Sanity-check this salary please!
July 21, 2010 11:37 PM Subscribe
Is $65K/year for a 52-hour work week in Manhattan reasonable?
This would be my first out-of-college job, doing software development at a pretty cool-looking startup. Apparently I impressed them with my interviews, and they want me to start soon (and accept their offer sooner). I'm very excited about moving to NYC, preferably in the East Village area---which I'm told is a good place to live, and is also very close to the prospective workplace.
But, because of this whole "first out-of-college job" thing, I'm rather n00b about the whole monetary aspect. It was a bit worrying to me that they said average workdays were around 10--11 hours. When I did the math, $65K/year for 52.5-hour work week translates to $23.81/hour... which is less than the $24/hour I was making as a Silicon Valley intern in high school. I guess factoring in 14 sick days that becomes $24.76.
So I'm hoping to get a sanity check from more-experienced people. From what I can tell, this is a good offer on par with other entry-level non-financial software development jobs in Manhattan, and will provide enough for a studio apartment. Agree/disagree?
If this is actually a lowball offer, tips or links on contract negotiations would be appreciated, especially for this particular situation of taking an existing offer and asking for it to be upped.
P.S.: if you have experience moving cross-country and would be up for helping me figure that out, MeFi-mail me; I thought this was the most urgent question, but I'm not too savvy on the moving thing either.
This would be my first out-of-college job, doing software development at a pretty cool-looking startup. Apparently I impressed them with my interviews, and they want me to start soon (and accept their offer sooner). I'm very excited about moving to NYC, preferably in the East Village area---which I'm told is a good place to live, and is also very close to the prospective workplace.
But, because of this whole "first out-of-college job" thing, I'm rather n00b about the whole monetary aspect. It was a bit worrying to me that they said average workdays were around 10--11 hours. When I did the math, $65K/year for 52.5-hour work week translates to $23.81/hour... which is less than the $24/hour I was making as a Silicon Valley intern in high school. I guess factoring in 14 sick days that becomes $24.76.
So I'm hoping to get a sanity check from more-experienced people. From what I can tell, this is a good offer on par with other entry-level non-financial software development jobs in Manhattan, and will provide enough for a studio apartment. Agree/disagree?
If this is actually a lowball offer, tips or links on contract negotiations would be appreciated, especially for this particular situation of taking an existing offer and asking for it to be upped.
P.S.: if you have experience moving cross-country and would be up for helping me figure that out, MeFi-mail me; I thought this was the most urgent question, but I'm not too savvy on the moving thing either.
My cynical side says "When you're working that many hours, you won't have any time to spend the money anyway, so go for it!"
If it's their first offer, I wouldn't hesitate one second to try to argue them up. New York is expensive, with hours that long you should expect more compensation, more perks etc etc. Your high school job paid more per hour! Go for it! The worst they can say is "Sorry, this is the best offer we can make" and then you push for maybe an extra few days of vacation instead and if that doesn't work out you decide if things are good enough for you to take that job. My gut instinct is to argue up possibly even to $85k, but I could be completely off on that.
I know I can't hack those kinds of hours, but if you can, go for it.
posted by that girl at 12:13 AM on July 22, 2010 [2 favorites]
If it's their first offer, I wouldn't hesitate one second to try to argue them up. New York is expensive, with hours that long you should expect more compensation, more perks etc etc. Your high school job paid more per hour! Go for it! The worst they can say is "Sorry, this is the best offer we can make" and then you push for maybe an extra few days of vacation instead and if that doesn't work out you decide if things are good enough for you to take that job. My gut instinct is to argue up possibly even to $85k, but I could be completely off on that.
I know I can't hack those kinds of hours, but if you can, go for it.
posted by that girl at 12:13 AM on July 22, 2010 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I can't speak to software development, but 50-60 hours a week is not unusual for entry level folks in New York. The assumption, sadly, is that folks are driven and ambitious and are willing to put in "whatever it takes" to make it here. It's the hours I'm used to working, and the hours most of my friends in various fields work. And if they don't work those kinds of hours, it's because they have a day job to pay the rent and pursue something else as their main career focus.
