Why are NY subways so annoying?
May 5, 2010 8:01 PM Subscribe
Why are New York subways so infuriating? --Frustrated Subway Traveler
More specifically:
1. What are the main reasons that they are late?
2. Why do you sometimes see two identical trains (say, C trains) in a row on a multi-train track (e.g. C/E)?
3. Why do trains sometimes stop in the middle, then start, but crawl forward, and then stop again? Why start in the first place if they have to do that?!
4. Why do trains sometimes run at what seems like half-speed?
5. On what schedule do conductors do their public service announcements? Seems like I'll go a long time without some message about how groping on the subway is illegal or to pay attention and report suspicious activity, and then, suddenly, a barrage of messages. What gives?
All right, glad I got all that off my chest.
More specifically:
1. What are the main reasons that they are late?
2. Why do you sometimes see two identical trains (say, C trains) in a row on a multi-train track (e.g. C/E)?
3. Why do trains sometimes stop in the middle, then start, but crawl forward, and then stop again? Why start in the first place if they have to do that?!
4. Why do trains sometimes run at what seems like half-speed?
5. On what schedule do conductors do their public service announcements? Seems like I'll go a long time without some message about how groping on the subway is illegal or to pay attention and report suspicious activity, and then, suddenly, a barrage of messages. What gives?
All right, glad I got all that off my chest.
3. They're folowwing the signals. I assume inching forward affects the signals for the next train by moving the train you're on into the next track section.
2. Now just a guess, but if one train runs every 5 minutes and one every 3, then every now and then there's be two 3-minute trains in a row.
4. See number 3.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:10 PM on May 5, 2010
2. Now just a guess, but if one train runs every 5 minutes and one every 3, then every now and then there's be two 3-minute trains in a row.
4. See number 3.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:10 PM on May 5, 2010
Other trains. Tons of work being done.
In Chicago, we'd often pass workers on the tracks, and obviously you don't want to go barreling past them.
posted by lhude sing cuccu at 8:17 PM on May 5, 2010
In Chicago, we'd often pass workers on the tracks, and obviously you don't want to go barreling past them.
posted by lhude sing cuccu at 8:17 PM on May 5, 2010
Also, the NYC subway system is amazing. It's gigantic and complicated and it's absolutely a miracle that it works as well as it does. Try visiting another large US city and using the transit there, if it even exists, and you will appreciate the subway.
posted by millipede at 8:19 PM on May 5, 2010 [25 favorites]
posted by millipede at 8:19 PM on May 5, 2010 [25 favorites]
The New York City subway is an amazing thing. You can ride for miles for the same price, 24/7/365. They never, ever close. (Yes, some lines close periodically for maintenance or work, but that's the exception). Delays can be caused by things like people holding the door open for other people, someone getting stuck in a door, etc. Once you live here a while you won't think anything about anything that happens on the subway, and it is SO MUCH BETTER now than it was years ago. It is cleaner, safer, more reliable, and you can actually hear announcements that are made.
The blog Second Avenue Sagas is a helpful resource regarding the NYC Subways.
posted by micawber at 8:25 PM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
The blog Second Avenue Sagas is a helpful resource regarding the NYC Subways.
posted by micawber at 8:25 PM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
As someone from NY who visited San Francisco for a week, I can tell you I missed the mass transit here.
posted by Brian Puccio at 8:30 PM on May 5, 2010
posted by Brian Puccio at 8:30 PM on May 5, 2010
Also consider that the subway runs on what is essentially pre-1920s technology.
Considering the widescale neglect it suffered over the past 50 years, it's a miracle that it works at all. They've been doing a great job of bringing it back into a state of good repair, but there's still a long way to go.
posted by schmod at 8:34 PM on May 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
Considering the widescale neglect it suffered over the past 50 years, it's a miracle that it works at all. They've been doing a great job of bringing it back into a state of good repair, but there's still a long way to go.
posted by schmod at 8:34 PM on May 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
I would kill for a subway half as good in the Bay Area as what NYC gets.
posted by QuarterlyProphet at 8:38 PM on May 5, 2010
posted by QuarterlyProphet at 8:38 PM on May 5, 2010
It's easy to take the subway for granted. When it runs well, it does so more or less invisibly. You're no longer elated that a train pops by every 5-10 minutes when you've seen it happen a few times in a row. Furthermore, when trains run in a generally reliable fashion, you begin to plan your trips around how that.
