I don't know who my brother is anymore!
September 28, 2010 4:20 AM Subscribe
Bands with the same name. Since you can't usually have a fist fight over it, how do you decide who wins?
My brother has started making some music. He also has a habit of picking names that already exist. At one time he was DJ Cure then got an email from someone else (in England if I'm remembering right, but more importantly it was somewhere definitely not where he is) telling him he had to stop using that name.
For his latest batch of things he's gone with Brainsick. MySpace has someone using that name but they don't seem to have done anything in the past 4 or 5 years. LastFM has it as an artist already but no information about it. I also searched and found a DJ Brainsick.
Here's the question though. Will he have to find another new name? Do any of these artists have a claim to the name legitimate enough to stop any of the others from using it?
What happens out in the real world when a band has the same name as another band? I know Nirvana kept using that name, but right now I can't think of anyone off the top of my head that changed names because another band was already using it.
My brother has started making some music. He also has a habit of picking names that already exist. At one time he was DJ Cure then got an email from someone else (in England if I'm remembering right, but more importantly it was somewhere definitely not where he is) telling him he had to stop using that name.
For his latest batch of things he's gone with Brainsick. MySpace has someone using that name but they don't seem to have done anything in the past 4 or 5 years. LastFM has it as an artist already but no information about it. I also searched and found a DJ Brainsick.
Here's the question though. Will he have to find another new name? Do any of these artists have a claim to the name legitimate enough to stop any of the others from using it?
What happens out in the real world when a band has the same name as another band? I know Nirvana kept using that name, but right now I can't think of anyone off the top of my head that changed names because another band was already using it.
Pink Floyd originally was The Tea Set. They changed names because both bands were scheduled to play at the same venue.
posted by Houstonian at 4:43 AM on September 28, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Houstonian at 4:43 AM on September 28, 2010 [1 favorite]
I can think of, oh, maybe 100 bands that changed their name because someone else was using the same name. That's why you have Charlatans UK, the English Beat, Dinosaur Jr, and loads and loads more. More often, bands have to change their names before they're big enough that you've heard of them. But I happens all the time, even though this sort of thing is nowadays quite easy to search via the Internet. (And some of these bands must just be stupid - I've recently heard of new bands called the Fall, the Seeds and the Animals who appear not have heard of exceddngly well-known bands by the same name.)
And (Kurt Cobain's) Nirvana kept using that name only after they negotiated a deal with the 1960s UK band with the same name, not just because they felt like it. They were sued and worked out some understanding, with money changing hands.
Basically, bands with the earliest known use of the name are going to win, more so when they've toured, released records or have accrued some sort of notoriety.
For me the idea is simple; if you have any creativity at all, an original name shouldn't be tough to work out, what with all the methods to track down the similarly-named. If you can't manage that, I can't imagine that your artistic ideas are going to be that great.
There are many instances where several artists have shared a name and been something more than obscure - the Blue Orchids, the Poets, countless bands called the Tikis or the Outsiders or the Henchmen or whatever. Sometimes, more than one band withe same name has achieved some level of success. But generally, that success hasn't been massive enough to really confuse anyone, and often the bands, like the two well-known Blue Orchids, are different enough (one is a girl group from the early 1960, the other a post punk combo from nearly twenty years later) that no one seems real bothered.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 4:51 AM on September 28, 2010 [1 favorite]
And (Kurt Cobain's) Nirvana kept using that name only after they negotiated a deal with the 1960s UK band with the same name, not just because they felt like it. They were sued and worked out some understanding, with money changing hands.
Basically, bands with the earliest known use of the name are going to win, more so when they've toured, released records or have accrued some sort of notoriety.
For me the idea is simple; if you have any creativity at all, an original name shouldn't be tough to work out, what with all the methods to track down the similarly-named. If you can't manage that, I can't imagine that your artistic ideas are going to be that great.
There are many instances where several artists have shared a name and been something more than obscure - the Blue Orchids, the Poets, countless bands called the Tikis or the Outsiders or the Henchmen or whatever. Sometimes, more than one band withe same name has achieved some level of success. But generally, that success hasn't been massive enough to really confuse anyone, and often the bands, like the two well-known Blue Orchids, are different enough (one is a girl group from the early 1960, the other a post punk combo from nearly twenty years later) that no one seems real bothered.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 4:51 AM on September 28, 2010 [1 favorite]
What happens out in the real world when a band has the same name as another band? I know Nirvana kept using that name...
