Are PhD students responsible for a lot of general lab work (4 out of 5 days of work)?

October 7, 2009 6:09 PM

My girlfriend is a PhD student and is wondering how much general lab work (not related to research) is normal for a student (not a lab employee). Her PI does not pay her anything, all her income (stipend, lab expenses) come from other sources like grants. She is not paid extra for doing the general lab work.

Her stipend is about half of the cheapest employee her PI can hire, the entire lab is made up of employees (she is the only student).

Is this a normal situation for PhD students in a lab setting?

The work is cutting into her research, which may delay her graduation. Should she risk confrontation with her PI or just deal with it? Her PI is known for being difficult to talk to and deal with.

posted by mallow005 to work & money (28 comments total)

Needs more detail. 'General lab work' might be cell culture, preparing chemicals, or something else that's a communal activity, in which case it might be reasonable. If it's wholly unrelated to her research (e.g. rat cage cleaning when she only does cell culture) then yes, 4/5 days is too much. Surveying other students at the same institution is probably the best approach - do they have a grad student's union?
posted by benzenedream at 6:28 PM on October 7

Which country, which field?
posted by mr_roboto at 6:33 PM on October 7

It's unclear what you mean by "general lab work". What is and is not reasonable work for graduate students can vary significantly between different fields. In general it's pretty reasonable to expect graduate students to contribute to the general upkeep of a lab or facility, even though it seems "unrelated" and can cut into the time a student would rather spend on other things.

I think bringing the money into this is a mistake. She should not be paid extra, since that would essentially be double-dipping with the stipend. Her stipend is in all likeliness not set by the PI, and so I don't know why that would factor into to the grievance.
posted by kiltedtaco at 6:38 PM on October 7

USA, CA - Biomedical Engineering. She doesn't want to say which university because she is afraid of the internet.

The work is in no way related to her research, it is work related to work contracted to her PI. That means she won't get recognized in any papers for it.
posted by mallow005 at 6:39 PM on October 7

Where is she? In the US grad students are normally employed as research or teaching assistants. If she has a half time assistantship she owes her employer 20 hours of work a week. That work is most often thesis related work but doesn't need to be.

That said, most advisors are conscious of the pressures on a grad student and try not to overload them with non thesis research. I suspect her advisor is so used to working with post docs and technicians s/he isn't paying enough attention to the need for a thesis. I would talk to the advisor but frame it positively. I want to get my research done but these other projects get in the way.

Don't bring up the poor pay sob story. Grad stipends are fixed by higher powers than the PI and when you add in tuition expenses the deal isn't so bad.
posted by Fiery Jack at 6:40 PM on October 7

Phd students are cheap labor. The stipend is typically half of what a tech makes. This will depend to a certain degree upon the country you are in.
As for lab related work - this will depend upon whether they are 'common' lab duties that are shared between most lab members - pretty much like benzenedream says.
Maybe the best way to discuss with supervisor would be to direct the conversation toward the goals of the current project that your gf is working on and then set timelines for these goals. When this is established suggest that your current general lab duties load will intefere with achieving these goals in a timely fashion.
posted by SueDenim at 6:47 PM on October 7

The issue here is: 'work related to work contracted to her PI'


So, she is doing research on a project that will not help her graduate or publish, but will help her PI.

This is a very sticky subject.

It depends a lot on her status (how hard was she pursued to be a PhD candidate?), her relationship to her PI, and her PI's reputation.

I need more info.
posted by joemax at 6:48 PM on October 7

just read your latest post.
She should speak to one of her phd commitee members asap about this if she is performing contract work for which she will not be credited or paid.
posted by SueDenim at 6:50 PM on October 7 [1 favorite has favorites]

OK, well, while I agree that more details are needed (what, exactly, is the "general lab work"? is it publishable research or just maintenance?), I'm going to go ahead and say that this seems highly unusual. A Ph.D. student should be spending the vast majority of their time working on their thesis.

