The High-School drop-out would like some respect.

October 3, 2009 5:45 AM

How bad is the high school drop-out stigma among the general public?

I dropped out of High School before completing even one year, or month. It was dumb, I shouldn't have done it, you aren't my lawyer, etc.

Usually I don't mind admitting this because I've received my GED. Lately though it seems it is hurting my reputation unless I get a college diploma.

I'm not an idiot, but I'm not particularly intelligent. I don't have any really redeeming qualities in any kind of art to make up for the lack of education. I do some high-tech work and people seem to respect that. I'm just not really in tune with what they think about me.

Is the public stigma attached to this issue really bad, should I just never discuss it?

posted by anonymous to education (34 comments total)

I think it depends on what you've done afterwards. If you dropped out of high school, but are now very successful at what you do, then you're considered as someone who can overcome obstacles and get by on street smarts or self-training.

If you drop out of high school and struggle, folks are more apt to think that leaving school is a sign of weakness, or of a personality prone to giving up.

I think the question I'd ask is when does this come up? If you're job-hunting, it may be an issue, but I rarely discuss my level of education with the general public, and I don't know too many people who ask about it.
posted by xingcat at 6:04 AM on October 3, 2009

It'd very bad if you don't have a GED. But both less-bright and more-bright people get GEDs these days, and in some states they can do so before the year they'd have graduated HS. So it's really how you spin it: "I failed HS and got my GED" implies dumbass, while "I found HS boring and unchallenging, so I got my GED" implies smarter-than-average.

The real issue is the college diploma; as HS has been dumbed down in the last generation or two, a BA is the cultural equivalent today to a HS diploma before 1950: that is, it's hard to get considered for a white-collar job without one, and even if you do get one, it's hard to progress in a career without the BA/BS.
posted by orthogonality at 6:08 AM on October 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

Is there some public stigma attached to not having a diploma? Maybe, but I would say it ties strongly to your life now. You say that you are doing high tech work, people respect that, and hey you still have a job. If you had a ged and lived in your mom's basement and you were unemployed then yeah, I think you would be stigmatized.

I would also say that as you get older the stigma becomes less because people are more concerned with you as adult, versus the person you were in high school.

I think that if you discuss it now, with people who didn't know about the ged you will get a least some form of, "wow, you dropped out of high school? I never would have guessed." This shows some lack of tact on their part, but truthfully comes out as a compliment because they see you NOW as someone who has got their shit together. And you have, so I wouldn't worry about it.

As for getting another job without a college degree (which I know you don't mention), that is hard for anyone right now and it was hard 5 years ago, so you may still have problems in that area if you can't quantify your skills. Heck, it is hard for college graduates, so don't beat yourself up or apply a stigma to it when the economy is so bad.
posted by aetg at 6:09 AM on October 3, 2009

Who asks about whether you graduated high school? As long as a person seems reasonably normal, can or has had jobs, it wouldn't even occur to me to wonder or care. I'd pretty much never ask regardless.
posted by R343L at 6:10 AM on October 3, 2009

A little out of order, but let me comment on your comments:

"I'm not an idiot, but I'm not particularly intelligent. I don't have any really redeeming qualities in any kind of art to make up for the lack of education. I do some high-tech work and people seem to respect that. I'm just not really in tune with what they think about me."

Don't talk yourself down; everyone has redeeming qualities, you've just got to accept yourself as you are and identify your specific redeeming qualities.

If folks are respecting you for your work this proves you've got redeeming qualities.


"Usually I don't mind admitting this because I've received my GED. Lately though it seems it is hurting my reputation unless I get a college diploma."

Getting your GED is commendable. Seriously. I hire folks and would very, very positively upon someone who earned a GED and, in fact, would consider this person a stronger candidate for a position than someone who "just went to high school". Its very easy to drop out and then "just work". If someone takes time off to complete a GED they are worthy of a second look.

So from where I'm sitting, you're self motivated and able to self-criticise. Perhaps a little too much (e.g., "no redeeming qualities"), but self-criticism is a very positive character trait.

However you are correct in that education is becoming increasingly important. Can't you divert some of your motivation towards earning a degree, perhaps even via a non traditional (i.e., distance learning) route?

I think this would markedly help improve your self-confidence.
posted by Mutant at 6:15 AM on October 3, 2009 [4 favorites]

Mostly everyone frowns down upon something, but you are right, there are many people who do not look down upon those who do not have a high school degree. But many people, including myself, do not think that your worth is measured by what kind of and how many degrees and diplomas you have, and know that this certainly does not translate into intelligence.

