Which law school should I attend?
April 12, 2010 1:26 PM Subscribe
LawSchoolFilter: Help me weigh the pros and cons of several law schools where I’ve been accepted. (Sorry, lots of detail here!)
I’ve been lucky enough to be accepted to several good law schools for admission in fall of this year, but—typically—I’m having trouble deciding where to go. Ideally, I had wanted to stay in the east coast school (Penn was my dream), but the best schools I got into are in the south/west coast. I’m in at UT (ranked 15th), UCLA (also 15), USC (18), Boston U (20), and Fordham (30).
I’ve pretty much ruled out USC, as I received no financial aid from them and they’re one of the costliest, being private and in LA. UCLA gave no financial aid, but with their in-state tuition in 2L/3L, the cost is about equal to BU (cheaper base COA) and Fordham (not cheaper, but where I got merit $ that makes it about the same). However, with Cali’s state budget in the hole, I don’t know that I can count on the currently-sizeable in-state tuition break for 2L/3L. UT, however, gave me what amounts to 1 free year—$70k in merit aid (yeah, I was shocked, too).
On the surface, the choice seems clear—UT is the highest-ranked school I got into, and will cost almost 1/3 less than the other schools—but there are some other factors I’m weighing. Data points follow:
• Perhaps most important is that I want to work in the east coast, preferably Philly or NYC, after graduation. UT is fabulous school, but I’m concerned about the ability to get internships (which … lead to jobs) in the NE. I know it’s nationally recognized, but the bulk of its job placement muscle is in the Southwest, correct? And its post-graduation geographic retention rate is pretty high, though that might be self-selection.
• I do not have a particular area of law that I want to practice at this point—I’m open to seeing what catches my interest (and what opportunities arise) while in school.
• I know that I do NOT necessarily want to do BigLaw. However, I’m open to it, and understand that I may need to do so (though there’s no guarantee of getting one of those coveted jobs) to pay off the loan burden—and that if that’s the case, the higher-ranked the school, the better. But I’m not as worried about the debt as I would once have been, after exploring a lot of options re the IBR plans and PI debt-forgiveness. (I hope I don't sound blithe about the debt—I have some fecking insane spreadsheets detailing interest rates, interest capitalization on grad, monthly payments, etc etc—but at this point I've just accepted that I'm not getting a free ride to Columbia, and this debt is the cost of a legal education. I had/have a lot of undergrad debt and am familiar with the burden of high monthly payments on a relatively small salary.)
• I don’t have a car and would very much like not to have to get one. BU and Fordham would clearly not need it (and if I went to Fordham, I could stay in my Queens apt and save lots of moving & travel costs!), and I *think* I can get away with no car in Austin. Not as sure about UCLA.
• If I did stay in the east coast for job opportunities, then—Fordham or BU? Fordham has a better regional rep than BU, but it’s lower-ranked, and BU has more national recognition. Will I be able to find jobs in NYC and Philly from either school with equal ease/difficulty?
• Added to this, my emotionally-dependent mother and serious boyfriend are on the east coast. I’m trying not to be emotional about this decision, but it's almost impossible not to take this into at least some consideration, and I'd be lying if I said my heart wouldn't feel lighter to stay closer to them.
• I would prefer a smaller law school if I had my druthers, but that doesn’t seem so important given everything else.
What do you think, legal-community MeFites? Am I just being foolish? Also, any BU, UT, Fordham, or UCLA alum who want to share any thoughts about their particular schools?
I’ve been lucky enough to be accepted to several good law schools for admission in fall of this year, but—typically—I’m having trouble deciding where to go. Ideally, I had wanted to stay in the east coast school (Penn was my dream), but the best schools I got into are in the south/west coast. I’m in at UT (ranked 15th), UCLA (also 15), USC (18), Boston U (20), and Fordham (30).
I’ve pretty much ruled out USC, as I received no financial aid from them and they’re one of the costliest, being private and in LA. UCLA gave no financial aid, but with their in-state tuition in 2L/3L, the cost is about equal to BU (cheaper base COA) and Fordham (not cheaper, but where I got merit $ that makes it about the same). However, with Cali’s state budget in the hole, I don’t know that I can count on the currently-sizeable in-state tuition break for 2L/3L. UT, however, gave me what amounts to 1 free year—$70k in merit aid (yeah, I was shocked, too).
On the surface, the choice seems clear—UT is the highest-ranked school I got into, and will cost almost 1/3 less than the other schools—but there are some other factors I’m weighing. Data points follow:
• Perhaps most important is that I want to work in the east coast, preferably Philly or NYC, after graduation. UT is fabulous school, but I’m concerned about the ability to get internships (which … lead to jobs) in the NE. I know it’s nationally recognized, but the bulk of its job placement muscle is in the Southwest, correct? And its post-graduation geographic retention rate is pretty high, though that might be self-selection.
• I do not have a particular area of law that I want to practice at this point—I’m open to seeing what catches my interest (and what opportunities arise) while in school.
• I know that I do NOT necessarily want to do BigLaw. However, I’m open to it, and understand that I may need to do so (though there’s no guarantee of getting one of those coveted jobs) to pay off the loan burden—and that if that’s the case, the higher-ranked the school, the better. But I’m not as worried about the debt as I would once have been, after exploring a lot of options re the IBR plans and PI debt-forgiveness. (I hope I don't sound blithe about the debt—I have some fecking insane spreadsheets detailing interest rates, interest capitalization on grad, monthly payments, etc etc—but at this point I've just accepted that I'm not getting a free ride to Columbia, and this debt is the cost of a legal education. I had/have a lot of undergrad debt and am familiar with the burden of high monthly payments on a relatively small salary.)
• I don’t have a car and would very much like not to have to get one. BU and Fordham would clearly not need it (and if I went to Fordham, I could stay in my Queens apt and save lots of moving & travel costs!), and I *think* I can get away with no car in Austin. Not as sure about UCLA.
• If I did stay in the east coast for job opportunities, then—Fordham or BU? Fordham has a better regional rep than BU, but it’s lower-ranked, and BU has more national recognition. Will I be able to find jobs in NYC and Philly from either school with equal ease/difficulty?
