As an atheist, what should I do while others pray?

January 20, 2005 9:58 AM

Atheists, when you attend a public event that features a prayer and you wish to be polite, do you bow your head during the prayer? Do you say "amen" with everyone else? Theists, are you annoyed when others do not bow their heads?
posted by profwhat to religion & philosophy (97 comments total)

When in Rome.

Depends on the setting, though. If it were the prayer that was illegally snuck into my high school graduation -- in that case, no.
posted by inksyndicate at 10:03 AM on January 20, 2005

I try not to bow my head. It depends on whose event it is, and how much I want to avoid offending them. But generally, I just keep my head up, keep my eyes open, and remain silent.
posted by ascullion at 10:04 AM on January 20, 2005

I don't bow and I don't "amen". However, I also neither sing loudly through the prayer nor exclaim, "Well, that was a particularly egregious example of concentrated group delusion!" either.
posted by gramschmidt at 10:05 AM on January 20, 2005

Bowing one's head is more than "being polite," it is a gesture of submission. If one doesn't believe in the Being being submitted to, it would be silly to submit to it and might well feel more like submitting to the belief structure of the religious instead.

Saying "amen" is an act of prayer, and therefore I would never do it.

"Going through the motions" of something you don't believe in is not being polite; it's diminishing and cheapening the rituals of others (to whom they are meaningful) and is best avoided.
posted by rushmc at 10:05 AM on January 20, 2005 [1 favorite]

either => afterward
posted by gramschmidt at 10:06 AM on January 20, 2005

Well, I'm a somewhat practicing Catholic. I'm certainly not annoyed when people who might not share my faith don't bow their heads, and I definitely don't expect them to say "amen" with me. Just being quiet is enough respect for me. Then again, I married an atheist. . .

on preview, I completely agree with rushmc.
posted by katie at 10:07 AM on January 20, 2005

As a serious practicing Christian, I don't have a bit of problem with an atheist not bowing. It would be hypocritical of them to do so and I would not expect it from them. I would not bow at a Buddhist or Muslim prayer myself.
posted by konolia at 10:10 AM on January 20, 2005

I politely stay quiet and try and keep my 2 year old quiet, to be respectful for someone else's traditions. I've been admonished by other people for not praying along, but usually a VERY pointed look shuts them up.
posted by raedyn at 10:13 AM on January 20, 2005

"Going through the motions" of something you don't believe in is not being polite; it's diminishing and cheapening the rituals of others (to whom they are meaningful) and is best avoided.

I strongly agree.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:15 AM on January 20, 2005

I stand politely and look around to see who else is looking around. Usually someone is.
posted by atchafalaya at 10:17 AM on January 20, 2005

I don't say "Amen", because it's part of a prayer I don't wish to invoke.

I do, generally, bow my head as I consider it a sign of respect for the solemnity of the occasion rather than part of the ceremony. I do NOT, as rushmc says, consider it a form of submission, but a simple gesture that honors the situation.
posted by mkultra at 10:19 AM on January 20, 2005

I also agree, going through the motions isn't polite, it's actively cheapening the worship for the true believers.

I've gone to weddings where the celebrants insisted on mass and communion during the ceremony. I've always stayed in my seat during communion, suffering a few pointed looks, but I figure it's better than a non-baptised heathen simply pretending for politeness' sake.
posted by bonehead at 10:24 AM on January 20, 2005

I've always stayed in my seat during communion, suffering a few pointed looks, but I figure it's better than a non-baptised heathen simply pretending for politeness' sake.
Which is something that I also agree should be done. Speaking as a Catholic, a Catholic wedding (which takes place during Mass) is always interesting when a Catholic marries outside the Church because you'll have one half of the attendance go to Communion while the other half just chills there. However, the Priest or bride/groom usually makes it a point to let the non-Catholic side know what the deal is.
Also, at least at a Catholic Mass, I can usually spot who isn't Catholic (or just goes to Mass less often than x-mas/easter) by their confusion, especially when we make the sign of the cross. If friends come along, I usually tell them that it doesn't really matter either way if they do the motions, it's up to them- the only thing we get anal about is non-Catholics receiving Communion.
posted by jmd82 at 10:35 AM on January 20, 2005

Amen, konolia. ;-)

raedyn and bonehead - anyone who would look at you the wrong way is just simply wrong themselves. Besides, if I remember right from the last Catholic Mass I attended, they don't even allow Protestants to take Communion, it is only for "confirmed" Catholics.
posted by internal at 10:39 AM on January 20, 2005

I don't bow my head, I just take the opportunity to ogle the hotties in the crowd. Or, if there aren't any, I stare at the ceiling and think about lunch.
posted by cmonkey at 10:39 AM on January 20, 2005

Can I piggyback here? If you were a Catholic, having a Catholic wedding in a Catholic church, how would you feel if one of your (lapsed-Catholic -- meaning technically eligible to receive) groomsmen refused to receive communion?
posted by uncleozzy at 10:43 AM on January 20, 2005

"always interesting when a Catholic marries outside the Church..."

I was raised Unitarian and married a Catholic. We decided not to have a mass during the ceremony, but the priest, whom we later decided might have been drunk or smoking crack, botched the whole deal, mispronouncing my wife's name thoughout and then, to my horror, proceeded to bring out communion. When he got to me, I did sort of three stooge's chop block and he just blessed me. My atheist best man and jewish usher friend were not as quick thinking as I and accepted the wafer. I still tease them about their conversion to this day.
posted by brheavy at 10:44 AM on January 20, 2005

Simply standing quietly has never caused me friction with anyone else.

