Help me identify this vest, please!
October 17, 2010 6:43 PM Subscribe
I found this cool, possibly old, possibly Turkish vest. Could you help me identify where it's from / when it was made or point me to other resources that might be of assistance?
I don't know much about the original owner except that she is (1) a distant relative of mine and (2) dead. So far, I haven't been able to figure out if said relative did any traveling during her lifetime, which might have helped me guess at the country of origin.
Here are some pictures.
It looks vaguely like some late 19th century Ottoman Turkish vests I saw on the internet, but is unlikely to actually be Ottoman or that old as the stitching on the interior of the vest looks like it may have been done with a machine. The orange, blue, and purple bits are velvet and the interior seems to be cotton. My uneducated guess is that it's from the 1960s, but I honestly have no idea.
(I'm not sure if this makes my question too broad, but other than AskMefi, where do people go with their old clothing related mysteries?)
Help me satisfy my curiosity, please!
I don't know much about the original owner except that she is (1) a distant relative of mine and (2) dead. So far, I haven't been able to figure out if said relative did any traveling during her lifetime, which might have helped me guess at the country of origin.
Here are some pictures.
It looks vaguely like some late 19th century Ottoman Turkish vests I saw on the internet, but is unlikely to actually be Ottoman or that old as the stitching on the interior of the vest looks like it may have been done with a machine. The orange, blue, and purple bits are velvet and the interior seems to be cotton. My uneducated guess is that it's from the 1960s, but I honestly have no idea.
(I'm not sure if this makes my question too broad, but other than AskMefi, where do people go with their old clothing related mysteries?)
Help me satisfy my curiosity, please!
Response by poster: Sorry! Should have specified -- she lived in the United States, died in Queens, NY. I'm not sure if she moved around much while she was alive, but given the pattern set by other relatives, it seems unlikely.
posted by cimton at 7:02 PM on October 17, 2010
posted by cimton at 7:02 PM on October 17, 2010
The embroidery in and of itself *looks* Middle Eastern. You could look at Folkwear to see if anything there looks familiar (they often include authentic methods of decoration/embroidery with their patterns) and if nothing else, I bet if you email the lovely people AT Folkwear they will either have someone in mind who would be an expert on this kind of garment/provenance/etc or might just know.
posted by Medieval Maven at 7:07 PM on October 17, 2010
posted by Medieval Maven at 7:07 PM on October 17, 2010
Honestly the first thing I thought was that it could be a vest from one of the wild west shows that used to travel around.
posted by wayland at 8:04 PM on October 17, 2010
posted by wayland at 8:04 PM on October 17, 2010
I'd tend to say Central Asia rather than Turkey/Middle East, but that's only a (weak) hunch.
Folkwear seems like a good place to ask for more information. If they can't help, a museum curator might be able to--for example, the 'Middle East' or 'Textiles and Fashion' people listed here, or the major museum with a textiles collection that's closest to you, or national one for whichever country you're in.
posted by lapsangsouchong at 9:14 PM on October 17, 2010
Folkwear seems like a good place to ask for more information. If they can't help, a museum curator might be able to--for example, the 'Middle East' or 'Textiles and Fashion' people listed here, or the major museum with a textiles collection that's closest to you, or national one for whichever country you're in.
posted by lapsangsouchong at 9:14 PM on October 17, 2010
I know absolutely nothing about these things, but the very first thought that came into my head when I saw the picture was that it looks Kazakhstani. But that's based on nothing but a gut reaction.
posted by phunniemee at 10:02 PM on October 17, 2010
posted by phunniemee at 10:02 PM on October 17, 2010
It looks like there is at least a little bit of hand stitching from the small view of the inside you have in the photos. Can't tell if that is machine stitching or not on my dinky monitor. Including more detailed photos of the lining and closeups of the stitching that would show multiple individual stitches on the inside might help with identifying how this was put together, which might help point to where it was made. More detailed photos of the embroidery might also be helpful, it looks like a lot of it might be trim that was sew on, but it's hard to tell. (I'll look on a larger monitor later -- or if I had a flickr account, perhaps I'd see a higher resolution?)
Also, an overall shot of the lining might be helpful, as well as a closeup of where the lining meets the outside. Does the very visible stitching we see on the lining go all the way through the trim on the outside of the garment? Also, are those actual pockets, and what's the pocket lining like?
