Propane, propane products and fireplace inserts.
November 10, 2009 5:14 PM
We have a normal fireplace in our 1968 rambler that has never been used. We would like to put in a gas fireplace insert, but it would cost about $1200 to have a gas line installed (we use natural gas to heat our home). The fireplace has a small door in the rear for cleaning--is it possible to install a propane-fueled artificial fireplace log?
Could we convert an existing insert? The fireplace would not be used intensively.
Could we convert an existing insert? The fireplace would not be used intensively.
Read all of this before you go ahead with any of it.
Let me take a moment to parse, in reverse, the segments of your question. "Could we convert an existing insert?" I am assuming that this is more of a general than a specific question and you do not have an existing insert. If that is the case, then Kwine's response that they come in both gas and propane versions should answer your question.
"The fireplace has a small door in the rear for cleaning--is it possible to install a propane-fueled artificial fireplace log?" Is this door on the outside of the house? If so, it is probably down near ground level and made of cast iron. The two problems you face are penetrating the door in a manner that neither disables it (making it unusable for its intended purpose) nor leaves gaps around the hole you create that allows outside air to seep in when you are not using the fireplace (making the room drafty). You can only satisfy one of these issues. Most old cast iron ash cleanout doors are held on by a cotter pin through each hinge. If this is the case with yours, I suggest that you remove the pins and the door and take it to someone who can drill a hole through it without breaking it. This is what you want to do before you go there. Install your propane fueled insert and plumb it with Black Pipe all the way to and at least six inches through the opening in the ash cleanout door. Measure how far the pipe is from the side and from the bottom of the opening. Measure how big the opening is. Take those measurements and the pipe to the hole-drilling guy and explain the following. The cover is (probably) bigger than the opening. Here are the measurements of the opening and here are the measurements of where the pipe comes out of the opening. He is to measure the same point in the cover and drill a hole that is a slip fit for the pipe to go through. Assuming he succeeds at this, take the pipe and the cover home. Install the pipe and then slip the cover over it and reinsert the cotter pins.. You should then be looking at a pipe sticking out of the wall (so to speak) waiting to be connected to propane.
This is where it gets interesting. If you have a narrow suburban side yard there is no safe place to put a propane tank. If you are thinking about that little tank that attaches to your BBQ, think also that you will be standing next to it at the BBQ when something bad happens. That is not the case with a tank that you put in your side yard and forget. You don't want to first find out that there is a problem when you hear the sirens. What you need to do is contact your local propane supplier. They will most likely be willing to come out to the house and advise you about tank placement and safety precautions. If they can figure out where to place an adequate tank, hire a plumber to check your insert plumbing and to plumb back to the tank location. It won't be cheap, but it will cost less than rebuilding after the fire.
Now, looking at what you should do to install a jury-rig propane setup, how bad is that $1200 charge for integrating the insert into the existing fuel-gas system? Only you can decide.
posted by Old Geezer at 8:13 PM on November 10, 2009
Let me take a moment to parse, in reverse, the segments of your question. "Could we convert an existing insert?" I am assuming that this is more of a general than a specific question and you do not have an existing insert. If that is the case, then Kwine's response that they come in both gas and propane versions should answer your question.
"The fireplace has a small door in the rear for cleaning--is it possible to install a propane-fueled artificial fireplace log?" Is this door on the outside of the house? If so, it is probably down near ground level and made of cast iron. The two problems you face are penetrating the door in a manner that neither disables it (making it unusable for its intended purpose) nor leaves gaps around the hole you create that allows outside air to seep in when you are not using the fireplace (making the room drafty). You can only satisfy one of these issues. Most old cast iron ash cleanout doors are held on by a cotter pin through each hinge. If this is the case with yours, I suggest that you remove the pins and the door and take it to someone who can drill a hole through it without breaking it. This is what you want to do before you go there. Install your propane fueled insert and plumb it with Black Pipe all the way to and at least six inches through the opening in the ash cleanout door. Measure how far the pipe is from the side and from the bottom of the opening. Measure how big the opening is. Take those measurements and the pipe to the hole-drilling guy and explain the following. The cover is (probably) bigger than the opening. Here are the measurements of the opening and here are the measurements of where the pipe comes out of the opening. He is to measure the same point in the cover and drill a hole that is a slip fit for the pipe to go through. Assuming he succeeds at this, take the pipe and the cover home. Install the pipe and then slip the cover over it and reinsert the cotter pins.. You should then be looking at a pipe sticking out of the wall (so to speak) waiting to be connected to propane.
