-girlfriend while you're both in committed, multiyear relationships.
Be an adult and realize that there no accidents and that you are not powerless in this situation. You are not a moth and she is not some flame you can't resist. Recognize that you have a choice to knock it off and keep things from going further, but that it's your choice. There is not fate or destiny, it's just you choosing to make the choice not to hurt your relationship.
Also this makes no sense:
I jokingly bring up the topic of her boyfriend not being a jealous guy and she goes "No, he's really not." I can barely finish "That's great!" before she cuts in with "Last week he went through my messages and found yours and he got pissed. But it's ok and he wants to meet you".
If he's not the jealous type, why was he getting pissed? What was tin he messages? Why was he going through her messages? Geeze, this sounds like a field of unnecessary drama, lined with all sorts of mines and you don't have a map to where they are. Those who work with bombs wear special suits designed to keep them alive, somehow, if a mine goes off, but there's always some sort of damage. Worth thinking about.
Something else to think about: What does your girlfriend know about all this? What, if anything, are you going to tell her about it? How would she react if she did know?
posted by nomadicink at 7:04 AM on November 14, 2010 [9 favorites]
Be an adult and recognize that you two are one locked door (and maybe not even that) away from doing...something. Those feelings are ok, one can't always control one's feelings and sometimes the sheer chemistry can overpowering. It's the actions that matter, but the actions come from feelings, and you two don't sound like you're capable of navigating these murky waters.
Be an adult and recognize that and take steps to to prevent things from going further. There are just some people you're going to want to get intimate with, particularly ex's. It's chemistry or an old habit. Quit spending a lot of time with them. A coffee here and there, not a whole fricking day.
Be an adult and don't hold hands with your ex-girlfriend while you're both in committed, multiyear relationships.
Be an adult and realize that there no accidents and that you are not powerless in this situation. You are not a moth and she is not some flame you can't resist. Recognize that you have a choice to knock it off and keep things from going further, but that it's your choice. There is not fate or destiny, it's just you choosing to make the choice not to hurt your relationship.
Also this makes no sense:
I jokingly bring up the topic of her boyfriend not being a jealous guy and she goes "No, he's really not." I can barely finish "That's great!" before she cuts in with "Last week he went through my messages and found yours and he got pissed. But it's ok and he wants to meet you".
If he's not the jealous type, why was he getting pissed? What was tin he messages? Why was he going through her messages? Geeze, this sounds like a field of unnecessary drama, lined with all sorts of mines and you don't have a map to where they are. Those who work with bombs wear special suits designed to keep them alive, somehow, if a mine goes off, but there's always some sort of damage. Worth thinking about.
Something else to think about: What does your girlfriend know about all this? What, if anything, are you going to tell her about it? How would she react if she did know?
posted by nomadicink at 7:04 AM on November 14, 2010 [9 favorites]
Best answer: What does your girlfriend know about all this?
I'd say it more like: Why are you telling this to us, rather than to your girlfriend?
You should be calling her up and saying "man, I had this weird experience the other day, and I need your help in figuring out what to do." I'm pretty sure you know exactly what she would say and how she would react, right? That right there tells you that you are on a path that isn't good for your relationship.
Now, that's ok if what you want is to break up with the long-distance girlfriend and hook up with the ex. It sure sounds like she would be into it, perhaps cheating on her boyfriend, or maybe they have an open relationship (which was my first thought when you said that he wanted to meet you), or maybe breaking up with him and getting back with you. Those are ok paths if that's what you want. If that's not what you want, then stop the hand holding and the intense emotional talks and the all-day intimacy.
posted by Forktine at 7:13 AM on November 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
I'd say it more like: Why are you telling this to us, rather than to your girlfriend?
You should be calling her up and saying "man, I had this weird experience the other day, and I need your help in figuring out what to do." I'm pretty sure you know exactly what she would say and how she would react, right? That right there tells you that you are on a path that isn't good for your relationship.