The rage kicks in when the subway fails to work as expected. A fifteen minute delay can make you precisely fifteen minutes late for work. Late for a meeting. Late for whatever. And subways? Are dank - dark - stuffy - musty - and filled with dozens of commuters every bit as annoyed as you are. Worst of all, the subway is not in your control. It's not a good feeling, knowing that the train is delayed, but you trapped underground and you have somewhere to be and you can do nothing to help yourself. At least in a car, you can turn on the AC, take a detour, or even just enjoy the illusion of autonomy.
posted by Sticherbeast at 8:46 PM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
The rage kicks in when the subway fails to work as expected. A fifteen minute delay can make you precisely fifteen minutes late for work. Late for a meeting. Late for whatever. And subways? Are dank - dark - stuffy - musty - and filled with dozens of commuters every bit as annoyed as you are. Worst of all, the subway is not in your control. It's not a good feeling, knowing that the train is delayed, but you trapped underground and you have somewhere to be and you can do nothing to help yourself. At least in a car, you can turn on the AC, take a detour, or even just enjoy the illusion of autonomy.
posted by Sticherbeast at 8:46 PM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
Best answer: 1. What are the main reasons that they are late?
all sorts of reasons.
Track work (as the system runs 24/7, there's no luxury of working on the system when the trains aren't running.
Signal problems - unfortunately, the signaling system is antiquated - a lot of it dates back 100 years. It's old, cranky, and not always reliable.
Passengers. As the link lists, sick passengers are a major cause of delays - if someone gets sick on the train, they have to wait in the station until the cops/EMT can arrive & get the person off the train. That doesn't even begin to address suicides, which happen with tragic frequency.
2. Why do you sometimes see two identical trains (say, C trains) in a row on a multi-train track (e.g. C/E)?
Scheduling, as listed above.
3. Why do trains sometimes stop in the middle, then start, but crawl forward, and then stop again? Why start in the first place if they have to do that?!
Signaling - as listed above - the command-and-control infrastructure is ancient, and the upgrade is a massive (and massively expensive) job. The stop/start/stop is the driver moving forward to the next light signal.
Combine that with overlapping trains that share tracks (see the A/C/B/D northbound at 59th street, for example). Controllers need to space things out more than is ideal due to the old control systems.
4. Why do trains sometimes run at what seems like half-speed?
See above.
Additionally, there are plenty of areas where speed limits are lower than what might be feasible. Either due to bad track conditions, signal conditions (accident on the Manhattan bridge a few years ago), or other safety concerns.
Around 1990, a coked-up train driver drove a speeding 4 train southbound into the Union Square subway station, causing a derailment & a number of deaths. Damaged the station heavily as well. Since then, the speed limit on southbound 4/5 trains has been reduced.
5. On what schedule do conductors do their public service announcements? Seems like I'll go a long time without some message about how groping on the subway is illegal or to pay attention and report suspicious activity, and then, suddenly, a barrage of messages. What gives?
Seems to depend on the conductor. The true answer would be in the union contract, which is likely online somewhere.
posted by swngnmonk at 8:55 PM on May 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
all sorts of reasons.
Track work (as the system runs 24/7, there's no luxury of working on the system when the trains aren't running.
Signal problems - unfortunately, the signaling system is antiquated - a lot of it dates back 100 years. It's old, cranky, and not always reliable.
Passengers. As the link lists, sick passengers are a major cause of delays - if someone gets sick on the train, they have to wait in the station until the cops/EMT can arrive & get the person off the train. That doesn't even begin to address suicides, which happen with tragic frequency.
2. Why do you sometimes see two identical trains (say, C trains) in a row on a multi-train track (e.g. C/E)?
Scheduling, as listed above.
3. Why do trains sometimes stop in the middle, then start, but crawl forward, and then stop again? Why start in the first place if they have to do that?!