Also, you say that she's paying for her own stipend and "lab expenses" out of grants. Are these grants she obtained? If they are, and they're not tied to the PI's work, she should just bail. Find a better lab. It's bizarre that she's paying for her own materials and supplies, if that's what you mean by "lab expenses".
posted by mr_roboto at 6:54 PM on October 7

Oh, I just read the "contract" part, too. This seems pretty fucked up.
posted by mr_roboto at 6:55 PM on October 7

Phd students are cheap labor

Only if some third party is paying tuition, or if tuition is waived due to a TA or similar agreement. If the PI is paying for the student outright, stipend plus tuition and benefits ends up more expensive than a technician.
posted by rxrfrx at 7:02 PM on October 7

I don't think this is necessarily 'fucked up'

Even if it's not publishable, personal relationships are big, and work load is presumed to be infinite most of the time.

She needs to judge what she will get out of doing this work.

The big questions we need answered are:

does she have any pubs already out of this lab?

does she have any funding obtained by her?

is this a PI of questionable status? (tenured? funded? for how long? in her project area?)

If this PI only has one grad student and no others, and no postdocs, it seems the PI is of low status. Is she helping this PI get Made, that would help your gf, but is she being used for slave labor she needs to consider her other options.
posted by joemax at 7:02 PM on October 7 [1 favorite has favorites]

* I meant 'if' she is helping a new faculty.

Then that would help her.

If this is a dying PI, she needs to GTFO.
posted by joemax at 7:04 PM on October 7

I spent three years working in a cancer research lab on my university campus. The grad students in my lab never did any experiments that were not directly related to publishing their papers (other than the random "hey can you split my cells tomorrow while I'm gone tomorrow at xyz conference?"). Never once in my three years in the lab did I witness a grad student doing an experiment for another (or for the PI, etc). This is only my experience though, so YMMV.
posted by kthxbi at 7:05 PM on October 7

As a grad student and in my experience talking to others, usually you are paid through a grant. Nonetheless it's your prof's grant.

If you're doing a Ph.D. you should be focusing much more than 2-3 days a week on your research projects, but if you are part of a collaborative effort or a big lab you might have to take on lab responsibilities like maintaining tools or cleaning supplies (of if you're in a small lab with users you might have to do a lot of that work ).

She should ask around, and if she's unhappy, she definitely needs to talk with her PI about it, esp if it's unreasonable expectation.

She could have a bad advisor- if she's the only student in the group maybe there is a reason why... There should be a standard pay rate for graduate students as well at her uni.
posted by Large Marge at 7:06 PM on October 7

You don't mention what year of her degree she's in, but if she's not close to finishing and feels like she's being taken advantage of - and, more importantly, if she doesn't trust her PI enough to talk to him about it - then she should seriously consider switching groups. This is especially true if she has her own funding that she can carry away with her. A PI will have more impact on her life and career than just about anyone else, and having someone that's on her side is the most important thing.
posted by you're a kitty! at 7:27 PM on October 7

Is she new to the lab? Since training someone new involves a huge amount of effort on the part of those currently in the lab, sometimes there is an effort to get back some of that investment by having the person do some scut work. There are amounts of scut work that are acceptable and there are amounts that are not. I can't tell from what you've described here if her situation crosses that line.

That said, your girlfriend's job is to do research to get her PhD. Her PIs job is to get people in his lab to do work to further his career. You can see where these things clash a bit.

There are fields that require a huge amount of scut work and thus everyone has to contribute to this effort. Depending on her area of interest, and the degree of competitiveness of the lab, she may be looking at spending 12+ hours a day in lab 6-7 days a week. Getting a PhD in the sciences can be hard.

As a graduate student you're paid poorly. That said if you were getting an MBA, you'd be paying for it, and if you were in the humanities you'd be being paid even more poorly than in the sciences. Yes, it isn't fun, but that's how it works. One of the conditions of getting the fancy grant money is that you're not allowed to hold outside jobs without permission. The money question is definitely a red herring. She's not supposed to get extra cash for doing things she feels are outside of her research project.

If her PI is unused to students, he may need to be reminded that she is not a tech and that she needs to get on a thesis project and soon. This is what her committee is for. This is also what rotations were for. Did she do rotations? Did this issue not come up during rotations? What do her coworkers think about this? Has this guy ever had a student? Has this guy ever graduated a student?

