Help me fix my daughter's Volvo for cheap!
September 29, 2009 10:38 AM Subscribe
1992 Volvo 240 in my driveway will not start.
Can the hive mind help me fix it without spending what the car is worth?
Details inside.
I am in Waconia, MN.
The last time it ran [about a year ago], I started it up, drove it around the block, pulled into the driveway, turned it off and then tried to start it again right away to reposition it. Wouldn't start. There she has been until now.
My daughter is two weeks from her drivers license, so getting the White Whale running has taken on new urgency.
Battery seems good. The engine cranks and cranks, but never catches.
When I turn the key, I hear the fuel pump "spin up".
There is gas in the tank.
A spark tester appears to show that there is no spark.
There are no obvious loose wires in the ignition system. Plug wires, plugs, distributor cap & rotor [not sure about coil, though it looks to match the new distributor cap] were all replaced shortly before the last drive. It ran fine for a couple-three weeks after that maintenance and before the failure.
It'll cost me $80 to tow it to the garage. Once there, Will tells me electrical problems on old Volvos usually mean lots of billable fishing around, so it seems to me that I'm at high risk of a several-hundred-dollar "still haven't found it" invoice. I don't like the sound of that. The car is only worth maybe $1K.
The nearest Volvo dealer is 30-40 miles away. That's a couple-hundred-dollar tow I'd rather avoid. Maybe that's the right answer, though, if Borton going to say "Oh, sure, it's this thing right here."
I have tried a couple different fuel pump relays, which apparently is a common cause of this problem, to no avail. I am not afraid of working on cars [I just helped replace the timing belt on my TDI], but could use some pointers in the right direction for diagnostics.
So, can the hive mind recommend:
A: a Volvo mechanic who could come look at it in situ
B: a Volvo-knowledgeable mechanic closer to me than Borton Volvo
C: an industrial education facility that needs interesting problems to study at low cost to me
D: Diagnostic steps I can pursue to narrow this down.
Thanks in advance.
I am in Waconia, MN.
The last time it ran [about a year ago], I started it up, drove it around the block, pulled into the driveway, turned it off and then tried to start it again right away to reposition it. Wouldn't start. There she has been until now.
My daughter is two weeks from her drivers license, so getting the White Whale running has taken on new urgency.
Battery seems good. The engine cranks and cranks, but never catches.
When I turn the key, I hear the fuel pump "spin up".
There is gas in the tank.
A spark tester appears to show that there is no spark.
There are no obvious loose wires in the ignition system. Plug wires, plugs, distributor cap & rotor [not sure about coil, though it looks to match the new distributor cap] were all replaced shortly before the last drive. It ran fine for a couple-three weeks after that maintenance and before the failure.
It'll cost me $80 to tow it to the garage. Once there, Will tells me electrical problems on old Volvos usually mean lots of billable fishing around, so it seems to me that I'm at high risk of a several-hundred-dollar "still haven't found it" invoice. I don't like the sound of that. The car is only worth maybe $1K.
The nearest Volvo dealer is 30-40 miles away. That's a couple-hundred-dollar tow I'd rather avoid. Maybe that's the right answer, though, if Borton going to say "Oh, sure, it's this thing right here."
I have tried a couple different fuel pump relays, which apparently is a common cause of this problem, to no avail. I am not afraid of working on cars [I just helped replace the timing belt on my TDI], but could use some pointers in the right direction for diagnostics.
So, can the hive mind recommend:
A: a Volvo mechanic who could come look at it in situ
B: a Volvo-knowledgeable mechanic closer to me than Borton Volvo
C: an industrial education facility that needs interesting problems to study at low cost to me
D: Diagnostic steps I can pursue to narrow this down.
Thanks in advance.
Best answer: Check for fuel - disconnect the fuel line at the rail and spin the car over on the starter with the hose poked into a pot. If the pot fills up, fuel is conditionally available. You can hear the pump, but that is nowhere near enough information.
