Should we still teach children to write in "script"?
May 16, 2010 6:53 PM Subscribe
Why should children learn to write in cursive (script)? Or, rather, shouldn't they not?
Yes they need to be able to read it, but why should they practice writing it (in particular, capital D, but that is my personal bete noir). I ask this as a teacher and parent who can bear witness to the futility of the trials involved.
Do you think it is important enough to spend a significant amount of time out of the school day ? Most grownups I know get by when they're not typing with a print/script amalgam that suits their hand. Does anybody out there really write in cursive?
Yes they need to be able to read it, but why should they practice writing it (in particular, capital D, but that is my personal bete noir). I ask this as a teacher and parent who can bear witness to the futility of the trials involved.
Do you think it is important enough to spend a significant amount of time out of the school day ? Most grownups I know get by when they're not typing with a print/script amalgam that suits their hand. Does anybody out there really write in cursive?
Maybe its useful not so much for the end result (nice curly penmanship) but for the journey (focused mind/hand/eye activity)?
posted by ian1977 at 6:56 PM on May 16, 2010 [8 favorites]
posted by ian1977 at 6:56 PM on May 16, 2010 [8 favorites]
Being able to read cursive is a practical skill as well, and if you're going to take the time to learn that, you may as well spend some time writing. Besides, a lot of kids get really excited to learn it, and anything they're excited about can be a good stepping stone to squeeze in other reading and writing skills.
posted by rikschell at 6:59 PM on May 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by rikschell at 6:59 PM on May 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
it's handy when you are taking notes. The standard forms of cursive just make it easier for other people to read.
posted by ArgentCorvid at 7:00 PM on May 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by ArgentCorvid at 7:00 PM on May 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
Interesting . . . my 9 year-old asked me this same question this morning. I told her it was because it would help her write faster. And then we practiced writing cursive together and she told me most of my letters were wrong. I guess I made up my own cursive along the way and so . . . I don't know.
posted by Sassyfras at 7:01 PM on May 16, 2010
posted by Sassyfras at 7:01 PM on May 16, 2010
When I took the SAT, you had to write this paragraph long statement saying you were not cheating or going to steal the questions and share them. For some reason, this had to be done in cursive. This, along with having to write my full name in cursive (I was told many times that this needed to be my name in cursive, not my signature) are perhaps the two most stressful writing related times in my life.
Also, if we didn't force this on children, I suspect that that scene in Billy Madison would be less funny.
posted by mge at 7:01 PM on May 16, 2010 [7 favorites]
Also, if we didn't force this on children, I suspect that that scene in Billy Madison would be less funny.
posted by mge at 7:01 PM on May 16, 2010 [7 favorites]
I think when they introduced the non-cheating statement, people actually knew how to write in cursive.
posted by madcaptenor at 7:04 PM on May 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by madcaptenor at 7:04 PM on May 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
Gotta agree with mge, writing that stupid paragraph on the SAT was the hardest part of the test.
Definitely important to know how to write your name in cursive, and I agree that a lot of it is about the journey--cursive will probably improve printing skills, as well.
As for the name thing, I used to neatly write my signature in cursive, but I only do that now for things I consider to be important--for everyday stuff, I just kind of squiggle a poor approximation of my name, and I suspect most people do the same.
posted by DMan at 7:06 PM on May 16, 2010
Definitely important to know how to write your name in cursive, and I agree that a lot of it is about the journey--cursive will probably improve printing skills, as well.
As for the name thing, I used to neatly write my signature in cursive, but I only do that now for things I consider to be important--for everyday stuff, I just kind of squiggle a poor approximation of my name, and I suspect most people do the same.
posted by DMan at 7:06 PM on May 16, 2010
Once mastered, cursive is faster than printing... I always wish I learnt cursive, because now when I write fast it ends up being this horrible amalgam of characters that vaguely resemble printing. (It wasn't required in my school, and I didn't see the point back when my mom tried to make me learn.)
posted by Xany at 7:09 PM on May 16, 2010
posted by Xany at 7:09 PM on May 16, 2010
Although I hated learning it, I think it was definitely beneficial to learn cursive. As you get older, you learn to write in your own "style" - some people write faster printing, some like to do cursive. Personally, my handwriting is somewhat of a combo especially when writing fast. I use "cursive"-style connections a lot. I never would have learned that on my own.
Also, a printed signature looks stupid.
posted by radioamy at 7:09 PM on May 16, 2010
Also, a printed signature looks stupid.
posted by radioamy at 7:09 PM on May 16, 2010
Re: mge and the SAT
I remember writing that paragraph. I wrote it entirely in print, against the proctor's instruction, and heard nothing of it. I got my score later just like everyone else.
posted by mnemonic at 7:10 PM on May 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
I remember writing that paragraph. I wrote it entirely in print, against the proctor's instruction, and heard nothing of it. I got my score later just like everyone else.
posted by mnemonic at 7:10 PM on May 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
They have to learn it because I had to learn it, period!
Plus, good handwriting is simply esthetically pleasing. Almost everyone under twenty-five that I know has even worse penmanship than I do, and that is sad.
posted by Some1 at 7:11 PM on May 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
Plus, good handwriting is simply esthetically pleasing. Almost everyone under twenty-five that I know has even worse penmanship than I do, and that is sad.
posted by Some1 at 7:11 PM on May 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
Writing in cursive is one of the very, very very few things learned at school that I actually use semi-daily. For notes and keeping journal, cursive is both faster and easier than printing by hand.
posted by rainy at 7:12 PM on May 16, 2010
posted by rainy at 7:12 PM on May 16, 2010
I once got accused of stealing a credit card because my signature wasn't in cursive... had to pull out my license so the person could examine the signature to see that's how I always sign.
So I guess it can go both ways... I never write in cursive even when I need to provide a signature, and I haven't had any issues. But some people will be rude about it...
posted by biochemist at 7:12 PM on May 16, 2010
So I guess it can go both ways... I never write in cursive even when I need to provide a signature, and I haven't had any issues. But some people will be rude about it...
posted by biochemist at 7:12 PM on May 16, 2010
"Thing is stupid amirite!" is chatfilter.
Does anybody out there really write in cursive?
If this is really your question, then the very obvious answer is yes.
posted by fritley at 7:17 PM on May 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
Does anybody out there really write in cursive?
If this is really your question, then the very obvious answer is yes.
posted by fritley at 7:17 PM on May 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
Best answer: There is no purpose. It is an outdated and irrelevant skill. You don't need to know cursive to compose a distinguishable signature. And it's absurd to think that, in this day of video games, kids need to learn cursive to benefit their hand eye co-ordination.
The closest thing to an argument in favour is that it's good for children to learn tedious physical tasks. But, that being the case, it would be better to teach them to knit. At least knitting is useful.
I'm of the opinion that there isn't even merit in learning to read cursive. I come across cursive writing far less often than I come across, say Japanese. And it's only going to get less common.
posted by 256 at 7:19 PM on May 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
The closest thing to an argument in favour is that it's good for children to learn tedious physical tasks. But, that being the case, it would be better to teach them to knit. At least knitting is useful.
I'm of the opinion that there isn't even merit in learning to read cursive. I come across cursive writing far less often than I come across, say Japanese. And it's only going to get less common.
posted by 256 at 7:19 PM on May 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
There are times where recording ideas, etc., on the fly can be really useful, but laptops and other technology aren't available, which means hand writing of some sort probably remains valuable, even in this age of technology.
Having said that, I don't actually have a direct answer to the OP's question, but one way to decide might be an experiment of writing out the same ideas in both script and cursive, and seeing which technique is quicker. (Obviously, the answer depends in part on which technique a particular writer feels more comfortable with, but the overall pattern for most writers competent in both, I'm guessing, would likely favor cursive for speed and ease.)
posted by 5Q7 at 7:25 PM on May 16, 2010
Having said that, I don't actually have a direct answer to the OP's question, but one way to decide might be an experiment of writing out the same ideas in both script and cursive, and seeing which technique is quicker. (Obviously, the answer depends in part on which technique a particular writer feels more comfortable with, but the overall pattern for most writers competent in both, I'm guessing, would likely favor cursive for speed and ease.)
posted by 5Q7 at 7:25 PM on May 16, 2010
Best answer: Gotta agree with mge, writing that stupid paragraph on the SAT was the hardest part of the test.