• Added to this, my emotionally-dependent mother and serious boyfriend are on the east coast. I’m trying not to be emotional about this decision, but it's almost impossible not to take this into at least some consideration, and I'd be lying if I said my heart wouldn't feel lighter to stay closer to them.
• I would prefer a smaller law school if I had my druthers, but that doesn’t seem so important given everything else.
What do you think, legal-community MeFites? Am I just being foolish? Also, any BU, UT, Fordham, or UCLA alum who want to share any thoughts about their particular schools?
Austin is a great place to live! However, getting around without a car, while doable, certainly will not be fun. I spent one summer without a car while I lived there and it was miserable, as the public transportation system leaves much to be desired. However! All buses are free with your student ID card, so that's a plus.
posted by bahama mama at 1:38 PM on April 12, 2010
posted by bahama mama at 1:38 PM on April 12, 2010
You cannot go to UCLA Law and not have a car, if you expect to have anything like an adult lifestyle. Imagine living in Queens and not be willing to ride the bus or subway.
posted by MattD at 1:40 PM on April 12, 2010
posted by MattD at 1:40 PM on April 12, 2010
I don't have an overall opinion to give, but just a few comments on UT (which I didn't attend):
I *think* I can get away with no car in Austin.
I did for a year (while doing a judicial clerkship). It's tough, but you can do it. I lived very close to the law school, which was a good location to be without a car. You'll need a way to get groceries; if you're looking at apartments, do a Google Maps search for HEB and Wheatsville Co-Op and see how close they are to you. People will tell you it can't be done or it's too hard, but this is very subjective. (People who get around by car tend to see that as the inevitable way to do things and have a hard time understanding how it could be done a different way.)
I knew a UT law student who was looking at jobs in both TX and NYC. She ended up going with TX based on her personal circumstances, but she didn't seem to feel that NYC was at all closed off to her. Of course, getting to interviews in NY will be harder when you're in TX.
posted by Jaltcoh at 1:43 PM on April 12, 2010
I *think* I can get away with no car in Austin.
I did for a year (while doing a judicial clerkship). It's tough, but you can do it. I lived very close to the law school, which was a good location to be without a car. You'll need a way to get groceries; if you're looking at apartments, do a Google Maps search for HEB and Wheatsville Co-Op and see how close they are to you. People will tell you it can't be done or it's too hard, but this is very subjective. (People who get around by car tend to see that as the inevitable way to do things and have a hard time understanding how it could be done a different way.)
I knew a UT law student who was looking at jobs in both TX and NYC. She ended up going with TX based on her personal circumstances, but she didn't seem to feel that NYC was at all closed off to her. Of course, getting to interviews in NY will be harder when you're in TX.
posted by Jaltcoh at 1:43 PM on April 12, 2010
Best answer: Here's what I would suggest. Call each school's career services office, introduce yourself as an accepted prospective student, and ask them how many organizations do on campus interviews at the school (if they won't tell you how many organizations do OCI that should be a bit of a red flag in itself). You may need to adjust the numbers according to the class size of each school, but it should give you a rough idea of how good the school is at placing students at medium to large firms.
An example comparison: I'm sure it's different now because of the recession, but as of a few years ago UT and Vanderbilt typically pulled in about 300 organizations for OCI. By contrast, Washington University in St. Louis pulls a bit over 100. Not surprisingly, Wash U law grads find it harder to get jobs than UT and Vanderbilt grads. So these three schools, which are pretty similar in terms of rankings, size, and location (midwest, mid-size metro areas), have very different job placement rates.
Remember also that it's not really in your interest to pick the best school you can get into. Rather you should pick the best school you can get into that you can do well at, preferably really well. Employers want to see people in the top 33% of their class or better (often much better, like top 10%). It does you little good to be at a great school and then be in the bottom half of the class. Your resume will be summarily tossed out by most employers.
You should also bear in mind that the job market sucks right now, and it will still suck when you try to get a job for 1L summer, which you'll be doing in November or so. Thus it's prudent to pick the school that is best that you can do well at but that also won't saddle you with so much debt that you can't handle having to take whatever work you can get, even if it isn't law related.
So, all that said, were I in your shoes, I would pick UT in a heartbeat if you're confident you can do well there.
posted by jedicus at 1:46 PM on April 12, 2010 [1 favorite]
An example comparison: I'm sure it's different now because of the recession, but as of a few years ago UT and Vanderbilt typically pulled in about 300 organizations for OCI. By contrast, Washington University in St. Louis pulls a bit over 100. Not surprisingly, Wash U law grads find it harder to get jobs than UT and Vanderbilt grads. So these three schools, which are pretty similar in terms of rankings, size, and location (midwest, mid-size metro areas), have very different job placement rates.
Remember also that it's not really in your interest to pick the best school you can get into. Rather you should pick the best school you can get into that you can do well at, preferably really well. Employers want to see people in the top 33% of their class or better (often much better, like top 10%). It does you little good to be at a great school and then be in the bottom half of the class. Your resume will be summarily tossed out by most employers.
You should also bear in mind that the job market sucks right now, and it will still suck when you try to get a job for 1L summer, which you'll be doing in November or so. Thus it's prudent to pick the school that is best that you can do well at but that also won't saddle you with so much debt that you can't handle having to take whatever work you can get, even if it isn't law related.
So, all that said, were I in your shoes, I would pick UT in a heartbeat if you're confident you can do well there.
posted by jedicus at 1:46 PM on April 12, 2010 [1 favorite]
Of course, getting to interviews in NY will be harder when you're in TX.
If your interviews are with larger law firms, they will reimburse the cost of travel as a matter of course.
posted by jedicus at 1:47 PM on April 12, 2010
If your interviews are with larger law firms, they will reimburse the cost of travel as a matter of course.
posted by jedicus at 1:47 PM on April 12, 2010
I went to Fordham, and in terms of the school's personality it was an incredible place to be. Much of the insane, unpleasant competitiveness I hear about was absolutely and totally absent. I found there was incredible opportunity, and remarkably engaged professors. I've found good national recognition, including the accidental discovery that a few nationwide corporate clients are alumns. I do not, and never ever intended to, practice law in a law firm, but rather I work in a law-related insurance/financial field.
posted by bunnycup at 1:53 PM on April 12, 2010
posted by bunnycup at 1:53 PM on April 12, 2010
Best answer: It will be much easier getting a job on the east coast if you're at a school on the east coast. If you want to get a job in NYC in particular, Fordham has a great reputation and many east coast (esp NYC) employers actually recruit there. You'll probably have to do all the east coast job seeking legwork yourself if you do it from UT. You should ask their career office though to get real data about their placements, however, before you throw away a great deal at a great school.