"Going through the motions" of something you don't believe in is not being polite

I agree, but this does raise a wider question. If an event is understood in advance by all invited to have a primarily religious context, should an aethiest politely excuse themselves and decline attendance? How much of an event do "the motions" cover?
posted by normy at 10:46 AM on January 20, 2005

Being that I don't beleive in organized religion, but I don't have a problem with Christianity in general, so I just shut the trap and act respectful. Sometimes I will think to myself my own personal hope/prayer/benediction appropriate to the situation, sometimes I will simply stand quietly. I don't say the Methodist Creed (I think that's what it's called) at my husband's parents' church, as I am not a Methodist.
posted by Medieval Maven at 10:54 AM on January 20, 2005

Do what you fell like doing, but i don't think bowing your head during a prayer cheapens the ritual at all. I come from a large, religious family that says prayer before every meal and I still bow my head and say "Amen" out of respect for everyone else's beliefs. I guess I look at prayers in more of a spiritual context than a religious one. People pray, sing hymns, attend church for a multitude of reasons only one of which is praising a deity which I don't believe exists. Many people, religious or not, find motivation, guidance, solace, and a social life through these rituals that are tied to religion. Even though I don't believe in god, I can still respect their adherence to those rituals and what good they get out of them.
posted by ttrendel at 10:56 AM on January 20, 2005

Quiet, head up, look around to see who else is quiet. Never had any negative reaction to it.
posted by signal at 11:01 AM on January 20, 2005

Can I piggyback here? If you were a Catholic, having a Catholic wedding in a Catholic church, how would you feel if one of your (lapsed-Catholic -- meaning technically eligible to receive) groomsmen refused to receive communion?

I am/was a catholic, and could never see faulting someone or being upset that they did not choose to participate in a religious ritual.

And technically, if he's a lapsed Catholic, he could be in a state of mortal sin, and not eligible anyway.
posted by Kellydamnit at 11:02 AM on January 20, 2005

No head bow, no amen in general, though as a former Catholic, I will usually go along in Mass, omitting the amens. I know that doesn't necessarily make sense, but I find Mass much less boring if I go along--the participation makes time disappear a little faster--and Jeebus knows I know the thing backwards and forwards.

Interstingly, I've noticed that lately in a lot of Catholic ceremonies that might include non-Catholics (funerals, weddings), the priest invites non-Catholics to come up and get a blessing while everyone else is receiving Communion. More inclusive than just sitting there, but it does make it harder to sneak out early while everyone else is distracted by the host.
posted by dame at 11:04 AM on January 20, 2005

I actually sometimes pray with people, though I'm an athiest. I substitute words here and there, though -- particularly any gender-specific God references. And in my mind I put airquotes around "God" (or sometimes say "Chair" or "Giant Lizard," quietly, of course) and instead of "Amen" I say, "Hey, thanks!" (Seriously. I mean, "thanks" is the non-religious "Amen," so why not? And, even if it's just bacteria and space-dust or a walking fish that gave me existence, I'm still thankful to them. Thanks, air-breathing fish!)

And there's DEFINITELY no head-bowing for me. Submission isn't a component of gratitude. It's actually quite the opposite, I think.

This may be more annoying to others than just standing there silently, though I don't mean to be disrespectful. I actually enjoy praying on a semi-spiritual atheist level. I feel a part of the group experience, I get to have my own non-religious gratitude, and also don't feel I have to sign on to what everyone else is praying for/to.

And after all, even among the religious, these prayers mean different things to each of them too, of course.
posted by RJ Reynolds at 11:07 AM on January 20, 2005

I'm more in ttrendal's camp; though I'm an atheist myself, I do actually have a lot of respect for religion, theology, and church ritual, and find it fascinating. I've read plenty of Augustine and Aquinas and religious poetry in my life and have found it all to be intensely rewarding. All of this being a way of saying that, though I'm an atheist, and though I don't like George Bush or Jerry Falwell or the Pope that much, I do respect religious observance and the thoughts and feelings behind it.

So anyway, I will always say the Our Father and "Amen," and bow my head, and, in general, join in the ceremonies to the extent that I can. At Catholic services this means I won't take communion. As I see it a lot of religious ceremonies--christenings, for example--are of great value, even if I don't believe specifically in the words being said, and I'm honored to go to them.
posted by josh at 11:11 AM on January 20, 2005

I'm an atheist (lapsed comfirmed Catholic) but I tend to bow my head slightly during prayers out of respect to the other folks. I don't see it as submitting to any supreme being, rather it's my way of saying "ok, I'll be quiet and let you do your thing."

"Amen", as I understand it, means "I believe" so under no circumstances do I say it.

If anyone ever said anything to me about not joining along I would politely inform them that I do not share their beliefs. Each time They brought it up I would become a bit less polite. Fortunately, this has never happened except in family situations where it's more of a joke than anything.
posted by bondcliff at 11:11 AM on January 20, 2005

no head bow no prayer and i make sure i look around to see who else is with me.

also at public functions i stand but refuse to put my hand over my heart for pledges and songs and the like. stand, yes, but until that pesky 'god' part is taken back out of the pledge there will be no heart holding! (and ive been doing that since i was like, 11 years old.)
posted by c at 11:15 AM on January 20, 2005

I will just stand or sit quietly (whatever everyone else is doing), keep my hands at my sides or clasped in a relaxed position, not bow, and not speak or mouth any of the words. My take on it is, this means something to a lot of the people here, and I respect that, but it doesn't mean the same thing to me, and I hope they respect that in turn.

If it is related to something solemn that I wish to honor (for instance, remembering the dead in a tragedy or dead people personally known to me), I will use the time as my own moment of meditation in my own quiet way.

I've never received any criticism for not joining in, but then I move in a pretty diversity-respecting crowd.
posted by matildaben at 11:15 AM on January 20, 2005

I'll generally do enough to not stick out. Head bowing in smaller groups. I'm an atheist--even if I do the whole prayer it doesn't mean anything. There is no god listening. My religion is not related to any rebellious acts and theres nothing to protect about it really. My (lack of) religion is personal and I'm not really interested in starting a conversation about it with someone who has just demonstrated a religious belief.
posted by joelr at 11:21 AM on January 20, 2005

As a strong atheist (with very religious parents), I try to avoid as many of these religion-centred events as possible so I don't have to be in such a situation.