You will likely not be unusual amongst people you meet in New York.
posted by Sara C. at 12:22 AM on July 22, 2010
You will likely not be unusual amongst people you meet in New York.
posted by Sara C. at 12:22 AM on July 22, 2010
Best answer: I know that NYC is an expensive place to live, and 52 hours is a long workweek. Do you think you could do $75?
The above is how you want to put it. Hours shouldn't even come into the picture much less the conversation. Its nice of them to try to give you a picture of the time-frames you will be expected to be in the office, but you should never bring up the hours issue from your end, particularly with regards to salary negotiations.
You want to make them believe that you're most concerned about performing well in the job, not how long its going to take you to get it done. If they feel you are the best candidate for the offer, hours will be the last thing in their mind as well, and its going to be a simple conversation of dollars.
That said, I think $65 is pretty competitive for entry level (when I was starting in NYC with 2 years of experience under my belt - almost 10 years ago - it was more like $55 in the retail industry I think). You may want to push for a little more salary to see if they budge, but if they don't, make sure you investigate other potential benefits (i.e. a relocation package that includes realtor fees in NYC could save you a couple thou right off the bat). You say there's 14 sick days included - is that inclusive of vacation or is that another number. 2 weeks is pretty standard entry-level vacation but you may be able to get more there if they aren't willing to budge on salary.
posted by allkindsoftime at 12:41 AM on July 22, 2010 [2 favorites]
The above is how you want to put it. Hours shouldn't even come into the picture much less the conversation. Its nice of them to try to give you a picture of the time-frames you will be expected to be in the office, but you should never bring up the hours issue from your end, particularly with regards to salary negotiations.
You want to make them believe that you're most concerned about performing well in the job, not how long its going to take you to get it done. If they feel you are the best candidate for the offer, hours will be the last thing in their mind as well, and its going to be a simple conversation of dollars.
That said, I think $65 is pretty competitive for entry level (when I was starting in NYC with 2 years of experience under my belt - almost 10 years ago - it was more like $55 in the retail industry I think). You may want to push for a little more salary to see if they budge, but if they don't, make sure you investigate other potential benefits (i.e. a relocation package that includes realtor fees in NYC could save you a couple thou right off the bat). You say there's 14 sick days included - is that inclusive of vacation or is that another number. 2 weeks is pretty standard entry-level vacation but you may be able to get more there if they aren't willing to budge on salary.
posted by allkindsoftime at 12:41 AM on July 22, 2010 [2 favorites]
How big is this company? What kind of development will you be doing? How flexible will your hours be? Will they expect you on weekends sometimes? Is this financial related? What is your degree in?
posted by Obscure Reference at 1:03 AM on July 22, 2010
posted by Obscure Reference at 1:03 AM on July 22, 2010
Best answer: As others have pointed out, the Village is an expensive place to live. If you want to make your salary go farther, have a look at apartments Washington Heights and the Upper East Side above 90th Street. You can live comfortably in both neighborhoods at the cost of a slightly longer commute.
posted by CRM114 at 1:04 AM on July 22, 2010
posted by CRM114 at 1:04 AM on July 22, 2010
As far as the hours is concerned, the 48-hour work-week disappeared years ago for exempt workers. Unless you are paid by the hour, expect your work-week to exceed a 50-hours. It usually takes form as 9 to 10 hour workdays. Your work-week will likely be more than your 52.5 hours; this is particularly true if you telecommute.
That is the sad fact of today's work environment. Those nasty unions just don't have the influence of the past and the 8-hour work-day is also something that belongs to the past. That's too bad. Your time is your most treasured non-renewable resource, and you should be compensated for it, but that isn't practical in today's economy. Just make sure you get paid enough to meet expenses and save enough to be certain you can retire in comfort.
posted by Hilbert at 2:11 AM on July 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
That is the sad fact of today's work environment. Those nasty unions just don't have the influence of the past and the 8-hour work-day is also something that belongs to the past. That's too bad. Your time is your most treasured non-renewable resource, and you should be compensated for it, but that isn't practical in today's economy. Just make sure you get paid enough to meet expenses and save enough to be certain you can retire in comfort.
posted by Hilbert at 2:11 AM on July 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
It's a good salary for a straight-out-of-college employee. And most salaried employees are expected to work more than 40 hours a week. If you want to push for more, go with "high cost of living" like allkindsoftime suggested above.
