Advice about moving to Montreal for artists
December 7, 2009 6:21 PM Subscribe
Advice about moving to Montreal (for artists)?
I've decided I want to move to Montreal. I've been doing a lot of research, including looking through old Metafilter posts, but do not have a clear sense yet of what my chances are or the best channels to pursue.
Please help me find out:
-- Whether I stand a chance (only reasonable, empirically-based responses, please)
-- And, if yes, suggestions on how to best go about it
Some pertinent information:
I am 30, a writer (of literature), live in Boston. Was educated at a 'good liberal arts college,' and had a semester at Oxford studying creative writing.
My English is excellent, and I also have a high level of fluency in Russian. I do not speak French, but if I had the opportunity to move to Montreal, would straightway try to take the French classes sponsored by the government.
(By the way, does anyone have any information about this?-- Apparently, the Quebec government, in order to 'Francify' new residents and improve their chances of finding employment, will provide them with free French classes and a living stipend while taking them. One person seemed to indicate that they could be arranged as part of the Visa process, but, as I research, the catch-22 seems to be that one needs to obtain a Visa beforehand.)
For the last five years or so, I've been working part-time at office manager-type jobs while simultaneously working on my writing. I have also made money occasionally as a freelance editor, Russian translator, and illustrator (though no official degrees to prove I have these skills).
In Montreal, my plan would be to continue working part-time, also possibly freelancing in editing and illustration, and working on my writings the rest of the time.
I was thinking that, if it would be helpful and possible-- which it probably isn't--, I could also provide a 'resume' and attachments of publications and writings as a sort of appendix to the Visa application.
For more specific information, please see a previous post.
(Yes, I realize they are similar-- but this is one is specifically about Montreal.)
Thanks!
I've decided I want to move to Montreal. I've been doing a lot of research, including looking through old Metafilter posts, but do not have a clear sense yet of what my chances are or the best channels to pursue.
Please help me find out:
-- Whether I stand a chance (only reasonable, empirically-based responses, please)
-- And, if yes, suggestions on how to best go about it
Some pertinent information:
I am 30, a writer (of literature), live in Boston. Was educated at a 'good liberal arts college,' and had a semester at Oxford studying creative writing.
My English is excellent, and I also have a high level of fluency in Russian. I do not speak French, but if I had the opportunity to move to Montreal, would straightway try to take the French classes sponsored by the government.
(By the way, does anyone have any information about this?-- Apparently, the Quebec government, in order to 'Francify' new residents and improve their chances of finding employment, will provide them with free French classes and a living stipend while taking them. One person seemed to indicate that they could be arranged as part of the Visa process, but, as I research, the catch-22 seems to be that one needs to obtain a Visa beforehand.)
For the last five years or so, I've been working part-time at office manager-type jobs while simultaneously working on my writing. I have also made money occasionally as a freelance editor, Russian translator, and illustrator (though no official degrees to prove I have these skills).
In Montreal, my plan would be to continue working part-time, also possibly freelancing in editing and illustration, and working on my writings the rest of the time.
I was thinking that, if it would be helpful and possible-- which it probably isn't--, I could also provide a 'resume' and attachments of publications and writings as a sort of appendix to the Visa application.
For more specific information, please see a previous post.
(Yes, I realize they are similar-- but this is one is specifically about Montreal.)
Thanks!
If you click on 'Immigrate and Settle' in the Quebec Immigration link you sent, you can explore the various classes of visas you can apply for. If you click on 'permanent workers' (I assume this is the category you're applying under, none of the others seem to fit) it will take you to an online tool which can evaluate your chances of being selected. Have you tried that yet?
posted by PercussivePaul at 6:42 PM on December 7, 2009
posted by PercussivePaul at 6:42 PM on December 7, 2009
When I wanted to move to Montreal, a couple of things I came across were...1.) It's considerably less expensive than the other major Canadian cities, and 2.) Hochelaga is not a good part of town.
I looked for my montreal links, but I guess I deleted them all when I "decided" I didn't want to move there after all....the only thing I found left is moremontreal.com.
posted by lhude sing cuccu at 6:44 PM on December 7, 2009
I looked for my montreal links, but I guess I deleted them all when I "decided" I didn't want to move there after all....the only thing I found left is moremontreal.com.
posted by lhude sing cuccu at 6:44 PM on December 7, 2009
P.S. I always get nervous when I see Americans talking about "moving" to Canada rather than "immigrating" (which is what they should be saying) because it suggests to me that they have not recognized the difficulty and complexity of the process they are about to embark on. The fact that you're at least thinking about visas is a good sign, though.
posted by PercussivePaul at 6:47 PM on December 7, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by PercussivePaul at 6:47 PM on December 7, 2009 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks, zadcat, that is helpful. And not negative-- realistic, I'd say.