FYI, Nirvana had to pay $50,000 to the old Nirvana. (See the book Come As You Are, pg. 62.) I think the more common thing is, as Dee said, to change the name. In the case of Nirvana, the band was already rich and probably found it clearly worth spending that money. The fact that they reached a settlement implies that they believed they would likely lose a lawsuit over it.
posted by John Cohen at 5:00 AM on September 28, 2010
FYI, Nirvana had to pay $50,000 to the old Nirvana. (See the book Come As You Are, pg. 62.) I think the more common thing is, as Dee said, to change the name. In the case of Nirvana, the band was already rich and probably found it clearly worth spending that money. The fact that they reached a settlement implies that they believed they would likely lose a lawsuit over it.
posted by John Cohen at 5:00 AM on September 28, 2010
If you want to learn about a big legal fight over a name in the music industry, look at Apple Corps versus Apple Computers.
posted by Houstonian at 5:18 AM on September 28, 2010
posted by Houstonian at 5:18 AM on September 28, 2010
The fact that they reached a settlement implies that they believed they would likely lose a lawsuit over it.
Or that the lawsuit would have cost more than $50,000 to win. Fifty grand is a pittance, relatively speaking, so it seems likely to me that they decided that they could probably win but that it wasn't worth the hassle. If the original Nirvana thought it like that they'd win they could probably have held out for more.
posted by valkyryn at 5:21 AM on September 28, 2010 [1 favorite]
Or that the lawsuit would have cost more than $50,000 to win. Fifty grand is a pittance, relatively speaking, so it seems likely to me that they decided that they could probably win but that it wasn't worth the hassle. If the original Nirvana thought it like that they'd win they could probably have held out for more.
posted by valkyryn at 5:21 AM on September 28, 2010 [1 favorite]
You don't even have to share a name with a band to get into difficulties. Daniel Snaith, who now records under the name Caribou, used to be known as Manitoba. He was threatened with a lawsuit by Richard "Handsome Dick" Manitoba, despite the fact that the latter had only used the word Manitoba as a stage surname, and there was little or no chance of confusion.
Ultimately, it's often down to the threat of legal action and the associated cost vs. the cost of changing your band's name. Nowadays fans tend to be much better-connected with artists, so a name change isn't as likely to impact sales as it once might have been.
posted by le morte de bea arthur at 5:27 AM on September 28, 2010
Ultimately, it's often down to the threat of legal action and the associated cost vs. the cost of changing your band's name. Nowadays fans tend to be much better-connected with artists, so a name change isn't as likely to impact sales as it once might have been.
posted by le morte de bea arthur at 5:27 AM on September 28, 2010
Bush was Bush X here in Canada for a long while, but they eventually worked out an agreement with the original Bush and dropped the X.
From Wikipedia's Bush entry:
"In Canada, they were once known as Bushx, because the 1970s band Bush, led by Domenic Troiano, owned the Canadian rights to the name. In April 1997, it was announced that Troiano had agreed to let them use the name Bush in Canada without the exponent x, in exchange for donating $20,000 each to the Starlight Children's Foundation and the Canadian Music Therapy Trust Fund."
posted by backwards guitar at 5:46 AM on September 28, 2010
From Wikipedia's Bush entry:
"In Canada, they were once known as Bushx, because the 1970s band Bush, led by Domenic Troiano, owned the Canadian rights to the name. In April 1997, it was announced that Troiano had agreed to let them use the name Bush in Canada without the exponent x, in exchange for donating $20,000 each to the Starlight Children's Foundation and the Canadian Music Therapy Trust Fund."
posted by backwards guitar at 5:46 AM on September 28, 2010
Had a friend who went through this - apparently the legal deciding factor was who had verifiable evidence that they were using it first. In her case it was fuzzy enough (and they were broke enough) that it wasn't worth the lawsuit and they caved, even though she insists they would have won, if it came to that. This is in the US.
posted by restless_nomad at 7:17 AM on September 28, 2010
posted by restless_nomad at 7:17 AM on September 28, 2010
Dinosaur added Jr. when they discovered another Dinosaur.
posted by Cookiebastard at 7:52 AM on September 28, 2010
posted by Cookiebastard at 7:52 AM on September 28, 2010
Band names are trademarks. In the United States, you do not need to register your trademark with the US Patent and Trademark office to have a right to use it; there are "common law trademark rights" that attach as soon as you sell goods or services under a name. Generally, the first band to use the name in a given place wins. Here's a short blog post addressing registration of band names.