Signaling - as listed above - the command-and-control infrastructure is ancient, and the upgrade is a massive (and massively expensive) job. The stop/start/stop is the driver moving forward to the next light signal.
Combine that with overlapping trains that share tracks (see the A/C/B/D northbound at 59th street, for example). Controllers need to space things out more than is ideal due to the old control systems.
4. Why do trains sometimes run at what seems like half-speed?
See above.
Additionally, there are plenty of areas where speed limits are lower than what might be feasible. Either due to bad track conditions, signal conditions (accident on the Manhattan bridge a few years ago), or other safety concerns.
Around 1990, a coked-up train driver drove a speeding 4 train southbound into the Union Square subway station, causing a derailment & a number of deaths. Damaged the station heavily as well. Since then, the speed limit on southbound 4/5 trains has been reduced.
5. On what schedule do conductors do their public service announcements? Seems like I'll go a long time without some message about how groping on the subway is illegal or to pay attention and report suspicious activity, and then, suddenly, a barrage of messages. What gives?
Seems to depend on the conductor. The true answer would be in the union contract, which is likely online somewhere.
posted by swngnmonk at 8:55 PM on May 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
Found the article - NYTimes - August 28, 1991 - Robert Ray drove a 4 train into Union Square at 40mph, the speed limit in the station was 10 mph. Killed 5, was sentenced to 5-15 years for manslaughter.
posted by swngnmonk at 8:58 PM on May 5, 2010
posted by swngnmonk at 8:58 PM on May 5, 2010
Make a visit to the uptown platform at 103rd St on the ABCD line. The tracks at that station are constructed in a manner that allows you to see (and hear) three lines running at once: downtown and uptown express trains, and uptown local.
I was there recently during the end of the day commuter rush and was astounded at just how tightly packed the trains get in the tunnels. The express lines in particular would go less than a minute between trains. It was easy to see how a delay of a few seconds for one train, which is absolutely inevitable, would cascade down the line.
posted by greenland at 9:49 PM on May 5, 2010
I was there recently during the end of the day commuter rush and was astounded at just how tightly packed the trains get in the tunnels. The express lines in particular would go less than a minute between trains. It was easy to see how a delay of a few seconds for one train, which is absolutely inevitable, would cascade down the line.
posted by greenland at 9:49 PM on May 5, 2010
The one thing not mentioned is that a lot of the trains also have some outdoor stations, so in rain or snow that adds another layer of potential problems.
posted by cestmoi15 at 3:58 AM on May 6, 2010
posted by cestmoi15 at 3:58 AM on May 6, 2010
Another reason for slow speeds is occasionally, for maintenance reasons, certain sections are temporarily designated as having a slower speed than others. For example, a few weeks ago, the uptown 2/3 would slow to something like 5 mph between 42nd and 59th Streets. It would drive me nuts when the local would pass the express.
If one were to ask me why subways were so annoying, my answer would have more to do with the other riders: specifically, people who block the doors, people who shove their way in before other people can exit, people who sit with their legs splayed out, people who hug the pole, people who sling their enormous shoulder bag around and hit you in the arm. Ugh.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 4:13 AM on May 6, 2010
If one were to ask me why subways were so annoying, my answer would have more to do with the other riders: specifically, people who block the doors, people who shove their way in before other people can exit, people who sit with their legs splayed out, people who hug the pole, people who sling their enormous shoulder bag around and hit you in the arm. Ugh.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 4:13 AM on May 6, 2010
3. Why do trains sometimes stop in the middle, then start, but crawl forward, and then stop again? Why start in the first place if they have to do that?!
There are signals every x number of feet (probably depending on curves and things). When the signal is green the train goes, when it's yellow, the train goes slow, and when it's red, the train stops. There will be several of these signals between stations. So, a train doesn't really travel from station to station, it travels from signal to signal. You can ride in the front car of some trains and look out the window if you want to see this in action. (You can't see out the front of some models of cars b/c the conductor cab spreads across the entire width of the train. You can see out the 4/5/6 and 1/2/3 lines. You can see out the C, but not the A.)