I hope she gets things resolved and goes on to do some good science. As someone who joined a lab with only one other grad student, I know it can be difficult when everyone else is in a different career area than you are. I had to constantly fight with my boss when I had to go to classes or study for exams - he thought I should skip all my classes and tried to refuse to let me take time off for my preliminary exams.
posted by sciencegeek at 7:29 PM on October 7

This question is too unclear to answer:
Are you talking about general lab work (all the stuff that everyone in a lab is expected to muck in with to keep the lab going) or specific work on a project entirely unrelated to her own? It seems like one thing in the question and the other in your follow-up comment.
What do you mean "other sources, like grants"? Your girlfriend has been awarded grants, plural, as a grad student? Do you mean scholarships? Grants awarded to somebody else, not her PI? There is no way she is not taking advantage of facilities provided by the PI's own funding, even if her salary and some expenses are independent. Other people are correct that where the money comes from is largely irrelevant in any case.

Any position in a lab whether as a grad student or postdoc will involve a large amount of menial work only tangentially beneficial to one's own project. There are animals that need to be looked after, things that need to be cleaned, reagents to prepare, and if that's not all done then the lab will fail. Everyone feels this takes too much of their time, but it should be closer to 20% than the 80% you suggest in the question title.
If what you mean is that your girlfriend is actually engaged in performing experiments that somebody else will get the credit for to the detriment of her thesis work, then yes, that is wrong and she needs to find a way to get back to her own stuff.
posted by nowonmai at 7:40 PM on October 7

It is a training grant that she was awarded but does not transfer to another lab and can be renewed if she shows considerable research progress. The entire stipend, tuition, student health insurance and most lab supplies are covered by the grant and does not come out of the PI's grant money.

The relationship is important to her.
posted by mallow005 at 7:41 PM on October 7

If she was awarded the grant personally, she should use the time on it to further her own research. If she's working on her own research in this manner, she certainly has the right to say to the PI, "I'm working on XYZ right now, I'm sorry I don't have time to do Q." This is a different situation than just being hired as a research assistant on the PI's funded project.
posted by demiurge at 8:14 PM on October 7

mallow005, this situation is normal, especially in the beginning of a grad student's career: you have a grant that covers tuition + stipend, and you work in a lab, maybe even doing rotations in different labs doing research until you find the right fit between you and your professor for your thesis.

However, work that the student does should eventually be integrated into a publishable paper. Also, by the latter half of a grad students career, all research with the PI should be directly applicable to finishing the thesis.
posted by deanc at 8:39 PM on October 7

Thank you to everyone who answered, it gave her a lot of perspective on the issue. She's going to wait it out and see if this temporary issue which she hopes it is. Of course, if it really hurts her progress, she will probably bring it up with her PI.

Thanks!
posted by mallow005 at 8:40 PM on October 7

It is a training grant that she was awarded but does not transfer to another lab and can be renewed if she shows considerable research progress. The entire stipend, tuition, student health insurance and most lab supplies are covered by the grant and does not come out of the PI's grant money.

The relationship is important to her.

She has an angle here, and she should use it. Her status as free labor for him (this is sadly not unusual) is contingent upon, and could be extended by, more progress on her own research.

She can and should advocate for her own career development, and she can do so in a neutral and professional manner. The more successful she is in his lab, the better he looks. Perhaps she should work with him on a career development plan/IDP for her, which can still budget time for lab duties, but at least would give some structure and direction to this relationship.

This does not need to be an adversarial conversation. No accusations. What's the most efficient way for everyone to get what they want? She's going to have to compete for higher-stakes grants herself in a few years, if not earlier. Best that she get experienced at calm, straightforward, logical explanations of exactly what value she can bring to the table.
posted by desuetude at 9:28 PM on October 7 [1 favorite has favorites]

Her PI is known for being difficult to talk to and deal with.