A few times, however, I've had to do it (for a very good friend's wedding, for instance) and when that happens, I'll stand straight, put on my poker face, and sing a song in my head. I won't be caught dead bowing or mumbling anything. (Unlike josh and some others, I have no respect for religion, prayer, etc. - and I'm not trying to start a flame war; merely stating my position.)
posted by madman at 11:27 AM on January 20, 2005

Atheists, when you attend a public event that features a prayer and you wish to be polite, do you bow your head during the prayer?

I'm not an atheist, but respect is not solely the domain of theists.

I do NOT, as rushmc says, consider it a form of submission, but a simple gesture that honors the situation.

Amen.
posted by wackybrit at 11:37 AM on January 20, 2005

As an atheist, I don't really see any hypocrisy when I bow my head during a prayer, and might even say "amen", too. I don't have lots of opportunities to accidentally end up somewhere where prayer is thrust upon me, so it's usually in a semi-annual church drag-a-long or as grace before a meal at someone's house. Why do I do it? Usually because the people I am with would like me to, and it doesn't bother me to put my head down during a prayer to a god I don't believe in. I don't think that the mere act of an atheist doing these things cheapens them for others. In my mind it's similar to other learned rituals, like standing when you recite the Pledge of Allegiance. Why do I do that? I don't know, I just do it. To me, it seems rather innocuous enough.
posted by 23skidoo at 11:38 AM on January 20, 2005

I am and was raised an atheist. I don't think it matters whether I do or don't participate in a prayer, it has no meaning to me and I don't feel that I'm pledging anything. They are just empty words to me, and making a point of not participating feels like standing up to wave the atheist flag.

So if it would be obvious that I'm not participating I'll pretend to and mumble something to preserve the moment for those who care. If I don't think I'll stick out like a sore thumb then I don't bother.
posted by cali at 11:39 AM on January 20, 2005

I usually just look straight ahead.

The question I've always had, as an athiest, is what to do during Catholic weddings when they all say, "Peace be with you" and shake their neighbors hands. I usually never repeat along with the text and don't actively participate, but how can you turn down a stranger's handshake at a wedding without being coming off as a real prick?
posted by greasy_skillet at 11:44 AM on January 20, 2005

I think it depends quite a lot on the situation. I spent xmas with my sister's religious in-laws and looked down when they said grace before dinner - I probably didn't bow my head as much as others, but I took the moment to feel thankful in my own way, which seems to me never a bad thing.

I would not say "amen" or repeat words I did not believe, though. And if the words being said were offensive to me in some way (ie, if it was an exclusive prayer, like, only jesus-lovers win typa thing) then I might keep my head up on principle. but if it's a general "thank you, world, for letting us happen", I have no problem taking a moment to feel that sentiment.
posted by mdn at 11:45 AM on January 20, 2005

I just stand or sit silently. I've been called out for it though but I just shrugged it off. I think it got me uninvited to a lot of workplace lunch gatherings because I won't pretend to say grace.
posted by substrate at 11:50 AM on January 20, 2005

As a born and raised atheist, I just stand quietly and wait for the prayer to be over. I was one of two sitting people during the communion part of my friends' Catholic wedding. I'd never been to one before and was truly freaked out, but it seemed normal for everyone else, both their standing and my sitting. The priest was pretty nice and said if anyone wanted to, you could cross your arms in front of you before you got to him and he would bless you but not give you communion. I decided to pass anyhow. I feel pretty much like cali, I'm not married to my responses either way and try to be situationally appropriate. There have been a few churchy funerals I've been to for older family members that involved a lot of hymn singing which I found a little tough to skirt in any way that didn't feel either rude to my hosts or ridiculous to me, so it's an issue I'm constantly exploring.
posted by jessamyn at 11:51 AM on January 20, 2005

Why would you turn down a handshake and a "peace be with you," greasy? I mean, you're already there, so you are sort of taking part, and wishing peace doesn't really have any Jeebus in it if you don't want it to.
posted by dame at 11:52 AM on January 20, 2005

The question I've always had, as an athiest, is what to do during Catholic weddings when they all say, "Peace be with you" and shake their neighbors hands. I usually never repeat along with the text and don't actively participate, but how can you turn down a stranger's handshake at a wedding without being coming off as a real prick?

As an atheist, this is my favorite part of a Catholic wedding (or funeral, or what have you). It has basically zero necessary religious content, and is just a good gesture that there's no reason, at least none that I personally feel, to boycott. This seems like the "best" part of a religious service to me.
posted by josh at 11:54 AM on January 20, 2005

I took the moment to feel thankful in my own way...

I do the same, and the bowed-head simply is a way of acknowledging that. Not to get theological, but as an agnostic I see the call for prayer as a time to meditate privately on the subject of the prayer. We each consider the matter in our own ways. It just seems the most respectful thing to do.