Oh god, horrible memories. I think everyone remained silent, but the pain and agony during writing that paragraph was definitely tangible. It ended about 5 minutes too early, too (I finished all the other sections with time to double-check.)
I haven't come up with a good reason yet. Here was what teachers told me in elementary school:
2nd grade: "you have to learn it because you need to know it in 3rd grade"
3rd grade: "you have to practice it because in 4th grade, they expect it of you"
4th grade: "we still don't care, but you have to practice it because in 5th grade you need to know cursive."
5th grade: "You'd better be good at cursive, in middle school you can ONLY WRITE IN CURSIVE."
Middle school: "Write however you want."
FAIL.
I am still angry about this.
posted by mokudekiru at 7:28 PM on May 16, 2010 [28 favorites]
Oh god, horrible memories. I think everyone remained silent, but the pain and agony during writing that paragraph was definitely tangible. It ended about 5 minutes too early, too (I finished all the other sections with time to double-check.)
I haven't come up with a good reason yet. Here was what teachers told me in elementary school:
2nd grade: "you have to learn it because you need to know it in 3rd grade"
3rd grade: "you have to practice it because in 4th grade, they expect it of you"
4th grade: "we still don't care, but you have to practice it because in 5th grade you need to know cursive."
5th grade: "You'd better be good at cursive, in middle school you can ONLY WRITE IN CURSIVE."
Middle school: "Write however you want."
FAIL.
I am still angry about this.
posted by mokudekiru at 7:28 PM on May 16, 2010 [28 favorites]
There is no purpose. It is an outdated and irrelevant skill. You don't need to know cursive to compose a distinguishable signature. And it's absurd to think that, in this day of video games, kids need to learn cursive to benefit their hand eye co-ordination.
Even though I loathed penmanship class...and it shows....I have to disagree. Learning penmanship is learning a system. And learning systems is what its all about right? The system might be (arguably) useless but on the other hand its freely available, requires only pen and paper and has the benefit of adding fine motor skill.
posted by ian1977 at 7:32 PM on May 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
Even though I loathed penmanship class...and it shows....I have to disagree. Learning penmanship is learning a system. And learning systems is what its all about right? The system might be (arguably) useless but on the other hand its freely available, requires only pen and paper and has the benefit of adding fine motor skill.
posted by ian1977 at 7:32 PM on May 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
2nd grade: "you have to learn it because you need to know it in 3rd grade"
3rd grade: "you have to practice it because in 4th grade, they expect it of you"
4th grade: "we still don't care, but you have to practice it because in 5th grade you need to know cursive."
5th grade: "You'd better be good at cursive, in middle school you can ONLY WRITE IN CURSIVE."
Middle school: "Write however you want."
This is the story so much in school in general - just replace "cursive" with "x" where x=random idiotic thing teachers thing you should do/know.
There was an interesting article in Slate a while back about one of their columnists re-learning to write in cursive (script, actually) along with her school-age daughter. The method they learned resulted in very elegant, readable handwriting and I have been considering it for my daughter when she gets a little older.
The truth is that children don't spend a significant portion of their day learning cursive anymore. Cursive (or handwriting in general) isn't on standardized tests, so teachers can't afford to give it much time or attention.
posted by jeoc at 7:37 PM on May 16, 2010 [5 favorites]
3rd grade: "you have to practice it because in 4th grade, they expect it of you"
4th grade: "we still don't care, but you have to practice it because in 5th grade you need to know cursive."
5th grade: "You'd better be good at cursive, in middle school you can ONLY WRITE IN CURSIVE."
Middle school: "Write however you want."
This is the story so much in school in general - just replace "cursive" with "x" where x=random idiotic thing teachers thing you should do/know.
There was an interesting article in Slate a while back about one of their columnists re-learning to write in cursive (script, actually) along with her school-age daughter. The method they learned resulted in very elegant, readable handwriting and I have been considering it for my daughter when she gets a little older.
The truth is that children don't spend a significant portion of their day learning cursive anymore. Cursive (or handwriting in general) isn't on standardized tests, so teachers can't afford to give it much time or attention.
posted by jeoc at 7:37 PM on May 16, 2010 [5 favorites]
Why do I need to memorize the times table when I have a calculator and a cell phone with one built in? Why do I need to learn to type even when there is voice recognition software? I have no expectation that my children will be writing letters to me in script or to anyone for that matter. I myself, in my late 40's, have not written in script since high school some 25+ years ago. I don't speak Latin even though I took it in high school. I think if you are going to teach about the english language, then learning how to write it is important. Script is part of the language although not a very frequent part. I think it is worth taking the time out of a 3rd grader's day.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 7:37 PM on May 16, 2010
posted by JohnnyGunn at 7:37 PM on May 16, 2010
The coolest penmanship teacher in the world would be the one that let his or her students write swear words and such as long as they did it in perfect flowing penmanship.
posted by ian1977 at 7:39 PM on May 16, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by ian1977 at 7:39 PM on May 16, 2010 [3 favorites]
I (born in 1973) was trained since (the equivalent of) 1st grade to write in cursive. To this day most, if not all of my handwriting, is in cursive.
For all my school life (6 to 26) I wrote everything in cursive. To study for exams, I would learn most of the material by taking notes, and then rewriting those, again and again filling reams upon reams of paper. Not to mention diaries and notebooks.
And yes, it has several advantages: it's considerably faster, for starters. It is a great exercise for eye/hand coordination, as said above, but most of all I find, with practice and the development of your own handwriting, you tend to focus on writing words as opposed to bunches of letters, it's a flowing gesture, and there's a completely different way in which words flow from mind to paper.
It's also beautiful, it's personal, it varies with time, mood, even the hour of the day. I have love letters and quasi-breakup notes written from the same person, and you wouldn't tell. I have handwritten notes from my mother in her 20s and 30s, and others written while she was terminally ill, in her 60s. There's an underlying common ground, and a world of difference.
Drawback: it can be *too* personal, to the point of being unreadable, sometimes even by the writer him/herself after a while. But it can be improved.
Also, it needs care. I'm slowly losing it, to a computer keyboard. And I find it sad. But I make a point of taking handwritten notes on the phone, and sending out the occasional handwritten letter or card.
So, yes, it may seem anachronistic, and it may not be the most practical of skills today, like mental calculus, but I would say it's still important.
posted by _dario at 7:41 PM on May 16, 2010 [12 favorites]
For all my school life (6 to 26) I wrote everything in cursive. To study for exams, I would learn most of the material by taking notes, and then rewriting those, again and again filling reams upon reams of paper. Not to mention diaries and notebooks.
And yes, it has several advantages: it's considerably faster, for starters. It is a great exercise for eye/hand coordination, as said above, but most of all I find, with practice and the development of your own handwriting, you tend to focus on writing words as opposed to bunches of letters, it's a flowing gesture, and there's a completely different way in which words flow from mind to paper.
It's also beautiful, it's personal, it varies with time, mood, even the hour of the day. I have love letters and quasi-breakup notes written from the same person, and you wouldn't tell. I have handwritten notes from my mother in her 20s and 30s, and others written while she was terminally ill, in her 60s. There's an underlying common ground, and a world of difference.
Drawback: it can be *too* personal, to the point of being unreadable, sometimes even by the writer him/herself after a while. But it can be improved.
Also, it needs care. I'm slowly losing it, to a computer keyboard. And I find it sad. But I make a point of taking handwritten notes on the phone, and sending out the occasional handwritten letter or card.
So, yes, it may seem anachronistic, and it may not be the most practical of skills today, like mental calculus, but I would say it's still important.
posted by _dario at 7:41 PM on May 16, 2010 [12 favorites]
Best answer: I skipped 3rd grade, so I never properly learned cursive. ("Wait a minute... that's a Q? You're shitting me!") In school, it was only useful because it was required. As an adult, it has proven entirely useless, except for my signature.
Like Roman Numerals, it's interesting, as a cultural artifact. But, practically, it belongs to the era of quill pens.
posted by SPrintF at 7:46 PM on May 16, 2010
Like Roman Numerals, it's interesting, as a cultural artifact. But, practically, it belongs to the era of quill pens.
posted by SPrintF at 7:46 PM on May 16, 2010
I print everything but my signature and get compliments on my penmanship all the time. It's a little slower than cursive, but it tends to be much clearer. I think working on penmanship is important, cursive less so.
posted by cost-cutting measures at 7:51 PM on May 16, 2010
posted by cost-cutting measures at 7:51 PM on May 16, 2010
The original point of cursive as a handwriting style is speed of execution. The aesthetic angle is a happy by-product.
