Am I in an sound producer's dream?

April 8, 2010 6:48 PM

(audiophilefilter) Ok, mefi gear heads--- I am a recording engineer that recently acquired a new client. He wants to set up a small yet powerful home basement studio. He currently has an old Tascam cassette 4-track recorder. He also has DEEP pockets. Suggestions?

Obviously, we're getting a fire wire box, computer and reference monitors. What I need from you are suggestions on exactly what to get, as far as value, I'm trying to save the guy some money. He will be running Adobe Audition as his main software program (actually Cool Edit Pro 2.1, which is the same thing). He's ready to lay out the cash for a new computer, an 8 or 16 input channel interface, reference monitors, the works...... I had to talk him out of buying 8k worth of junk at the Guitar Center yesterday (damned eternal hell to salesmen that work on commission (I know, I know, they have bills to pay, too, but geeze...). The idea is to be able to EVERYTHING in-house, aside from the mastering.

Obvious, I have the mics worked out. But I would LOVE to hear your suggestions as far as a new computer, a fire-wire box, monitors, etc etc...... He also may be interested in a Line 6 type guitar interface/USB pod.....

Musically, think Sammy Hagar pre-Van Halen typ music.

Also, an easy to use drum program will be needed (more or less for use on click tracks), we have a live drummer, but software suggestions are welcome.

Bonus points for non-Apple suggestions, although that isn't ruled out.

NO PRO TOOLS.

And yes, we'll be shopping through Musician's Friend.

I need recommendations on 1) A computer 2) a fire wire box/interface to use with the new computer 3) reference monitors 4) anything else that you think may be needed/useful. 5)Headphones 6) Pre-amps for the condenser mics, if the firewire box will require them (one or two for my Baby Blue Bottles for vox/acoustic guitar work)....

Money isn't a question, but what works/sounds GOOD? (Let's say we have 10K budget, total). And is idiot-proof?

A DWS isn't out of the question for capture, but I figure since he is buying a new computer that is to be dedicated to sound, we may as well go with a firewire interface set-up....

NOTE- client is a musician, not a computer guy. I had to draw him a picture to explain to him what a Terrabyte was....... I finally got him to understand "sound quality" by recording a tune on his Tascam and then re-recording the same song on my Fostex VF-160 and dumping the tracks in CEP and cleaning them up. ("Golly that sounds like it was on the radio!")

New software isn't out of the question either, it's just that since I'm the one that will be producing/engineering him, I like my CEP 2.1- I also have Vegas and Acid......

Bonus points for guitar software as well.

THANKS!

posted by peewinkle to media & arts (24 answers total)

Computer: The most insane Mac you can get, with the biggest LCD TV you can afford that will support the Mac's graphics.

Monitors: Meyer Sound HD-1

Preamps: I'm going to tell you the ones I use, and they're going to break your budget, and I don't have them in my own home studio because I can't even begin to afford them myself, so I use the ones in my friend's studio, so, you know, grain of salt: A couple of Avalon AD2022's and a Manley Voxbox.

Headphones: AKG K-240

As far as plug-ins for guitar and drums and whatnot, I have BFD2 as a drum plug-in, and it's very good, but more than I will ever need. I've used Digidesign's Eleven guitar plug-in and I was not all that impressed compared to the Line 6 stuff - though I did think it was better than Amplitube (which I have). To my ears, the Line 6 stuff sounds best, Eleven sounds a little bit sterile, and Amplitube sounds fake. The real trick is finding a solution that will not have noticeable latency for the performance. Good luck with that part, frankly. I usually either mic up an amp or use a POD XT Live instead of a plug-in, because I can't stand latency. I sacrifice post-performance production flexibility in favor of zero latency. With a super high-end Pro Tools HD system (which is what I would build if I had a lot of money), that's not an issue. But with most other systems it is.

If Ozone and Echo Boy are available for whatever system you use, I think they're pretty indispensible plug-ins for production.

Since I'm a Pro Tools guy, I don't know what firewire outboard gear will be best for Logic. Assuming that Logic has the same level of automation control and other control that the current generation of Pro Tools does, I don't see the point in having any physical sliders and knobs, other than maybe one great big master volume knob for your monitors.
posted by The World Famous at 7:31 PM on April 8, 2010

Don't neglect the audio environment. Unless you control the acoustic properties of the room you're in, you're never really in control. An hour with a studio tech should give an idea of what's necessary. Isolating hum and other noises elsewhere in the home will also be important to controlling the baseline.
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 7:38 PM on April 8, 2010

Ok for your computer, your going to need some real power for compiling the music. I would highly recommend custom building your own rig. You MUST get an i7. and if you can afford it, you should get the 980x. it will crush compiling with its 6 cores. next, you should get some triple monitor action going. grab 3 22 inch monitors. You will need alot of real estate to keep everything you want open visible. For a graphics card, you dont need crazy performance but something like a 5770 wouldnt be bad. You can do triple monitors with that. Make sure you get a motherboard with the right I/Os for your needs, and the right slots for more ports that you will need.