Also, I really like the music of an Anglican service. Is that so wrong?
posted by bonehead at 11:56 AM on January 20, 2005

dame - I'm with greasy. As a non-theist, I always feel awkward when I get the "peace be with you" - especially from a stranger. I'm usually there as a drag-along with family, who know my beliefs, and have no problem with them. Usually, I respond with (ala Brian Regan) "You too!"
posted by ObscureReferenceMan at 12:04 PM on January 20, 2005

No.
posted by kamylyon at 12:05 PM on January 20, 2005

Dame, I've never turned down the handshaking. I realize that it's all meant to be in the spirit of togetherness, but part of me feels like I'm cornered into taking part in a religious ritual I don't believe in. And, in my mind, I can't separate the ritual from the religion, since this is an act that's unique to Catholic weddings.
posted by greasy_skillet at 12:05 PM on January 20, 2005

I've been a practicing pagan for over ten years now, and no one has taken offense at my not bowing my head, not even my born again grandmother. However I do lower my eyes out of respect, and do not crane about and fidget. I nod instead of saying amen, and if asked to give a prayer for a meal, I simply say, "Bless those that come here in friendship and love, and may they take away doubled what they bring to my table." Then I nod, everyone else says amen, and no one is the wiser.
posted by FunkyHelix at 12:21 PM on January 20, 2005

The "peace be with you" is actually a part of regular Catholic mass, as well as Catholic weddings.
posted by agregoli at 12:22 PM on January 20, 2005

Can I piggyback here? If you were a Catholic, having a Catholic wedding in a Catholic church, how would you feel if one of your (lapsed-Catholic -- meaning technically eligible to receive) groomsmen refused to receive communion?

Communion is only available to those who have confessed their sins and have not sinned since confession. Your groomsman simply isn't eligible for communion, so the point is moot.
posted by waldo at 12:31 PM on January 20, 2005

I'm a non-bower, looker-arounder too. My wife is Catholic, and we're raising our kids Catholic, but I'm an unapologetic (but not overt or over-enthusiastic) atheist. I sit in on Mass, but I don't bow, do the cross thing, or (obviously) get the cracker. It felt weird at first, but as jmd82 noted, I'm usually not alone. When everyone goes up for the cracker, there are several others like me just sitting and blinking.

The only thing that takes some fast-thinking is when everyone greets everyone else and "god-bless-yous" each other. I've yet to come up with something unobtrusive to say, so I just smile as we shake.
posted by pzarquon at 12:31 PM on January 20, 2005

Yeah, I think that whether or not bowing your head is some kind of an "act of submission" is very much up to you, and your own personal circumstances. As a long-time resident of the border between agnosticism and atheism--and a former Catholic altar boy--I've never hesitated to bow my head out of general sociability and an opportunity to meditate, but I've never felt forced to do that.

I might have felt a bit more defiant, or just less inclined to play along, if I felt I was being pressured, but I never have. (As a matter of fact, during one absurd escapade, I'm pretty sure that being able to loudly recite the Nicean Creed from memory actually saved me from getting arrested during the middle of a Mass. But that was from a different stage in my life.)

And on preview, pzarquon, "Peace be with you" is actually a very common variant. It's definitely routine enough that no one would think twice if you chose to say that instead.
posted by LairBob at 12:37 PM on January 20, 2005

The handshaking bit is great. It's human and it's acknowledges that "hey, nice to meet you" sort of thing. I'm cool with it.

Another reason I don't do the prayers and amening is that it would betray my beliefs as much as it would be disrespectful of others' opinions. To participate would be to make a farce of it all.
posted by five fresh fish at 12:38 PM on January 20, 2005

I grew up in a church environment, and now, after shedding many of the beliefs I held as a youth, I still visit the old congregation when home for the holidays. The church is full of "family"--people I have known and loved for decades, and I respect their faith even if I have discarded it myself, so I usually bow my head out of respect for their beliefs. However, I respectfully decline to partake in communion or to participate in call-and-response readings.

Incidentally, the current pastor does this really annoying thing at the beginning of each sermon. He holds a Bible in the air and says,

Repeat after me:
This is the word of God.
I am what it says I am.
I will do what it tells me to do.

I get nauseous just hearing it.

Also, I don't sing along with the hymns. I have trouble finding my correct vocal register with those songs, and anyone within earshot of me woukld likely feel sick.
posted by mds35 at 12:42 PM on January 20, 2005

I find the best metric for judging what I should do is this: what if it were a Hindu, Jewish, or Mooney ceremony -- what would I and would I not do? Sing? Maybe; I can't carry a tune in a bucket, so usually I don't. Drink the Koolaid? No. Accept a blessing from the minister/priest/deity/whatever? Maybe. Stand silent, attentive, and politely? Certainly.
posted by five fresh fish at 12:44 PM on January 20, 2005

Whenever I'm at religious ceremonies that are not of my own faith, I generally try to be respectful, without demeaning anything. Thus... stand/sit/kneel/bow when everyone else does. I think that's appropriate behaviour for anyone.

I certainly would never expect an atheist to say 'Amen,' or whatever your local religious equivalent is. However, I don't feel that you bowing your head while I pray cheapens my worship in the slightest; rather, as mkultra said, it's a gesture of respect for the solemnity of the occasion, and for the beliefs of those around you.

I find that atheists who are at known religious events who feel the need to passively-aggressively proclaim their superiority of nonbelief to be just as rude, boorish, offensive, and tiresome as the theists who insist on bringing God/dess into everything. When you attend a religious event, you should be prepared to show respect to those of us who believe differently than you do. As far as I'm concerned, that means not standing there and looking around while everyone else is doing their thing. If that's a problem for you, perhaps you shouldn't be at such events in the first place.

FWIW, 'amen' is a Hebrew word that means, roughly, 'so be it.'

The only thing that takes some fast-thinking is when everyone greets everyone else and "god-bless-yous" each other. I've yet to come up with something unobtrusive to say, so I just smile as we shake.

As LairBob said, "Peace be with you" is a perfectly acceptable response, and quite a nice sentiment too.


five fresh fish seems to have nailed it on the ehad. Active participation isn't required, but a healthy dose of respect is.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 12:47 PM on January 20, 2005

If my head is bowed, I can't see what others around me are doing, can I? So, no, I don't mind if others don't bow. Not bowing, by the way, doesn't necessarily mean atheist or even non-Christian; different faiths have different traditions.
posted by Doohickie at 12:52 PM on January 20, 2005

I don't think there's a right answer to this question, because there are too many variables: what sort of people are at the gathering, what will offend them, what you want out of the gathering, what will offend you, and how much you care about the messiness of social interaction vs. the neatness of intellectual stances.