As a practical matter, it makes sense to master it if you can't type or record words. Up until my university days in the late 80s and early 90s, handwriting would have been the only way I could take notes, but now I would say it's obsolete. My daughter's childish handwriting grates on me, but I can't say what actual purpose would be served by making her work on it, other than gratifying my old-fogey tastes.
Development of fine motor skills is important but could equally be achieved by teaching drawing, or a musical instrument, or word-working, or ...
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 8:00 PM on May 16, 2010
As a practical matter, it makes sense to master it if you can't type or record words. Up until my university days in the late 80s and early 90s, handwriting would have been the only way I could take notes, but now I would say it's obsolete. My daughter's childish handwriting grates on me, but I can't say what actual purpose would be served by making her work on it, other than gratifying my old-fogey tastes.
Development of fine motor skills is important but could equally be achieved by teaching drawing, or a musical instrument, or word-working, or ...
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 8:00 PM on May 16, 2010
I wish I were taught to write italic instead of cursive. Cursive is about the least legible script out there.
posted by kprincehouse at 8:01 PM on May 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by kprincehouse at 8:01 PM on May 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
(by "record words" I really mean "make an audio recording of spoken words", of course)
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 8:01 PM on May 16, 2010
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 8:01 PM on May 16, 2010
I have had students who can't read or write cursive, and what this means is they can't read my comments in the margins of their papers. I have okay cursive handwriting, not great but certainly readable if you know cursive.
My mom has fantastic cursive handwriting (more practice in her day) and it's a pleasure to read things she's written.
posted by LobsterMitten at 8:03 PM on May 16, 2010
My mom has fantastic cursive handwriting (more practice in her day) and it's a pleasure to read things she's written.
posted by LobsterMitten at 8:03 PM on May 16, 2010
I learned both in school and find cursive much faster, with the caveat that most of my capital letters are basically the print forms. (Cursive capitals are unnecessarily baroque, in my opinion.) So if you think there will be a need for hand writing in the foreseeable future, it's better for your kid to learn how to write cursive.
posted by Quietgal at 8:04 PM on May 16, 2010
posted by Quietgal at 8:04 PM on May 16, 2010
Plus, good handwriting is simply esthetically pleasing. Almost everyone under twenty-five that I know has even worse penmanship than I do, and that is sad.
I find this is true even for their printing.
posted by jgirl at 8:08 PM on May 16, 2010
I find this is true even for their printing.
posted by jgirl at 8:08 PM on May 16, 2010
Being from the UK, Palmer cursive is completely illegible to me. It might as well be in Sütterlin for all I can read it.
posted by scruss at 8:12 PM on May 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by scruss at 8:12 PM on May 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
My daughter's childish handwriting grates on me, but I can't say what actual purpose would be served by making her work on it, other than gratifying my old-fogey tastes.
Ha!
That is actually a good lesson for younger humans....This should be the class mission statement....
"Having to learn penmanship is a reminder that the older ones you are learning from both in school and beyond are going to get caught up in some arbitrary methods simply because that's the way we learned it. Learn to politely pander to the older humans' outmoded methods until you are fit to replace them...the methods that is."
posted by ian1977 at 8:12 PM on May 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
Ha!
That is actually a good lesson for younger humans....This should be the class mission statement....
"Having to learn penmanship is a reminder that the older ones you are learning from both in school and beyond are going to get caught up in some arbitrary methods simply because that's the way we learned it. Learn to politely pander to the older humans' outmoded methods until you are fit to replace them...the methods that is."
posted by ian1977 at 8:12 PM on May 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
Please also note that different countries have different forms of cursive -- at least when I last checked. UK cursive is really beautiful, aesthetically.
posted by sdn at 8:16 PM on May 16, 2010
posted by sdn at 8:16 PM on May 16, 2010
I write in a combination of cursive and print, as do many adults. I am homeschooling my kids and they are/will be learning cursive. My daughter really loves her "fancy" letters.
I find it sad that people have such a hate for it.
posted by Abbril at 8:19 PM on May 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
I find it sad that people have such a hate for it.
posted by Abbril at 8:19 PM on May 16, 2010 [2 favorites]
Is learning another language important? It doesn't have to be, but it expands the mind and the way the mind works.
You can have whatever opinion you want of cursive, but it has lots of uses, and it gets kids working on another form of communication -- which I think is great. But it's kind of pointless to ask a question you think you already know the answer to, and then go and favorite the two harshest critics while leaving those with anecdotal evidence in the dust.
posted by june made him a gemini at 8:21 PM on May 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
You can have whatever opinion you want of cursive, but it has lots of uses, and it gets kids working on another form of communication -- which I think is great. But it's kind of pointless to ask a question you think you already know the answer to, and then go and favorite the two harshest critics while leaving those with anecdotal evidence in the dust.
posted by june made him a gemini at 8:21 PM on May 16, 2010 [4 favorites]
etymology of the word penmanship
penmanship
1690s, from obsolete penman "copyist, clerk, scrivener" (1610s), from pen (1) + man.
Mousemanship? Maybe that would be an appropriate replacement for penmanship class. Teach kids to be as flowery and effective with a mouse as they would with a pen?
posted by ian1977 at 8:27 PM on May 16, 2010
penmanship
1690s, from obsolete penman "copyist, clerk, scrivener" (1610s), from pen (1) + man.
Mousemanship? Maybe that would be an appropriate replacement for penmanship class. Teach kids to be as flowery and effective with a mouse as they would with a pen?
posted by ian1977 at 8:27 PM on May 16, 2010
I think part of the problem with the way we teach cursive today is that its primary function--speed in writing--isn't particularly emphasized with the style of script commonly taught in schools today. It's inefficient, counterintuitive, and just plain difficult (that capital D is the worst, isn't it?). I recently set about to learn about alternative scripts and an italic script came up over and over again as the fastest/easiest to read. I wish I'd learned it when I was younger, because now I'm lazy and resistant.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:28 PM on May 16, 2010
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:28 PM on May 16, 2010
Cursive writing requires more coordination and fine-motor control than print writing. Someone above made the point that fine motor control and hand-eye coordination are adequately learned through video games, but there's really no comparison between carefully drawing letterforms and pushing buttons in sequence.
So what is a kid learning when they learn to write cursive? They're learning to accurately reproduce a pattern, and then perfecting that skill through repetition. They learn to do that to a certain extent when they learn to print, but the difference between print and cursive is like going from stick men to fluid figure drawing. Is it useful? Maybe, maybe not. But kids need to learn more than just what's useful.
posted by wabbittwax at 8:28 PM on May 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
So what is a kid learning when they learn to write cursive? They're learning to accurately reproduce a pattern, and then perfecting that skill through repetition. They learn to do that to a certain extent when they learn to print, but the difference between print and cursive is like going from stick men to fluid figure drawing. Is it useful? Maybe, maybe not. But kids need to learn more than just what's useful.
posted by wabbittwax at 8:28 PM on May 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
Do you think it is important enough to spend a significant amount of time out of the school day ? Most grownups I know get by when they're not typing with a print/script amalgam that suits their hand. Does anybody out there really write in cursive?
The ability to write is and should be one of the fundamental building blocks of a decent education. Not being able to do so is exactly the same as not being able to perform basic mathematics without a calculator. Do most people ever need to perform long division? Of course not. Hell, most people don't need to do any math at all beyond the most simplistic additions and subtractions. And yet it's still absurdly annoying when power goes out or whatever and cashier's can't figure out how much change we should get back from a $20.
This is similar. Most people won't need to write in cursive often if at all. But, as with the example above, there are plenty of things most people won't need that we consider part of a basic education.
posted by Justinian at 8:38 PM on May 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
The ability to write is and should be one of the fundamental building blocks of a decent education. Not being able to do so is exactly the same as not being able to perform basic mathematics without a calculator. Do most people ever need to perform long division? Of course not. Hell, most people don't need to do any math at all beyond the most simplistic additions and subtractions. And yet it's still absurdly annoying when power goes out or whatever and cashier's can't figure out how much change we should get back from a $20.