Oh, and it does appear to be for a man or boy, but do mention if it seems to be even slightly cut to fit a woman's chest. What sort of dimensions does it have?
It looks vaguely like it might be a style from the area of the Northern part of the Middle East or adjacent areas of Asia/Europe -- the areas where particular traditional clothing was worn don't generally match up exactly with the international borders of today. Sometimes these sorts of things end up going through several hands on their way to the US, possibly with stops in other countries on the way -- I've seen pieces bought in Afghanistan that originated in Russia. People cross borders and trade these things as a business, or flee war and poverty and sell their "dress clothes" once they reach a more prosperous area. At any rate, the designs look like the sort of thing that shows up in areas with some exposure to Islamic art (not that that's what it is, but it tends to influence design), and velvet tends to not be the sort of thing worn in hotter areas. I'm not familiar with NYC, but surely there are places one can buy imported traditional clothing.
It could also be something that was made in the USA (or elsewhere). If you think it's from the 60's, it's certainly the sort of thing that someone in that era may have worn, or it could have been made as a costume piece. The lining may have been added later, or not. It could also have elements that came from somewhere else that were modified and sewn onto the lining, perhaps with some trim being added. Is the trim on the neckline exactly the same as what is on the velvet areas?
Purple appears very rarely as a "traditional" color of cloth (before synthetic dyes appeared it was very expensive), but as new types of cloth have appeared it seems common for them to be adopted by people making garments in their own tribal traditions.
If this was more than 100 years old, it would need to have been taken care of very well and carefully preserved to be in such good condition.
What's the fiber content on the velvet seem like? Cotton, silk, rayon, polyester? what about the thread on the outside, and the thread on the lining?
For this particular mystery, if I wanted some outside help I'd take it to a local shop here that specializes in imported rugs, jewelry, and related items. Perhaps you have something similar local to you? For general clothing mysteries, try a costume designer. Many colleges have this field under the Theater Arts department, or you could check a directory of people available to be hired for movie productions -- they would probably be union, but if it's not for a movie you may be able to hire their services without dealing with that. Shakespearean productions and opera houses also tend to have very experienced and knowledgeable costume staff.
If you are very curious about this sort of things in general (most people seem content to let such things be mysteries, but you are anticipating future ones), you may find the magazines Ornament and Fiber Arts to be of interest.
posted by yohko at 12:34 AM on October 18, 2010
Also, an overall shot of the lining might be helpful, as well as a closeup of where the lining meets the outside. Does the very visible stitching we see on the lining go all the way through the trim on the outside of the garment? Also, are those actual pockets, and what's the pocket lining like?
Oh, and it does appear to be for a man or boy, but do mention if it seems to be even slightly cut to fit a woman's chest. What sort of dimensions does it have?
It looks vaguely like it might be a style from the area of the Northern part of the Middle East or adjacent areas of Asia/Europe -- the areas where particular traditional clothing was worn don't generally match up exactly with the international borders of today. Sometimes these sorts of things end up going through several hands on their way to the US, possibly with stops in other countries on the way -- I've seen pieces bought in Afghanistan that originated in Russia. People cross borders and trade these things as a business, or flee war and poverty and sell their "dress clothes" once they reach a more prosperous area. At any rate, the designs look like the sort of thing that shows up in areas with some exposure to Islamic art (not that that's what it is, but it tends to influence design), and velvet tends to not be the sort of thing worn in hotter areas. I'm not familiar with NYC, but surely there are places one can buy imported traditional clothing.
It could also be something that was made in the USA (or elsewhere). If you think it's from the 60's, it's certainly the sort of thing that someone in that era may have worn, or it could have been made as a costume piece. The lining may have been added later, or not. It could also have elements that came from somewhere else that were modified and sewn onto the lining, perhaps with some trim being added. Is the trim on the neckline exactly the same as what is on the velvet areas?
Purple appears very rarely as a "traditional" color of cloth (before synthetic dyes appeared it was very expensive), but as new types of cloth have appeared it seems common for them to be adopted by people making garments in their own tribal traditions.
If this was more than 100 years old, it would need to have been taken care of very well and carefully preserved to be in such good condition.
What's the fiber content on the velvet seem like? Cotton, silk, rayon, polyester? what about the thread on the outside, and the thread on the lining?