However, that salary would take you a lot further if you are willing to live with roommates or somewhere further than East Village. I mean, you'll be living in New York City- it's better to live somewhere cheaper so you have enough spending cash to go out and enjoy yourself.
posted by emd3737 at 2:22 AM on July 22, 2010
However, that salary would take you a lot further if you are willing to live with roommates or somewhere further than East Village. I mean, you'll be living in New York City- it's better to live somewhere cheaper so you have enough spending cash to go out and enjoy yourself.
posted by emd3737 at 2:22 AM on July 22, 2010
52 hours is nothing at all, you'll have plenty of time to enjoy life and spend your money :) It's certainly not to "you won't have free time to spend your money" level (people these days...). It's definitely a fine salary, ESPECIALLY given you are excited about the job and the work! I would definitely try to make your money go further by living with roommates, but honestly you hit a solid job and a solid offer.
Have fun :)
posted by wooh at 4:17 AM on July 22, 2010
Have fun :)
posted by wooh at 4:17 AM on July 22, 2010
Best answer: Rent in the East Village apt.: $1,900 / mo.
Realtor Fee: $1,900
Food: $250 / mo.
Metrocard: $89 / mo.
Heat/Electricity: $80 / mo.
-- optional, but realistically --
Cable, High-Speed Internet: $120 / mo.
Cell Phone: $50 / mo.
Total: $31,768 / year
Figure you'll actually see ~$45,000 of your $65k after federal and state taxes. So, do-able, but you'll be saving very slowly. That said, $65k/yr. for an entry-level programming job that's not in the financial sector, in this economy, is very good.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 4:37 AM on July 22, 2010
Realtor Fee: $1,900
Food: $250 / mo.
Metrocard: $89 / mo.
Heat/Electricity: $80 / mo.
-- optional, but realistically --
Cable, High-Speed Internet: $120 / mo.
Cell Phone: $50 / mo.
Total: $31,768 / year
Figure you'll actually see ~$45,000 of your $65k after federal and state taxes. So, do-able, but you'll be saving very slowly. That said, $65k/yr. for an entry-level programming job that's not in the financial sector, in this economy, is very good.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 4:37 AM on July 22, 2010
Best answer: It's not like you're doomed to make $65,000 for the rest of your life. You could get a raise, change jobs later on, etc. You're just out of college and making $65,000. Plenty of people out of college and law school make less than that in NYC, and they're deeply in debt. You're lucky.
posted by Jaltcoh at 4:54 AM on July 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Jaltcoh at 4:54 AM on July 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
Best answer: You have been offered a job in your field in an awesome city which will permit you to live comfortably if not extravagantly in the midst of the greatest economic slowdown in almost a century.
You would be insane not to take it.
posted by valkyryn at 5:08 AM on July 22, 2010 [11 favorites]
You would be insane not to take it.
posted by valkyryn at 5:08 AM on July 22, 2010 [11 favorites]
To me, for software development, it does sound a little on the low end. If you went to work for one of the giant companies in the Valley or Seattle you would make a lot more than that. Even the startups I know in Boston pay more than that for straight out of college hires and a more reasonable work week. On the other hand, my numbers are from non-recession years, and it also depends on your own qualifications--if it's the best job you can get it's the best job you can get, and it's not an egregiously terrible offer.
posted by phoenixy at 5:14 AM on July 22, 2010
posted by phoenixy at 5:14 AM on July 22, 2010
Take it, and get a roommate in an awesome apartment in a neighborhood you like. Accept a slightly longer commute if that means saving money faster. See if the company will pay moving costs.
posted by mdonley at 5:15 AM on July 22, 2010
posted by mdonley at 5:15 AM on July 22, 2010
Dude, a salaried job immediately after graduating is a rarity right now.
And New York is the best place on planet earth, which is why it's expensive.