This is similar. Most people won't need to write in cursive often if at all. But, as with the example above, there are plenty of things most people won't need that we consider part of a basic education.
posted by Justinian at 8:38 PM on May 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
As someone who has graded many hand-written problem sets in math and physics, let me just say that if your handwriting is easy to read, you will be at an advantage compared to many other people. This is similar to dressing with some taste; impressions matter. If a person writes something (and no matter how many computers there are, handwriting will always be used), it makes a better impression if it is easily readable and in a mature script. Everything else being equal, a person with good handwriting seems slightly more sophisticated and adept than someone who scrawls an identical statement in chicken scratch. Perhaps it's unfortunate, but good writing does show a certain amount of respect for the intended reader. While grade school cursive may not be exactly the solution, penmanship of that ilk is the sort of thing that opens tiny doors without having to do excess work.
posted by Schismatic at 8:40 PM on May 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Schismatic at 8:40 PM on May 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
If it were about legibility and beauty, then everybody would most likely learn some form of italic script.
There are definite advantages to having good handwriting, but good handwriting is not at all synonymous with Palmer cursive.
posted by Quinbus Flestrin at 8:42 PM on May 16, 2010
There are definite advantages to having good handwriting, but good handwriting is not at all synonymous with Palmer cursive.
posted by Quinbus Flestrin at 8:42 PM on May 16, 2010
I would have come in to say that it's totally useless. My signature is not cursive any more than it's any kind of real writing. It occurred to me reading responses, though, that it gives you a whole other set of letters and way of writing to draw on when you finally form your own handwriting. I mean, if it never occurred to me that I could just make a loop for a lowercase "e," then I'd still be making horizontal lines in my "e's."
posted by cmoj at 8:45 PM on May 16, 2010
posted by cmoj at 8:45 PM on May 16, 2010
I found it physically painful to write in cursive. When I was allowed to begin typing my reports and block lettering my tests my grades improved noticeably. Where I would have previously produced a minimal one page of text I suddenly was typing three times the amount. I had a lot I wanted to say, but the need to put it in hand cramping cursive kept me from saying it.
Then, as an architecture student my first summer internship while in school was at a firm that was just beginning to transition to computer use. When they saw my poor block lettering they put me on writing specifications in block letters on to drawings for a week, using a straight edge for all verticals. Again, this was going to be an essential skill for my career.
Everything I have done since professionally has been typed.
If you want to teach students an useful skill, why not teach touch typing? I'm sure that kids could learn that at the same age and I definitely count it as one of the most valuable high school skills I learned.
posted by meinvt at 8:48 PM on May 16, 2010
Then, as an architecture student my first summer internship while in school was at a firm that was just beginning to transition to computer use. When they saw my poor block lettering they put me on writing specifications in block letters on to drawings for a week, using a straight edge for all verticals. Again, this was going to be an essential skill for my career.
Everything I have done since professionally has been typed.
If you want to teach students an useful skill, why not teach touch typing? I'm sure that kids could learn that at the same age and I definitely count it as one of the most valuable high school skills I learned.
posted by meinvt at 8:48 PM on May 16, 2010
I never learned cursive. I am 30 years old. I have never once in my life needed this skill in any way, shape or form. I almost never physically write things down on paper, and the very few times that I do, block print works just fine and people can actually read it. You might as well teach kids how to knapp flint at this point.
posted by signalnine at 8:55 PM on May 16, 2010
posted by signalnine at 8:55 PM on May 16, 2010
"I almost never physically write things down on paper"
As opposed to like, spiritually? :p
posted by ian1977 at 8:58 PM on May 16, 2010
As opposed to like, spiritually? :p
posted by ian1977 at 8:58 PM on May 16, 2010
As opposed to like, spiritually? :p
As opposed to committing words to digital media.
posted by signalnine at 9:01 PM on May 16, 2010
As opposed to committing words to digital media.
posted by signalnine at 9:01 PM on May 16, 2010
I think for today's children, the biggest benefit learning cursive brings isn't actually learning cursive, but giving their teachers and parents a chance to do a fine motor control check - if you teach it right around 7/8/9, it's a time when kids are developing even more fine motor control than they had when they were younger. A kid who is struggling might have a motor control issue that might NOT be noticed with just drawing (I know plenty of adults with great fine motor control who can't draw for crap) or even coloring.
It's also useful for that time period when a kid is old enough to need to do in-classroom assignments that require writing, but too young to be trusted with their own laptop computer, and many schools still don't have a computer for each child.
That said, I don't think we should ever grade on it. I remember too many of my classmates 'failing' the penmanship class simply because they just weren't didn't have that kind of control yet.
posted by FritoKAL at 9:03 PM on May 16, 2010
It's also useful for that time period when a kid is old enough to need to do in-classroom assignments that require writing, but too young to be trusted with their own laptop computer, and many schools still don't have a computer for each child.
That said, I don't think we should ever grade on it. I remember too many of my classmates 'failing' the penmanship class simply because they just weren't didn't have that kind of control yet.
posted by FritoKAL at 9:03 PM on May 16, 2010
The important thing is that people *did* write in cursive, very recently and do now. In order for information not to be lost, one must be able to read it and the best way to be able to read it is to learn to do it. If a student hopes to do research with primary sources, she or he will need to be able to decipher cursive.
I am thinking here especially of an important contributor to my own professional sphere whose collection includes much information recorded in shorthand. I do not read shorthand and so could not begin to tell you which of his voluminous notes recorded in the system are important and are worth looking at more closely. Even though these notes are in "English," they are close to lost.
Much more twentieth-century primary source information is held in non-shorthand foreign language cursive. Believe me, that holds a difficult challenge to translators, who must also deal with archaic technological terms and conventions.
"The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there."
posted by Morrigan at 9:06 PM on May 16, 2010
I am thinking here especially of an important contributor to my own professional sphere whose collection includes much information recorded in shorthand. I do not read shorthand and so could not begin to tell you which of his voluminous notes recorded in the system are important and are worth looking at more closely. Even though these notes are in "English," they are close to lost.
Much more twentieth-century primary source information is held in non-shorthand foreign language cursive. Believe me, that holds a difficult challenge to translators, who must also deal with archaic technological terms and conventions.
"The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there."
posted by Morrigan at 9:06 PM on May 16, 2010
I am grateful as hell to cursive writing, because I don't always have a computer to write on and I've spent a lot of time desperately needing to write faster to keep up with a speaker.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:08 PM on May 16, 2010
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:08 PM on May 16, 2010
I'm in the 'for' group, too. I agree with some of the philosophical and practical reasons mentioned above. I don't think OP is going to accept philosophical reasons, so I'll add a couple more practical ones that haven't been mentioned so far. (Or hadn't by the time I started this.)
First, applied physiology. Around the age of 18, your daughter will be given a fixed-gear racer and told to cycle as far as she can in three hours. The outcome of the time-trial will decide her progression to college. At college, something similar will happen, and the outcome will strongly influence her access to most careers. She currently totters along on a kid's bike with stabilizer wheels. Do you teach her to ride better? In physical terms, this is what writing exams will be like for your daughter, as it is for a lot of children/young people. I've marked the results, it's not pretty.
Second, more general applications. Writing by hand is a very good exercise to get you thinking. When I need to prepare for a presentation, a chapter, or a class, the best place to start is with a legal pad and a pen that writes well--it's often how I get around a 'block' when I'm sitting at my laptop. There are several reasons (psychological and neurological) why this works, but work it does--and it would work for preparing any kind of task that needs to be thought out in advance. Being able to write smoothly, clearly, and quickly makes this exercise even more efficient.
Like several other people here, I'm basically a cursive/print mix kind of person, and I wish I had better handwriting. It improved in my 20s when I learned a language with a different script and paid some (not enough) attention to writing so I didn't have a kid's handwriting. My brother did a lot of calligraphy when he was younger--his handwriting looks like mine only nicer. He's a creative type, professionally, and always has a notebook and pen with him for catching ideas. They get put on the laptop later. I know that we both use handwriting as a tool for much more than inscribing shapes on a surface. (Our sister, I'm afraid, still writes like a kid. I mean, it's improved, but still.) We're in the 29-34 range.
The actual style of cursive doesn't matter at all, if it's smooth to write and passably legible. A style is worth having. Also, I think june made him a gemini has a point about prejudging answers.
posted by lapsangsouchong at 9:13 PM on May 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
First, applied physiology. Around the age of 18, your daughter will be given a fixed-gear racer and told to cycle as far as she can in three hours. The outcome of the time-trial will decide her progression to college. At college, something similar will happen, and the outcome will strongly influence her access to most careers. She currently totters along on a kid's bike with stabilizer wheels. Do you teach her to ride better? In physical terms, this is what writing exams will be like for your daughter, as it is for a lot of children/young people. I've marked the results, it's not pretty.