People drop out of high school all the time, for a lot of different reasons. I quit going to school during my senior year, for months at a time, and only graduated because I was lucky to have an amazing guidance counselor. I did not go to college right away. I got lots of questions, poking, prodding, like there was something wrong with me for straying from the conventional order of things. It takes a lot of strength to stand up for yourself, to tell others that you don't believe that life is a rat race, and that you don't believe everyone ought to follow the same path in life. Sometimes they'll leave you alone after this, sometimes they will not. You just need to develop the confidence to believe it yourself.

Congratulations on receiving your GED! The fact that you actively pursued this is pretty damn awesome, and if you are happy doing high-tech work, then fuck the rest. I respect you for the maturity you possess in knowing that you can make it just fine, without following the herd.
posted by raztaj at 6:16 AM on October 3, 2009

If you're experiencing stigma, I doubt it has to do with how smart you are. I think it has more to do with the fact that you barely went to high school at all. For most people, high school provides the backdrop for the discovery of their identity. It's considered a more or less universal experience in our culture, and so some people may have a hard time relating to someone who didn't share those experiences.
posted by hermitosis at 6:40 AM on October 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

As far as I'm concerned, if you have a GED you finished high school. You may have dropped out at some point, but you went back an finished. Congratulations, high school graduate.
posted by LastOfHisKind at 6:48 AM on October 3, 2009 [2 favorites]

I think it depends a lot on what kind of work you do. People in high-tech industries probably don't look down on things like that as much as say, full-time academics. You're likely more or less respected by your capability to do the work.
posted by Eastgate at 7:27 AM on October 3, 2009

I think most people appreciate others who have overcome struggles and have made decisions that involve thinking about life and their choices.

Most people would think this is a pretty cool thing. You should, too.
posted by dzaz at 7:29 AM on October 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

If you have a GED you are not a high school dropout.
posted by KokuRyu at 7:42 AM on October 3, 2009 [4 favorites]

People in high-tech industries probably don't look down on things like that as much as say, full-time academics.

I work full-time in academia, and I think someone who dropped out of high school in ninth grade, eventually got a GED, and has the skills to work in high tech is a fucking rock star. I would love to see someone like that come through my door. An awful lot of people basically coast to a high school diploma by following the rules and doing a tiny bit of work. It's not a huge achievement in my book. Whereas anyone who bounces back after dropping out in ninth grade is someone who has taken control of his or her own life and achieved things through planning and working for them.

So yeah, there might be some stigma among some people. But there are other people who are going to be really impressed that you successfully overcame obstacles, even if they were obstacles of your own making.
posted by craichead at 7:46 AM on October 3, 2009 [9 favorites]

I know a handful of successful people who for whatever reasons (boredom is a big one) did not finish high school and chose to get their GEDS. One of these people went on to be a college professor and one is a lawyer. I just see it as high school moved too slowly for them.
posted by pluckysparrow at 8:14 AM on October 3, 2009

I don't think you have any reason to feel ashamed, but I acknowledge that this must be hard. Again, I don't think there's a stigma but I acknowledge that I've not walked in your shoes so I really can't know what you experience.

I'm trying to imagine situations where this might come up in conversation, and can think of 3 situations. Only one requires you to say that you earned your GED, so if you don't want to mention it, you don't have to.

#1: Getting a job.
In this case, it's a matter of laying out your credentials and qualifications for the job. You must tell the truth, and I don't think it would lessen your chances for a job.

#2: The one-uppers.
These people will always look down at others. They'll ask. If you went to school in an average or lower-income area, they went to school in a richer area. If you went to State University, then they'll tell you they went to Ivy League. If you got a Bachelors, they got a Masters. If you got a PhD from an Ivy League school, they will change the subject to find something else to look down at you for. You can never win, and these people are not worth being around. To these people, maybe redirect by answering their question with questions, allowing them to get their statements of superiority out of their system as soon as possible.
One-upper: "Where did you go to school?"
You: "Oh! Where did you go to school?"
One-upper: "I went to Whatever School."
You: "I hear Whatever School is really great. Did you enjoy it?"