Have fun with making music :D
posted by NotSoSiniSter at 7:42 PM on April 8, 2010

Oops - I apparently edited out the part of my answer where I suggested that you go with a Logic system if you're not going to use Pro Tools. So, yeah, that.
posted by The World Famous at 7:46 PM on April 8, 2010

If you go Windows, I strongly recommend you not build your own rig. You have as good a chance as not that you will be in hell trying to figure out where some phantom buzz is coming from. Mefi's own Chimaera recently built a studio box that sends a certain noise to the monitors only when you highlight text on the screen in Sonar. Sounds insane, but I watched it happen. Spend a couple grand on something from PC Audio Labs, or Sweetwater, or one of their competitors. I do not know if Musicians Friend offers prebuilt machines with competitive specs, so if that source is a requirement, I am sorry for not being helpful.
posted by thedaniel at 8:00 PM on April 8, 2010 [1 favorite]

I know I'm going to take some garbage for this, but I have had 100% fun and great luck recording guitars with my Zoom g9.2tt pedalboard thing. The editor software is great, and it has a couple of tubes in it as well as a direct USB out. I also love the AdrenaLinn boxes, but if you find a guitar sound you love you can do the tempo-sync stuff "inside the box" with the CamelSpace VST. If dude is a musician and not a techie some familiar-looking equipment may make him more comfortable. All guitarists love screwing around with pedals.

The big thing to me is that there's sooooooo much you can do with a modern DAW that old faithful CoolEdit Pro can't. Check out Sonar 8.5 if you're sticking with a PC. It's staggeringly awesome. Acid 7 is great, but just can't handle outboard USB stuff, chokes on Windows 7 in my experience, and has weird MIDI implementation. YMMV, of course.

Have fun. This sounds like a good time.
posted by mintcake! at 8:03 PM on April 8, 2010

Nthing AKG headphones. Anyone who's logged some serious studio time will be familiar with them. They are comfortable, their quality is - if not unmatched, certainly rarely exceeded - and they are reasonably priced for top tier headphones.
posted by smoke at 8:09 PM on April 8, 2010

Monitors? Barefoot or Adam.

Interface? Metric Halo ULN-8.

But man, the real $ is going to go to microphones.

And don't forget room preparation. It can mean everything.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 8:26 PM on April 8, 2010

As thedaniel said above, last summer I spent $1400 and built my own computer. For reasons I have yet to fathom, it makes noise. Not an unacceptable/insurmountable level of noise, but enough to make me wish I'd spent double on a pre-built machine.

If you have the budget, I STRONGLY recommend a pre-built system like a RokBox from PC Audio Labs or a pre-built Sweetwater PC made for audio recording if you don't go Mac. If nothing else, you can just send it back if it makes noise. I, however, am in a position where a motherboard manufacturer would say it was the power supply, and vice versa. Buy a pre-built system and if there's a hitch, send the whole thing back.

If Pro Tools is out, Cakewalk SONAR is a highly powerful tool. I just bought (but haven't installed yet) the 8.5 producer edition and have been using it since version 3.0

As for firewire, Presonus, M-Audio, and MOTU all make good gear. You'd have a hard time going wrong with any of these makes.

Preamps? Avalon. Pricey (and many gearheads seem to hate them for some reason) but I love them and would buy one as soon as I have the chance.

Monitors? Everything from Yamaha to Fostex to Tannoy are good. I have a lower budget system but my Fostex PM-1 monitors have been going strong over 7 years (god, are they that old?).

Finally, since your guy sounds old school, he might appreciate the hardware metaphor in Reason and Record. Reason has been used on every song on every album I've ever released (in one capacity or another, sometimes even just for a cymbal strike or a low bass rumble).

Lastly, treatment, treatment, treatment! Go to Ethan Winer's site and do some quick learning. In my position, I don't have the budget to properly treat my room (yet) but every bit I add helps measurably.
posted by chimaera at 8:45 PM on April 8, 2010

I guess I should add -- are you in LA? If so, MeMail me and I may be able to help out in deciding what to go with.
posted by chimaera at 8:49 PM on April 8, 2010

Start small, with simple tools. Upgrade as you find them inadequate.

Ok for your computer, your going to need some real power for compiling the music.