This is an oversimplified explanation, but if you call your band the Popsicle Truck and start playing out in Lincoln, Nebraska, nobody can come through Lincoln calling themselves the Popsicle Truck. But if there's a garage band in Dover, Delaware that doesn't know about yours and calls themselves the Popsicle Truck, there's no trouble. When both bands start to become popular and attract fans in expanded geography, that's where the trouble begins. This was common in the 60s, when garage bands called themselves things like The Turtles or The Animals. Spinal Tap (formerly The Originals and the New Originals) riffed on it in their movie.
Where all of this gets tricky - as DJ Cure/Brainsick/[next name] has learned - is that in the internet age it is really easy to create a quasi-global presence, by either setting up a webpage or social networking presence or "releasing" music by posting it online. If the original DJ Cure can establish either that he has already been using his name in the same space as your brother, and/or that your brother used the name knowing that there was already a DJ Cure out there, he wins.
posted by AgentRocket at 7:53 AM on September 28, 2010 [1 favorite]
This is an oversimplified explanation, but if you call your band the Popsicle Truck and start playing out in Lincoln, Nebraska, nobody can come through Lincoln calling themselves the Popsicle Truck. But if there's a garage band in Dover, Delaware that doesn't know about yours and calls themselves the Popsicle Truck, there's no trouble. When both bands start to become popular and attract fans in expanded geography, that's where the trouble begins. This was common in the 60s, when garage bands called themselves things like The Turtles or The Animals. Spinal Tap (formerly The Originals and the New Originals) riffed on it in their movie.
Where all of this gets tricky - as DJ Cure/Brainsick/[next name] has learned - is that in the internet age it is really easy to create a quasi-global presence, by either setting up a webpage or social networking presence or "releasing" music by posting it online. If the original DJ Cure can establish either that he has already been using his name in the same space as your brother, and/or that your brother used the name knowing that there was already a DJ Cure out there, he wins.
posted by AgentRocket at 7:53 AM on September 28, 2010 [1 favorite]
I have seen permutations of this all over. An old buddy of mine has similar mojo to your brother, it seems, and after several name changes, came up with something else, went down to the courthouse, and got a DBA in that name. He's run across other bands with the same name since, but upon presentation of the DBA, they've changed their name(s), not him.
I dunno if it's ever gone to court, maybe it just the power of quasi legal intimidation, but it's been working for him.
DBAs usually don't cost much, at least where I live. Certainly under $100.
posted by Leta at 8:17 AM on September 28, 2010
I dunno if it's ever gone to court, maybe it just the power of quasi legal intimidation, but it's been working for him.
DBAs usually don't cost much, at least where I live. Certainly under $100.
posted by Leta at 8:17 AM on September 28, 2010
One of my favorite musicians Dan Snaith changed his stage name from Manitoba to Caribou because he was threatened with a lawsuit: (from wikipedia) Snaith previously recorded under the stage name Manitoba, but changed his name in 2004 under threat of an American lawsuit by Richard "Handsome Dick" Manitoba[1], the stage name of The Dictators frontman Richard Blum. As Snaith himself commented, "It's like The Smiths suing John Smith or something". So it can be as petty as that.
posted by lizbunny at 8:48 AM on September 28, 2010
posted by lizbunny at 8:48 AM on September 28, 2010
The winner is the one with enough money to stop other people from using the name.
However.
posted by rhizome at 9:21 AM on September 28, 2010
However.
posted by rhizome at 9:21 AM on September 28, 2010
To correct a couple of misconceptions from above:
The original, UK, Nirvana was delighted that the success of Cobain's Nirvana had increased
awareness of their long-gone band. They accepted the relatively slight amount as a token gesture of good will, and by all accounts were fine and generous fellows who could have successfully sued for much more and won. Cobain admitted as much, and ended up saying nice things about the other Nirvana, which led to a mini-revival of sorts for them. So basically, they had a gentleman's agreement and everyone behaved as they should have done . . . as gentlemen. Sometimes people in bands are simply nice people and can work it all out.
Similarly, the two bands called The Beat. One is known in America as the English Beat, but in their home country of Britain as simply the Beat. There was a band from the US called the Beat, who had a deal and some degree of local fame (the leader had been in the Nerves with Peter Case and Jack Lee, the latter of whom wrote a big hit for Blondie), but had yet to issue a record. The two bands made a deal: neither would use the name "The Beat" in the US (the second one went by Paul Collins's Beat), but the first band to have a number one hit would "win" the use of the name. Sadly, neither band ever did, but they did play a few shows on the same bill and ended up being friendly with one another.