Fuel pressure may be too low (take out the feed after the fuel pressure regulator and see if fuel is trying to go BACK to the tank. If not, then not enough pressure is being fed to the rail to fire the injectors - fuel pump is weak through age or fuel filter is partially blocked (to pick a couple of likely causes).
Check for spark at the plug - take out a plug, put it back in the lead and hold (with a pair of insulated pliers) the 'internal' end of the plug against the engine block and have a helper crank the engine. If you see a nice shiny blue spark at the plug, the spark is good.
The coil may be duff - you will see no spark at all or a very weak one.
The rotor arm may not be turning (you won't see a spark, most likely, or not at more than one spark lead).
So it's back to basics. Check for fuel delivery and then spark delivery. If you have both, then it could be an air issue, or a quantity of fuel or spark issue. Or something more expensive. Start with that and come back.
posted by Brockles at 10:58 AM on September 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
Fuel pressure may be too low (take out the feed after the fuel pressure regulator and see if fuel is trying to go BACK to the tank. If not, then not enough pressure is being fed to the rail to fire the injectors - fuel pump is weak through age or fuel filter is partially blocked (to pick a couple of likely causes).
Check for spark at the plug - take out a plug, put it back in the lead and hold (with a pair of insulated pliers) the 'internal' end of the plug against the engine block and have a helper crank the engine. If you see a nice shiny blue spark at the plug, the spark is good.
The coil may be duff - you will see no spark at all or a very weak one.
The rotor arm may not be turning (you won't see a spark, most likely, or not at more than one spark lead).
So it's back to basics. Check for fuel delivery and then spark delivery. If you have both, then it could be an air issue, or a quantity of fuel or spark issue. Or something more expensive. Start with that and come back.
posted by Brockles at 10:58 AM on September 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
I had a 240 in high school and got through many a problem with help from the folks at the brickboard forum for RWD models.
posted by (lambda (x) x) at 10:59 AM on September 29, 2009
posted by (lambda (x) x) at 10:59 AM on September 29, 2009
Best answer: There are two fuel pumps in the 240 series - one in the tank (the pre-pump) and one along the fuel line (the main pump). You are probably hearing the tank pump priming the line up to the main pump, but when you crank, the main pump is not running. So you might get underneath the back of the car (if I remember correctly the main pump is next to the rear wheel opposite the exhaust, but it's been a while...) and check the electrical connections to the main pump. Or listen to see if the main pump is indeed running when the key is turned.
posted by gyusan at 11:00 AM on September 29, 2009
posted by gyusan at 11:00 AM on September 29, 2009
Well if there's no spark it doesn't matter whether the fuel pump relay's working, so I'd pursue the spark first. If you don't trust the spark tester, you can remove a plug, plug the wire to it, lay the grounded side of the plug on the frame and have someone turn over the engine while you watch for spark. (Observing some safety precautions here if the cylinder is open)
If there's no spark on any wire, it could be the coil, or it could be shorting out in the distributor. I think I had a car that would short out in the distributor, and I could see it happen if I took the cap off and watched. (Insert more safety precautions here about high voltage- you want your hands etc. away from same)
posted by MtDewd at 11:01 AM on September 29, 2009
If there's no spark on any wire, it could be the coil, or it could be shorting out in the distributor. I think I had a car that would short out in the distributor, and I could see it happen if I took the cap off and watched. (Insert more safety precautions here about high voltage- you want your hands etc. away from same)
posted by MtDewd at 11:01 AM on September 29, 2009
Not a Volvo mechanic, not a pro mechanic. IANYM.
Fuel, air, and spark. Three things an engine needs to run.
Tell us more about the spark tester. How did you test for spark, and what did you see?
When you crank the engine, does it catch at all?
In the absence of a spark problem, I would suspect a fuel problem. Is fuel getting into the engine? Is the fuel so old that it's bad? Is the engine flooded?
As a cheap for the hell of it test, I'd add a gallon of new gas and a can of drygas to the tank, and also start the engine while giving the battery a boost from another car.
I would also check the spark plugs and wires, at the very least pulling the caps off the plugs and putting dielectric grease on.
posted by zippy at 11:01 AM on September 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
Fuel, air, and spark. Three things an engine needs to run.