Second, more general applications. Writing by hand is a very good exercise to get you thinking. When I need to prepare for a presentation, a chapter, or a class, the best place to start is with a legal pad and a pen that writes well--it's often how I get around a 'block' when I'm sitting at my laptop. There are several reasons (psychological and neurological) why this works, but work it does--and it would work for preparing any kind of task that needs to be thought out in advance. Being able to write smoothly, clearly, and quickly makes this exercise even more efficient.
Like several other people here, I'm basically a cursive/print mix kind of person, and I wish I had better handwriting. It improved in my 20s when I learned a language with a different script and paid some (not enough) attention to writing so I didn't have a kid's handwriting. My brother did a lot of calligraphy when he was younger--his handwriting looks like mine only nicer. He's a creative type, professionally, and always has a notebook and pen with him for catching ideas. They get put on the laptop later. I know that we both use handwriting as a tool for much more than inscribing shapes on a surface. (Our sister, I'm afraid, still writes like a kid. I mean, it's improved, but still.) We're in the 29-34 range.
The actual style of cursive doesn't matter at all, if it's smooth to write and passably legible. A style is worth having. Also, I think june made him a gemini has a point about prejudging answers.
posted by lapsangsouchong at 9:13 PM on May 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
As someone with kinesthetic learning tendencies, I have always taken copious HANDWRITTEN notes in class. I rarely have to go back to study them as long as I hand-write them the first time, which helps me commit the ideas to memory. However, if I type notes (and I type hella fast), the ideas don't enter my brain the same way -- something I figured out by the skin of my teeth in college when encouraged to take computerized notes and discovering I couldn't RETAIN anything that way ... and I'd end up sitting at my desk in the evening, laboriously hand-copying everything I'd typed so that I could remember it!
(As a part-time professor, I notice my hand-noting students almost always do better than my computer-noting students on quizzes on class content, assuming students of nearly equivalent ability based on their grades on out-of-class papers, and assuming computer-noters who I know are NOT playing solitaire, so I'm not the only one.)
Even today I never attend a meeting without a trusty yellow legal pad to take notes on, even if I'm given a comprehensive agenda and lovely hand-outs and my notes are random jottings of keywords that don't connect at all -- I need the mind/hand connection to remember what I hear better. (Incidentally, while it doesn't work if I type, it WILL work if I'm embroidering, but people think it's sort-of weird when you show up for a business meeting with embroidery.)
Cursive is a considerably faster way for me to take notes than printing, and requires less looking at the page (more looking at the speaker).
Incidentally, I use cursive quite a bit socially as well. I send a lot of thank-you notes (wedding, baby, bread-and-butter, Christmas, hey-you-did-something-awesome, etc.) as well as social and professional notes of various sorts. A handwritten note is more appropriate than an e-mail for some situations, and block-printing just looks childish. (Although I think men in professional situations can get away with block printing where women couldn't.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:19 PM on May 16, 2010
(As a part-time professor, I notice my hand-noting students almost always do better than my computer-noting students on quizzes on class content, assuming students of nearly equivalent ability based on their grades on out-of-class papers, and assuming computer-noters who I know are NOT playing solitaire, so I'm not the only one.)
Even today I never attend a meeting without a trusty yellow legal pad to take notes on, even if I'm given a comprehensive agenda and lovely hand-outs and my notes are random jottings of keywords that don't connect at all -- I need the mind/hand connection to remember what I hear better. (Incidentally, while it doesn't work if I type, it WILL work if I'm embroidering, but people think it's sort-of weird when you show up for a business meeting with embroidery.)
Cursive is a considerably faster way for me to take notes than printing, and requires less looking at the page (more looking at the speaker).
Incidentally, I use cursive quite a bit socially as well. I send a lot of thank-you notes (wedding, baby, bread-and-butter, Christmas, hey-you-did-something-awesome, etc.) as well as social and professional notes of various sorts. A handwritten note is more appropriate than an e-mail for some situations, and block-printing just looks childish. (Although I think men in professional situations can get away with block printing where women couldn't.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:19 PM on May 16, 2010
I don't buy this concept that learning to write cursive is helpful for reading it. Few people write the way cursive is taught. I know cursive, and I find it extremely difficult to read, to the point where there is a lot of ambiguity in a number of words.
I write, rather than type, notes for any class that will have a written in class test. I try to write in a way that someone will be able to read it, which means printing. Cursive is also slower.
Cursive is useful for distinguishing type of notes, and I very occasionally use it to make notes about my notes, usually as an explanation either about an equation or something to be typed. I probably use it about once every 50 pages of handwriting.
I suppose I should use it in the very occasional written letter, as the people who like letters probably like cursive also, but it had not occurred to me to do so before this moment.
As for if it's useful to teach, perhaps for some children it helps their comprehension to write in such a way. Maybe the sort of children who grow up to be non-mefites.
posted by yohko at 9:40 PM on May 16, 2010
I write, rather than type, notes for any class that will have a written in class test. I try to write in a way that someone will be able to read it, which means printing. Cursive is also slower.
Cursive is useful for distinguishing type of notes, and I very occasionally use it to make notes about my notes, usually as an explanation either about an equation or something to be typed. I probably use it about once every 50 pages of handwriting.
I suppose I should use it in the very occasional written letter, as the people who like letters probably like cursive also, but it had not occurred to me to do so before this moment.
As for if it's useful to teach, perhaps for some children it helps their comprehension to write in such a way. Maybe the sort of children who grow up to be non-mefites.
posted by yohko at 9:40 PM on May 16, 2010
Everyone I know writes cursive. I'm astonished by this question. It's quicker and easier.
posted by pompomtom at 9:43 PM on May 16, 2010
posted by pompomtom at 9:43 PM on May 16, 2010
That Slate article linked upthread is good, incidentally. One guy in it, from Vanderbilt, says something completely dumb:
NB--None of the above are arguments against using the currently-available technology in schools. They're arguments for teaching handwriting.
Now I'm going to bed.
posted by lapsangsouchong at 9:44 PM on May 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
Sure, he says, kids need a basic ability to handwrite letters, but for fluency with the written word the keyboard is far superior. Children can easily correct mistakes and move text, and when they print out their work it's guaranteed to look good. "It's more motivating," says Graham.First, as Eyebrows McGee says, typing doesn't have the kinesthetic 'value' of writing by hand. Second, I've read plenty of essays (and for that matter, newspaper articles, official letters...) where ctrl+x, ctrl+c, and ctrl+v had seriously hindered the structure and coherence not just of the final output but also, evidently, the writer's 'thinking skills'--as in, ability to start a thought and follow it through. Starting your learning with cut, copy, paste instead of think, write, read... Eeeek! Third, "when they print out their work"--because I always have a computer, a printer, paper, and an electricity supply with me when I need to write something down that other people need to be able to read. Fourth, "it's guaranteed to look good"--this is not necessarily beneficial for learning, as when Calvin thinks that putting his hastily-written book report in plastic covers will get him an A. Fifth, if "motivating" means teaching students it's a waste of time and effort to acquire complex but useful skills... I mean, I could go on.
NB--None of the above are arguments against using the currently-available technology in schools. They're arguments for teaching handwriting.
Now I'm going to bed.
posted by lapsangsouchong at 9:44 PM on May 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
Pretty much no one in my country learns or writes cursive, at least not any time recently (I'm 34, my grandma used cursive, my parents don't). Apparently there are a few teachers here and there that do it but it's not standard. And I write really really fast regardless (but then I also still take notes by hand both in class and when reading things I need to learn so I'm in practise).
If entire countries can get by without then yeah, it's not necessary.
posted by shelleycat at 9:46 PM on May 16, 2010
If entire countries can get by without then yeah, it's not necessary.
posted by shelleycat at 9:46 PM on May 16, 2010
People who write in cursive all the time say it's faster BECAUSE THAT'S HOW THEY WRITE! Of course they think it's faster compared to regular script, because they aren't used to regular script.
It's an anachronistic historical accident, nothing more.
posted by zachawry at 9:51 PM on May 16, 2010
It's an anachronistic historical accident, nothing more.
posted by zachawry at 9:51 PM on May 16, 2010
I will challenge anyone in the thread to try to write faster and more legibly using their printing against my cursive!