It sounds a bit funny to me, when people here say things like, "I don't bow because that would be hypocritical, and presumably the believers wouldn't want me to be hypocritical..."

If you have a stance against hypocrisy, than by all means keep to the rules of your stance. Surely you must KNOW that society is complicated, and not everyone will interpret your abstinence as hypocricy-avoidance. It's FINE if you don't care, but it's silly to pretend that everyone is 100% rational and emotionally uninvested in these matters.

When you abstain from a ritual that everyone else is engaging in, that is -- or will be taken by many people as -- a form of communication. And it's not a very direct form of communication. It's open to interpretation ("I'm not bowing because I'm not a believer", "I'm not bowing because I disrespect this group and its rituals", etc.)

I am an atheist, and I'm not advocating partaking in the ritual or not partaking in it. I'm just suggesting that social rules -- if you care at all about what other people think -- are complex. Personally, if it's a group of people I don't know, I would bow. If I'm with a group of friends, I wouldn't. If their my friends, they know where I'm coming from.

incidentally, I'm curious to know what people here think of anthropologists who study "primitive" people. When they visit the village, should they refrain from taking part in the village rituals?
posted by grumblebee at 12:53 PM on January 20, 2005

I was raised fundamentalist and out of respect for my mom, I'll go to church when I visit her in Arkansas, even though I'm completely non-religious now. Mom doesn't talk about my religious status to her fellow church-goers, so occcasionally, I'll get asked to pray.

Since I was in this system until my early 20's, I know what is expected from a Baptist prayer and so I always give my audience what they expect. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but I do think its a bit fun to slip into improv mode and play the part of a deeply faithful believer, to reenact the person I used to be.
posted by pandaharma at 1:00 PM on January 20, 2005

I also wonder how many atheists here have deeply examined their behavior. Be true to yourself. Fine. Do you ALWAYS do this? Do you tell people they look fat? Do you tell the hostess that her cake tastes terrible? Are you true to yourself in ALL social events. Do you ever tell white lies or go with the flow? If you a friend of yours complements the hostess and then later admits that he hated the food, do you chastise him for dimishing the value of a TRUE compliment?

If so, then how are religious events different from other events in which we artfully maneuver around complex social situations? Is your purpose that the ceremony ONLY to be true to yourself, or is it also to make some kind of statement?
posted by grumblebee at 1:00 PM on January 20, 2005

Wow. Much love and respect for the grumblebee. Good one.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 1:10 PM on January 20, 2005

I look around! It's so NEAT to see all those people. Also, if I see any other looking-arounders, those are the people I talk to later.
posted by u.n. owen at 1:11 PM on January 20, 2005

grumblebee - what do you think the appropriate behaviour for an atheist in this situation is? That was part of the of the original question.
posted by raedyn at 1:40 PM on January 20, 2005

Usually this is at a family gathering, so I just make funny faces at all the other kids in the room.
posted by corpse at 1:53 PM on January 20, 2005

Wow. My story is exactly the same as pandaharma's.
posted by mbd1mbd1 at 1:54 PM on January 20, 2005

Since I'm not a Christian (but not an atheist either), I never go to church of my own accord anymore. I get my spiritual kicks elsewhere. But, I am a Protestant Christian by upbringing, so I go with my parents when I visit them. I go through all the motions while I'm there, right down to the actual mental exercise of prayer, and usually try to get something out of it. Sometimes I even pray when it's not socially expected of me. I have found that it is a useful mental organization/meditation technique.
posted by Laugh_track at 2:07 PM on January 20, 2005

As yet-another-raised-Catholic-gone-atheist, I find myself all over the board if put into these situations again. I'll usually make as if I'm going to bow, but then stop short and pull up to do the look-around thing (since most people I've seen usually close their eyes as part of the bow and won't see me fake them out). I may even pray along with some of the 'everybody pray now!' parts of the ceremony (sans the 'amen'), if only because the rhythm of the words has stuck in my head after all those Sundays as a youngun. And, apparently unlike pretty much everyone else here, I still get communion if I'm there. What can I say. I like digging its bland tastiness off the roof of my mouth during the last couple minutes of the service.
posted by Mrmuhnrmuh at 2:08 PM on January 20, 2005

I do indeed bow my head and begin praying, but not on purpose. I was raised catholic and attended catholic school, and when people say grace at the table or begin saying the Our Father all around me, I cannot help but join in. I usually realize what I'm doing about halfway through and stop muttering the prayer (but I keep my head bowed as to not draw attention to myself).
posted by falconred at 2:10 PM on January 20, 2005

Why not bow your head and say amen?

I'm an atheist and it's just another four letter word, and unlike certain others, it doesn't make people stare at you and point.
posted by shepd at 2:21 PM on January 20, 2005

uncleozzy, I'm Jewish and last year I was a bridesmaid in my Catholic friend's wedding. It was held in a Catholic church and when it came time for communion, I just stayed in my seat, as did the maid of honor who isn't Catholic. The bride and groom didn't have a problem with it. I don't think they'd have asked me to stand up if that was going to be a problem.

I always take part in the Peace be with you thing when I am at a mass. I think that's nice. : )

In general, though, when I'm at another religious service or there's an invocation at a banquet, I stand or sit or kneel or do whatever everyone else does. I do bow my head and I do take part in prayers if they're to God, but if they're to Jesus or the Virgin Mary or whoever else, I keep quiet.
posted by SisterHavana at 3:08 PM on January 20, 2005

grumblebee - what do you think the appropriate behaviour for an atheist in this situation is? That was part of the of the original question.