Just to clarify-- I don't write any kind of journalistic pieces, and don't make money through writing (at least, not yet). I occasionally do some editing (term papers, theses, admissions essays, etc), but these are just sporadic gigs to make some extra money. Otherwise, I've been working part-time at office manager-type jobs to free up time for creative writing.
The main issues here seem to be: 1) lack of French; and 2) potential inability to prove that I'm a 'skilled worker' who could find gainful employment and contribute to Montreal society. I'm not sure I would be able to explain my position effectively in the immigration application-- especially without consultation, which I probably can't afford.
posted by cotesdurhone at 7:04 PM on December 7, 2009
Just to clarify-- I don't write any kind of journalistic pieces, and don't make money through writing (at least, not yet). I occasionally do some editing (term papers, theses, admissions essays, etc), but these are just sporadic gigs to make some extra money. Otherwise, I've been working part-time at office manager-type jobs to free up time for creative writing.
The main issues here seem to be: 1) lack of French; and 2) potential inability to prove that I'm a 'skilled worker' who could find gainful employment and contribute to Montreal society. I'm not sure I would be able to explain my position effectively in the immigration application-- especially without consultation, which I probably can't afford.
posted by cotesdurhone at 7:04 PM on December 7, 2009
I assume that you are ineligible for a TN visa. You should, however, look into it, because if I am mistaken, it is a fairly easy way to get a visa once you already have a job.
posted by jeather at 7:18 PM on December 7, 2009
posted by jeather at 7:18 PM on December 7, 2009
I know someone who is a french teacher in a program for new comers... Canada is welcoming too many people for the money that the country is actually willing to invest in their ''french class''. As a result: you need to fight for your place in a class. Sad but true, easier to get free english classes in Montreal than french ones.
People who don't speak french here can struggle a whole lot or live full-time in some ghetto of the city. If you can, move to a part of town where there is more french (to get the maximum out of that immersion). Montreal is hard for anglophones: 1- lots of people speak english 2- if they don't speak it well then they will want to practice with you so no chance to actually learn french. If you are able to move somewhere else in the province for while: go for it! I think it could only benefit you for the futur. Quebec city could be a good option.
Last thing: some french people could be rude with you if you don't speak the language... I think that you might get more sympathy if you tell them right away: I just got here or I am from the states.
posted by Ahhhnouck at 7:39 PM on December 7, 2009
People who don't speak french here can struggle a whole lot or live full-time in some ghetto of the city. If you can, move to a part of town where there is more french (to get the maximum out of that immersion). Montreal is hard for anglophones: 1- lots of people speak english 2- if they don't speak it well then they will want to practice with you so no chance to actually learn french. If you are able to move somewhere else in the province for while: go for it! I think it could only benefit you for the futur. Quebec city could be a good option.
Last thing: some french people could be rude with you if you don't speak the language... I think that you might get more sympathy if you tell them right away: I just got here or I am from the states.
posted by Ahhhnouck at 7:39 PM on December 7, 2009
You kind of don't get a chance to 'prove' your case, until you pass the first screening, which is heartless and point-based. So having gone through the list here, I made some estimates as to your chances. You need 49 points to get past the first test.
Undergrad degree - 10 of 12 points
Area of training: English/literature, foreign: Section "D": 0 of 16 points
Validated employment offer: 0 of 10 points
Experience: 8 of 8 points
Age: 16 of 16 points
Language proficiency: 6 of 22 points (6 of 6 for English, 0 of 16 for French)
Stay in Quebec: 0 of 8 points
Spouse's characteristics: N/A
Children: N/A (8)
Financial self-sufficiency: 1 of 1 point. (look into this, it's a yes/no based on your net worth and I don't know how they calculate it)
Total: 10 + 2 + 8 + 16 + 6 + 1 = 43 points.
So given my best guess at your situation, you won't make the cut. However, getting a validated job offer in Montreal is worth another 6 points which puts you over the top. Alternatively you could start learning French and try to get up to whatever level they need from you. Alternatively you could do a one-year diploma in a skilled trade they need and get some more points that way. For example, according to the list, a 1-year Masonry certification is worth 12 points, and a 1-year certification in Retail Butchery is worth 16, presumably because those skills are in demand in Quebec.
posted by PercussivePaul at 7:59 PM on December 7, 2009
Undergrad degree - 10 of 12 points
Area of training: English/literature, foreign: Section "D": 0 of 16 points
Validated employment offer: 0 of 10 points
Experience: 8 of 8 points
Age: 16 of 16 points
Language proficiency: 6 of 22 points (6 of 6 for English, 0 of 16 for French)
Stay in Quebec: 0 of 8 points
Spouse's characteristics: N/A
Children: N/A (8)
Financial self-sufficiency: 1 of 1 point. (look into this, it's a yes/no based on your net worth and I don't know how they calculate it)
Total: 10 + 2 + 8 + 16 + 6 + 1 = 43 points.