#3: The people trying to make a social connection.
These people are just trying to find and establish a common ground, or just make conversation. I would think that a GED would not be a show-stopper to their goal. But, if you feel that it is, you could provide them with what they are looking for without addressing the particulars.
Social person: "Where did you go to school?"
You: "I went to school in Hometown."
Social person: "Hey, I know someone in Hometown/I've heard of Hometown/Whatever. What school did you go to?"
You: "I was in the Hometown School District. That's on the north/south/east/west side of Hometown. [redirect] What about you? Where are you from?"
posted by Houstonian at 8:19 AM on October 3, 2009 [2 favorites]

You have a GED, so the fact that you dropped out is pretty much erased there. Many people I know with GEDs got them because they were in specialized job training as teenagers, so it doesn't necessarily mean you left in disgrace.

I don't have a high school diploma either [my parents pulled me out for medical reasons] but in my experience people don't really care. I've never been turned down for a job because of it. And socially, when I tell people they're surprised but quickly get over it and often forget. So as far as I can tell, the only people who care are the military and pretentious academics.

It sounds like you're knowledgeable in your field, and have peoples respect, so I wouldn't worry about it.
posted by chana meira at 8:19 AM on October 3, 2009

How often does this subject come up? I have found that once you are past, say, 25, the only people who ask about your schooling are douchebags who want to pigeonhole you in terms of social status. (Or show off about their own education, which is only slightly better.) I don't see why anyone but a prospective employer needs to know about your GED.

(Honestly, if I met you at a party, I'd be interested to hear what it's like not going to high school at all, and what you did instead, but if you didn't mention it I can't imagine how I'd find out.)
posted by CunningLinguist at 8:31 AM on October 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

My grandfather didn't finish high school. But what he did was write to 10 Harvard professors and ask them for a list of 10 books he should read. Then he read all the books.

No one ever looked down on my grandfather for not finishing high school because he always had lots of interesting things to say and knew lots of interesting stuff.

By contrast, I went to Yale. But I don't go around talking about how I went to Yale, and people don't ask me about it, and it's not on my resume. However, I am told that I have interesting things to say and know lots of interesting stuff.

What people will judge you on, for the most part, is the quality of your mind. If you take the trouble to become educated, in or out of school, no one will judge you harshly for not getting your education normally. But if you show gaping holes in your education, then they will judge you harshly whether you graduated from high school or not.
posted by musofire at 8:50 AM on October 3, 2009 [4 favorites]

anonymous posted">> I'm not particularly intelligent

Actually, judging from your writing, you're smarter and better educated than most of the internet. Proper spelling, punctuation and grammar for the win!

Regarding lack of diploma, I always thought that a GED was officially equivalent to a high school diploma. If I interviewed you for a job, I'd consider you on an equal footing with high school graduates. Plus, as Mutant pointed out, it shows more motivation than the default method of simply warming a chair through high school. And if you're doing some high-tech work, you've clearly got the smarts for a decent career.

It sounds like maybe this is something that bothers you on a personal level. Can you take some classes at your local community college and get a college degree that way? A more advanced degree effectively "wipes out" the lower degrees - if you have a BA, nobody cares about your high school diploma.
posted by Quietgal at 8:53 AM on October 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

Here's where the stigma comes from: certain folks drop out of high school, get a GED or not, but spend their entire life rolling in and out of retail or fast food (or similar) jobs, having attitude about it, flaking out or quitting in a huff from those jobs all the time, and generally coming off as people who, ah...don't do so well for themselves in life. Or come off as particularly intelligent, especially when they have attitude about even getting job training because that's too much like school, man. To be honest, those people do tend to come off as stupid, not just in school but in having a sufficiently practical enough attitude to fend for themselves on a consistent basis. (Let's just say I spent a couple of years surrounded by folks like this and the 'tude got REALLY old after awhile.)

On the other hand, I've known people who dropped out of high school (in some cases didn't even get a GED) and yet managed to go to college and/or hold down employment on a regular basis and support themselves without making a whole lotta drama about it.

Now, I don't know squat about your job, but if you can manage to hold down a fairly technical job for a good chunk of time, and don't run around bitching about it, it sounds to me like you're not fitting into the stereotypical "dropout loser" paradigm here.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:07 AM on October 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

Is the public stigma attached to this issue really bad, should I just never discuss it?

Yes, the stigma is pretty bad. Why bring it up if you don't have to?

Having said that --- for a smart, well-adjusted person, having a GED imposes virtually no limits on one's potential career success, because so many colleges welcome GED holders. You can go to college, get your degree, go to graduate school if you choose, and the fact that you have a GED will never come up. If anyone asks where you went to high school, just tell them the name of the school you attended before you dropped out (after all, that's where you did go to high school).