This may actually be the larger issue which should be dealt with. Have your girlfriend talk to a few grad students near the end of their PhD... in my experience, even the students who idolized their PI at the beginning wanted to bludgeon their PI near the end. The PIs that seemed to work out the best were businesslike and professional, and managed not to make things personal. If she's afraid to talk to the PI now, imagine how ugly it may get once she has several years committed to the lab - bailing will be much more difficult then, and many times the PIs know and abuse this. Also consider that writing a thesis requires a lot of interaction with the PI, and personality conflicts tend to get much worse during this time.
posted by benzenedream at 9:42 PM on October 7

mallow005, this situation is normal...

Hell no, it isn't. Look, I have a PhD in biomedical engineering, I know dozens of people with PhDs in biomedical engineering, I've seen many, many theses completed. It is highly unusual to be working in an academic lab on something that is not going towards a publication. Hell, I'd say it's almost unethical prima facia. If, as you say, your girlfriend "won't get recognized in any papers" for the work she's spending 80% of her time on, she is getting screwed, and screwed hard.

She needs to be the squeaky wheel. Good soldiers don't get jobs.
posted by mr_roboto at 10:28 PM on October 7

It is a training grant that she was awarded but does not transfer to another lab.

Triple check that. If, for example, it's one of the NIH training grants, those are generally portable, at least within the school & department.

If your girlfriend is spending 80% of her time on a project that she will definitely not be a co-author on, and that will definitely not form part of her thesis project, something is amiss. She should really talk to her PI first (does s/he know how much time this other project is actually eating up?), and failing that, her committee and the department. Perhaps it's a science/engineering difference, but I've never heard of people getting stuck working on "a project [their] professor was contracted to do," with no possibility of publications. I have it on very, very good authority that work done as a research tech, undergraduate, and even high school student can get you published; publications are pretty important for young people in the sciences, and that she'd be spending most of her time working on a project that she would get no professional credit for is wholly foreign to me.

On the other hand, if your girlfriend's doing general lab work or things for this project four days out of five, but these tasks do not eat up all her time, the situation is less clear. Depending on lab size and composition, and on the policies of the institution, there might be a fair amount of maintainance that general lab members have to handle. (Caring for animals, keeping tissue culture areas sterile, washing glassware, dealing with chemical, biological, and radioactive waste, pouring plates, ordering common supplies, etc.) Pitching in on other projects in one's lab and the labs of collaborators (and often getting a co-authorship for it) is also pretty normal. If either of these are what she has been stuck doing, it's still worth talking to the PI about redistributing the work if it is leaving her with too little time to work on her own stuff.

Finally: whatever the work is, your girlfriend should take a step back and see if she can see herself finishing her thesis research and writing up her disseration in her lab. The relationship with her PI is naturally important to her, and presumably she chose the lab for good reasons, but sometimes there are simply mis-matches between PI and grad student. If she can't talk to her PI about this, that's a problem, and it's not going to get any easier if she waits to deal with it. (This is one of the reasons that grad programs, particularly bio-related ones, are increasingly implementing rotations.) At the very least, if I were in your girlfriend's place, I would not "wait it out," I'd talk to the PI and figure out if this uncredited project is really uncredited, if it has an end date, and what the PI plans to do to support the actual thesis research in the future. Getting this straightened out will let your girlfriend figure out what to do next - whether it be finish the project or start looking for a new advisor.
posted by ubersturm at 12:02 AM on October 8 [1 favorite has favorites]

I'd say 4/5 days is surely violating the terms of her own grant. If the funding agency find out, they will not renew her grant. Worse, she'll likely be expected to account for her work time when requesting renewal.
posted by jeffburdges at 1:58 AM on October 8

I have spent 9 years working in biomedical research labs in the US, and have never seen something like this. If anything, the students were given *more* support (particularly than the post-docs) because the departments didn't want them to become perennial PhD candidates.

If any general lab work was to be done, it was done by the techs, or divided up between everyone in the lab, and if your own research wasn't affected by it, you didn't do it. So maybe a student might have spent 1-2 hours per week making stock solutions or helping with animals.
posted by gaspode at 9:00 AM on October 8