My sense is that there's not much prestiege/reputation difference between BU and Fordham in the NYC market, so I wouldn't let that hang you up. Visit all three (BU, Fordham, UT) and see which is the better fit and feel.
Law school is kinda stressful and you'll be busy. It is not a small benefit to be able to decompress easily by staying near your peeps.
posted by *s at 1:58 PM on April 12, 2010 [1 favorite]
My sense is that there's not much prestiege/reputation difference between BU and Fordham in the NYC market, so I wouldn't let that hang you up. Visit all three (BU, Fordham, UT) and see which is the better fit and feel.
Law school is kinda stressful and you'll be busy. It is not a small benefit to be able to decompress easily by staying near your peeps.
posted by *s at 1:58 PM on April 12, 2010 [1 favorite]
I'm former UCLA Bruin (undergrad) and UT Longhorn (graduate school). I have no useful information re: Law school, but I highly recommend both cities. UCLA has the most beautiful campus I've ever seen and the weather in LA is perfect all year long. There is never a shortage of things to do in LA (when you're not studying) and I think it's one of those towns that everyone should experience living in. You'll either hate it or love it, but once school's done you have an automatic reason to leave if you can't stand it. And MattD's right. You WILL need a car. The city's history is intertwined with the rise of the automobile, and, as such, was designed with driving in mind.
Austin is an equally interesting city, albeit much smaller and more down-to-earth. Winters are colder than in CA (but not as cold as an East Coast winter) but the summers are downright brutal. The UT campus is mostly pavement and buildings, which kept me from really enjoying much outdoor time when I wanted to read or relax. People in Austin were the most friendly I've ever encountered.
posted by puritycontrol at 2:01 PM on April 12, 2010
Austin is an equally interesting city, albeit much smaller and more down-to-earth. Winters are colder than in CA (but not as cold as an East Coast winter) but the summers are downright brutal. The UT campus is mostly pavement and buildings, which kept me from really enjoying much outdoor time when I wanted to read or relax. People in Austin were the most friendly I've ever encountered.
posted by puritycontrol at 2:01 PM on April 12, 2010
If your interviews are with larger law firms, they will reimburse the cost of travel as a matter of course.
She's not necessarily going to be interviewing with larger firms. If you're interviewing with government or public-interest jobs, they won't reimburse anything. Also, money isn't the only cost; air travel takes extra time.
posted by Jaltcoh at 2:05 PM on April 12, 2010
She's not necessarily going to be interviewing with larger firms. If you're interviewing with government or public-interest jobs, they won't reimburse anything. Also, money isn't the only cost; air travel takes extra time.
posted by Jaltcoh at 2:05 PM on April 12, 2010
Best answer: Don't give up on your dream just yet. Go to UT or UCLA, do really well, and then consider transferring. You may end up loving your new school and your new city but Penn Law definitely accepts transfer students. I didn't attend the law school but I have friends who transferred to Penn Law from lower ranked schools. It can definitely still be an option for you and Philadelphia is a great city for graduate school.
posted by sacapuntas at 2:10 PM on April 12, 2010
posted by sacapuntas at 2:10 PM on April 12, 2010
Best answer: I'm in Biglaw in NYC. Did not go to any of the schools you mentioned, though. Fordham is well-recognized and respected in Biglaw NYC, and you will demonstrate a commitment to NYC if you study here, which law firms will pay attention to. Since you're from NYC it may be less of an issue to display that commitment -- I was from out of state so it helped me a lot that I went to school here. I don't know of anyone at my firm who went to UT for law school. In fact, you can search most law firms' lawyers *by* law school, so I'd encourage you to do that. (OK I just did a search and out of the 2000+ lawyers at my firm only one went to UT. Just over 20 went to Fordham, and almost all of them are in the NY office.) From what I can tell Fordham has a very good network and people from there like hiring other people from there -- whereas someone from NYU might be just as likely to hire someone from Columbia as from NYU.
The issue with Fordham is there's a night school and a day school. There's tension between students in one versus the other. I'm trying to remember why, and it might be this: the day schoolersfeel like the night school is easier and yet they compete with the night schoolers for jobs, so that a good day student will be lower on the bell curve than a good night student -- thus, you have to work extra hard in day school to beat out the night school kids. So you might find taking night courses gives you an advantage on the curve. But it might also be this (I'm working on a foggy memory of a conversation that happened a year ago, so forgive me): the night school kids had issues with day school kids taking their courses, because the day schoolers didn't have to work during the day so they can study more and mess up the curve for the night schoolers, who typically are working full time while in school. I'd definitely ask students at the school about this night school / day school issue, if only so you will know which courses to angle for in order to get the grades you'd need to be competitive.
I think The World Famous is in Cali. Biglaw in NYC is its own world in so many ways, and is very NYC-oriented.
If I were you, after looking up some good law firms I'd call lawyers there from UT and Fordham and ask about their experiences. You can do the same with the SDNY's offices or the IRS's offices or the SEC offices, except you'd have to call their main line I'd think and explain that you're a prospective law student to UT and Forham and would love the chance to talk with someone from one of those schools to get their perspective on NYC hiring out of those two schools. If you're friendly and polite you can get a lot of information out of people, plus, you can use it as a first step of networking. It's unusual for a prospective law student to call out of the blue, and someone might remember you as that fresh voice on the phone four years ago when you get out of law school (time flies for people once they're working as lawyers, and people love doing favors for people they already know). You might find that the pro-Fordham crowd is strong in NYC and peters out for Philly, and for Philly UT might actually be better (though I'd think Philly would be highly influenced by the NYC mentality).
posted by lorrer at 2:11 PM on April 12, 2010
The issue with Fordham is there's a night school and a day school. There's tension between students in one versus the other. I'm trying to remember why, and it might be this: the day schoolersfeel like the night school is easier and yet they compete with the night schoolers for jobs, so that a good day student will be lower on the bell curve than a good night student -- thus, you have to work extra hard in day school to beat out the night school kids. So you might find taking night courses gives you an advantage on the curve. But it might also be this (I'm working on a foggy memory of a conversation that happened a year ago, so forgive me): the night school kids had issues with day school kids taking their courses, because the day schoolers didn't have to work during the day so they can study more and mess up the curve for the night schoolers, who typically are working full time while in school. I'd definitely ask students at the school about this night school / day school issue, if only so you will know which courses to angle for in order to get the grades you'd need to be competitive.