For this particular mystery, if I wanted some outside help I'd take it to a local shop here that specializes in imported rugs, jewelry, and related items. Perhaps you have something similar local to you? For general clothing mysteries, try a costume designer. Many colleges have this field under the Theater Arts department, or you could check a directory of people available to be hired for movie productions -- they would probably be union, but if it's not for a movie you may be able to hire their services without dealing with that. Shakespearean productions and opera houses also tend to have very experienced and knowledgeable costume staff.
If you are very curious about this sort of things in general (most people seem content to let such things be mysteries, but you are anticipating future ones), you may find the magazines Ornament and Fiber Arts to be of interest.
posted by yohko at 12:34 AM on October 18, 2010
For what it's worth, it doesn't look like anything from the subcontinent. I would tend to agree that the work looks more Central Asian than Middle Eastern. But the cut looks more Middle Eastern than what I think of as Central Asian.
posted by bardophile at 2:03 AM on October 18, 2010
posted by bardophile at 2:03 AM on October 18, 2010
It's cut and motifs (right down to the pattern of the stitching in the lining, seems substantially similar to these Turkish yelek vests. The Etsy seller points out that there are both original and reproductions out there on the market.
posted by drlith at 4:11 AM on October 18, 2010
posted by drlith at 4:11 AM on October 18, 2010
My best guess would be Iran / Afghani areas near Iran, based on the cut and embroidery. It does not look particularly like it's from Kazakhstan or thereabouts to me.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 5:02 AM on October 18, 2010
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 5:02 AM on October 18, 2010
Response by poster: Wow! Amazing answers so far!
I've uploaded more / bigger pictures of the stitching and the interior, as that what people seem to be interested in.
The vest does seem to be cut either for a man or a boy.
I honestly don't know very much about fabric, but the lining and the thread (on the outside and inside) seem to be cotton -- at the very least it's a natural fiber. I'm not sure about the velvet. It feels softer and smoother than a synthetic velvet dress I own, but I suppose some of that might be due to the wear on the velvet.
posted by cimton at 6:08 AM on October 18, 2010
I've uploaded more / bigger pictures of the stitching and the interior, as that what people seem to be interested in.
The vest does seem to be cut either for a man or a boy.
I honestly don't know very much about fabric, but the lining and the thread (on the outside and inside) seem to be cotton -- at the very least it's a natural fiber. I'm not sure about the velvet. It feels softer and smoother than a synthetic velvet dress I own, but I suppose some of that might be due to the wear on the velvet.
posted by cimton at 6:08 AM on October 18, 2010
Response by poster: Oh also, measured flat, here are the dimensions: the shoulders are 15", the length is 18.5", the chest is 16".
While the lining and velvet do not feel particularly synthetic, the gold ribbon on the front feels sort of...rough, I guess, which makes me think it's not a natural fiber. At the same time, I have no idea what a gold ribbon made of natural fibers might feel like.
Thank you for all your wonderful comments and recommendations. I'm going to see if my library carries Ornament or Fiber Arts.
Expect another AskMefi question next week about learning more about the process of dating old garments -- this has been fascinating so far!
posted by cimton at 6:19 AM on October 18, 2010
While the lining and velvet do not feel particularly synthetic, the gold ribbon on the front feels sort of...rough, I guess, which makes me think it's not a natural fiber. At the same time, I have no idea what a gold ribbon made of natural fibers might feel like.
Thank you for all your wonderful comments and recommendations. I'm going to see if my library carries Ornament or Fiber Arts.
Expect another AskMefi question next week about learning more about the process of dating old garments -- this has been fascinating so far!
posted by cimton at 6:19 AM on October 18, 2010
I'm not able to give an exact attribution, but think a Moroccan origin is most likely. There are also textiles similar to this from Turkey and areas of the Balkans formerly under Ottoman control; there is little that looks like this from regions further east (Iran, Central Asia, etc.).
Higher resolution photos, including details of the inner lining fabrics and stitching, would probably help to narrow down the vests origin.
posted by robertmann at 9:49 AM on October 18, 2010
Higher resolution photos, including details of the inner lining fabrics and stitching, would probably help to narrow down the vests origin.
posted by robertmann at 9:49 AM on October 18, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by wayland at 6:55 PM on October 17, 2010