Bullshit. Maybe in 1999 you had to build your own machine, but last year's 4GB MacBook Pro will run Logic and a pile of Native Instruments plugins while hardly touching the disk or CPU.

You will want something that has good and QUIET cooling, though.

New software isn't out of the question either, it's just that since I'm the one that will be producing/engineering him, I like my CEP 2.1- I also have Vegas and Acid.

Ok, ignore everyone that is telling you to get a mac - get your client the same stuff you use. Logic is a crashing machine that is full of strange quirks. If it weren't for my friends who use Logic, I would have given up on it long ago. It is best to use the same stuff as the people you know. Unless you enjoy frustration.

And yes, we'll be shopping through Musician's Friend.

Why would you want to do that? They are the same group as Guitar Center. There are plenty of nicer places to buy online.


Really, try to buy as little gear as possible. Scope out your next few projects - what will you need? Get that stuff. Music gear generally has fairly good resale value, and sometimes the cheap stuff is a lot easier to learn and use than the expensive stuff. If you can tell that your gear is limiting you, then it is time to start trading up.

Don't forget that a lot of really good equipment is vintage. Obviously you want today's latest computer and the best audio interface that money can buy, but almost everything else is as good ten years old as it is new. Half of the fun can be learning about and sourcing obscure old gear.

Don't start with the most expensive everything, start with the stuff you need and expect to use now.
posted by b1tr0t at 9:14 PM on April 8, 2010 [1 favorite]

Just wanted to mention that it's probably worth seeking advice, or at least reading of other's experiences at the Tape Op messageboard.

Enjoy.
posted by dirm at 9:46 PM on April 8, 2010

Logic is a crashing machine that is full of strange quirks. If it weren't for my friends who use Logic, I would have given up on it long ago. It is best to use the same stuff as the people you know. Unless you enjoy frustration.

As a Pro Tools user who has been considering moving over to Logic because I assumed that it was less trouble and cheaper to run than Pro Tools (which is not a crashing machine or full of strange quirks), I am glad to read this so I won't waste my money.

The main reason that I recommend a Mac is that you know it will work right out of the box, and that you won't run into some weird noise or something caused by some component that came from the wrong batch or something like that. I only use a Mac for my studio - and it's because it's a known quantity, and not because there is anything inherently better about the OS.

Don't start with the most expensive everything, start with the stuff you need and expect to use now.

This is fantastic advice. If you ask me what monitors and preamps to get with a huge budget, I'll tell you what I told you above. But that's not what I use in my own home studio, where I have inexpensive Fostex monitors and no mic pre's (because I don't think anything short of a fantastic pre is worth using). I do, however, have a pair of AKG K-240 headphones, because they're inexpensive and world-class - and because they are the same thing that my collaborators in multi-million dollar studios are using, so I know that what they hear when I send them a session will be the same thing that I heard when I made it on my little system. And I don't even have to worry about how well prepped my room is, because I'm listening on headphones when I mix.
posted by The World Famous at 9:47 PM on April 8, 2010

To eliminate the computer noise problem, could you just put the box in a closet or a different room, and hook it up to the studio with extra long DVI, USB, and FireWire cables?
posted by miyabo at 9:51 PM on April 8, 2010

Take some care to buy/assemble a snake out of quality cabling, with more lines than you need, and distribution amps and patch panels as needed, so that the guy never has to dig around behind his computer for a goddamn thing.
posted by davejay at 9:58 PM on April 8, 2010 [1 favorite]

Logic is a crashing machine that is full of strange quirks. If it weren't for my friends who use Logic, I would have given up on it long ago. It is best to use the same stuff as the people you know. Unless you enjoy frustration.

Pro Tools is a crashing machine that is full of strange quirks. If it weren't for my friends who use Pro Tools, I would have given up on it long ago. It is best to use the same stuff as the people you know. Unless you enjoy frustration.

This goes both ways. Both have their problems and quirks. I use both for various reasons.

If you are going to go with a PC, I recommend Cubase or Nuendo from Steinberg.

If you are gonna roll with a Mac, I recommend Logic. The drums sequencer and sounds included sound good and are easy to program.

As far as an interface is concerned, I recommend the Fireface 800 from RME. This can be expanded up to 56 inputs. If you do this, I recommend a 8 or 16 channel ADAT inteface. Plus you can daisy-chain them together. That being said, you might want to expand it with a nice stereo preamp/compressor for vocals and stereo overheads.

For monitors, I recommend Genelecs or KRK Rokit Powered 8. Yamaha monitors are still supposed to be good but I haven't heard them up close in years.

I have friends that work at music stores like Guitar Center and they make a lot of money off of people that come in and just want to buy everything in one go and get set up. With out trying things out and listening to different setups and buying what they think sounds best, they often buy something that is overpriced and might not sound as good as it should for their particular room.