I think The World Famous is in Cali. Biglaw in NYC is its own world in so many ways, and is very NYC-oriented.
If I were you, after looking up some good law firms I'd call lawyers there from UT and Fordham and ask about their experiences. You can do the same with the SDNY's offices or the IRS's offices or the SEC offices, except you'd have to call their main line I'd think and explain that you're a prospective law student to UT and Forham and would love the chance to talk with someone from one of those schools to get their perspective on NYC hiring out of those two schools. If you're friendly and polite you can get a lot of information out of people, plus, you can use it as a first step of networking. It's unusual for a prospective law student to call out of the blue, and someone might remember you as that fresh voice on the phone four years ago when you get out of law school (time flies for people once they're working as lawyers, and people love doing favors for people they already know). You might find that the pro-Fordham crowd is strong in NYC and peters out for Philly, and for Philly UT might actually be better (though I'd think Philly would be highly influenced by the NYC mentality).
posted by lorrer at 2:11 PM on April 12, 2010
I am for a car-free lifestyle, and don't currently have one in Seattle, but when I lived in Austin and my car was in the shop, life was not very easy. I don't recommend living in Austin without a car. If you lived somewhere near the law school, you could go without having one during the week, but you would really wish you had one on the weekend for shopping or visiting friends. Living in Austin will be so much cheaper than New York City that the car thing will not be too bad, I think.
That said, there is a car-sharing scheme now operating in Austin, that might make living without your own car tolerable.
posted by grouse at 2:25 PM on April 12, 2010
That said, there is a car-sharing scheme now operating in Austin, that might make living without your own car tolerable.
posted by grouse at 2:25 PM on April 12, 2010
You should go to UT, or you should not go to law school. Those are the only options of the above mentioned schools. UT is the only truly national school listed there, and if you do even decently there you will be able to transfer to an east coast equivalent like UVA or Penn. UT is the only school listed where you will have a shot at OCI without being in the Top 10-15%. Don’t kid yourself- OCI and biglaw is really your only hope of ever making law school pay off financially. You need to be fully aware of the job realities and the utter glut of fungible attorneys just like yourself out there in the lawschooldebtmachine pipeline with you. UT is your best chance not to be on the wrong end of this chart.
Unless one of the other schools offered you a full ride and a living stipend, you should sign your acceptance to UT today. Otherwise don’t go at all.
posted by T.D. Strange at 2:34 PM on April 12, 2010 [1 favorite]
Unless one of the other schools offered you a full ride and a living stipend, you should sign your acceptance to UT today. Otherwise don’t go at all.
posted by T.D. Strange at 2:34 PM on April 12, 2010 [1 favorite]
If you stay on the east coast, will you be able to live with family and avoid paying rent? That should enter into your analysis when you're comparing the cost of each school.
posted by prefpara at 2:43 PM on April 12, 2010
posted by prefpara at 2:43 PM on April 12, 2010
You might find that the pro-Fordham crowd is strong in NYC and peters out for Philly, and for Philly UT might actually be better (though I'd think Philly would be highly influenced by the NYC mentality).
I'm MediumLaw in Philadelphia and can confirm that for Philadelphia, BU really doesn't register. Fordham is pretty good, though you'll be asked to Prove That You Want to Come to Philadelphia As Your First Choice. UT and UCLA have more of a "national" reputation than Fordham, and as a result, you may have to go through fewer hoops to convince people that you're not just using Philadelphia as a back-up plan in case you can't get an offer in NYC.
posted by joyceanmachine at 2:43 PM on April 12, 2010
I'm MediumLaw in Philadelphia and can confirm that for Philadelphia, BU really doesn't register. Fordham is pretty good, though you'll be asked to Prove That You Want to Come to Philadelphia As Your First Choice. UT and UCLA have more of a "national" reputation than Fordham, and as a result, you may have to go through fewer hoops to convince people that you're not just using Philadelphia as a back-up plan in case you can't get an offer in NYC.
posted by joyceanmachine at 2:43 PM on April 12, 2010
Not a lawyer but I live in NYC and have lots of friends who are lawyers in NYC. Many of my friends who are lawyers in NYC went to Fordham Law. So, long story short, it's not unheard of for graduates of Fordham Law to get law jobs in NYC.
posted by dfriedman at 2:57 PM on April 12, 2010
posted by dfriedman at 2:57 PM on April 12, 2010
Best answer: I'm an attorney who is now working as a legal recruiter. I don't have a lot of time to get into explaining why, but please trust me when I say this:
You need to attend the highest ranked school. Period.
posted by ohyouknow at 3:01 PM on April 12, 2010 [2 favorites]
You need to attend the highest ranked school. Period.
posted by ohyouknow at 3:01 PM on April 12, 2010 [2 favorites]
I went to a different UC law school (not UCLA) and then went back to NYC after graduation, because of the relationship I was in at the time. I understand your boyfriend is on the east coast and that is a big draw, but I can tell you that law school is hard on relationships and that will be true whether you are at Fordham or at UT. Skype is free and you can set up regular times to talk- actually having an SO around and wanting attention can be its own source of stress, as if law school didn't provide enough.
One aspect of this that no one has mentioned yet is that some New York Big Firms are a little gun-shy about hiring grads from California law schools because the pattern tends to be that they put in 2 or 3 years in New York and then go back to California. It was a direct question that I hit in a couple of interviews. I did get a job at a middle-big firm, not a mega firm. And I will sheepishly admit that two years later I quit my firm job and moved back to California, as typecast.