Tell us more about the spark tester. How did you test for spark, and what did you see?
When you crank the engine, does it catch at all?
In the absence of a spark problem, I would suspect a fuel problem. Is fuel getting into the engine? Is the fuel so old that it's bad? Is the engine flooded?
As a cheap for the hell of it test, I'd add a gallon of new gas and a can of drygas to the tank, and also start the engine while giving the battery a boost from another car.
I would also check the spark plugs and wires, at the very least pulling the caps off the plugs and putting dielectric grease on.
posted by zippy at 11:01 AM on September 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Tell us more about the spark tester. How did you test for spark, and what did you see?
Used one of these, saw nothing while engine was cranking.
When you crank the engine, does it catch at all?
No.
I'd add a gallon of new gas and a can of drygas to the tank, and also start the engine while giving the battery a boost from another car.
Both done two weeks ago during my last attempt.
posted by chazlarson at 11:15 AM on September 29, 2009
Used one of these, saw nothing while engine was cranking.
When you crank the engine, does it catch at all?
No.
I'd add a gallon of new gas and a can of drygas to the tank, and also start the engine while giving the battery a boost from another car.
Both done two weeks ago during my last attempt.
posted by chazlarson at 11:15 AM on September 29, 2009
There are Volvo mechanics at :
http://www.brickboard.com/RWD/index.htm?model=200
The Mechanics File at Car Talk may be useful for finding a Volvo mechanic :
http://cartalk.com/
posted by llc at 11:16 AM on September 29, 2009
http://www.brickboard.com/RWD/index.htm?model=200
The Mechanics File at Car Talk may be useful for finding a Volvo mechanic :
http://cartalk.com/
posted by llc at 11:16 AM on September 29, 2009
A spark tester appears to show that there is no spark.
Then start here. First thing to check is loose wires. New wires, works for a short period, then no spark - that is a classic loose wire.
posted by caddis at 11:20 AM on September 29, 2009
Then start here. First thing to check is loose wires. New wires, works for a short period, then no spark - that is a classic loose wire.
posted by caddis at 11:20 AM on September 29, 2009
I seem to remember a fuel injector fuse (25 amp?) all by itself under the hood next to the battery, maybe in a little plastic enclosure attached to the frame. It's not in the fuse panel that's by your right foot while you're driving. Make sure it isn't blown (though this might indicate a more serious problem) and that the connection isn't corroded.
I'd also replace the distributor cap/rotor and maybe the spark plug wires as a matter of course, but that might be more than you're willing to spend.
posted by pullayup at 11:30 AM on September 29, 2009
I'd also replace the distributor cap/rotor and maybe the spark plug wires as a matter of course, but that might be more than you're willing to spend.
posted by pullayup at 11:30 AM on September 29, 2009
Oh, sorry, I missed that you replaced the distributor parts/spark plug wires.
posted by pullayup at 11:32 AM on September 29, 2009
posted by pullayup at 11:32 AM on September 29, 2009
Here is a faq on how to read the OBD codes. It mainly applies to the higher series, but they say much of this info also pertains to the 200 series. It is worth a try.
posted by caddis at 11:49 AM on September 29, 2009
posted by caddis at 11:49 AM on September 29, 2009
I don't remember which fuel injection system they had then. They had crank position sensors by '92, didn't they? That's definitely a part that would kill the car.
Do you have a multimeter ? Check the coil resistance (primary+secondary) compared to whatever it's supposed to be. Should be low on primary and high on secondary (~9Kohm). I dunno what the exact spec is, though.
If you crank and crank do you smell gas? If no, definitely suspect the fuel pump.
Do you have the Bentley manual for the car? That should be your first purchase with any old european car. :)
posted by paanta at 11:58 AM on September 29, 2009
Do you have a multimeter ? Check the coil resistance (primary+secondary) compared to whatever it's supposed to be. Should be low on primary and high on secondary (~9Kohm). I dunno what the exact spec is, though.
If you crank and crank do you smell gas? If no, definitely suspect the fuel pump.
