Can I phone-verify and employee's doctor appointment?

October 28, 2009 5:36 AM

Can I, as a supervisor, call an employee's doctor to verify that said employee was actually seen on a certain date?

It was mentioned to this employee that his number of unexcused absences was starting to creep up, though not enough to trigger any disciplinary action. Just a heads-up. So the next day he provides doctor's notes for all his previously unexcused absences, the earliest of which was in July. All these notes are dated the same day- October 22.

The weird thing is that there were two absences on consecutive days, and he brought a separate note for each. I smell a rat, but I'm wary of a potential HIPAA violation.

So since the employee and his doctor have already provided this information, can I just call the office to verify that it's true? I couldn't care less about any diagnoses or treatments or anything- I just want to know if he was really there.

posted by Shohn to law & government (47 comments total)

This should be handled by HR.
posted by mpls2 at 5:41 AM on October 28, 2009 [1 favorite]

I'd be surprised if the doctor's office told you anything regarding a patient's appointment schedule.
posted by Hello, Revelers! I am Captain Lavender! at 5:46 AM on October 28, 2009 [5 favorites]

Why don't you just call the dr and ask if he wrote the notes? Leave aside anything having to do with your employee (other than he was the one that presented you with the notes).
posted by forforf at 5:53 AM on October 28, 2009

I can't advise on the legality of anything, but I'd try (or have HR) call the doctors office. Tell them that you have an employee whose provided X number of notes and you'd like to verify their authenticity, could you fax them over and have the doctor confirm their legitimacy?

While I think the doctors office (depending on how closely they follow guidelines) would probably not even confirm that the employee was a patient, they are pretty sensitive to any type of fraud involving a physicians name.
posted by syntheticfaith at 5:58 AM on October 28, 2009 [2 favorites]

I don't see why any doctor who writes a note for an employer would then refuse to confirm the note's authenticity to that employer.

What would be the point?
posted by OilPull at 6:09 AM on October 28, 2009 [2 favorites]

You don't say what state you are in. Everywhere I've been, the law is friendly to employers as far as being able to discipline or dismiss someone for missing work, no matter what the reason. At the same time it is often very unfriendly about prying into their medical anything. So I'd say leave well enough alone, as I sense your spider sense is telling you to.
posted by Bokononist at 6:10 AM on October 28, 2009 [1 favorite]

Ethics aside, you can try to call the doctor. Whether they provide any information is another story. If the number of unexcused absences was not enough to trigger any disciplinary action, I fail to see why you are investigating this.
posted by JJ86 at 6:12 AM on October 28, 2009 [2 favorites]

Without commenting on the HIPAA implications (or state privacy law) and without knowing what he was sick with, I'd just say that in my life it has not been uncommon to go to the doctor (or two different ones) two days in a row for the same illness.
posted by Pax at 6:15 AM on October 28, 2009 [2 favorites]

It sounds to me like the employee got the heads-up, and decided to cover his butt by going back to the doctor and getting notes for all the times he'd been sick. I know that I never bother getting a doctor's note unless my employer specifically asks for one, but I could see myself doing what your employee did if I got the impression that my boss did not believe I was really sick, and that is the impression you're giving.

I'm with JJ86, I really don't see why you're contemplating invading his privacy for something that doesn't even warrant disciplinary action yet.
posted by weesha at 6:32 AM on October 28, 2009 [17 favorites]

So since the employee and his doctor have already provided this information, can I just call the office to verify that it's true? I couldn't care less about any diagnoses or treatments or anything- I just want to know if he was really there

If this isn't illegal, it's completely unethical. Would you want your boss calling to make sure you were at that doctor's after you provided notes? If you want to google the existence of the doctor, fine, whatever. But to go around calling a doctor's office, that's completely over the line.

This is no way to treat an employee. You got support for his unexcused absences. Also, it seems like the issue is that you don't trust the employee and, if that's the case, rather than sleuthing stuff out, just get rid of him. But calling a doctor's office is completely obnoxious.
posted by anniecat at 6:38 AM on October 28, 2009 [23 favorites]

I don't know about the legal issue, but I certainly would lose any respect for any supervisor who called my doctor to verify notes I'd turned in to explain absences.