The way you organize your thoughts is partially determined by the method that you use to organize those thoughts. As a sometimes avid journaler, I notice that my style of thinking and writing change depending if I am on the comp or off grid using paper and pen.
I also used to grumble about having to learn rote math memorization when I had calculators available. But when I have to do math it is waaay faster just to do it, rather than relying on another battery operated tool.
posted by psycho-alchemy at 9:56 PM on May 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
The way you organize your thoughts is partially determined by the method that you use to organize those thoughts. As a sometimes avid journaler, I notice that my style of thinking and writing change depending if I am on the comp or off grid using paper and pen.
I also used to grumble about having to learn rote math memorization when I had calculators available. But when I have to do math it is waaay faster just to do it, rather than relying on another battery operated tool.
posted by psycho-alchemy at 9:56 PM on May 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
What I was taught as "cursive" was basically a modified Italic. And it is faster than printing each letter separately. That's the whole reason cursive scripts exist. OK, full-on copperplate is slow and more or less decorative, but linked up letters with minimal strokes are the fastest way apart from shorthand.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 9:58 PM on May 16, 2010
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 9:58 PM on May 16, 2010
(You’ve already given Best Answer to the answers you came here hoping to get, but ...) If by cursive you mean loops, then, no, not essential. But count me with those who believe that children should definitely be taught – in school – fluent, rapid handwriting. Not necessarily with loops and constantly connected letters, but at least some hybrid form of a rapid italic. It can be seriously useful -- and not having it can be detrimental -- in school and in many adult occupations. I wouldn't deprive students of this skill just because some people (or even most people) don’t use it. I wonder if more people would use it more readily if they had received better training from their teachers.
Also: [a] Several academic studies have found that good handwriting skills at a young age can help children express their thoughts better; [b] Teachers may say they don't deduct for bad handwriting in class, but research reveals that when given the same composition written in good handwriting and poor handwriting, "they still give lower grades for ideation and quality of writing if the text is less legible"; [c] SAT essays written in cursive had slightly higher average scores than those written in print, according to the College Board.
posted by Dave 9 at 10:00 PM on May 16, 2010 [9 favorites]
Also: [a] Several academic studies have found that good handwriting skills at a young age can help children express their thoughts better; [b] Teachers may say they don't deduct for bad handwriting in class, but research reveals that when given the same composition written in good handwriting and poor handwriting, "they still give lower grades for ideation and quality of writing if the text is less legible"; [c] SAT essays written in cursive had slightly higher average scores than those written in print, according to the College Board.
posted by Dave 9 at 10:00 PM on May 16, 2010 [9 favorites]
I'm 20 and use cursive almost exclusively, but that didn't start until I was 15-16 and living in Germany, where one of my teachers mandated taking exams in fountain pen. I'm often astonished at the poor penmanship of many of my peers -- I'm not sure how they could have made it through school (when I was in elementary school, there was still a pretty significant emphasis put on learning handwriting) and still write like they do now. Should I have children, which is still pretty up in the air at this point, I hope they learn cursive in school and that they have good handwriting... at this point, ability to communicate through the written word is still really important, in my opinion. Pen and paper are not obsolete at this point...
posted by naturalog at 10:02 PM on May 16, 2010
posted by naturalog at 10:02 PM on May 16, 2010
Nthing italics! To my mind, it's the only useful form of cursive handwriting and I didn't learn it until I was, I don't know, 22 or 23.
To speak to your question more directly, I actually think being able to write more quickly and legibly had a pronounced effect on me, since it was more fun to take notes when you could actually read the results -- and I think taking notes keeps my attention from wandering quite as badly during meetings, talks, etc. (But I hated traditional cursive, so I guess that means I'm only somewhat in favor.)
posted by en forme de poire at 10:29 PM on May 16, 2010
To speak to your question more directly, I actually think being able to write more quickly and legibly had a pronounced effect on me, since it was more fun to take notes when you could actually read the results -- and I think taking notes keeps my attention from wandering quite as badly during meetings, talks, etc. (But I hated traditional cursive, so I guess that means I'm only somewhat in favor.)
posted by en forme de poire at 10:29 PM on May 16, 2010
Knowing how to write properly with joined letters will give you much faster handwriting in the long run and save a lot of hand-strain, and the ability to read joined letters is likewise important.
Knowing Zaner-Bloser or D'nealian cursive is not the only way to achieve this. It is a way of achieving this. Italic hand with joined/unjoined letters is another. Whatever print script you happen to use with whatever offhand joining you devise can work, but is usually less comfortable and readable in the long run than a way of doing this that is used by other people.
posted by gracedissolved at 10:47 PM on May 16, 2010
Knowing Zaner-Bloser or D'nealian cursive is not the only way to achieve this. It is a way of achieving this. Italic hand with joined/unjoined letters is another. Whatever print script you happen to use with whatever offhand joining you devise can work, but is usually less comfortable and readable in the long run than a way of doing this that is used by other people.
posted by gracedissolved at 10:47 PM on May 16, 2010
Well, if you're not in the US, then you may very well have to take a bunch of essay exams that you aren't going to type, but write in long-hand. Cursive is a lot faster than printing in that case. Also, in much of the world, the machines that typing is dependent on are simply not available. I think people often tend to forget how useful a low tech skill like handwriting is. Cursive (and most people as they grow older tend to vary from the exact forms they were taught) adds efficiency to the low tech skill.
So, if you're in the US (or other similar country) and likely to have access to computers/typewriters any time you need to write extended text, then no, perhaps it doesn't make sense to teach cursive/some method of joined hand writing. But for a lot of the world it still makes a great deal of sense.
posted by bardophile at 11:11 PM on May 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
So, if you're in the US (or other similar country) and likely to have access to computers/typewriters any time you need to write extended text, then no, perhaps it doesn't make sense to teach cursive/some method of joined hand writing. But for a lot of the world it still makes a great deal of sense.
posted by bardophile at 11:11 PM on May 16, 2010 [1 favorite]
I hand draft, and printing is my common form of writing and note taking- has been for many years. I've certainly spent more time printing than handwriting. However, when I've got to write two essays in two hours for a final, I use handwriting. It's much faster and more legible than printing.
So,i would say, "yes", though it's clear that's not what you want to hear. But I do lots of drawing, painting, sketching, sewing, and other things that require fine motor control and are totally superfluous skills for a lot of people. The more tools and skillsets, the better, IMO. Most adults that are getting by with a print/script amalgam are able to do so because they once were taught how to connect letters. They may not write in perfect cursive any more, but that doesn't mean that learning experience hasn't served them in some way.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:40 PM on May 16, 2010
So,i would say, "yes", though it's clear that's not what you want to hear. But I do lots of drawing, painting, sketching, sewing, and other things that require fine motor control and are totally superfluous skills for a lot of people. The more tools and skillsets, the better, IMO. Most adults that are getting by with a print/script amalgam are able to do so because they once were taught how to connect letters. They may not write in perfect cursive any more, but that doesn't mean that learning experience hasn't served them in some way.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:40 PM on May 16, 2010
Does anybody out there really write in cursive?
I do. Just turned 21, and I get my fair share of compliments and envy from my peers. I'm proud of my handwriting, because I know it's something I do better than almost anyone else I know - ok, perhaps I'm overly vain, but it does make me feel accomplished to see a page I've covered in lovely, flowing script. I never feel half as accomplished reaching the page break on a word processor.
Do you think it is important enough to spend a significant amount of time out of the school day ?
Do I? Yes, to a degree. Do you? From the phrasing of your question and the best answers you've marked, I'd guess not. Ultimately your opinion will prevail over that of Random Internet Stranger - restrain incredulity, MeFites - but as a data point, if I were you, I'd at least tell the kids that this mystical form of writing was once valued by society, and is still appreciated by some, and perhaps throw in other interesting things commenters have mentioned about how modes of thought and writing are intertwined. Definitely provide those interested with tracers, and even hang these beautiful color illustrations (Jan Brett! Oh man, so excited to find these when googling tracers for my partner, who's been inspired by my script to improve his own less scrumptious handwriting), though of course not the dreaded D.