Do you have the Bentley manual for the car? That should be your first purchase with any old european car. :)
posted by paanta at 11:58 AM on September 29, 2009
Best answer: I only have a couple things to add to the great answers so far.
Simply take a vice-grip or pliers and clamp the fuel return line and see if it helps. Like it's been mentioned before, although you hear the fuel pump spinning, you may have inadequate fuel pressure. By restricting return flow, you'll boost rail pressure and make up for a failing pressure regulator.
Also, instead of putting your spark tester at the end of a plug wire, put your spark tester at the end of the coil wire, verifying that your coil is producing spark.
Also, if you have a test light, unplug the connector to a fuel injector and see if you're getting power there. If you're not getting power to the injectors, you could have a faulty cam or crank position sensor that's not sending the correct data to fire the injectors. Have an assistant crank the car and see if the test light flashes. That'll verify that you're getting both power and signal.
posted by Jon-o at 1:39 PM on September 29, 2009
Simply take a vice-grip or pliers and clamp the fuel return line and see if it helps. Like it's been mentioned before, although you hear the fuel pump spinning, you may have inadequate fuel pressure. By restricting return flow, you'll boost rail pressure and make up for a failing pressure regulator.
Also, instead of putting your spark tester at the end of a plug wire, put your spark tester at the end of the coil wire, verifying that your coil is producing spark.
Also, if you have a test light, unplug the connector to a fuel injector and see if you're getting power there. If you're not getting power to the injectors, you could have a faulty cam or crank position sensor that's not sending the correct data to fire the injectors. Have an assistant crank the car and see if the test light flashes. That'll verify that you're getting both power and signal.
posted by Jon-o at 1:39 PM on September 29, 2009
Have you pursued all battery-related inquiry? My boyfriend's 1992 240 wouldn't start and it sounded like the battery was working, and we also tried jumping it, to no avail. We were sure something serious was wrong with it, due to its age/mileage. Got it towed to the shop and it was indeed just the battery. He was wanting to sell it anyway, so he just sold it to them, but as far as we know, the battery was the only problem.
posted by ishotjr at 2:08 PM on September 29, 2009
posted by ishotjr at 2:08 PM on September 29, 2009
Best answer: Take out all the fuses, spray the contacts with crc deoxit, rub them with fine sandpaper, put the fuses back in and spin them. The fuse blocks in 240s are terrible. I've had many strange problems go away from doing that.
posted by bzbb at 3:39 PM on September 29, 2009
posted by bzbb at 3:39 PM on September 29, 2009
Another resource is the appropriate forum for your make/model at SwedeSpeed. They tend to be very helpful.
posted by webhund at 4:11 PM on September 29, 2009
posted by webhund at 4:11 PM on September 29, 2009
If it's turning over, it's probably not the battery or alternator, but I would suggest making sure the ground wire(s) are solidly attached. (The XC70 I've been screwing with for the better part of the month* has two of them - not sure why.)
I had an Oldsmobile do something like this back in the day - the problem was a large chip buried down near the distributor gave up the ghost. So it might be something solid state.
It won't help with the electrical issue, but your daughter needs one of these.
*Not sure if that model has an oil trap, but if it does, replace it as per schedule! I've gone from what I thought was fixing a minor leak to looking at the bottoms of my pistons earlier today because someone before wasn't too concerned with regular maintenance.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 9:01 PM on September 29, 2009
I had an Oldsmobile do something like this back in the day - the problem was a large chip buried down near the distributor gave up the ghost. So it might be something solid state.
It won't help with the electrical issue, but your daughter needs one of these.
*Not sure if that model has an oil trap, but if it does, replace it as per schedule! I've gone from what I thought was fixing a minor leak to looking at the bottoms of my pistons earlier today because someone before wasn't too concerned with regular maintenance.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 9:01 PM on September 29, 2009
Response by poster: Thanks for the pointers, everyone; this gives me a list of stuff to try. I've marked a few best answers.