I thought I answered it. For me, it depends on the specifics of the situation. I act one way if I'm with strangers or acquainances and another way if I'm with friends.
posted by grumblebee at 3:12 PM on January 20, 2005

Eh, I usually bow my head, mostly in deference to the other people present. I don't believe god exists, so I'm not really too picky about appearing to submit to its will. I've even been known to utter an occasional 'amen' if I like what was prayed for. I'm not the kind of atheist who needs to shock all the believers around him or convince them that they're wrong.
I think religion is tremendously interesting; I just don't have any capacity for it myself.
posted by willpie at 3:29 PM on January 20, 2005

I'm an atheist. No problem with praying as long as it isn't something I complete disagree with. (e.g. unbelievers to suffer eternal torment) A large proportion of prayers seem to be a voiced desire for something good to happen to someone or something, and I can get behind that. Asking for hope and good things for "those less fortunate than ourselves" is as religious as wishing somebody a happy birthday or saying "good health" before clinking drinks.

Even though it is a submissive gesture, I'll bow my head as a mark of respect.
posted by seanyboy at 3:33 PM on January 20, 2005

I'm not an atheist, but I generally don't like praying along with someone I don't know personally. If I were at a wedding or a funeral or something, I'd lower my eyes, but I don't think I'd bow my head. I certainly wouldn't be offended if others didn't bow their head or offer an "Amen" (even if I was in church).

In my opinion, it's absolutely ridiculous to get offended or upset by someone trying to respect your beliefs (by standing quietly, but not participating) while preserving their own.
posted by lynda at 3:41 PM on January 20, 2005

I agree with grumblebee.
posted by josh at 3:46 PM on January 20, 2005

I'm not an atheist nor a Christian (raised Episcopalian/Anglican). In public situations, my actions vary with the situation and what I'm feeling that day. With family it's usually a "bow the head and think happy thoughts for those not with us". I can deal with that.
posted by deborah at 4:24 PM on January 20, 2005

a public event that features a prayer

This simply doesn't happen in my country. The only occasions when prayers are offered are when they are relevant to the proceedings, say in a wedding, funeral or christening, or maybe a memorial service. Those are, to be sure, public events, but we don't have an Oath of Allegiance, with monotheistic wording, or prayers, in places where that's not the main purpose.

When I agree to be in a church, I'll be respectful, and shake hands, uttering good wishes, sure; why not - that's exactly what I want others to offer me and I always attempt to reciprocate. It's just that I do that in and out of 'holy' buildings & events.

Bow my head, or say 'amen': that would make me a hypocrite, something my ex-co-religionists are even more watchful of in me than I am myself.
posted by dash_slot- at 4:44 PM on January 20, 2005

Actually, I may very slightly bow my head to be polite, only insofar as my failure to bow my head isn't misread as a sign of intentional disrespect. Other than trying to avoid giving the impression of being an aggressive atheist, I very deliberately don't participate in worhsip in any sense, including bowing head, etc., as a way of affirming my respect for the faith of the theists around me. That is, in my view, going through the motions, even slightly, as a nonbeliever is a form of mockery, even if not intended as such.

My sister, who everyone by now knows is an evangelical minister, was married last February in a relatively small service. Say, 30-40 people, tops. Anyway, the service was almost wall-to-wall prayer and singing, and midway through, my sister and soon-to-be-brother-in-law gave communion the entire assemblage.

Out of the entire group, myself and one of my aunts where the only ones to not take communion. While my sister's friends and the like were quite certainly believers, there were family that were are agnostic or at least non-church-going believers like both our parents.

When my sister and her husband were planning this, I happened to be around when they planned the logistics of the communion. My sister said to her husband: "Well, Keith won't participate and I wish more people were like him—some of the people will go through the motions and it won't mean anything."

So...your mileage will vary.

During "saying grace" at dinnertime, when that comes up (which isn't that often for me to be in such a social situation), I try to be as mild and kindly and non-offensive as I can while I neither bow my head or close my eyes. No one has ever said they were offended. (Although, given that they had their heads bowed and eyes closed, maybe they rarely notice!)
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 5:03 PM on January 20, 2005

I do NOT, as rushmc says, consider it a form of submission, but a simple gesture that honors the situation.

Yeah, I think that whether or not bowing your head is some kind of an "act of submission" is very much up to you, and your own personal circumstances.

Except that it isn't, and is not a matter of what *I* say, it's a gesture with a specific origin and history, and to dismiss that and pretend like it's something it isn't is simply dishonest.
posted by rushmc at 5:04 PM on January 20, 2005

Much cool stuff in this thread, and a demonstration that MeFi can (sometimes) do religion well...

FWIW, speaking as another atheist/agnostic borderlander, I don't join in prayer/amens/hymns, keeping respectful silence instead, but I do the head-bow, largely because to me it signifies an acknowledgement of the limitations of my own ego and my comprehension of the cosmos. It's good to be reminded sometimes that there is Larger Stuff going on, and it doesn't really matter to me if the people on either side of me construe that as the hand of God and I construe it as the cosmic forces of creation and destruction, the astonishingly complex products of evolution, the still-reverberating deep-space echoes of the Big Bang, the unlikeliness of the quark or the liver fluke, whatever. It passeth my understanding, it's bigger than my selfhood or my ego, and it's good sometimes to be reminded of that, and humbled. And it does me no harm to acknowledge that humility, in the company of others whose interpretation varies from mine.
posted by Kat Allison at 5:15 PM on January 20, 2005

With respect to communion and the Catholic Church: Anyone who is not part of the Catholic Church is not, I repeat not, welcome to partake of communion. This applies not only to atheists but most other Christian groups as well.