Ask for 75, but take the job if they don't budge. Nothing helps you move into a better job than already having a good one.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:47 AM on July 22, 2010
And New York is the best place on planet earth, which is why it's expensive.
Ask for 75, but take the job if they don't budge. Nothing helps you move into a better job than already having a good one.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:47 AM on July 22, 2010
Oh, and yes, live in Brooklyn. Short commute to the LES. You can get a $1200 studio in Manhattan. It will be the size of a walk-in closet and you will share it with mice and roaches and most likely it will be in a 5th floor walkup in a bad block.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:49 AM on July 22, 2010
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:49 AM on July 22, 2010
Oh, and as for negotiating -- hell, it never hurts to try. What's the worst that can happen? They'll stand firm at $65K and say take it or leave it. You'll be no worse off then where you started.
Actually, the worst that can happen is they revoke the offer all together. When I graduated two and a half years ago, I was warned by the career office that some of the well-established companies had been known to revoke very good offers to recent grads if they tried negotiating. Especially in fields where able grads are a dime-a-dozen (computer programmers). However - if this is a start-up like you mentioned I would consider the chances of something like this happening almost nil. You should take the offer in my opinion, sounds like a great start right out of college!
posted by drewski at 6:18 AM on July 22, 2010
Actually, the worst that can happen is they revoke the offer all together. When I graduated two and a half years ago, I was warned by the career office that some of the well-established companies had been known to revoke very good offers to recent grads if they tried negotiating. Especially in fields where able grads are a dime-a-dozen (computer programmers). However - if this is a start-up like you mentioned I would consider the chances of something like this happening almost nil. You should take the offer in my opinion, sounds like a great start right out of college!
posted by drewski at 6:18 AM on July 22, 2010
Take job.
posted by millipede at 6:25 AM on July 22, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by millipede at 6:25 AM on July 22, 2010 [4 favorites]
Best answer: The hours above 40 should be at 1.5 x the hourly rate, so you should figure the hourly rate based on 58 hours/week. With 52.2 weeks in a year, I get 21.47/hour. Sick or vaca days are not usually considered for purposes of comparison. Are you getting stock options that you feel good about, a bonus, or other compensation?
On the other hand, the economy is dramatically worse than when you were in high school. The valid comparison would be with a similar current offer, and they are rare right now.
You want to do this. Talk to them and ask them to put it in the offer that they'll re-evaluate in 6 months, and give you an X% increase based on performance. Or ask them to pay your Metro pass, or for other perks that will make you feel happy about the company.
Learn about stock options. They can be great, or useless.
Moving to a new city? Look for a roommate situation. Cheaper, and easier to meet new people.
You're going to have a blast.
posted by theora55 at 6:29 AM on July 22, 2010
On the other hand, the economy is dramatically worse than when you were in high school. The valid comparison would be with a similar current offer, and they are rare right now.
You want to do this. Talk to them and ask them to put it in the offer that they'll re-evaluate in 6 months, and give you an X% increase based on performance. Or ask them to pay your Metro pass, or for other perks that will make you feel happy about the company.
Learn about stock options. They can be great, or useless.
Moving to a new city? Look for a roommate situation. Cheaper, and easier to meet new people.
You're going to have a blast.
posted by theora55 at 6:29 AM on July 22, 2010
Awesome score!!! Just make sure that if you have any school debt, to be aggressive in paying it down, and make sure to put the full amount that is matched toward the awesome 401k they are offering you.
I don't really have anything else to add, sorry, but 65k out of college and getting a salaried job is pretty rare these days. Pat yourself on the back and enjoy it while you are young. Just remember that the hours you put in now are going to be easier to deal with than in 10 years.
posted by TheBones at 6:50 AM on July 22, 2010
I don't really have anything else to add, sorry, but 65k out of college and getting a salaried job is pretty rare these days. Pat yourself on the back and enjoy it while you are young. Just remember that the hours you put in now are going to be easier to deal with than in 10 years.
posted by TheBones at 6:50 AM on July 22, 2010
Salary: reasonable. I've worked in tech and finance in the city and that's a mid-high starting salary in my book. Check out Salary.com if you want confirmation.