As other said, the trains go slow sometimes for maintenance. When there are workers on or near the tracks, you don't want trains barreling through at full speed.
posted by Mavri at 6:04 AM on May 6, 2010
There are signals every x number of feet (probably depending on curves and things). When the signal is green the train goes, when it's yellow, the train goes slow, and when it's red, the train stops. There will be several of these signals between stations. So, a train doesn't really travel from station to station, it travels from signal to signal. You can ride in the front car of some trains and look out the window if you want to see this in action. (You can't see out the front of some models of cars b/c the conductor cab spreads across the entire width of the train. You can see out the 4/5/6 and 1/2/3 lines. You can see out the C, but not the A.)
As other said, the trains go slow sometimes for maintenance. When there are workers on or near the tracks, you don't want trains barreling through at full speed.
posted by Mavri at 6:04 AM on May 6, 2010
Also, I am wrong about being able to see out the front of the 4/5/6. I was thinking about the old trains. I might also be wrong about the 1/2/3.
posted by Mavri at 7:15 AM on May 6, 2010
posted by Mavri at 7:15 AM on May 6, 2010
5. This happens on the new trains with the Mr. Carnival Barker voice, right? This is all speculation, but I think the conductor is required to run them a certain number of times per hour, with the count tracked by the computer. When an hour or so goes by and the conductor is under quota for announcements, the system starts flashing warnings and the conductor just starts launching the announcements in quick succession, usually while traveling in a tunnel.
posted by the jam at 8:13 AM on May 6, 2010
posted by the jam at 8:13 AM on May 6, 2010
It's also worth mentioning that NYC's system is amazing on a world level, even though people here seem to be mostly comparing it to other systems in the US.
*In terms of reliability and frequency of service. I will make no defense of the station architecture, the system's miserable state of cleanliness, the sad excuse that is the G Train, or the fact that PATH was never properly integrated into the system.
posted by schmod at 8:20 AM on May 6, 2010
*In terms of reliability and frequency of service. I will make no defense of the station architecture, the system's miserable state of cleanliness, the sad excuse that is the G Train, or the fact that PATH was never properly integrated into the system.
posted by schmod at 8:20 AM on May 6, 2010
#5 is particularly interesting. I was once on an L train where the conductor was mad that people were blocking the doors, so he just played the announcements over and over the entire way to Manhattan, without breaks. I yelled at him when I got off.
posted by zvs at 11:00 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by zvs at 11:00 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
As other said, the trains go slow sometimes for maintenance. When there are workers on or near the tracks, you don't want trains barreling through at full speed.
Once I was on the L train stuck underground going from Manhattan to Brooklyn. We were under the East River, going very very slowly. It eventually became clear why: there were workers on the tracks.
We were passing by on a track underground right next to the workers. They were close enough to touch if you opened the windows.
As we inched by, all of the workers stopped to wave at us. Surprised, we waved back.
It was awesome.
posted by kathryn at 12:24 PM on May 6, 2010
Once I was on the L train stuck underground going from Manhattan to Brooklyn. We were under the East River, going very very slowly. It eventually became clear why: there were workers on the tracks.
We were passing by on a track underground right next to the workers. They were close enough to touch if you opened the windows.
As we inched by, all of the workers stopped to wave at us. Surprised, we waved back.
It was awesome.
posted by kathryn at 12:24 PM on May 6, 2010
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1. Other trains. Not to be glib, but on a system with as much shared track as the NYC subway system, one train that's delayed a little longer than normal--because, say, passengers take a slightly longer time to board and alight at a station, or someone holds a door open--affects every other train that also uses that track.
2. Because the B and the C might not have identically scheduled headways. Let's say there is more demand for the B than the C--the MTA will schedule more B trains per hour than C trains. There's no rule that says when two services share a track there has to be an equal number of each service.
3 and 4 have various answers. Usually trains on the track ahead.
5. This I don't know, but I'd bet there are guidelines but that there is no strict schedule for the public service announcements.
posted by millipede at 8:10 PM on May 5, 2010 [2 favorites]