That being said, I took communion as an ex-Catholic at my godmother's funeral. I felt strongly moved to do this, out of a deep reverence to my godmother. Even though I left the Catholic Church, she had a great influence on my spiritual life. I can't remember her ever telling me about God, at least not with her words, but the woman was as close to a saint as anyone I've known.
posted by Doohickie at 5:34 PM on January 20, 2005

"no head bow no prayer and i make sure i look around to see who else is with me. "

Now, see, I always kind of thought that whether someone bows their head or not is their own business. It seems disrespectful to take that moment as an opportunity to look around and analyze who's playing the game. Certainly it would bother me.

I was raised in the church, left at 18 and have had no wish to return. But if I am in a situation where a prayer is done (funeral, wedding, etc.) I do bow my head, as prayer seems to be a private moment, and I bow out of respect for those who wish to participate. It is more of a privacy thing, IMHO. It has absolutely nothing to do with submission when I do it. It's just decent not to stare at people who are praying.

I sometimes say "amen" but what it really means is "amen, that's done, we're one step closer to the potluck!"
posted by litlnemo at 5:49 PM on January 20, 2005

Yah, looking around isn't cool. It's quite disrespectful.
posted by five fresh fish at 5:55 PM on January 20, 2005

I'm deeply troubled by the idea that atheists were confronted by non-atheists for not "going through the motions" at religious gatherings. I guess there's always going to be some nosybody who acts as the self-appointed prayer police. Isn't the whole idea of prayer and contemplation to get in touch with the spiritual/divine? If so, how did it come to pass that while they were being so revenant, they were simultanously noticing certain others who refrained from participating?

As far as Mass goes -- I'm about as lapsed as a Catholic can get, but when it comes to having to attend for weddings, funerals, and that sort of thing, I generally play along. I can see how a non-Catholic at mass in those settings can feel particularly marginalized, because choosing not to participate in certain aspects really stands out - particularly at communion, as some have mentioned, as well as the knowing-when-to-kneel/stand/sit cues. The sign of peace, though, should be a no-brainer. I don't know how a show of peace could be offensive to anyone. It's not as though shaking your pew-neighbor's hand signifies digging the Pope and everything he stands for. That's the one part of Mass I always liked. Plus, it means it's nearly over! (I vaguely recollect a similar moment in the Lutheran ritual which I would occasionally attend with one of my HS friends but maybe I'm wrong).
posted by contessa at 5:56 PM on January 20, 2005

Recovering Catholic here. If I do end up at a Mass (or religious wedding, or religious funeral), which doesn't happen often, I use it as meditation time. I know all the prayers and usually I say them, just because. Ritual can be comforting. I may or may not take part in graces before meals and I certainly won't take part in prayers at public events or the Pledge of Alligance (the "under God" part doesn't belong in there). I might bow my head at Mass, or for a grace, but not for a public prayer unless it's a really non-denominational moment of silence sort of thing. I think as long as you are quiet and look respectful you're being perfectly polite. "Amen" is not necessary.

I never take Communion, and there are always other people sitting out Communion too - it's a very acceptable practice and not at all remarkable. "Peace be with you" is one of my favorite parts of the Mass, and you don't even have to say anything but "Peace" and shake hands. It's a lovely sentiment.
posted by Melinika at 6:08 PM on January 20, 2005

Except that it isn't, and is not a matter of what *I* say, it's a gesture with a specific origin and history, and to dismiss that and pretend like it's something it isn't is simply dishonest.

The notion that bowing your head is an act of submission is pretty established, but I think that you can definitely submit and be deferent to those around you rather than necessarily to a higher power.
posted by juv3nal at 6:25 PM on January 20, 2005

I'm Orthodox Christian, and our services have lots of ritual aspects. We make the sign of the cross, kiss icons, sing common hymns, say common prayers, bow at times, stand up at times. Women cover their heads, with a scarf, cloth or hat of some sort.

I've never seen someone not of our faith urged to join in rituals, or hymns, etc. It would disrespect them, and simultaneously cheapen the things we do as signs of respect, in my opinion.

Now, after a midnight liturgy for Pascha (Easter) in a Russian congregation, I have seen people have vodka and herring pressed on them. But that's a cultural thing, not a religious thing.

If I was at a public meeting a person offered a public prayer, I wouldn't join in. I'd just remain silent. Respect, no more, no less.
posted by sacre_bleu at 7:16 PM on January 20, 2005

I'm with c: stand, no bow and no prayer and I'm not even an atheist.

At the American national anthem I'll stand, but no hand over heart. But I've been heckled twice now at Major League Baseball games for not standing when they ruin the 7th inning stretch with "god bless america."
posted by ?! at 7:18 PM on January 20, 2005

I'm a theist, and I don't always bow my head or close my eyes. I don't always fold my hands, either.

No hard feelings towards atheists that don't do that stuff either.
posted by Alt F4 at 7:20 PM on January 20, 2005

To me it is odd that the question of an atheist taking part in the Catholic communion is ever raised. As a child I spent many Saturday nights over at my Catholic friend's house and went to mass with her the next morning. I would have been afraid to take communion-- sure that every person in her small parish knew I was not Catholic.

Also I was not allowed to take communion at my own church-- my mother was very strict about this. You should be confirmed in the Methodist church first, and although others allowed their children to sip the grape juice I was always told that I didn't understand the ritual well enough.

To this day even though I am a staunch atheist, I will sing the hymns just to pass the time. I also bow my head because it would hurt the feelings of my family if I did not. My father in law insists on saying grace at my table when I am hostess. Sometimes this exasperates me (just as when they say grace in a restaurant) but they are family. You put up with a lot from family.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:32 PM on January 20, 2005

I've certainly sat out my fair share of communions.