Treat your employees like adults. If they're acting unethically, they'll trip themselves up on something more obvious than doctors' notes in the future.
posted by xingcat at 6:47 AM on October 28, 2009 [7 favorites]

Why don't you just call the doctor's office and explain that your employee gave you doctor's notes with that doctor's name on them, and you'd like to verify that the practice actually issued the notes. Ask them what, if anything, they can verify and what is considered confidential.
posted by Meg_Murry at 6:50 AM on October 28, 2009

If I found out that my employer called my doctor to verify my notes, I'd start looking for a new job right away.
posted by sid at 6:50 AM on October 28, 2009 [7 favorites]

I think the OP thinks the Dr wrote the notes, at an appointment on Oct 22nd, stating the patient was sick on each of the previous days regardless of whether the Dr actually saw the patient during the past sick days. I think Drs routinely write such notes because so many employers demand them (locally, there has been a push to ask employers to not ask for the notes to prevent walking-dead flu vectors from spreading the joy in Dr's waiting rooms getting notes instead of resting at home in isolation). I don't see how calling the Dr and getting confirmation of that fact will help you. If your conversation with the employee was AFTER Oct 22nd, then yeah, that is worth calling about because that does seem fraudulent.

A workplace I was at had a chronic problem with staff abusing the generous sick day policy and most people took at least two "mental health days" a month. Because some people got away with it most people started doing it (tragedy of the commons). A new administrator created the rule that sick days would not be paid unless he spoke personally with the person calling in sick at the time they called in. Absenteeism dropped dramatically. I sympathise with people with chronic illnesses but the others that flagrantly abuse sick days ruin it for the rest of us.
posted by saucysault at 6:52 AM on October 28, 2009

i would expect all the notes to have the same date--he called his doctor, and they whipped up a batch based on his appointments. if you suspect that they're bogus, call the dr's office and verify that 1 letter is from him. if 1's good, they probably all are.

don't feel bad about checking up on this person. if you're looking into this, it's most likely because there are other problems with this person. some work now might solve a bigger problem later. i agree with above about employee trust, but if you suspect that they are abusing it, you do need to follow up. this is a great opportunity.
posted by lester at 6:56 AM on October 28, 2009

Just as a data point, has it occurred to you that this employee might have some serious health problem that requires all these absences?

If my employer told me my absences were unexcused and I had a valid reason for them, like going to the doctor, I'd do just what he did and get the doctor to give me notes to verify. As for the two successive dates, they may have a policy at the dr.'s office that they use one note per day, so if he had two successive visits, they have to put them on two separate notes. Stranger things have happened.

Anyway, if you really have a problem with this employee's absenteeism, I would think you could sit him down and talk to him about his not meeting goals or getting his work done and address that straight on, rather than spending your own valuable time chasing down this avenue.
posted by misha at 6:59 AM on October 28, 2009 [2 favorites]

Would you have thought it was odd if you got one note covering all dates? Just something to think about...
posted by Geckwoistmeinauto at 7:05 AM on October 28, 2009

To cover your own butt, this does need to be turned over to HR. You can ask HR to verify the legitimacy of the notes, but if you do so, you open yourself up to a lot of resistance, politics and difficulty. If your employee caught wind that *you* attempted to verify the notes, regardless of the legitimacy of those notes, they *could* make it very difficult for you to do anything about it. If your supervisor caught wind that you attempted to do this, they might be concerned that you could violate your subborinate's rights and that could result in a corrective action for *you* instead of your employee.

While it might seem odd for a doctor's office to write a separate note for each day, if their verification process is day by day, it may be just as easy to print a separate note for each as opposed to one note with all dates listed.
posted by Nanukthedog at 7:19 AM on October 28, 2009

It sounds to me like if you don't call, you'll continue to be suspicious about this employee, which isn't good for the situation. If I were the employee and the absences were legitimate I think I would want you to verify them and then leave me alone.

(caveat: I'm not a lawyer or HR person, and I don't know if there's some legal reason why you can't call)
posted by monstrouspudding at 7:25 AM on October 28, 2009

At my workplace we have a couple of times faxed copies of doctor's notes to the doctor so they could confirm whether it was something they had written or if it had been tampered with. They never refused to do so. (This is in TN.) Ethically, I do not see how checking up on a doctor's note is any less respectful or more demeaning than requiring one to be written at all, rather than just taking the employee's word. The note is there for proof of a legitimate absence. If you can't verify the proof, what's the point?
posted by frobozz at 7:30 AM on October 28, 2009 [1 favorite]

Whether or not its illegal is another matter but I don't see how it can possibly be unethical or an invasion of privacy to confirm information already provided to you by the person whose privacy some people are suggesting would be invaded.