This is where it gets interesting. If you have a narrow suburban side yard there is no safe place to put a propane tank. If you are thinking about that little tank that attaches to your BBQ, think also that you will be standing next to it at the BBQ when something bad happens. That is not the case with a tank that you put in your side yard and forget. You don't want to first find out that there is a problem when you hear the sirens. What you need to do is contact your local propane supplier. They will most likely be willing to come out to the house and advise you about tank placement and safety precautions. If they can figure out where to place an adequate tank, hire a plumber to check your insert plumbing and to plumb back to the tank location. It won't be cheap, but it will cost less than rebuilding after the fire.
Now, looking at what you should do to install a jury-rig propane setup, how bad is that $1200 charge for integrating the insert into the existing fuel-gas system? Only you can decide.
posted by Old Geezer at 8:13 PM on November 10, 2009
What is your aversion to burning wood? Get the chimney inspected,
start small, maybe get some glass doors for the fireplace to prevent tramp air
from stealing all your heat.
posted by the Real Dan at 8:24 PM on November 10, 2009
start small, maybe get some glass doors for the fireplace to prevent tramp air
from stealing all your heat.
posted by the Real Dan at 8:24 PM on November 10, 2009
My spouse has an aversion to getting soot all over the fireplace in the event that some day we can afford to put in a gas fireplace.
The propane tank would sit in a protected corner of an open car port.
posted by mecran01 at 8:30 PM on November 10, 2009
The propane tank would sit in a protected corner of an open car port.
posted by mecran01 at 8:30 PM on November 10, 2009
I'm going to leave it up to the propane company to advise you, but I would not put any propane tank closer than 10 feet from the house. Even a little ten gallon tank has a lot of fire power.
I second your wife's desire not to have soot around if you can avoid it. I have breathing problems and when the soot blows back from the fireplace you can see any residue, but my lungs say otherwise.
Good luck.
posted by Old Geezer at 9:15 PM on November 10, 2009
I second your wife's desire not to have soot around if you can avoid it. I have breathing problems and when the soot blows back from the fireplace you can see any residue, but my lungs say otherwise.
Good luck.
posted by Old Geezer at 9:15 PM on November 10, 2009
We may just use those low-soot enviro-logs that produce less soot.
The bigger picture is that we are reading "The Two-Income Trap" and are realizing there are some things our parents had that we will never have, and so we are looking for alternatives.
posted by mecran01 at 9:41 PM on November 10, 2009
The bigger picture is that we are reading "The Two-Income Trap" and are realizing there are some things our parents had that we will never have, and so we are looking for alternatives.
posted by mecran01 at 9:41 PM on November 10, 2009
I'm confident that you could have a propane fueled gas log safely installed for significantly less than $1200 including the cost for a new log set, unless you have some sort of special circumstance. But Old Geezer's worries are good ones to keep in mind; a professional plumber is your friend in this circumstance, and I advise against attempting an installation yourself.
posted by Kwine at 11:44 PM on November 10, 2009
posted by Kwine at 11:44 PM on November 10, 2009
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This thread is closed to new comments.
"is it possible to install a propane-fueled artificial fireplace log?"
Yes. Almost any gas log insert comes in natural gas and propane versions. Sometimes the cost is the same, sometimes the propane is a little more.
"Could we convert an existing insert?"
It depends. Some inserts have entirely different burners for natural gas than they do for propane; those would not be convertible. Some inserts have the same burner, but ship with a propane "kit"; in that case it would be possible to buy just the kit-you're looking at 50-60 bucks for most of the models that I know. Can you figure out your manufacturer and model?
I won't be so uncouth as to link our site here, but if you're interested in talking to somebody on our expert sales staff, send me a MeMail.
posted by Kwine at 6:06 PM on November 10, 2009