I spend my summers as a counselor at a very secular boys' camp, whose director is a faithful Christian. There is grace said before every meal. At breakfast we sing our thanks to God, and in that I participate, mainly because I sit at the head of a table of impressionable 11-year olds, I don't feel it's my place to make any statements to them about religion, and I feel like going with the flow makes a lot less of a statement than conspicuously abstaining from the song.
Dinner and supper "blessings" are given by various members of the camp community, only a few of whom ever pray to Jesus, though most invoke "God," or "Father," or someone like that. During these I put my hands on the back of my chair (we're standing), look at my plate, and mumble something close enough to "amen" for 11-year olds to assume that's what I'm saying. I generally take the time to reflect on how lucky I am to be at camp and hope that my campers are thinking the same thing. If I were to look around, they would do that too and I think that would be wrong of both of us.
Basically, I try to reflect thankfulness and humility, but not religiosity.
posted by PhatLobley at 7:43 PM on January 20, 2005

Lifelong athiest. Sometimes I bow my head out of general respect, sometimes I look around. Always uncomfortable. I find the handshaking thing awkward and usually get flustered and forget to say "peace be with you."
I struggle to find a balance between showing respect, squashing my own personal bewildered resentment that such magical rituals persist and fighting that peer pressure thing of not going along with a group.
Luckily, I live among heathens and always have lots of other people sitting around me during communion. Also, I have thankfully never had to sit down at a table where someone said grace. (The thought of being called upon to say it fills me with horror.) But thanks to RJ Reynolds, I will now also be fighting the giggles thinking of offering up an amen to the walking fish.

Having not grown up in America, the pledge of allegiance makes me uncomfortable too - it seems creepy to me to stand en mass and recite pledges of national fealty - and I usually just stand mute and feel horribly conspicuous. Good thing it's short.
posted by CunningLinguist at 8:44 PM on January 20, 2005

My mom, who is ardently Catholic, once paid me a great compliment by telling me she was proud that I was the only one who didn't take communion at my cousin's wedding - I sat there instead of faking it and going up to the rail.
posted by notsnot at 8:56 PM on January 20, 2005

pandaharma and mbd1mbd1 -- amen to both of you. I visit my Orthodox Jewish sister fairly often, and if I happen to come on a Saturday or holiday, I'll usually go to the synagogue and say the old prayers that I'm used to, even though I don't believe anyone's on the receiving end. There's something almost comforting in knowing exactly what you have to say, and when. I haven't been asked to lead any services, but I think I'd feel perfectly comfortable doing so...

This, of course, raises another question: is it ethical to eschew another's beliefs if, according to your belief system, there are no ill consequences? Can I, say, be a witness at an Orthodox wedding even though I could be technically invalid to do by reason of my heathenous ways?
posted by greatgefilte at 10:23 PM on January 20, 2005

I'm agnostic with some pagan inclinations.

Sometimes I do the head-bow thing. Other times, I don't.
posted by Clay201 at 10:23 PM on January 20, 2005

Atheist. I bow to no one, real or imaginary. And if the faithful are all really bowing their heads they won't know that I'm not.
posted by TimeFactor at 10:56 PM on January 20, 2005

dame - I'm with greasy. As a non-theist, I always feel awkward when I get the "peace be with you" - especially from a stranger.
As an active Catholic, this is the most awkward time of Mass to me, too!! Actually, something really throws me off at some Churches where we're supposed to meet and greet our neighbors before Mass begins. Dunno, just don't like it.

Communion is only available to those who have confessed their sins and have not sinned since confession. Your groomsman simply isn't eligible for communion, so the point is moot.
Maybe I should e-mail you to clarify this, but let me make this very clear:
In the case of venial (minor) sins, they are forgiven at Mass so he is in fact eligible for Communion. It is only with Mortal sin a Catholic needs to go to proper confession (this is the Church's teaching, at least).
posted by jmd82 at 11:06 PM on January 20, 2005

Raised Lutheran (but went to Catholic school for a while and can still say the Our Father and Hail Mary in Latin), unbeliever since 14 or so, don't join in prayers or say Amen, do sing hymns if I know them -- in fact, I sometimes sing "A Mighty Fortress" in the shower, it's a damn good song. As for head-bowing, it depends on the situation and my mood; I don't agree with rushmc that it automatically implies submission. My favorite services are Russian Orthodox -- the music is terrific!
posted by languagehat at 3:39 AM on January 21, 2005

Maybe I should e-mail you to clarify this, but let me make this very clear:
In the case of venial (minor) sins, they are forgiven at Mass so he is in fact eligible for Communion. It is only with Mortal sin a Catholic needs to go to proper confession (this is the Church's teaching, at least).
Yeah, but have you seen the list of mortal sins?? I don't think most normal people can leave the house in the morning without touching on at least one or two of them.
Masturbation, sex outside a Catholic marriage, blasphemy, atheism, skipping church on Sundays... (and it goes on from there!)
No wonder most Catholics have lapsed.
posted by Kellydamnit at 7:46 AM on January 21, 2005

Kellydamnit
I'm Anglican, not Catholic and as such have little knowledge of the catchetism. But your link says that "In order for a sin to be mortal, it must meet three conditions:
* Mortal sin is a sin of grave matter
* Mortal sin is committed with full knowledge of the sinner
* Mortal sin is committed with deliberate consent of the sinner"

So even if a Catholic engaged in the full list of 'sins of grave matter' before leaving the house in the morning (which would result in a most varied and interesting lifestyle) they would not have committed a mortal sin unless they did it of their own free choosing, in the full knowledge that it was a mortal sin. I have a sneaking suspicion that there's a lot less mortal sin around than many people would have you think.
posted by talitha_kumi at 4:17 PM on January 21, 2005

Yah, looking around isn't cool. It's quite disrespectful.

who is going to see me? god? certainly not anyone with their head bowed.

this is why i avoid church functions! peer pressure, family obligation. forcing me to go to their church is pretty disrespectful as well.

sleeping in is as close to god as it gets, guys.
posted by c at 4:21 PM on January 21, 2005