Your point about not forcing kids to learn this when it's practically outdated is a fair one, and I'm not one for being a strict disciplinarian with kids. However, I'm definitely of the school that kids don't know what's best for them. I really wish my parents had taught me the language of their country of origin when I was little; as it is, I'm stuck in this odd cultural grey zone, and often very uncomfortable when we go back "home" ... all this to say, if you force the blighters to learn cursive, they'll hate you at the time, but they'll probably thank you in the future.
posted by Devika at 12:19 AM on May 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
I do. Just turned 21, and I get my fair share of compliments and envy from my peers. I'm proud of my handwriting, because I know it's something I do better than almost anyone else I know - ok, perhaps I'm overly vain, but it does make me feel accomplished to see a page I've covered in lovely, flowing script. I never feel half as accomplished reaching the page break on a word processor.
Do you think it is important enough to spend a significant amount of time out of the school day ?
Do I? Yes, to a degree. Do you? From the phrasing of your question and the best answers you've marked, I'd guess not. Ultimately your opinion will prevail over that of Random Internet Stranger - restrain incredulity, MeFites - but as a data point, if I were you, I'd at least tell the kids that this mystical form of writing was once valued by society, and is still appreciated by some, and perhaps throw in other interesting things commenters have mentioned about how modes of thought and writing are intertwined. Definitely provide those interested with tracers, and even hang these beautiful color illustrations (Jan Brett! Oh man, so excited to find these when googling tracers for my partner, who's been inspired by my script to improve his own less scrumptious handwriting), though of course not the dreaded D.
Your point about not forcing kids to learn this when it's practically outdated is a fair one, and I'm not one for being a strict disciplinarian with kids. However, I'm definitely of the school that kids don't know what's best for them. I really wish my parents had taught me the language of their country of origin when I was little; as it is, I'm stuck in this odd cultural grey zone, and often very uncomfortable when we go back "home" ... all this to say, if you force the blighters to learn cursive, they'll hate you at the time, but they'll probably thank you in the future.
posted by Devika at 12:19 AM on May 17, 2010 [2 favorites]
I can't cite anything right now, so this is just anecdotal, I guess.
Somebody mentioned quill pens up above, I remember reading somewhere (useless, I know) that cursive was a way to keep from smudging or spattering the ink when you lifted your quill pen. Keep it on the paper, then there's no spatter. People don't really use quill pens anymore. Just saying. Also, some Asian cultures love words in English whether they are spelled right or even make sense. It's the aesthetic. This was also the case back in the day, no one cared if you spelled your words right as long as they looked pretty.
posted by bam at 12:29 AM on May 17, 2010
Somebody mentioned quill pens up above, I remember reading somewhere (useless, I know) that cursive was a way to keep from smudging or spattering the ink when you lifted your quill pen. Keep it on the paper, then there's no spatter. People don't really use quill pens anymore. Just saying. Also, some Asian cultures love words in English whether they are spelled right or even make sense. It's the aesthetic. This was also the case back in the day, no one cared if you spelled your words right as long as they looked pretty.
posted by bam at 12:29 AM on May 17, 2010
Nnthing Italics.
Italics does all the things that Palmer Method Cursive claims to do but doesn't really do. Palmer is frankly, shit. For a long time it wasn't even taught left handed so lefties had to write with their wrong hands. What kind of writing system is that? It's not faster, it's not more legible, more uniform or anything its proponents claim. (And yes, I read all of your posts up above.)
I have genetically bad handwriting despite the physical abuse of stern teachers growing up. Recently I've been retraining my handwriting into italics writing and it's awesome. Fluid, easy, fast, and most important its legible as English to anyone anywhere in the world. And it looks great. As soon as I picked it up I immediately cursed all the painful hours wasted on cursive. Cursive is an evil waste to teach. But I'm all for schools teaching italics. It's slow to retrain myself since 80% of the writing I do in any given month is writing my rent check, but I'm getting there.
posted by Ookseer at 1:40 AM on May 17, 2010
Italics does all the things that Palmer Method Cursive claims to do but doesn't really do. Palmer is frankly, shit. For a long time it wasn't even taught left handed so lefties had to write with their wrong hands. What kind of writing system is that? It's not faster, it's not more legible, more uniform or anything its proponents claim. (And yes, I read all of your posts up above.)
I have genetically bad handwriting despite the physical abuse of stern teachers growing up. Recently I've been retraining my handwriting into italics writing and it's awesome. Fluid, easy, fast, and most important its legible as English to anyone anywhere in the world. And it looks great. As soon as I picked it up I immediately cursed all the painful hours wasted on cursive. Cursive is an evil waste to teach. But I'm all for schools teaching italics. It's slow to retrain myself since 80% of the writing I do in any given month is writing my rent check, but I'm getting there.
posted by Ookseer at 1:40 AM on May 17, 2010
Best answer: It's another way of expressing yourself. Like dance.
posted by Obscure Reference at 4:36 AM on May 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Obscure Reference at 4:36 AM on May 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
Personally, I never learnt a formal system of joined-up handwriting, but at school we all had to get to a point where we could link up letters and write in a flowing way. Although it didn't guarantee neat handwriting (I knew a lot of people whose writing was practically illegible, despite all the letters joining up properly), it was definitely fast. That certainly counts in exams (I didn't realise until I read it upthread that in the US you don't have to do extended essays in your exams...so jealous right now), but more than that, it's worth it for speed.
I work with computers all day - there is no situation in which I couldn't pull up Notepad if I wanted to jot something down - and yet I still always have a physical notepad on my desk, and I use it constantly. So long as you can find a way of writing that is fast, legible and easy to do, the exact style doesn't matter, but I would say that it is definitely worth learning in some form or other.
posted by ZsigE at 5:32 AM on May 17, 2010
I work with computers all day - there is no situation in which I couldn't pull up Notepad if I wanted to jot something down - and yet I still always have a physical notepad on my desk, and I use it constantly. So long as you can find a way of writing that is fast, legible and easy to do, the exact style doesn't matter, but I would say that it is definitely worth learning in some form or other.
posted by ZsigE at 5:32 AM on May 17, 2010
I am 28 years old, and have been keeping journals and notebooks since I was 7. I write almost exclusively in cursive.
My print handwriting is pretty bad (despite many efforts to correct it), and my cursive is much better. Cursive is rhythmic and fun, and it lends a lot of discipline to my otherwise helter-skelter thought processes. I can't emphasize enough how much more disciplined I become, as a thinker and a writer, when I'm using cursive -- as opposed to when I'm chickenscratching or typing.
In my opinion, there is never anything silly or useless about learning a skill. And whenever I think of my mother's and grandmother's beautiful cursive, I hope such skill is never abandoned by successive generations. My grandmother's handwriting can turn a googly-eyed-dog birthday card into something astonishing, worth keeping in a scrapbook forever.
I find it depressing that people deem cursive "useless" because it's perceived as merely expressive, ornamental, arbritrary, or old-fashioned. If that's the criteria we're going to use to evaluate the worth of things, we can dispose of art and music, I guess. You appear to only be interested in answers that validate what you already believe, so I'm not sure why you asked this question at all.
posted by Coatlicue at 5:50 AM on May 17, 2010 [3 favorites]
My print handwriting is pretty bad (despite many efforts to correct it), and my cursive is much better. Cursive is rhythmic and fun, and it lends a lot of discipline to my otherwise helter-skelter thought processes. I can't emphasize enough how much more disciplined I become, as a thinker and a writer, when I'm using cursive -- as opposed to when I'm chickenscratching or typing.
In my opinion, there is never anything silly or useless about learning a skill. And whenever I think of my mother's and grandmother's beautiful cursive, I hope such skill is never abandoned by successive generations. My grandmother's handwriting can turn a googly-eyed-dog birthday card into something astonishing, worth keeping in a scrapbook forever.
I find it depressing that people deem cursive "useless" because it's perceived as merely expressive, ornamental, arbritrary, or old-fashioned. If that's the criteria we're going to use to evaluate the worth of things, we can dispose of art and music, I guess. You appear to only be interested in answers that validate what you already believe, so I'm not sure why you asked this question at all.
posted by Coatlicue at 5:50 AM on May 17, 2010 [3 favorites]
I've wished for a long time that my handwriting was better than it is. I dumped cursive the second I could because it seemed a waste of time and girly. I don't regret it, but have found myself wishing I knew it, or shorthand, to keep up with taking notes from a person speaking, whether it be someone giving me directions or at a meeting. I'm 31, work exclusively in IT, and will practice italics now thanks to this thread. I think your students would appreciate it too.
posted by jwells at 5:59 AM on May 17, 2010
posted by jwells at 5:59 AM on May 17, 2010
I think one major purpose of placing so much emphasis on handwriting in schools is as a humiliation ritual. You can use it to deemphasize the content of a child's work and disparage it based on handwriting instead.