Now, that's ok if what you want is to break up with the long-distance girlfriend and hook up with the ex. It sure sounds like she would be into it, perhaps cheating on her boyfriend, or maybe they have an open relationship (which was my first thought when you said that he wanted to meet you), or maybe breaking up with him and getting back with you. Those are ok paths if that's what you want. If that's not what you want, then stop the hand holding and the intense emotional talks and the all-day intimacy.
posted by Forktine at 7:13 AM on November 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Look, when your relationship goes long-distance, things can get difficult. You miss the feeling of closeness and the intimacy of your relationship. It's relatively easy to gravitate toward that with someone who is right in front of you. It's how we are wired. Our brains get lots of happy hormones from connecting with people. However, this sounds like all kinds of drama and heartache. It doesn't sound like you and your girlfriend are on a break or that you even want to be on a break. You had a day of flirting with an old friend. It wasn't appropriate but draw the line now and you can step back from the brink.
I don't think you and ex can be friends. The holding hands, the other boyfriend... it's not good. If your ex contacts you to get together just tell her that you really can't and wish her well. I don't really think you need to bare your soul to your current girl, either. No good can come from that. Make plans to visit with your current right now and see if you can throw yourself into another hobby to distract yourself.
Sorry, long distance relationships really do suck. If you love this girl then stay committed to her. Two years is a lot of time to throw away on a moment of weakness.
posted by amanda at 7:25 AM on November 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
I don't think you and ex can be friends. The holding hands, the other boyfriend... it's not good. If your ex contacts you to get together just tell her that you really can't and wish her well. I don't really think you need to bare your soul to your current girl, either. No good can come from that. Make plans to visit with your current right now and see if you can throw yourself into another hobby to distract yourself.
Sorry, long distance relationships really do suck. If you love this girl then stay committed to her. Two years is a lot of time to throw away on a moment of weakness.
posted by amanda at 7:25 AM on November 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
I wouldn't assume he wants to hurt you like other posters have said. Meeting the other person gets recommended from time to time as a way of making them real (and not some imaginary perfect person who is better than you in all the ways you are insecure). I think it would also be good for you to meet him so that he and their lovey-dovey relationship are real to you. So, assuming you still want to stay with your GF, I'd tell your ex- that that sounds like a good idea; that you want to find a way for her and you to shift into a new kind of friendship that leaves your past behind; and that you also want her to meet your new GF; so maybe the four of you might go on a double date when GF next comes to visit? Imply that of course you guys won't spend time alone together between now and then. The goal would be for you all to be in a new relationship to one another where you respect one another's partners and commitments to them and can be just friends.
This plan does have some risks, and I hesitate particularly because L/D is inherently tougher and trickier. A lot depends on what your GF is like, and a lot depends on his intentions. In her shoes, I'd make the same suggestion as he did. But you definitely don't want to not bring her into the situation until you have some reassurance that it'll go well. It's very situation specific; her comfort should be your top concern; and don't bother if what you want is either to be with your ex- or to never see her again. All that said, whether or not it will ultimately make sense to do it, I think the response to his offer ought to be "yes, sounds great, let's ALL get together sometime." Especially when combined with a suggestion to your ex that you cool it on the alone time, that response would signal your intention to stay with your GF, respect their relationship, and ask them to respect yours.
posted by salvia at 7:58 AM on November 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
This plan does have some risks, and I hesitate particularly because L/D is inherently tougher and trickier. A lot depends on what your GF is like, and a lot depends on his intentions. In her shoes, I'd make the same suggestion as he did. But you definitely don't want to not bring her into the situation until you have some reassurance that it'll go well. It's very situation specific; her comfort should be your top concern; and don't bother if what you want is either to be with your ex- or to never see her again. All that said, whether or not it will ultimately make sense to do it, I think the response to his offer ought to be "yes, sounds great, let's ALL get together sometime." Especially when combined with a suggestion to your ex that you cool it on the alone time, that response would signal your intention to stay with your GF, respect their relationship, and ask them to respect yours.
posted by salvia at 7:58 AM on November 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
Based solely on your behavior, it sounds like you're gearing up to cheat on your current girlfriend with your ex. If you don't want to do that, then you should stop going on dates with your ex, stop sending her flirty emails... and just to be safe, probably stop being in touch at all right now.
posted by J. Wilson at 8:14 AM on November 14, 2010
posted by J. Wilson at 8:14 AM on November 14, 2010
I am sorry for your circumstance. You have to be honest with yourself about 2 things -- first, there is no such thing as "liking her as a friend" 20 year old guys don't like 20 year old girls as only friends. This state of mind rarely exists. Next, long distance relationships suck. You are all young and this is what happens to young people -- people grow and move around. Nobody can just sit around and wait.