The employee has provided you with notes that give the name of his dr, the date of the appointment and presumably some information to identify the practice. You're only asking them to confirm what you've already been told. You're not snooping or asking for personal information about his medical condition.

I don't see any problem *ethically* in faxing them one of the notes and asking them to confirm that they issued it. Legally is a whole different story though
posted by missmagenta at 7:30 AM on October 28, 2009

You already said his absences weren't bad enough to warrant anything other than a heads-up, which you gave him. So if he hadn't given you any notes at all, you'd have considered the matter finished. Now that he brings notes, you're going to start snooping? Not fair. From now on if he misses days due to appointments I assume he'll bring individual notes, and if his absenteeism is still a problem, you should follow whatever company policy is in place for chronic illness.
posted by twistofrhyme at 7:59 AM on October 28, 2009 [4 favorites]

Question: if the doctor's note is not enough "proof" and it needs to be verified then why require it at all? Why not just call the employee's doctor whenever they call out sick to make sure? Maybe technically it's not illegal or unethical (IANAL...) but it does seem wrong, especially in this case where the the employee wasn't even asked for proof, they volunteered it.

I just know that I would not want my employer calling my doctor's office or otherwise intruding into my personal life unless they have my permission.
posted by weesha at 8:06 AM on October 28, 2009 [1 favorite]

I second the notion that your lack of trust/belief/whatever in what this employee does should be separated from the doctor's notes. Take it to HR, don't call the doctor.

If my supervisor called my doctor after I gave him signed doctor's notes, I would start looking for another job. If you feel this employee deserves an approach other than "innocent until proven guilty" then bring it up with him directly, or take it to HR.
posted by kenbennedy at 8:25 AM on October 28, 2009

When I was a paralegal at a workers' compensation firm (on the insurance carrier's side), and we scheduled appointments for or in conjunction with the injured employee and his representation, or when a hearing was postponed because the injured employee wanted to attend another appointment and get additional medical records, we would routinely call the doctors' offices to see whether they attended the appointments. They always told us. I often didn't need to go into who I was, where I was calling from, or why I wanted to know. But I had their name, SSN, and DOB, and I knew the date and time of the appointment.

Usually we'd call the day of or after, however. I don't know what they would have said if I'd called asking "did so-and-so attend an appointment 3 months ago."
posted by thebazilist at 8:26 AM on October 28, 2009

(in Texas)
posted by thebazilist at 8:28 AM on October 28, 2009

I'm sure this is something HR can legally do, but I wouldn't. You have the notes, and a Drs. signature, and you weren't contemplating disciplinary action previously. As long as this person is a good employee it seems like a waste of time to verify excuses given for unexcused absences on a Dr.'s stationary. Do the signature's all look the same but slightly different and messier progressively?

As for the back to back notes, was the actual note typed? The scheduling software probably has a feature that will print out an automatic note (or it's connected to Mail merge) and the person at the desk he talked to printed out the notes for the doctor to sign, using the software. It doesn't seem weird to me.

I think you are within your rights to call, but I also think it's pointless and will probably start some politics headache.
posted by itsonreserve at 9:25 AM on October 28, 2009

Why do you care?...

An employee has a set number of sick and vacation days, right? Anything beyond that the employee is paying for out of their own pocket. The issue should be whether or not work is getting done. The employee shouldn't even have to provide you with doctor's notes. They were either sick on their say so, or taking a personal day, in which case what they were doing is none of your business.

Also, what is an unexcused absence? Did your employee not tell you he was sick? Did he not call in or something? That's a different issue entirely. On the other hand, if you are requiring a doctor's notes for sick days than you have very little respect for your workers. Just get off this track entirely and focus on your employee's productivity.
posted by xammerboy at 9:33 AM on October 28, 2009 [5 favorites]

If the employee was sick, would that have made the absense excused? If it wouldn't excuse the previously unexcused absense, then what difference will it make to your ability to do something about the employee's poor habits whether or not the notes are legit?