Having said that, I still use cursive very often. I write thank-you letters and condolence letters which are properly written by hand rather than typed (unless the writer has an injury or such) because handwriting requires additional effort and has a personal dimension, both of which heighten the effect of the personal handwritten letter. (If I think I'm going to need to make a lot of drafts, I draft it on the computer first and then copy it out.) Also, by handwriting the envelope (in block-letters) the personal touch contributes to the first impression. If it's an invitation, and the recipient opens an envelope hand-addressed to them, then subliminally they get the impression that they've been personally handpicked as a guest rather than included as a datapoint in my mailing list which was then sent to a printer along with hundreds of other addresses. I mean it's nice to think, "Cool! I've been added to the mailing list for X's wedding!" but just that little bit nicer to think, "Cool! I'm invited to X's wedding [with the vague connotation that it's individual and personal]!"
I do find that cursive flows more easily than printing and far more easily than ball-and-stick joined, which was imposed on me when I moved to the UK after struggling mightily to learn cursive in North America. ("No loops! Loops are just laziness!" snapped my teacher, evidence that the teaching of handwriting is used as much as a means of attacking a child's character as anything else.) It is especially comfortable if you use a fountain pen, which I do.
I did try using a typewriter to do my homework a number of times as a chiild and I was shot down each and every time and told to use handwriting. I have always vastly preferred typing and can type very very fast. Since my shorthand is slower than my typing, and also has to be transcribed, I only use shorthand if there's no keyboard available.
So I write all this as somebody who vastly prefers typing, had bad experiences with penmanship lessons, and doesn't write by hand very often, and I still think learning cursive is a good idea.
posted by tel3path at 6:11 AM on May 17, 2010
Having said that, I still use cursive very often. I write thank-you letters and condolence letters which are properly written by hand rather than typed (unless the writer has an injury or such) because handwriting requires additional effort and has a personal dimension, both of which heighten the effect of the personal handwritten letter. (If I think I'm going to need to make a lot of drafts, I draft it on the computer first and then copy it out.) Also, by handwriting the envelope (in block-letters) the personal touch contributes to the first impression. If it's an invitation, and the recipient opens an envelope hand-addressed to them, then subliminally they get the impression that they've been personally handpicked as a guest rather than included as a datapoint in my mailing list which was then sent to a printer along with hundreds of other addresses. I mean it's nice to think, "Cool! I've been added to the mailing list for X's wedding!" but just that little bit nicer to think, "Cool! I'm invited to X's wedding [with the vague connotation that it's individual and personal]!"
I do find that cursive flows more easily than printing and far more easily than ball-and-stick joined, which was imposed on me when I moved to the UK after struggling mightily to learn cursive in North America. ("No loops! Loops are just laziness!" snapped my teacher, evidence that the teaching of handwriting is used as much as a means of attacking a child's character as anything else.) It is especially comfortable if you use a fountain pen, which I do.
I did try using a typewriter to do my homework a number of times as a chiild and I was shot down each and every time and told to use handwriting. I have always vastly preferred typing and can type very very fast. Since my shorthand is slower than my typing, and also has to be transcribed, I only use shorthand if there's no keyboard available.
So I write all this as somebody who vastly prefers typing, had bad experiences with penmanship lessons, and doesn't write by hand very often, and I still think learning cursive is a good idea.
posted by tel3path at 6:11 AM on May 17, 2010
Cursive writing exercises is how you find out if a student has ADHD.
More importantly, however, is that it is about the process of learning and honing a skill. How to do something over and over, making minor improvements and corrections along the way.
Also important, I think, is the idea mentioned upthread where it teaches students to think a little differently about words versus letters and flow of thought.
It is no more or less important than learning block printing or touch typing- it is a slightly different way of communicating.
posted by gjc at 6:21 AM on May 17, 2010
More importantly, however, is that it is about the process of learning and honing a skill. How to do something over and over, making minor improvements and corrections along the way.
Also important, I think, is the idea mentioned upthread where it teaches students to think a little differently about words versus letters and flow of thought.
It is no more or less important than learning block printing or touch typing- it is a slightly different way of communicating.
posted by gjc at 6:21 AM on May 17, 2010
It's not a bad idea to make sure we maintain skills that are useful in a non-technological world. Being able to write a note in a blackout, or on a boat, or in the middle of a forest or a third-world village... I'd hate to think of the keyboard becoming such a crutch we can't communicate without it.
And cursive really is just faster and easier for writing more than a sentence or two, and for taking notes as others have said.
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 7:07 AM on May 17, 2010
And cursive really is just faster and easier for writing more than a sentence or two, and for taking notes as others have said.
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 7:07 AM on May 17, 2010
From a non- American point of view: writing cursive gives you the distinction of not having immature handwriting that's impossible to take seriously.
To me, if you don't write a"grown-up" document in cursive, then you didn't develop your brain beyond the teenage stage. I know it's harsh, but it's the automatic opinion that jumps into my mind. I know most people from Latin America would agree.
posted by Tarumba at 7:19 AM on May 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
To me, if you don't write a"grown-up" document in cursive, then you didn't develop your brain beyond the teenage stage. I know it's harsh, but it's the automatic opinion that jumps into my mind. I know most people from Latin America would agree.
posted by Tarumba at 7:19 AM on May 17, 2010 [1 favorite]
Best answer: From a Good Magazine article on why we should stop teaching handwriting:
"We cling to handwriting out of a romantic sense that script expresses identity."
posted by danceswithlight at 7:54 AM on May 17, 2010
"We cling to handwriting out of a romantic sense that script expresses identity."
posted by danceswithlight at 7:54 AM on May 17, 2010
And cursive really is just faster and easier for writing more than a sentence or two
This depends rather strongly on the individual. Like, I think, a lot of boys my age, I was made to start using Palmer cursive before my coordination had really caught up, and it froze into something that was both hard to read and difficult and time-consuming to write.
So for me, writing in cursive is and always was slower and more difficult than writing in block letters. And by a wide margin.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:49 AM on May 17, 2010
This depends rather strongly on the individual. Like, I think, a lot of boys my age, I was made to start using Palmer cursive before my coordination had really caught up, and it froze into something that was both hard to read and difficult and time-consuming to write.
So for me, writing in cursive is and always was slower and more difficult than writing in block letters. And by a wide margin.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:49 AM on May 17, 2010
I'm surprised people think cursive is outdated. I take notes by hand all the time, and having legible, fast handwriting is essential. It's just not always practical to use a laptop or some other electronic method for note-taking. Maybe other people are using the word "cursive" in a more specific sense than I am, but to me cursive is just joined writing. We were taught a particular way of making the letters in school (Palmer, maybe?), which most people pretty quickly individualized. (The capital D and Q were probably the first to go.) So, no, having a very particular form of joined writing is perhaps outdated, but having a legible, fast handwriting is a useful and necessary skill in my world. (Print may be faster for some people, but I still think learning cursive is useful because, in my experience, people individualize how they write. Having cursive in your arsenal expands your possibilities, even if you end up rejecting most of it.)
posted by Mavri at 9:54 AM on May 17, 2010
posted by Mavri at 9:54 AM on May 17, 2010
Cursive writing exercises is how you find out if a student has ADHD.
Seriously? Because I've heard of some pretty terrible ad hoc amateur psychology, but this really takes the cake.
posted by 256 at 11:50 AM on May 17, 2010
Seriously? Because I've heard of some pretty terrible ad hoc amateur psychology, but this really takes the cake.
posted by 256 at 11:50 AM on May 17, 2010
I write in cursive, still, when I want my writing to be attractive. Ordinarily, my handwriting is a mesh of print and cursive.
OP, from the Best Answers marked, it seems like you aren't even interested in viewpoints contrary to your predefined opinion (e.g., cursive is outdated and teaching it is a waste of time). Why'd you even ask?
posted by ardent at 5:31 PM on May 17, 2010 [3 favorites]
OP, from the Best Answers marked, it seems like you aren't even interested in viewpoints contrary to your predefined opinion (e.g., cursive is outdated and teaching it is a waste of time). Why'd you even ask?
posted by ardent at 5:31 PM on May 17, 2010 [3 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by fings at 6:55 PM on May 16, 2010