So given my best guess at your situation, you won't make the cut. However, getting a validated job offer in Montreal is worth another 6 points which puts you over the top. Alternatively you could start learning French and try to get up to whatever level they need from you. Alternatively you could do a one-year diploma in a skilled trade they need and get some more points that way. For example, according to the list, a 1-year Masonry certification is worth 12 points, and a 1-year certification in Retail Butchery is worth 16, presumably because those skills are in demand in Quebec.
posted by PercussivePaul at 7:59 PM on December 7, 2009
Oops, the list is here
p.s. this all comes second hand from a website I found on Google, no warranty!
posted by PercussivePaul at 8:00 PM on December 7, 2009
p.s. this all comes second hand from a website I found on Google, no warranty!
posted by PercussivePaul at 8:00 PM on December 7, 2009
Oops also you have 41 points not 43, since I screwed up your 'training' the first time round and gave you 2 points that you only get with a Quebec degree.
posted by PercussivePaul at 8:01 PM on December 7, 2009
posted by PercussivePaul at 8:01 PM on December 7, 2009
You don't have to apply for idiotic Quebec immigration. You can apply as a regular Canadian permanent resident "independent class" immigrant, say you want to move somewhere outside Quebec if the question is posed--try Ottawa, very strong economy and plausible for an English-speaking immigrant and very convenient for your subsequent move to Montreal--and then, after as much time as you care to take, move from your settlement city (outside Quebec) to Montreal. They can't stop you from doing this; Quebec is still part of Canada.
posted by ethnomethodologist at 9:04 PM on December 7, 2009
posted by ethnomethodologist at 9:04 PM on December 7, 2009
Have you considered applying for a graduate program? University in Quebec is dirt cheap (and potentially free, if you do it right), there is lots of money for the arts and humanities, and it puts you in a good position to learn French and apply for permanent residence status.
I am in a PhD program in music at McGill, am living comfortably, and do not have another job. (I know...I know...grad school. But if you're really looking to move here legally, it may be your best chance.)
posted by nosila at 9:36 PM on December 7, 2009
I am in a PhD program in music at McGill, am living comfortably, and do not have another job. (I know...I know...grad school. But if you're really looking to move here legally, it may be your best chance.)
posted by nosila at 9:36 PM on December 7, 2009
I think grad school would be by far the easiest and best way to make this happen.
On the question of whether you'd be able to stick around and make it work during and after - overall it really depends on your comfort with living a bohemian lifestyle - working odd jobs, freelancing at a bunch of different things, being relatively unrooted professionally but able to sustain an art practice regardless. If that sounds OK to you - well there are thousands of people who live that kind of life and do quite well.
The main issue in the long term with that kind of thing is having the talent and wherewithal to make your art practice something that can sustain you financially - then most of the language issues WRT the workplace disappear.
In terms of day-to-day life, you can more than get by without much French, but I wouldn't recommend it. The city is much smaller and much less interesting for non-French-speakers.
I would focus primarily on speaking and comprehension in French, by the way. Writing to a professional standard (or even the standard of a professional i.e., manager kind of person) will be a very difficult undertaking. In English high schools etc. you more or less quit with the grammar and such and move to studying literature and whatnot pretty early - in French schools, it's a constant thing, they study grammar and such all the way through to college. You can't really replicate that in a couple of part-time courses.
In my experience, gov't subsidized French programs are more of a myth than a reality. I'm sure they exist, but I've never seen or heard of anyone actually taking one. There are tons of language schools though, if you can afford it (though they're quite reasonable).
posted by mikel at 5:14 AM on December 8, 2009
On the question of whether you'd be able to stick around and make it work during and after - overall it really depends on your comfort with living a bohemian lifestyle - working odd jobs, freelancing at a bunch of different things, being relatively unrooted professionally but able to sustain an art practice regardless. If that sounds OK to you - well there are thousands of people who live that kind of life and do quite well.
The main issue in the long term with that kind of thing is having the talent and wherewithal to make your art practice something that can sustain you financially - then most of the language issues WRT the workplace disappear.
In terms of day-to-day life, you can more than get by without much French, but I wouldn't recommend it. The city is much smaller and much less interesting for non-French-speakers.
I would focus primarily on speaking and comprehension in French, by the way. Writing to a professional standard (or even the standard of a professional i.e., manager kind of person) will be a very difficult undertaking. In English high schools etc. you more or less quit with the grammar and such and move to studying literature and whatnot pretty early - in French schools, it's a constant thing, they study grammar and such all the way through to college. You can't really replicate that in a couple of part-time courses.