I've got a Bentley on the way from Amazon; will report back after weekend tests.
posted by chazlarson at 9:22 AM on September 30, 2009
I've got a Bentley on the way from Amazon; will report back after weekend tests.
posted by chazlarson at 9:22 AM on September 30, 2009
Re-reading, I gave some bad advice. Attaching a spark tester directly at the coil wire probably won't produce a spark because the trigger to collapse the field in the coil (thus, generating a spark) is part of the distributor. Use a test-light instead to quickly check for power ouput while cranking the engine.
I got lazy, working exclusively on coil-on-plug engines, and overlooked some basics...
posted by Jon-o at 7:45 PM on September 30, 2009
I got lazy, working exclusively on coil-on-plug engines, and overlooked some basics...
posted by Jon-o at 7:45 PM on September 30, 2009
Response by poster: OK, some new info and more questions. These image links all go to a Facebook album.
On digging in this morning, I found this mystery component laying in the engine bay. On looking around a bit, I found the gap where I presume it came from. That line goes to the AC compressor [it appears] so I'm not sure how that would keep it from starting. I have not put it back in because I can find no mention of it in my Bentley book, and I believe diodes are directional, right? Can anyone tell me which direction this thing should go?
I routed the fuel return line into a bottle and cranked it; in about 30 aggregate seconds of cranking I ended up with about a half-ounce of fuel in the bottle, so at least some fuel is reaching the engine.
Clamping off my replacement fuel return line had no effect.
Tested resistance within the coil; it meters correct per the Bentley book.
Cleaned up and verified the coil->distributor wire, and the two wires connected to the coil; no change.
In starting to go through the diagnostics in Bentley, step 1 is to check that 25-amp main fuel injection fuse. I cannot find it. Can someone tell me where it is? I've undone what seems like every connector on the driver side of the engine compartment and I'm not seeing any fuses. Here? Here? Here? Here?
Step 2: check for power to the ECU; Checks OK.
Step 3: check for continuity to ground from ECU. There is no connector in the ECU harness that has continuity to ground. Bentley says that I should now "check the two ground connections at the intake manifold", but I can find no description of where a guy might find those.
The diagnostic connector is not returning any fault codes. Attempting to read them per Bentley just returns a steady glow on the diagnostic LED. Testing the diagnostic connector per Bentley appears to indicate that it is itself bad.
posted by chazlarson at 3:23 PM on October 4, 2009
On digging in this morning, I found this mystery component laying in the engine bay. On looking around a bit, I found the gap where I presume it came from. That line goes to the AC compressor [it appears] so I'm not sure how that would keep it from starting. I have not put it back in because I can find no mention of it in my Bentley book, and I believe diodes are directional, right? Can anyone tell me which direction this thing should go?
I routed the fuel return line into a bottle and cranked it; in about 30 aggregate seconds of cranking I ended up with about a half-ounce of fuel in the bottle, so at least some fuel is reaching the engine.
Clamping off my replacement fuel return line had no effect.
Tested resistance within the coil; it meters correct per the Bentley book.
Cleaned up and verified the coil->distributor wire, and the two wires connected to the coil; no change.
In starting to go through the diagnostics in Bentley, step 1 is to check that 25-amp main fuel injection fuse. I cannot find it. Can someone tell me where it is? I've undone what seems like every connector on the driver side of the engine compartment and I'm not seeing any fuses. Here? Here? Here? Here?
Step 2: check for power to the ECU; Checks OK.
Step 3: check for continuity to ground from ECU. There is no connector in the ECU harness that has continuity to ground. Bentley says that I should now "check the two ground connections at the intake manifold", but I can find no description of where a guy might find those.
The diagnostic connector is not returning any fault codes. Attempting to read them per Bentley just returns a steady glow on the diagnostic LED. Testing the diagnostic connector per Bentley appears to indicate that it is itself bad.
posted by chazlarson at 3:23 PM on October 4, 2009
I can't see your photos, but from memory, that fuse is in a box, attached to or near the positive terminal of the battery.
posted by bzbb at 6:49 PM on October 4, 2009
posted by bzbb at 6:49 PM on October 4, 2009
There is no connector in the ECU harness that has continuity to ground.