The stigma is bad because, for many people on the lower rungs of the U.S. social ladder, getting a GED is the peak of educational achievement for them. So, if you talk about holding a GED, some people will reflexively lump you in with the low-class people who are the typical consumers of the GED option.

But since so many high schools are so bad, the atypical GED graduate (the bright person who had problems in high school and dropped out) will be at least indistinguishable, educationally, from someone who stayed in high school, and will probably appear brighter.

I'm surprised that this thread has not brought out the hordes of MeFites who seem to know someone who got a GED and then went to Stanford or Harvard. That kind of reverse snobbishness ("I didn't even get a high school diploma and yet I went to a better college than you") is really annoying.
posted by jayder at 11:21 AM on October 3, 2009

My Dad dropped out of high school. He then went on to spend years doing incredibly advanced mechanical, hardware and software engineering work in aerospace and biotech fields, getting countless patents, starting his own company, getting an MBA from a good school, and much more. Choosing to skip high school and get a GED is of no significance, and might say more about your school than it does about you. It's all about what you actually do with your life.
posted by dacoit at 11:26 AM on October 3, 2009

I'll dissent from the notion of GED comparability to a high school diploma.

A GED proves that you have basic English language proficiency and have a IQ above bare minimum.

A high school diploma proves nothing abut language or IQ (heck, most bachelor's degrees prove nothing about IQ, these days), but does demonstrate something a GED does not: a bare minimum ability to organize one's self and follow rules over an extended period of time. The lack of diploma doesn't prove the lack of those qualities, but it does make one need other evidence of their existence.
posted by MattD at 11:36 AM on October 3, 2009

If you're working in a technical area, is there a specialist program you can take to give you a nice piece of paper to show how qualified you are in your field? Triple benefit as it keeps you up to date, makes you more employable/portable and puts to rest some of your feelings about dropping out. People drop out of high school for all kinds of reasons. The fact that you have earned your GED and hold a job where your talents are recognized says a lot of good things about you.
posted by x46 at 12:03 PM on October 3, 2009

A GED proves that you have basic English language proficiency and have a IQ above bare minimum.

Not only are you wrong, you're being an asshole about it. There's a list of sample questions here, I'm not sure what your definition of basic English literacy is but for me it would not include seven hours of answering those questions.
posted by kate blank at 12:04 PM on October 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

You know another thing a HSD proves? That at no time were you required to work more than full time to support your worthless addict mother and young siblings when your even more worthless and addicted dad left. Or, that you made it through the teen years without any major medical issues. Or, that you were raised entirely in America instead of going to Uruguay with your parents who did field work with fungus and therefore you did school by mail which has a GED at the end. Etc.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 12:10 PM on October 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

I've read somewhere that there is no real correlation between academic success and success later in life.

Also, there’s nothing stopping you from going to college, either online or a local community college. Just saying that you are pursuing a degree in (whatever) would wipe out the GED.
posted by jamesalbert at 12:14 PM on October 3, 2009 [1 favorite]

You say your GED is "hurting [your] reputation." How so? With whom? Why is it hurting you now but not previously? You don't say you want to return to school, so it seems you are mainly worried that people will think less of you if they know your chosen education level. At the same time, however, you state that people respect your work.

My response is this: If your current level of education allows you to live the life you want to live, and if you get the respect you desire through the quality of work you currently perform, then why not proudly reveal your education level? Either that or simply keep it to yourself. It's up to you whether you discuss your education level at all (in my life, discussion of my education level rarely comes up in normal daily/weekly conversation). If clients ask, "Did you go to school for this?" just tell them you are naturally gifted in your line of work.
posted by Piscean at 12:20 PM on October 3, 2009

I've read somewhere that there is no real correlation between academic success and success later in life.

HUH? You might want to try reading those studies again. There are many factors involved in economic success so it isn't as easy as saying, "go to college, get a good paying job." But higher education is indeed associated with higher earnings. There are other things you gain from higher education as well (such as social capital), which are helpful in attaining a higher socioeconomic status.
posted by Piscean at 12:45 PM on October 3, 2009

low-class people who are the typical consumers of the GED option.

A GED proves that you have basic English language proficiency and have a [sic] IQ above bare minimum.

So I guess there is a stigma, even here.

I'd like to put forth two items. "It's taxing enough that Lyn Schaefer, the GED Testing Service's Director of Test Development, says that despite the test takers' 70% pass rate, six out of 10 enrolled high school seniors who do trial runs of the exam wouldn't be able to pass the real thing."