I have, however, never heard of similar worries about Texas grads, and if I were in your shoes, the combination of ranking and finances would make UT my choice. Do not underestimate the significance of student loan debt!
The suggestion to talk to UT and Fordham grads is an excellent one. Never too early to start networking.
posted by ambrosia at 3:53 PM on April 12, 2010
One aspect of this that no one has mentioned yet is that some New York Big Firms are a little gun-shy about hiring grads from California law schools because the pattern tends to be that they put in 2 or 3 years in New York and then go back to California. It was a direct question that I hit in a couple of interviews. I did get a job at a middle-big firm, not a mega firm. And I will sheepishly admit that two years later I quit my firm job and moved back to California, as typecast.
I have, however, never heard of similar worries about Texas grads, and if I were in your shoes, the combination of ranking and finances would make UT my choice. Do not underestimate the significance of student loan debt!
The suggestion to talk to UT and Fordham grads is an excellent one. Never too early to start networking.
posted by ambrosia at 3:53 PM on April 12, 2010
You should go to UT, or you should not go to law school.
This.
The legal job market is horrifically bad right now. If you go to Fordham, you will be taking on a potentially crippling debt load with an unacceptably poor chance of getting a job that will let you pay it back.
posted by ewiar at 4:32 PM on April 12, 2010
This.
The legal job market is horrifically bad right now. If you go to Fordham, you will be taking on a potentially crippling debt load with an unacceptably poor chance of getting a job that will let you pay it back.
posted by ewiar at 4:32 PM on April 12, 2010
Another vote for go to UT, or not at all. It is a fantastic school.
posted by jayder at 8:26 PM on April 12, 2010
posted by jayder at 8:26 PM on April 12, 2010
Response by poster: As always, MeFites, excellent thoughts and answers here. I really appreciate the time you all took to lend me some guidance & personal anecdotes about these schools/locations, and I'm sorry I don't have time to reply to everyone individually. The suggestions about contacting alum and CSOs are very good, and so is the perspective on east coast hiring.
Thanks also to those of you who MeMailed me; if I haven't gotten back to you yet, I will soon. I may also MM some of the other people who have personal experience at these schools (*ahem* bunnycup. Just a heads-up) ... hope that's OK.
I think it definitely sounds like I'm down to a UT/Fordham split, though. Which is fab, since I've already put the first seating deposits down on those two!
I have a couple of follow-up questions for the room in general, though.
posted by alleycat01 at 8:49 PM on April 12, 2010
Thanks also to those of you who MeMailed me; if I haven't gotten back to you yet, I will soon. I may also MM some of the other people who have personal experience at these schools (*ahem* bunnycup. Just a heads-up) ... hope that's OK.
I think it definitely sounds like I'm down to a UT/Fordham split, though. Which is fab, since I've already put the first seating deposits down on those two!
I have a couple of follow-up questions for the room in general, though.
- - I understand that the job market is horrific right now, alas. But I've been operating on the general assumption that it will have recovered somewhat by the time I graduate (2013)/get my 2L summer internship (2012) -- and even if not, I'd still possibly be competitive because ... well, I'll be cheaper than the poor people who graduated in '09 and '10, even if we're looking at the same jobs. Am I being incredibly naive about this?
- Secondly, I guess it's been hard for me to get a true sense of the feasibility of getting a decent job if I do *not* go to "my top-ranked school" (UT). On one hand, whenever law school comes up, there are always a bunch of comments to the effect of "go to the absolute best school possible or dire consequences will befall you" -- a valid viewpoint, of course. But at the same time, Fordham and BU are certainly someone's "best school possible,"* and it's not like all the grads there are jobless, as is evidenced by the slew of comments to this effect upthread. How is this disparity explained? Did all the Fordham/BU grads we're discussing just have full rides and no debt, or something? Were they all top 10%?
*Please note that I consider both of these to be very good schools and am only using them as examples for this in the sense that, strictly speaking, they're lower ranked than UT. As we all know, school rankings are incomplete and limited indicators of quality.
posted by alleycat01 at 8:49 PM on April 12, 2010
Response by poster: Er, sorry, the line break didn't come out the way it was supposed to on that last one, and it's kind of hard to read.
posted by alleycat01 at 8:51 PM on April 12, 2010
posted by alleycat01 at 8:51 PM on April 12, 2010
Hi Alleycat,
I'll try to answer some of your questions. I also memailed you earlier, but didn't see what you had asked.
I'm a 1L at BU Law School. (Ill be happy to talk about my debt and my class rank on memail). I made a similar choice last year, and I'm pretty happy I went with the lower ranked school that was a great fit, rather than the higher ranked school that was not. There are, and will always be, a strong vocal chorus shouting: "Go to the best law school, and get the best big law job you can, OR ELSE".
I find a lot of these claims to be without merit (sorry guys, no offense). Perhaps I'm just a naive 1L, and you can feel free to dismiss me on that basis if you would like. But I am at a point where I've had to find 1L summer work, prepare for 2L OCI interviews, and watch my second and third year friends deal with the Northeast Biglaw job market. So I feel relatively confident in my own opinion about this issue.
The reality is complex. Truthfully no-one knows what will happen with the Biglaw market. Signs are that the firing has stopped, but that hiring has not picked up yet. Big firms still hire summer associates, but at a reduced rate. Some firms are experimenting with different associate models (e.g. more substantive work, less pay). Many think that hiring will pick up, while others think that this recession means the end for the Biglaw model. There is some evidence that client's increasing demand for lower costs will force firms to shift their model. (By paying associates less, by outsourcing discovery, by relying on more contract attorneys- all viable cost cutting strategies). But the jury is out.
The "rule of thumb" at BU Law used to be that about half of the students who wanted big law jobs got them. These were largely taken from the top half of the class. The last couple years, it seems like Big law is still a viable option if you are in the top 10% of the class, and is maybe a viable option if you're in the top 25%. This seems somewhat approximate to my Fordham law friend's understanding of his job market. (to give you another data point, the current 'rule of thumb' at Harvard seems to be that the top 50 percent can get big law jobs). Our career office is cautious, at this point, about biglaw jobs. However, our graduates are still very much employed. The kids who haven't been able to land jobs at the big firms have found employment in smaller firms. It takes some more legwork- they don't come to you- but its very doable, and the pay is fine.