Maybe give it some time, but my prediction is you will be with the ex.
posted by ao680 at 9:57 AM on November 14, 2010
Maybe give it some time, but my prediction is you will be with the ex.
posted by ao680 at 9:57 AM on November 14, 2010
How can I be an adult in this situation? I really like her (mostly platonic, but it's difficult to separate her from romance completely... the mind wanders), but I have no desire to hurt my own or her relationship.
It really depends what you want here. And I mean what you really want, not what you say you want.
I'm going to assume for the purposes of the following advice that you're being honest with the above - that you think your ex is a nice person and fun to hang out with, but you do not want to be romantically involved in any way. And that what you really want is to stay with your long distance girlfriend.
What you do in this situation is tell your ex you are not romantically interested in her at all, but you would genuinely like to have her as a friend. Then be honest with yourself about her reaction. I personally think there's nothing wrong with continuing to be platonic friends following that, but I say that as someone who has a long history of friendships with guys, a strong track record of being friends with other people who I have sexual chemistry with but who are off limits to me. And I've successfully negotiated the ex-to-friend transition. If you can't say any of that about yourself, I would tread carefully here. But that certainly doesn't mean it can't be done.
posted by Sara C. at 10:43 AM on November 14, 2010
It really depends what you want here. And I mean what you really want, not what you say you want.
I'm going to assume for the purposes of the following advice that you're being honest with the above - that you think your ex is a nice person and fun to hang out with, but you do not want to be romantically involved in any way. And that what you really want is to stay with your long distance girlfriend.
What you do in this situation is tell your ex you are not romantically interested in her at all, but you would genuinely like to have her as a friend. Then be honest with yourself about her reaction. I personally think there's nothing wrong with continuing to be platonic friends following that, but I say that as someone who has a long history of friendships with guys, a strong track record of being friends with other people who I have sexual chemistry with but who are off limits to me. And I've successfully negotiated the ex-to-friend transition. If you can't say any of that about yourself, I would tread carefully here. But that certainly doesn't mean it can't be done.
posted by Sara C. at 10:43 AM on November 14, 2010
One thing I just thought of, which I haven't noticed mentioned in any of the responses: If what you want is your ex, well, it sounds to me like she's more up for cheating on her current BF with you than for leaving him to be with you.
posted by J. Wilson at 11:15 AM on November 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by J. Wilson at 11:15 AM on November 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
Best answer: How would you answer these questions:
On the other hand, maybe you actually want that more than you want what you already have. In which case, stop tormenting yourself, do the right thing and break up with the current GF first. Just make sure it's not temporary insanity before you throw away a good thing.
posted by ctmf at 11:26 AM on November 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
- If, at the end of that day, she had invited you over to her place, you would/would not have gone.
- At her place, if she had come on to you, you would/would not have jumped in the sack.
On the other hand, maybe you actually want that more than you want what you already have. In which case, stop tormenting yourself, do the right thing and break up with the current GF first. Just make sure it's not temporary insanity before you throw away a good thing.
posted by ctmf at 11:26 AM on November 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Without a concrete date we'll be back together again. It's hard, but I love her and don't want to break up.
Focus on this. There's no point staying together unless you're going to be in the same town again. As you've just experienced, it's actually easy to find compatible people to date, and the mind does wander, and a person needs company. An interminable LDR with no end in sight is not a nice thing to do to yourself or others. (Unless, of course, you're one of those couples that's actually ok with an LDR - I don't see that in your message.)
So I say get a plan -- figure out when you are going to be living in the same city again; or at least figure out what preliminary steps you can take towards figuring that out. If you can't do this, start thinking hard about what you want out of this relationship. The fact that you love her doesn't really make a difference.
posted by yarly at 12:02 PM on November 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
Focus on this. There's no point staying together unless you're going to be in the same town again. As you've just experienced, it's actually easy to find compatible people to date, and the mind does wander, and a person needs company. An interminable LDR with no end in sight is not a nice thing to do to yourself or others. (Unless, of course, you're one of those couples that's actually ok with an LDR - I don't see that in your message.)
So I say get a plan -- figure out when you are going to be living in the same city again; or at least figure out what preliminary steps you can take towards figuring that out. If you can't do this, start thinking hard about what you want out of this relationship. The fact that you love her doesn't really make a difference.
posted by yarly at 12:02 PM on November 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
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posted by BusyBusyBusy at 6:29 AM on November 14, 2010 [13 favorites]