My bigger question to you is: do you feel this is the right company? Do you jive with the people you'll work with? Did you get a good enough idea of this from the interview(s)? What are the opportunities for growth? Will what you'll be doing make you happy - will you feel proud of what you do? If these things are in line, they'll pay greater dividends than a small difference in salary, I promise you.
Be sure you've shopped around at least a little unless your gut says "this is so it."
I moved from San Fran to New York in a weekend when a dicey job situation became unbearable. I mailed most everything - media mail for books/CDs/DVDs, UPS ground for the rest. If you've got a bike, consider FedEx (their rates tend to be good for large & awkward stuff) and ask a local bike store for a free box. Particularly heavy stuff and/or fragile stuff I took in my carry-on (lightweight camping backpack): pots & pans, hard drives, bike lock. Get a sublet for a few weeks to sort out housing with less stress. Check out new construction for savings on the rent side: Curbed, Craigslist (search all no-fee apartments), etc.
Welcome to New York.
posted by xiaolongbao at 7:02 AM on July 22, 2010
My bigger question to you is: do you feel this is the right company? Do you jive with the people you'll work with? Did you get a good enough idea of this from the interview(s)? What are the opportunities for growth? Will what you'll be doing make you happy - will you feel proud of what you do? If these things are in line, they'll pay greater dividends than a small difference in salary, I promise you.
Be sure you've shopped around at least a little unless your gut says "this is so it."
I moved from San Fran to New York in a weekend when a dicey job situation became unbearable. I mailed most everything - media mail for books/CDs/DVDs, UPS ground for the rest. If you've got a bike, consider FedEx (their rates tend to be good for large & awkward stuff) and ask a local bike store for a free box. Particularly heavy stuff and/or fragile stuff I took in my carry-on (lightweight camping backpack): pots & pans, hard drives, bike lock. Get a sublet for a few weeks to sort out housing with less stress. Check out new construction for savings on the rent side: Curbed, Craigslist (search all no-fee apartments), etc.
Welcome to New York.
posted by xiaolongbao at 7:02 AM on July 22, 2010
Best answer: If you have the luxury of time and being able to check out a LOT of places before moving, you can get pretty decent (by NYC standards) rents in the East Village. I looked at about 25 different apartments over a month and a half last summer and wound up in a decent-sized studio in a 3rd floor walkup for $1450 a month, no broker fee, on a really great block. It was a lot of effort to find this place, but definitely worth it. I love my apartment so much that I just re-signed my lease. I make about 2/3 what you will and have been able to make it work, no problem.
I recommend that you find a place with roommates in Brooklyn or Astoria, Queens for a few months while you get to know the city and figure out where you want to live. The East Village is great, but if you've never lived in a big city before it could be a tough transition.
Anyway, the offer sounds good, you might want to counter to see if you can bump them up, but $65K is definitely better than most people are getting nowadays.
posted by Fuego at 11:21 AM on July 22, 2010
I recommend that you find a place with roommates in Brooklyn or Astoria, Queens for a few months while you get to know the city and figure out where you want to live. The East Village is great, but if you've never lived in a big city before it could be a tough transition.
Anyway, the offer sounds good, you might want to counter to see if you can bump them up, but $65K is definitely better than most people are getting nowadays.
posted by Fuego at 11:21 AM on July 22, 2010
Response by poster: Thanks all, this was very helpful. I tried going for $75K, but no dice; they emphasized that this was very good for someone straight out of school, and in line with other jobs like this in the area, and emphasized that they wanted to see me work first. I did get a "if you perform really well then in 6 months I'll be the one coming to you saying let's up this to $70K or $75K," which might be worth something. But overall I'm happy with it, and (especially after reading the responses posted since I went to bed last night) that's the right place to be.
Definitely appreciate the people telling me about what real-world work weeks are like---I didn't really realize that. And all the cost breakdowns or advice on apartments were also quite helpful: not sure what I'll end up doing there, as I really prefer to live alone, but the location is reasonably flexible, and maybe I should get over my dislike of roommates as a growth experience or something.