You can't predict the future of the BigLaw market, and you shouldn't try. It's always dependent on how well you do anyway, which you just don't know at this point. If you're very, very intent on making large amounts of money, or working on large corporate deals, then you should choose the absolute best school. It will give you a slight advantage: but you have to weigh this advantage against the other benefits you'll miss out on by going to a lower ranked school (local markets; close to your family/significant other). And these are important benefits to consider as well.
Obviously, do the best you can in law school. But just try to have fun. Sometimes, the internet discussion surrounding law school makes me feel like I should dress up as a pirate and declare war on my classmates so that I can get the treasure (the big law job) for myself. I don't think this is the right attitude to take. The big law job just isn't that pot of gold. A lot of people like the money, but cannot stand the hours, and end up leaving. Really, you should spend your time at school exploring different fields of the law, find an area that you're passionate about, and pursue it. You'll make a good salary: lawyers are not vastly underpaid. And regardless of which school you choose, you'll still be in a top tier law school. UT, BU and Fordham are all highly respected.
The reality is that we live in a world permeated with law. We're governed by a vast administrative state, where there is continuous and fascinating interaction with the law. Have fun with this!!! There are just so many fields, so many things to do, areas of law to explore, that you might overlook if you decide that big law is your sole focus. There will always be artists with copyright questions, always people buying and selling real estate; people getting married, getting divorced, writing wills, polluting, farming, buying and selling products, committing crimes. The world is your oyster with law school, since the law touches upon the vast entirety of human activity. Find a spot that you like and excel!
That is all. I would be happy to chat more if you like.
posted by HabeasCorpus at 10:04 PM on April 12, 2010
I'll try to answer some of your questions. I also memailed you earlier, but didn't see what you had asked.
I'm a 1L at BU Law School. (Ill be happy to talk about my debt and my class rank on memail). I made a similar choice last year, and I'm pretty happy I went with the lower ranked school that was a great fit, rather than the higher ranked school that was not. There are, and will always be, a strong vocal chorus shouting: "Go to the best law school, and get the best big law job you can, OR ELSE".
I find a lot of these claims to be without merit (sorry guys, no offense). Perhaps I'm just a naive 1L, and you can feel free to dismiss me on that basis if you would like. But I am at a point where I've had to find 1L summer work, prepare for 2L OCI interviews, and watch my second and third year friends deal with the Northeast Biglaw job market. So I feel relatively confident in my own opinion about this issue.
The reality is complex. Truthfully no-one knows what will happen with the Biglaw market. Signs are that the firing has stopped, but that hiring has not picked up yet. Big firms still hire summer associates, but at a reduced rate. Some firms are experimenting with different associate models (e.g. more substantive work, less pay). Many think that hiring will pick up, while others think that this recession means the end for the Biglaw model. There is some evidence that client's increasing demand for lower costs will force firms to shift their model. (By paying associates less, by outsourcing discovery, by relying on more contract attorneys- all viable cost cutting strategies). But the jury is out.
The "rule of thumb" at BU Law used to be that about half of the students who wanted big law jobs got them. These were largely taken from the top half of the class. The last couple years, it seems like Big law is still a viable option if you are in the top 10% of the class, and is maybe a viable option if you're in the top 25%. This seems somewhat approximate to my Fordham law friend's understanding of his job market. (to give you another data point, the current 'rule of thumb' at Harvard seems to be that the top 50 percent can get big law jobs). Our career office is cautious, at this point, about biglaw jobs. However, our graduates are still very much employed. The kids who haven't been able to land jobs at the big firms have found employment in smaller firms. It takes some more legwork- they don't come to you- but its very doable, and the pay is fine.
You can't predict the future of the BigLaw market, and you shouldn't try. It's always dependent on how well you do anyway, which you just don't know at this point. If you're very, very intent on making large amounts of money, or working on large corporate deals, then you should choose the absolute best school. It will give you a slight advantage: but you have to weigh this advantage against the other benefits you'll miss out on by going to a lower ranked school (local markets; close to your family/significant other). And these are important benefits to consider as well.
Obviously, do the best you can in law school. But just try to have fun. Sometimes, the internet discussion surrounding law school makes me feel like I should dress up as a pirate and declare war on my classmates so that I can get the treasure (the big law job) for myself. I don't think this is the right attitude to take. The big law job just isn't that pot of gold. A lot of people like the money, but cannot stand the hours, and end up leaving. Really, you should spend your time at school exploring different fields of the law, find an area that you're passionate about, and pursue it. You'll make a good salary: lawyers are not vastly underpaid. And regardless of which school you choose, you'll still be in a top tier law school. UT, BU and Fordham are all highly respected.
The reality is that we live in a world permeated with law. We're governed by a vast administrative state, where there is continuous and fascinating interaction with the law. Have fun with this!!! There are just so many fields, so many things to do, areas of law to explore, that you might overlook if you decide that big law is your sole focus. There will always be artists with copyright questions, always people buying and selling real estate; people getting married, getting divorced, writing wills, polluting, farming, buying and selling products, committing crimes. The world is your oyster with law school, since the law touches upon the vast entirety of human activity. Find a spot that you like and excel!
That is all. I would be happy to chat more if you like.
posted by HabeasCorpus at 10:04 PM on April 12, 2010
That assumption may or may not be true, to the extent that you can place in the Top 10-20% of your 1L class, which is literally the only thing that will matter. And everyone thinks they'll be in the Top 20%, right?
There are some ~140,000 law student currently enrolled in law school (plus legions of discouraged attorneys ready and able to reenter the market), and somewhere around 35,000 jobs annually which require bar passage. Only a small % of those jobs are the BIGLAW NY TO 190k type jobs which will allow you to pay back your ~175k$ in student loans while still doing normal life-track things like owning a car or a house, having kids or getting married outside of desperate poverty. The rest of those jobs are public interest (even more competitive than biglaw really, Ivy leaguers and trust fund kids will do these for free) or insurance defense/DUI/criminal defense, or even worse: contract work. These are the jobs that Fordham/NYLS/Rutgers/BU people end up doing. Unless your family happens to own a law firm, which is true for a significant percentage of law students at those middle to TTT schools.