[PDF] "The 2000 U.S. Census indicates that more than 39 million adults aged 16 and older in the United States, or 18 percent of the U.S. adult population, lack a high school diploma and are not enrolled in any educational program."

So, for the poster, those are things to remind yourself when people indicate that they think your GED is a marker of being "low-class" or having an "IQ above bare minimum." Your GED is an achievement in itself, but also you've done better than many high school seniors could've done on that test. Anybody who looks down on you is choosing to look down on almost 1 in 5 Americans.
posted by Houstonian at 12:54 PM on October 3, 2009 [3 favorites]

Those who understand the proud history of the GED, as a confirming credential of General Educational Development for WWII veterans who volunteered or enlisted in the U.S. Armed Services, in time of war, without graduating from high school, but interested in returning to college after the conclusion of their service, attach no stigma to the credential itself, or to those who hold it. Indeed, in the late 1940's, the GED certification not only became a mark of educational development for the military veterans who earned it, but a foundational element of the post-War GI Bill system of college and university programs, designed to help these men and women advance in civilian life.

In those early post-War years, you saw college classrooms around the country populated by a mix of the usual 18, 19 and 20 year old college underclassmen, and an older group of post-War veterans, most in their late 20s and early 30s, many of whom with physical disabilities from war wounds, making their way through the undergraduate system. The older students had a high percentage of GED certificate holders, as these veterans used the credential they'd earned through wartime correspondence courses, or post war testing programs, to enter college. It was known by college educators that GED holders of that era were more likely to complete their college studies under the GI bill than their younger classmates, because they had GI bill benefits to pay for school, and most had a powerful desire to get their war interrupted lives back on track.

More than 60 years after its introduction as a means of helping returning veterans re-enter civilian life, the GED remains the only nationally administered, normalized testing measure of high school level educational development for U.S. students. It continues to do exactly what it was designed to do - measure and certify the general educational development of the people who take the GED test, and a passing score on the GED still means what it always has: that the person receiving such passing score has attained a level of educational development on a par with high school graduates in America, and is qualified to undertake undergraduate college instruction.
posted by paulsc at 2:12 PM on October 3, 2009 [3 favorites]

Don't mention it and everyone will assume you graduated.

If someone asks about your education, start talking about your experience.

I respect people who get their GEDs, it's very hard and indicates that someone without the best start was able to turn themselves around and succeed at something with hard work. Everyone might not think that way, so avoid it as much as possible. Unless you can tell a funny story about it that makes you look good.
posted by kathrineg at 4:01 PM on October 3, 2009

I dropped out of high school before I finished 9th grade. Essentially, I had gotten to the point where I was so depressed that I was no longer functional. There was no point in me staying.

A few years later, I got my GED. That was easy. Getting into college was harder; I needed much better proficiency with high school math in order to score decently on college admission tests. I borrowed a textbook from someone and just did problems until it made sense. Then I took the SAT and the ACT, and did well on both.

When I started college, I had no real study or organizational skills. But unlike most of the other 1st year students, I was prepared to work. My first semester was incredibly hard. My second was easier. I still struggled with math-based courses (Physics and Calculus were rough), but in most of my classes I performed well above average.

After four years, I graduated. Now I have a full-time research job—nothing glamorous, but it pays the bills and it's in my field. Now I'm working on getting into graduate school. My lack of a high school diploma hasn't been an issue. It almost never comes up, and when it does, people tend to regard it as nothing more than a curious footnote. To my knowledge, no one has ever looked down on me for it.

You may have to work harder than those with a diploma to prove your competency. But that's really all that matters; that you can prove your competency. If you're good enough at what you do, most people won't care how you learned it.
posted by dephlogisticated at 5:18 PM on October 3, 2009

You seem to be modest, hardworking, polite and articulate. I'd hire you over some dumb-arsed graduate who can't tie their own shoes and has an over-inflated sense of entitlement any day.
posted by obiwanwasabi at 6:10 PM on October 3, 2009

Anon OP how old are you? I'm 32 and never finished high school, but now have better qualifications and am old enough that high school doesn't come up on my resume. At all. I just don't even mention it. Your GED is the equivalent of a diploma, but if it's more than 10 years since you 'could' have graduated high school then who cares?

I see now your post is about a 'high-tech area' - my ex has done very well for himself as a self-taught software engineer without a diploma or a degree, working for a high-level software development house (Adobe) - your experience and how you frame it in your CV has to get you the interview, but then you need to prove yourself in the technical tests. If you can do that, you're golden.
posted by goo at 5:22 PM on October 4, 2009