Aaaaaah ZOMG this is really happening!
posted by Jacen Solo at 12:15 PM on July 22, 2010
Definitely appreciate the people telling me about what real-world work weeks are like---I didn't really realize that. And all the cost breakdowns or advice on apartments were also quite helpful: not sure what I'll end up doing there, as I really prefer to live alone, but the location is reasonably flexible, and maybe I should get over my dislike of roommates as a growth experience or something.
Aaaaaah ZOMG this is really happening!
posted by Jacen Solo at 12:15 PM on July 22, 2010
Roommates are very much a part of the culture of life in New York. I know very few people, at all income levels, who live alone without either a roommate or live-in SO. This isn't to say that you can't have your own place if you can afford it and would prefer things that way. But it's sort of the default arrangement for young single folks. Especially people who are new to the city - living alone here can be isolating, especially if you don't have a strong social circle.
posted by Sara C. at 12:30 PM on July 22, 2010
posted by Sara C. at 12:30 PM on July 22, 2010
Rent in the East Village apt.: $1,900 / mo.
Realtor Fee: $1,900
Food: $250 / mo.
Metrocard: $89 / mo.
Heat/Electricity: $80 / mo.
Is $250/mo for food in NY realistic?
posted by pewpew at 1:40 PM on July 22, 2010
Realtor Fee: $1,900
Food: $250 / mo.
Metrocard: $89 / mo.
Heat/Electricity: $80 / mo.
Is $250/mo for food in NY realistic?
posted by pewpew at 1:40 PM on July 22, 2010
Is $250/mo for food in NY realistic?
If you cook yourself, sure. Otherwise, it is that much per week sometimes. (for me at least)
posted by Threeway Handshake at 1:51 PM on July 22, 2010
If you cook yourself, sure. Otherwise, it is that much per week sometimes. (for me at least)
posted by Threeway Handshake at 1:51 PM on July 22, 2010
If you eat out a lot, yes. And chances are a 22 year old guy living alone in the East Village is not going to cook at home much, if ever.
posted by Sara C. at 1:52 PM on July 22, 2010
posted by Sara C. at 1:52 PM on July 22, 2010
I was an entry-level software engineer in NYC a couple years ago and I made about that much for a normal work week (not at a startup). Given startup economics, that's a reasonable salary expectation (you plan to work 50+ hours at almost any startup, in any role).
I would also recommend not living in the East Village on that salary, although you could pull it off if you really wanted to. Then again, if you're new to NYC roommates are a Good Idea (TM). If you're working near the East Village, I'll be a Brooklyn-promoting broken record and suggest the many fun neighborhoods along the L train , which are the traditional place for a new 22-year-old to set up shop. And they're much much cheaper than the EV.
posted by zvs at 2:13 PM on July 22, 2010
I would also recommend not living in the East Village on that salary, although you could pull it off if you really wanted to. Then again, if you're new to NYC roommates are a Good Idea (TM). If you're working near the East Village, I'll be a Brooklyn-promoting broken record and suggest the many fun neighborhoods along the L train , which are the traditional place for a new 22-year-old to set up shop. And they're much much cheaper than the EV.
posted by zvs at 2:13 PM on July 22, 2010
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The usual rent metric is that you want to only be spending a third to a quarter of your money per month on rent. $65K puts your target rent somewhere between $1200-1600. You might be able to get a studio for that in the East Village. But you could do a lot better for your money in Brooklyn (which is where all of the interesting people under 30 live, anyway). At that price range you could get a one bedroom apartment in most of the "cool" neighborhoods of Brooklyn. You could even have a good chance of scoring on a place with a backyard, roof access, or the like. You might even be able to afford a 2 bedroom at that price, depending on the neighborhood.
You could also opt in to a roommate situation and potentially either save craploads of money or live in a seriously swank building. Or maybe both. I know someone who makes about what you make who shares an extremely fabulous duplex 4 bedroom apartment in DUMBO with three other people - his rent is less than that 1/4 metric, AND he has central AC, a dishwasher, washer/dryer in the apartment (which is almost unheard of) a roof deck, etc.
posted by Sara C. at 11:51 PM on July 21, 2010 [1 favorite]