Corporate clients have/are starting to catch on to the fact that a 25-28yr old first year attorney knows fuckall about anything, much less the nuances and loopholes of the Corporate Paper Churning Act of 2004. A lot of that work that sustained those salaries is dead dead dead. Will it come back by 2013? Maybe, are you willing to bet 150k on it? And btw, the ABA just ruled that it's perfectly ethical to outsource substantive legal work to non-JD monkeys in India working for 1$ an hour. How do you think that will impact the market and wages?
Not saying that you shouldn't go, because UT is a great school and you'll probably have a job at the end. But you should go to UT. And be prepared for it not to be the job you're imagining right now, or even a job that you even remotely like doing. And you should never believe a damn word your career office or anyone whos salary is paid directly from stafford loans says about employment statistics.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:23 PM on April 12, 2010 [1 favorite]
There are some ~140,000 law student currently enrolled in law school (plus legions of discouraged attorneys ready and able to reenter the market), and somewhere around 35,000 jobs annually which require bar passage. Only a small % of those jobs are the BIGLAW NY TO 190k type jobs which will allow you to pay back your ~175k$ in student loans while still doing normal life-track things like owning a car or a house, having kids or getting married outside of desperate poverty. The rest of those jobs are public interest (even more competitive than biglaw really, Ivy leaguers and trust fund kids will do these for free) or insurance defense/DUI/criminal defense, or even worse: contract work. These are the jobs that Fordham/NYLS/Rutgers/BU people end up doing. Unless your family happens to own a law firm, which is true for a significant percentage of law students at those middle to TTT schools.
Corporate clients have/are starting to catch on to the fact that a 25-28yr old first year attorney knows fuckall about anything, much less the nuances and loopholes of the Corporate Paper Churning Act of 2004. A lot of that work that sustained those salaries is dead dead dead. Will it come back by 2013? Maybe, are you willing to bet 150k on it? And btw, the ABA just ruled that it's perfectly ethical to outsource substantive legal work to non-JD monkeys in India working for 1$ an hour. How do you think that will impact the market and wages?
Not saying that you shouldn't go, because UT is a great school and you'll probably have a job at the end. But you should go to UT. And be prepared for it not to be the job you're imagining right now, or even a job that you even remotely like doing. And you should never believe a damn word your career office or anyone whos salary is paid directly from stafford loans says about employment statistics.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:23 PM on April 12, 2010 [1 favorite]
OP, to be fair, I think T.D. is over-exaggerating. I've not heard of a single BU Grad (or Fordham grad) doing contract work. Not to say there aren't any, but there are very few. I think its unfair to say that these are the jobs Fordham/BU grads are doing.
Secondly, criminal defense shouldn't be disparaged, because it might be what you want to do. Criminal law can be an interesting and rewarding line of work. T.D. also leaves out lots of other areas where biglaw isn't necessary, or even desirable: namely, every single field of law not associated with large corporate entities. Family law, for instance, or real estate, or trusts, or even corporate law that doesn't involve giant conglomerates. I also think "desperate poverty" is a gross mischaracterization of most lawyer's lifestyles.
You definitely should consider all the schools you got into. But you shouldn't make your choice based on some irrational fear of crushing poverty.
posted by HabeasCorpus at 7:13 AM on April 13, 2010
Secondly, criminal defense shouldn't be disparaged, because it might be what you want to do. Criminal law can be an interesting and rewarding line of work. T.D. also leaves out lots of other areas where biglaw isn't necessary, or even desirable: namely, every single field of law not associated with large corporate entities. Family law, for instance, or real estate, or trusts, or even corporate law that doesn't involve giant conglomerates. I also think "desperate poverty" is a gross mischaracterization of most lawyer's lifestyles.
You definitely should consider all the schools you got into. But you shouldn't make your choice based on some irrational fear of crushing poverty.
posted by HabeasCorpus at 7:13 AM on April 13, 2010
Frankly, in this situation, your choice isn't really JUST about the highest ranked school you get into. It's also about the school that will cost you the least. I'm going to make this very, very clear:
DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE LIMITATIONS THAT WILL BE FORCED ON YOU BY EDUCATIONAL DEBT.
Seriously. If this were an issue of UT v. Fordham, and the cost was the same, I'd agree with HabeasCorpus that you should consider fit pretty seriously. But the cost isn't the same. UT is going to be significantly cheaper -- and it's significantly higher ranked. Unless you've visited Austin and found the environment to be completely distasteful and can't imagine spending three years there, you should go to UT. Because if, after those three years, you know you don't want to do BigLaw, you'll be able to NOT do BigLaw if you've gone to UT. You may not have that choice at Fordham -- you'll have more debt, and your degree won't travel as well outside of New York.
In most situations, I tend to agree with HabeasCorpus -- don't pick the highest ranked school just because it's the highest ranked school, because fit does matter. And usually the choice to go to a lower ranked school comes with some financial benefits -- i.e., you can often choose "fit" over "rank" and still come out ahead because you have less debt.
You are in the opposite situation -- you can go to the highest ranked school you got into and spend LESS money than by going to any other school. I really cannot overstate how important this is. Not having that extra debt is going to give you enormous freedoms.*
*I say this as someone who chose the highest ranked school she got into, which was also the school with the best fit for me personally, and took on depressing amounts of debt to do so. I do not regret where I went to school but I do regret that my career choices are pretty circumscribed by my monthly loan payments. There are a lot of things I'd like to consider doing, career-wise, that I simply cannot consider because of my debt.
posted by devinemissk at 7:50 AM on April 13, 2010 [4 favorites]
DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE LIMITATIONS THAT WILL BE FORCED ON YOU BY EDUCATIONAL DEBT.
Seriously. If this were an issue of UT v. Fordham, and the cost was the same, I'd agree with HabeasCorpus that you should consider fit pretty seriously. But the cost isn't the same. UT is going to be significantly cheaper -- and it's significantly higher ranked. Unless you've visited Austin and found the environment to be completely distasteful and can't imagine spending three years there, you should go to UT. Because if, after those three years, you know you don't want to do BigLaw, you'll be able to NOT do BigLaw if you've gone to UT. You may not have that choice at Fordham -- you'll have more debt, and your degree won't travel as well outside of New York.