I would say not to call. Doctor's notes are rediculous in the first place - health is a private matter and I don't need to tell you that I'm going in for my colonoscopy today.

What you can do is tell the employee "Thanks for providing these notes. In the future, would you be able to contact me the day you are out to let me know you are going to the doctor, so mysterious absenses don't build up for months?"
posted by WeekendJen at 9:52 AM on October 28, 2009

The weird thing is that there were two absences on consecutive days, and he brought a separate note for each. I smell a rat

That this would be suspicious at all is mind-bogglingly crazy to me.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:02 AM on October 28, 2009 [1 favorite]

It sounds like your suspicions are based on two things: the same date on all the notes, and the fact he saw a doctor two days in a row. Both of these things have very obvious and legitimate possible explanations, so just let it go. Most people have enough going on at work to keep them busy without looking for trouble where it likely doesn't exist. You are either bored at work or don't like this guy. I vote leave him alone (and be a little more understanding; he could be dealing with serious illness or at the very least he's sick often, and now his boss is on his back about doctor's notes and he's probably worried about his job, so things aren't really going his way right now).
posted by JenMarie at 10:35 AM on October 28, 2009

From what you've described, there doesn't seem to be any real payoff on checking in on this. I'd move on and just keep an eye on things in the future; if you don't have a policy regarding sick time and doctor's notes, now would be the time to implement one. For example, we're allowed five sick days a year excused, but any more than that and we're expected to provide documentation.
posted by azpenguin at 10:46 AM on October 28, 2009

I should have clarified, re: the notes from two days in a row, that the note for the 27th released him to come back to work on the 28th, and then there was a note for the 27th which released him to come back to work on the 29th. Maybe I'm reading too much into that.

The stupid thing is that this guy isn't even my employee. I was asked to give my opinion on this case because I largely wrote the sick leave policy. My initial thinking was that there shouldn't be a problem with calling the Dr's office to verify the information on the notes, since it had ostensibly already been provided. You all have given me more food for thought, though.

I have asked an HR rep about this, and the answer I was given was: "Let me talk to my colleagues and get an opinion from Legal." They wouldn't probably care to pursue this though, because we're dealing with a departmental policy which is tighter (stricter, I guess) than the overall HR policy.

I think I'm largely convinced to leave well enough alone at this point, though. While I'd hate to think that someone had submitted fraudulent notes, it's probably not worth it in the grand scheme of things to hound this thing to death.

I really appreciate all the replies.
posted by Shohn at 10:57 AM on October 28, 2009

If you did this and were my boss, I'd report you and do pretty much anything in my power to get you fired. You don't get special powers over an employee's non-work life. Who do you think you are?

If the absences aren't enough to warrant disciplinary action to begin with, why are you risking your own job to go play Note Cop?
posted by spaltavian at 10:57 AM on October 28, 2009 [2 favorites]

I would consider this to be an invasion of privacy, and most likely a HIPAA violation if the office did in fact release any information.

We're not even allowed to say whether or not "$WHOEVER" is in the back of our ambulance when asked directly. Policy dictates that it's a violation of patient confidentiality. Hospitals can flat out deny that you're even a patient if asked.

My thoughts would be "No, you can't - and you probably shouldn't."

I see that you asked Legal about it. Sometimes there's a very thin line between what is legal and what is ethical. I would caution you against crossing that line.
posted by drstein at 1:27 PM on October 28, 2009

My job gives me the opportunity to review a ton of doctors' notes. The people who mentioned that the doctor wrote all of the notes in one go are correct. This is why they all have the same date. As for the note releasing the employee to return to work on the 28 and then also on the 29th, that is absolutely the kind of mistake a doctor's office would make when cranking out a pile of off work excuses all at once.

thebazilist's situation is different than this one, because when there is a workers' comp claim involved, the records are either under subpoena, or there's a preexisting arrangement between the treatment provider and the insurance company to share records and treatment notes relating to the claimed injury.