In my experience, gov't subsidized French programs are more of a myth than a reality. I'm sure they exist, but I've never seen or heard of anyone actually taking one. There are tons of language schools though, if you can afford it (though they're quite reasonable).
posted by mikel at 5:14 AM on December 8, 2009
Some good advice here, but I have to add one thing: Do not go to grad school for any other reason than because you want to pursue that specific area of interest.
posted by futureisunwritten at 7:11 AM on December 8, 2009
posted by futureisunwritten at 7:11 AM on December 8, 2009
Hi there. I'm an American living in Montreal. I originally came for my undergrad, and for some reason, keep staying on. I have a 9 to 5 job in the software sector, and yes I'm fluent in French, and yes that helps a lot.
I agree with some of the earlier posters that grad school might be the best way in. McGill has a decent English department but has a reputation for being stodgy. Grad school is likely also one of the few ways that you can exist in this city without a wink of French, which is both good and bad. Though ostensibly if you're studying you're going to be very busy and the odds are against you having tons of time to devote to your projects.
In the neighbourhoods that you are likely to navigate as an anglo bohemian-type, everyone will be able to speak English. I don't know how much not speaking French would even handicap you on the visa application, since I keep hearing stories of French requirements being lowered for different classes of applicants. The MICC - Ministère de l'immigration et des communautés culturels - guys who run QC immigrations - have a test you can take online to see how many points you would have, so you should take that instead of using third party lists.
I wouldn't worry about the French classes. Sure, it's wonderful if you can nab a spot at a free class, but it's not like French education is hard to come by here. You can find a relatively inexpensive class at any community centre in town. And the Province-offered French classes are supposed to be very vocational in nature anyway.
Out of curiosity, what motivates you to choose Montreal specifically? Because I have this sense that lots of people seem to consider this a sort of bohemian mecca, where in real life this city is really a midsized North American post-industrial town, poorer than most of them, and just happens to have two languages... I mean look, I love it here, and I don't plan on leaving soon. But the pleasures I found here have little to do with what the tour books list, and this sure as hell isn't "Paris of the North"...
posted by cinoyter at 5:59 PM on December 12, 2009
I agree with some of the earlier posters that grad school might be the best way in. McGill has a decent English department but has a reputation for being stodgy. Grad school is likely also one of the few ways that you can exist in this city without a wink of French, which is both good and bad. Though ostensibly if you're studying you're going to be very busy and the odds are against you having tons of time to devote to your projects.
In the neighbourhoods that you are likely to navigate as an anglo bohemian-type, everyone will be able to speak English. I don't know how much not speaking French would even handicap you on the visa application, since I keep hearing stories of French requirements being lowered for different classes of applicants. The MICC - Ministère de l'immigration et des communautés culturels - guys who run QC immigrations - have a test you can take online to see how many points you would have, so you should take that instead of using third party lists.
I wouldn't worry about the French classes. Sure, it's wonderful if you can nab a spot at a free class, but it's not like French education is hard to come by here. You can find a relatively inexpensive class at any community centre in town. And the Province-offered French classes are supposed to be very vocational in nature anyway.
Out of curiosity, what motivates you to choose Montreal specifically? Because I have this sense that lots of people seem to consider this a sort of bohemian mecca, where in real life this city is really a midsized North American post-industrial town, poorer than most of them, and just happens to have two languages... I mean look, I love it here, and I don't plan on leaving soon. But the pleasures I found here have little to do with what the tour books list, and this sure as hell isn't "Paris of the North"...
posted by cinoyter at 5:59 PM on December 12, 2009
A bit off-topic (and late), but free French classes do exist...for Canadians, specifically post-secondary students. http://www.myexplore.ca/en/. Not useful in this situation, admittedly, but worth noting for Canadians wanting to improve their French.
posted by nicoleincanada at 6:09 AM on January 18, 2010
posted by nicoleincanada at 6:09 AM on January 18, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
I would say, right off, that you have to understand that the market for English writing in Montreal is small and is already well saturated with willing writers. If you already have some markets and can work from a distance, you're better off.
If you do not know French now, do not expect to be able to write to literary or journalistic standards for some time.
Here is some immigration stuff which might help explain things. Quebec has its own rules superimposed on Canada's rules which makes it more difficult to come here than to the rest of Canada, and being able to speak French is pretty key. Basically, there are not many jobs for people who can't get by in French.
I don't mean to be negative, but read that page and poke around in the government immigration site for more information. Of course if you have a huge nest egg or recent Canadian ancestry you might be in a better position.
posted by zadcat at 6:41 PM on December 7, 2009