In most situations, I tend to agree with HabeasCorpus -- don't pick the highest ranked school just because it's the highest ranked school, because fit does matter. And usually the choice to go to a lower ranked school comes with some financial benefits -- i.e., you can often choose "fit" over "rank" and still come out ahead because you have less debt.
You are in the opposite situation -- you can go to the highest ranked school you got into and spend LESS money than by going to any other school. I really cannot overstate how important this is. Not having that extra debt is going to give you enormous freedoms.*
*I say this as someone who chose the highest ranked school she got into, which was also the school with the best fit for me personally, and took on depressing amounts of debt to do so. I do not regret where I went to school but I do regret that my career choices are pretty circumscribed by my monthly loan payments. There are a lot of things I'd like to consider doing, career-wise, that I simply cannot consider because of my debt.
posted by devinemissk at 7:50 AM on April 13, 2010 [4 favorites]
Oh, and feel free to MefiMail me.
posted by devinemissk at 7:56 AM on April 13, 2010
posted by devinemissk at 7:56 AM on April 13, 2010
Here's the reason: if you go to a lower ranked school you MUST perform at the top of the pack in order to make up for the spread between top school and meh school. Since you haven't attended law school yet but are used to being smart and getting good grades, it may be hard to comprehend that most exceptionally smart people find themselves getting middling grades in law school for the first time in their lives. (I remember furiously studying for finals at my very good law school and a 2L walked by us laughing and said, 'Really no matter what you do you will all get B's.' And he was right.)
To help yourself avoid the frustration of that plus crushing student debt and potentially no job after graduation, you should attend the highest ranked school in order to improve your overall "rank" regardless of how you do in law school. Attending a higher ranked school buys you some insurance.
I've placed partners with 15+ years of experience and law firms or corporate legal departments STILL ask to see transcripts and want to know about class rank. Yes, over 15 years later. You won't get an interview without handing over your transcript. They don't really care too much about class rank though if you went to Harvard or Yale...
It's frustrating and stupid but it's the way the (legal) world works. So if I sound harsh it's just because I've witnessed firsthand over and over and over again how screwed people get assuming everything will be fine at a lesser-tiered school. Yes BU's the best school for someone else, but you need to take every advantage you can get right now. Go take it and best of luck to you!
posted by ohyouknow at 8:00 AM on April 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
To help yourself avoid the frustration of that plus crushing student debt and potentially no job after graduation, you should attend the highest ranked school in order to improve your overall "rank" regardless of how you do in law school. Attending a higher ranked school buys you some insurance.
I've placed partners with 15+ years of experience and law firms or corporate legal departments STILL ask to see transcripts and want to know about class rank. Yes, over 15 years later. You won't get an interview without handing over your transcript. They don't really care too much about class rank though if you went to Harvard or Yale...
It's frustrating and stupid but it's the way the (legal) world works. So if I sound harsh it's just because I've witnessed firsthand over and over and over again how screwed people get assuming everything will be fine at a lesser-tiered school. Yes BU's the best school for someone else, but you need to take every advantage you can get right now. Go take it and best of luck to you!
posted by ohyouknow at 8:00 AM on April 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
alleycat01, you are welcome to Memail me, and I'll tell you anything and everything I can about Fordham.
posted by bunnycup at 8:40 AM on April 13, 2010
posted by bunnycup at 8:40 AM on April 13, 2010
I disagree with Habeus' assumption that a fear of poverty is irrational, as long as you're the sort of person that sees personal debt in a light different from, say, national debt. It's a real thing, and it should affect your choices. If you don't get any money from Fordham, I think UT is the obvious choice. If you do get aid from Fordham, the choice gets tougher. I went to a lower-ranked school (T25) because it was about $80k cheaper than the best school I was admitted to (Michigan). I'm happy with my decision, since my career choices aren't hampered by debt and I've always wanted to work in the public sector. YMMV.
posted by craven_morhead at 8:50 AM on April 13, 2010
posted by craven_morhead at 8:50 AM on April 13, 2010
I'm in agreement with Craven morehead and devinemesk more that I expressed in my earlier comment. Debt is a HUGE factor to consider, and you need to give very serious weight to your debt load when making your decision. I made my decision to attend a lower ranked school (BU) in large part because I would come out with less debt. Definitely, definitely, definitely consider your financial future. Since UT is giving you a big chunk of change, you should weigh that heavily.
I am in disagreement with those posters who consider the burden of law school debt to be so crushing, that the only viable option post-law school is to take a career in big, corporate-oriented firms, where you make lots of money at the expense of lifestyle, job-interest, etc. You will not be "terribly poor" if you do not take, or get, a biglaw job. Biglaw is not the only career path, and there are many other viable options. Yes, they all involve less money, but give you other benefits like autonomy, real experience, etc. You've done the math on income based repayment and debt forgiveness, and I'm sure that you can make the decision for yourself.
posted by HabeasCorpus at 2:25 PM on April 13, 2010
I am in disagreement with those posters who consider the burden of law school debt to be so crushing, that the only viable option post-law school is to take a career in big, corporate-oriented firms, where you make lots of money at the expense of lifestyle, job-interest, etc. You will not be "terribly poor" if you do not take, or get, a biglaw job. Biglaw is not the only career path, and there are many other viable options. Yes, they all involve less money, but give you other benefits like autonomy, real experience, etc. You've done the math on income based repayment and debt forgiveness, and I'm sure that you can make the decision for yourself.
posted by HabeasCorpus at 2:25 PM on April 13, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
I wouldn't worry about going to a small v. large law school.
I'm not sure what UT's employment numbers are like, but you should be able to get information from them as to where they place their graduates. This should answer some of your east-coast placement questions. Also take a look at what firms participate in their OCI and where they're based.
Though Fordham is ranked lower than BU, I think it's name carries more cache than its ranking would suggest.
Given the limited information, if I were in your shoes, I'd go to UT or Fordham.
posted by craven_morhead at 1:36 PM on April 12, 2010