As a union steward, if a supervisor did this to one of my members, I would make a huge stink about it. I would also make sure that this employee is well aware of his FMLA rights.
posted by jennyb at 3:54 PM on October 28, 2009 [1 favorite]

The employee had some "unexcused" absences and was asked for an explanation. They provided an explanation, and supporting documentation. Case closed. Absences excused. That's all there is to it. What more could they possibly have done?
posted by Philby at 5:34 PM on October 28, 2009

A question to the people who say that any contact with the doctor is unethical: What other recourse does the employer have against fraud in this case? Is there, under HIPAA, no way to verify the veracity of doctor's notes? Could anyone just forge notes willy-nilly and have impunity?
posted by that girl at 8:00 PM on October 28, 2009 [1 favorite]

Could anyone just forge notes willy-nilly and have impunity?

Yeah. Or rewrite the company policy to say there are 14 days of sick leave available, but more can be had if a doctor's note is provided.

The employer has plenty of ways to get rid of the employee. It's called firing an employee for any reason at all, which is legal. And they could just make up the reason, like "Work quality does not meet expectations." The employee might want to sue for unfair dismissal but it will probably be expensive to hire a lawyer and it will be impossible to make up a doctor's note.

But going all Big Brother is just beyond ridiculous. If you can't think of any way to solve the problem without making a bigger problem out of it, then you really aren't thinking or your company HR and legal aren't doing their jobs.
posted by anniecat at 4:43 AM on October 29, 2009

My wife read through this last night, and brought to my attention that some clarification is needed. The issue here is that the employee is suspected of somehow faking the doctor's notes. That's what we want to verify. If they're legitimate notes from a doctor's office, then that's good enough. I didn't want to necessarily verify that he was sick, or was in the doctor's office on those days. Just that the notes were real. That's all.

Like I said above, though, you all have convinced me to leave well enough alone, and that's the advice that I'll give to those who are more closely connected to the situation. If HR wants to do something, then that's up to them.

Thanks to all of you. Especially those of you who questioned my motives and my sanity. That's a good reality check sometimes.
posted by Shohn at 5:22 AM on October 29, 2009

True story:

I have a hearing condition in my right ear (primarily) - have had it since I was a kid, its called hyperacusis and I've written about it round these parts a few times.

When I was in my early twenties, I had been exploring a number of treatments with the best audiologists I could find, including medications, evaluating investigatory surgery (didn't, thank God), and creating specialized hearing devices that would limit the amount of decibels entering my ear. Naturally, this meant a number of doctor appointments. All for something relatively minor and mostly just annoying - I honestly couldn't imagine what it would be like for a person to have to do the same for something chronic.

These doctors appointments meant missing work. Which was fine for my boss, who was an awesome - my first boss in NYC, my first gay boss (I'm not sure why they're so good to work for but they always are), and my first boss with a name from Sesame Street, which I enjoyed immensely. It was *his* boss, my boss' boss, who was an asshole.

I'll call this dude Greg. Greg was an uptight asshole and for whatever unjustified reason had decided he didn't like me. Which meant, come promotion time, I got passed over, even though I was up for it. My boss, in my review, confessed to me that he had gone to bat on my behalf but just hit a wall. He said he couldn't say much more than that, and I would have to figure out what I was going to do. He was dropping hints that I should look for a transfer out of Greg's division if I wanted to move up - we both knew I was ready for the promotion but Greg would never give it in his division.

So I put in for the transfer. Greg would let it "get lost on his desk" or "with HR" or what-have-you. It became apparent after not so long that he was intentionally delaying, so I went to HR. HR told me that Greg had told them that he couldn't afford to lose me right now for important business purposes as his team was already thinly stretched (all BS). At the end of the day HR sided with Greg, essentially. I was F'd, but this was a good company with good options and I knew that if I could just get out from under Greg, I could really go places.

I spent maybe a few weeks kind of spinning my wheels on what to do about it, my boss with his hands tied and Greg now making snide comments about why I was still working for him if I didn't want to be there, shit like that. Trying to goad me into quitting, I suppose.

Then one Friday afternoon, when my boss had approved for me to leave one hour early to make it to a late doctor's appointment, Greg made a fatal error. He stopped by my cube, and made a couple of comments about how I had missed a good deal of work for these "doctor's appointments" I kept having and how it looked to be "affecting my job performance." He said he wanted to have a talk with me and HR about it on Monday. He was effectively questioning the legitimacy of my absences.

Big, big mistake, Greg.