If you can, rack up everything and wire it up to a patchbay. This saves so much time and reduces frustration.

Tell your client....

As far as monitors are concerned, go with your client to Guitar Center or where ever monitors are set up and listen. Bring a reference CD, something you know very well, preferable something produced in the last 5 years, and put it through the monitors and listen.

When you are starting out, you might end up buying somethings that don't really suit what you are doing because someone said something about something on some forum out there. Once you get up and running and become aware of what your requirements are, and train your ears, you be able to try things out at the store and determine what you like.
posted by chillmost at 2:57 AM on April 9, 2010

For monitors, I recommend Genelecs or KRK Rokit Powered 8.

Man, the Rokits always sound super boomy to me. Genelecs I like though.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 3:55 AM on April 9, 2010

This goes both ways. Both have their problems and quirks. I use both for various reasons.

Most audio software seems to be surprisingly crash-happy. When working with a client, you should use the stuff you know, rather than try to jump into new stuff together. If you are used to CE and Acid, you will be cursing up a storm at Logic's slightly different way of doing things. But I would have the same problem if I tried to switch back to Acid from Logic now.

If you think that Logic is the way to go for your projects (it might be), then take some time to learn it before you convince your client to get a copy.

If you are gonna roll with a Mac, I recommend Logic. The drums sequencer and sounds included sound good and are easy to program.

Ultrabeat and Sculpture are amazing. The other synths are generally easy to get started with, but I mostly prefer the various Native Instruments plugins to them.


Headphones: AKG K-240

At the risk of starting a religious war, also consider a pair of Sony MDR-7506 headphones. They won't blow anyone away, but these phones are standard in many studios across the world. However, I may pick up a pair of K-240s myself.
posted by b1tr0t at 6:25 AM on April 9, 2010

Hehe Beyerdynamic DT880 pro fan, myself.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 9:19 AM on April 9, 2010

Headphones: AKG K-240

also consider a pair of Sony MDR-7506

I have and really quite like those Sonys, but if I need another pair I will also be considering Sennheisers, I believe the one in a comparable price/performance range is the HD-280
posted by thedaniel at 11:17 AM on April 9, 2010

chillmost: I recommend a 8 or 16 channel ADAT inteface. I've often wondered what these inputs are used for. Surely not an actual adat, yes?
posted by toastchee at 4:52 AM on April 10, 2010

FWIW I have a A/V production degree from Ferris State U.

He went to the Guitar Center, did not have the patience to order stuff online and await it's arrival.

Anyways, He ended up getting a M-Audio 16-input firewire box, with a 3-port FW soundcard to connect it to his PC. (He went on his own, I had to be somewhere else). It's a sweet box.

I DID talk him out of getting a PC right away; I am going to order a custom-spec'd HP as my frined works for HP and can get a great deal for him. For now, we have it rigged up (don't laugh) to his E-machine (300GB HD, 2.20 dual-core, 3GB RAM) and it seems to handle it just fine (for now). CEP 2.1 and Vegas installed, (Windows 7) and everything appears to work just fine.

Also bought a set of Mackie monitors, (I left my notes at his house, not sure of any of this stuff's model #'s), they were $280 each and sound amazing, these will be used for near-field reference, once we treat the room this week, I will be measuring the bounce with my meter and and figuring out a 2.1 system for getting LOUD.

Also picked up two pairs of AKG K-240's, for the recording room, I myself love my Audio Technica's and am familiar with them, so I'll be using those.

Also obtained a copy of Logic, will have it as a back-up if CEP or Vegas starts giving me headaches.......

A lot of great info here, thanks audiophiles.... a few remaining inquiries:

Guitar software for plugging straight into the fw box? Simulators, etc?

Also, back-up power boxes?

Headphone amp/splitters for the muso's to hear the playback?

THIS IS FUN, I have a..... an erection.
posted by peewinkle at 10:31 AM on April 11, 2010

Also obtained a copy of Logic

You realize that Logic requires a mac, right?
posted by b1tr0t at 1:59 PM on April 11, 2010

That is one seriously nice collection of goodies. I would not have purchased the Mackie monitors however. I just feel they're overly priced. I myself am in love with Yamaha and KRK. Which amp did he decide on? I didn't see that on the list. I would recommend Crown.

And yes... Logic requires a mac. However if he purchased a Mac he will also be able to run PC based programs such as Cool Edit and Acid. Have you also looked into Har-Bal? It's a harmonic balancer specifically for mastering. Create your frequency range and key nodes and there you have it: a harmonically balanced master.

Good luck and have fun.
posted by The Audio Invasion at 3:51 PM on April 13, 2010