Those big ECM connectors can often have really tiny terminals and it's hard to get a nice connection when probing them. I often have to fabricate a test lead that has the corresponding male terminal to the ECM connector's females and take my readings from that instead. A small paper-clip can also work. Just put an ohm-meter across the paper-clip to confirm that it's a good conductor first. There's often more than one ground wire in an ECM harness and I'd be really surprised if none of them had continuity.
Also, your pics aren't showing up, unfortunately. But rest assured, no A/C component will keep your car from starting.
A half-ounce isn't a lot after 30 seconds, but the pressure regulator could be restricting that flow since you're checking the return side. A better test is to unhook the SUPPLY line and, with the line in a container, turn the key on and let the fuel pump run. A significant and prodigious amount of fuel should issue forth from the fuel line very quickly. Like, a liter in 30 seconds, generally.
Also, see if you're getting power to the injectors. If you're not, then start checking the injector fuses and the ECM harness.
Also, just a wild shot, but your timing belt isn't ancient is it? If it was old and dry rotted the last time you drove it, it could have snapped when you tried to start it that second time in your drive way. I've had customers pull into a parking space, car running fine, and, ten minutes later, their car doesn't start because the timing belt popped.
Fortunately, I don't believe your Volvo has an interference engine. That is, there's no overlap in the space potentially occupied by both pistons and valves wherein the only factor preventing their collision is correct timing. On an interference engine, like a Honda for instance, a broken timing belt often results in engine damage when the tender valves collide with the brutal pistons due to the configuration of the engine. If I remember correctly, your Volvo isn't set up like that and a busted timing belt could cause a situation where the car cranks and cranks and cranks without starting, but there'd be no corresponding valve damage (or terrible metal colliding noise).
There should be a cover on the front of the engine that you can remove and inspect the belt. Usually timing belt covers are two pieces and you can remove the top couple bolts or clasps (whatever the case may be) of the top half and pry the cover back to get a look at the belt without taking off any V belts or accessories.
posted by Jon-o at 8:13 PM on October 6, 2009
Those big ECM connectors can often have really tiny terminals and it's hard to get a nice connection when probing them. I often have to fabricate a test lead that has the corresponding male terminal to the ECM connector's females and take my readings from that instead. A small paper-clip can also work. Just put an ohm-meter across the paper-clip to confirm that it's a good conductor first. There's often more than one ground wire in an ECM harness and I'd be really surprised if none of them had continuity.
Also, your pics aren't showing up, unfortunately. But rest assured, no A/C component will keep your car from starting.
A half-ounce isn't a lot after 30 seconds, but the pressure regulator could be restricting that flow since you're checking the return side. A better test is to unhook the SUPPLY line and, with the line in a container, turn the key on and let the fuel pump run. A significant and prodigious amount of fuel should issue forth from the fuel line very quickly. Like, a liter in 30 seconds, generally.
Also, see if you're getting power to the injectors. If you're not, then start checking the injector fuses and the ECM harness.
Also, just a wild shot, but your timing belt isn't ancient is it? If it was old and dry rotted the last time you drove it, it could have snapped when you tried to start it that second time in your drive way. I've had customers pull into a parking space, car running fine, and, ten minutes later, their car doesn't start because the timing belt popped.
Fortunately, I don't believe your Volvo has an interference engine. That is, there's no overlap in the space potentially occupied by both pistons and valves wherein the only factor preventing their collision is correct timing. On an interference engine, like a Honda for instance, a broken timing belt often results in engine damage when the tender valves collide with the brutal pistons due to the configuration of the engine. If I remember correctly, your Volvo isn't set up like that and a busted timing belt could cause a situation where the car cranks and cranks and cranks without starting, but there'd be no corresponding valve damage (or terrible metal colliding noise).
There should be a cover on the front of the engine that you can remove and inspect the belt. Usually timing belt covers are two pieces and you can remove the top couple bolts or clasps (whatever the case may be) of the top half and pry the cover back to get a look at the belt without taking off any V belts or accessories.
posted by Jon-o at 8:13 PM on October 6, 2009
Response by poster: Second try at posting photos; photobucket this time.