The next Monday morning, I showed up butt-ass early at the office and typed up a letter to Greg and HR, cc'ing my boss and Greg's, that looked something like this (boy do I wish I still had that letter):

Greg -

I am concerned that you seem to think my excused absences from the office for medical reasons related to my disability have been effecting my job performance, and I would like to address this issue as soon as possible with both yourself and HR. As you might not be aware, I would like you to first know that Ernie (my boss) has approved, over email, all of my missed time for doctors appointments to treat this disability (see attached).

Additionally, I would like you to have the contact information for each of the doctor's offices that I have been to in each instance outlined above:

1. Doctor Jane Smith, phone #, date of appointment, time of appointment.
2. Doctor John Doe, phone #, date of appointment, time of appointment.
3. Etc.

Last, I have done a brief tabulation of the exact amount of time that I have missed in the office due to my disability and the related treatment I have been seeking. In total, you will find that for the 4 appointments in this calendar year so far, I have missed a total of 12 hours in the office. I would like to suggest that if we feel I need to make this time up in the office - I can do so by forgoing the first 3 weeks of our "Early Friday Summer Hours" starting next month, or by staying an hour late each day beginning immediately - whichever you would prefer.

I value my position here and want to ensure that my disability doesn't interfere with my drive to provide the results you are looking for.

Thanks,

David

---

Did you notice what the key word in that letter was? I didn't have to bold it for Greg. I emailed the letter to him, his boss, my boss, HR, and left a printed copy on his desk.

The meeting with HR never happened and Greg never said another word to me. I had a transfer to a promoted position approved and on my desk exactly one week later.

Ernie (my former boss) sent me an email my first day in the new department. It was 2 words: "Nicely done."
posted by allkindsoftime at 8:36 AM on October 29, 2009 [4 favorites]

And yes, before anyone with a debilitating, life-altering disability go to town on me - my disability is nothing compared to the more serious ones, its a minor one that I can live with, but it is a legitimate one that has disqualified me from being eligible for certain jobs, so I wasn't stretching the truth with Greg. The point is, it wasn't any of his damn business. If he wanted to check with my doctors, fine, check. But watch your sweet ass when it comes to a HIPAA violation, my friend.
posted by allkindsoftime at 8:43 AM on October 29, 2009

Thanks for that story, allkindsoftime. And that was nicely done.

But watch your sweet ass when it comes to a HIPAA violation, my friend

A HIPAA violations is exactly what I'm trying to avoid here, and the whole reason I asked.

Interestingly, as I understand the new FMLA regulations, employers can make more pointed and specific inquiries to an employee's medical provider, if the employee is in experiencing an FMLA event. When it comes to run-of-the-mill illnesses, though, there's no such provision.
posted by Shohn at 9:29 AM on October 29, 2009

It's been about a week, so you've probably resolved this, but just FYI:

Unless there's much, much more to the story than what you've described, there is no way you could have possibly committed a HIPAA violation. This is because you, the employer, are not a HIPAA-covered entity. "Covered entities" include most (but not all) health care providers; health care information clearinghouses; and health plans (including insurance companies). Even if your company is one of the above, in this situation you would have been functioning as the employer, not the health plan, health provider, and/or information clearinghouse. If you are not a covered entity, you are not bound to the provisions of HIPAA. Thus, there is no way you can commit a HIPAA violation in this instance.

There are a few very specific situations in which a HIPAA violation by the employer may be possible (although, it would more likely be an ERISA violation, not a HIPAA violation), but I doubt they apply to you. If you have doubts, memail me, but like I said before, I'm guessing you've resolved this!
posted by pecanpies at 3:04 PM on November 5, 2009

Also, regarding your comment about FMLA -

Treat very carefully there. It is true that employers can now contact the healthproviders directly to obtain clarification regarding the certification form. They can only do this, however, with the employee's permission and after they have given the employee at least 7 days to resolve any discrepancies or deficiencies within the certification. They do not have free rein to directly contact providers regarding an employee's medical condition.
posted by pecanpies at 3:07 PM on November 5, 2009

Er..."tread very carefully." Darn my post-Halloween candy hangover! Makes for funny typos, though.
posted by pecanpies at 3:08 PM on November 5, 2009

Last comment, I swear -

Allkindsoftime's story has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with HIPAA. His employer most likely thought he was insinuating that they were violating the Americans with Disabilities Act
(ADA) and/or FMLA. Again, it's not HIPAA you need to be worried about.
posted by pecanpies at 3:10 PM on November 5, 2009