Dinosaur Jr didn't "discover" another Dinosaur, they were in fact "discovered" by the Dinosaurs, some sort of Grateful Dead spinoff band. There had been countless other bands with similar names, and it is possible that Dinosaur (Jr) might have won, since the Dinosaurs didn't really have a solid claim to the name themselves, but apparently the deep pockets and litigious nature of the Grateful Dead spinoff band made it too expensive a proposition to fight.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 9:46 AM on September 28, 2010
The original, UK, Nirvana was delighted that the success of Cobain's Nirvana had increased
awareness of their long-gone band. They accepted the relatively slight amount as a token gesture of good will, and by all accounts were fine and generous fellows who could have successfully sued for much more and won. Cobain admitted as much, and ended up saying nice things about the other Nirvana, which led to a mini-revival of sorts for them. So basically, they had a gentleman's agreement and everyone behaved as they should have done . . . as gentlemen. Sometimes people in bands are simply nice people and can work it all out.
Similarly, the two bands called The Beat. One is known in America as the English Beat, but in their home country of Britain as simply the Beat. There was a band from the US called the Beat, who had a deal and some degree of local fame (the leader had been in the Nerves with Peter Case and Jack Lee, the latter of whom wrote a big hit for Blondie), but had yet to issue a record. The two bands made a deal: neither would use the name "The Beat" in the US (the second one went by Paul Collins's Beat), but the first band to have a number one hit would "win" the use of the name. Sadly, neither band ever did, but they did play a few shows on the same bill and ended up being friendly with one another.
Dinosaur Jr didn't "discover" another Dinosaur, they were in fact "discovered" by the Dinosaurs, some sort of Grateful Dead spinoff band. There had been countless other bands with similar names, and it is possible that Dinosaur (Jr) might have won, since the Dinosaurs didn't really have a solid claim to the name themselves, but apparently the deep pockets and litigious nature of the Grateful Dead spinoff band made it too expensive a proposition to fight.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 9:46 AM on September 28, 2010
The longtime band The Veronicas got *forced* to change their name when some more financially supported (and newer) band wanted the name.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:07 PM on September 28, 2010
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:07 PM on September 28, 2010
The Veronicas weren't actually *forced* to change their name, they simply decided it would be too expensive to fight. They weren't happy about it, but it's not always who is first, but whether one party has an inextricable link with the name, in the public eye. The Australian band, with a multiple-million dollar deal in hand, might still have won, despite having the name after the other band. It's worth mentioning that the other Veronicas (now Beyond Veronica) still don't appear to have a functioning website, years and years on. So it's hard to think they were all that serious, but I could be wrong.
Also worth mentioning . . . they were given some undisclosed sum of money to change their name, so it wasn't quite as bad as it sounds. All this info via the band's lead singer.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 3:14 PM on September 28, 2010
Also worth mentioning . . . they were given some undisclosed sum of money to change their name, so it wasn't quite as bad as it sounds. All this info via the band's lead singer.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 3:14 PM on September 28, 2010
The English synthpop band Yazoo "renamed to Yaz for the US market because the name was already in use by a small American rock band."
The Chemical Brothers started out under the name "The Dust Brothers," & changed their name under threat from the original Dust Brothers.
posted by Pronoiac at 11:45 PM on September 29, 2010
The Chemical Brothers started out under the name "The Dust Brothers," & changed their name under threat from the original Dust Brothers.
posted by Pronoiac at 11:45 PM on September 29, 2010
Response by poster: Ok, so from the looks of things he'll be fine as long as no one gets on his case for using the name. Even if they do, he has another name he was using, as in having the folder on his computer named this one, so there's at least something ready.
And thanks for all the examples of people who had to change their name. I really had no idea about those.
posted by theichibun at 3:40 AM on September 30, 2010
And thanks for all the examples of people who had to change their name. I really had no idea about those.
posted by theichibun at 3:40 AM on September 30, 2010
For a time, Squeeze was Squeeze UK.
I know, I know, coming into this thread wicked late, but I am just starting to write about The (English) Beat at my blog and felt the need to chime in.
posted by Joey Michaels at 8:49 PM on January 6, 2011
I know, I know, coming into this thread wicked late, but I am just starting to write about The (English) Beat at my blog and felt the need to chime in.
posted by Joey Michaels at 8:49 PM on January 6, 2011
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There was both an indie band and a dance musician called Hefner at one point - neither huge artists, and neither likely to be confused for one another. I think that's the criterion.
posted by mippy at 4:38 AM on September 28, 2010