I think I was getting good contact with the ECM harness. My multimeter's probes are half the size of the ECM connectors, and I saw the "jaws" of each connector spread slightly as I probed each. I wire-nutted the other probe to the ground wire on the radio harness, so I was holding the ECM harness in one hand and probing it with the other. I used the same technique when probing for battery voltage in the ECM harness with success. I could certainly run through that test again with a paper clip actually wedged into each ECM "socket" if you think there's value.
Bentley suggests taking the ECM harness apart and probing from the side. I didn't do this because it seemed like I was getting good contact from the "front". Also, the ECM harness is well-bound with electrical tape, and I thought I'd avoid that mess if possible. Perhaps I'll take this route for a retest.
I originally tried to disconnect the supply-side fuel line, but that side is a screw-on connection [as opposed to the slide-on-with-clamp return side] and did not yield easily to WD-40 and wrenching. I figured the last thing I needed was to snap or collapse that whole assembly, so went to the return side. I suppose I could connect to the return side and use a vacuum pump to open the pressure regulator, or try disconnecting it at the fuel filter under the car, but I can't imagine that's going to be any less corroded. Probably should replace the fuel filter in any case, though, so that will have to happen.
So, next steps:
posted by chazlarson at 10:51 AM on October 7, 2009
I think I was getting good contact with the ECM harness. My multimeter's probes are half the size of the ECM connectors, and I saw the "jaws" of each connector spread slightly as I probed each. I wire-nutted the other probe to the ground wire on the radio harness, so I was holding the ECM harness in one hand and probing it with the other. I used the same technique when probing for battery voltage in the ECM harness with success. I could certainly run through that test again with a paper clip actually wedged into each ECM "socket" if you think there's value.
Bentley suggests taking the ECM harness apart and probing from the side. I didn't do this because it seemed like I was getting good contact from the "front". Also, the ECM harness is well-bound with electrical tape, and I thought I'd avoid that mess if possible. Perhaps I'll take this route for a retest.
I originally tried to disconnect the supply-side fuel line, but that side is a screw-on connection [as opposed to the slide-on-with-clamp return side] and did not yield easily to WD-40 and wrenching. I figured the last thing I needed was to snap or collapse that whole assembly, so went to the return side. I suppose I could connect to the return side and use a vacuum pump to open the pressure regulator, or try disconnecting it at the fuel filter under the car, but I can't imagine that's going to be any less corroded. Probably should replace the fuel filter in any case, though, so that will have to happen.
So, next steps:
- Verify timing belt is intact
- Verify power to injectors
- Verify main injector fuse [if I can find it]
- Check fuel flow at supply side [if I can get the fuel supply line disconnected without destroying it]
posted by chazlarson at 10:51 AM on October 7, 2009
Response by poster: "Jon-o and the rest of you", I should say.
posted by chazlarson at 11:06 AM on October 7, 2009
posted by chazlarson at 11:06 AM on October 7, 2009
What I see in those photos looks more like a power distribution block than a fuse arrangement. They may be little strip fuses, but it doesn't look like it from those photos. That block probably gets battery power and sends it to large consumers, like other fuse blocks. And strip fuses tend to be pretty hefty, like 40A and larger. Your 25A fuse will probably be in the main fuse block with the rest of the fuses for the headlights, wipers, etc. It also won't be MISSING. You did drive it prior to parking it and a fuse doesn't vanish when it blows, right?
As far as that fuel line goes, just hose it down with the WD40 and counter-hold it when you wrench on it. Those compression fitting fuel lines will often have a nut integrated onto the fuel-rail side for the purpose of counter-holding. They can be tight, but as long as you're not bending the fuel rail and counter-holding it well, it'll be fine to exert some force on it. It might be a knuckle buster, but confirming fuel quantity is a step that can't be skipped when diagnosing a no-start, unfortunately. PB Blaster is better than WD40, in my opinion. You can nuke it with that if you're finding that fitting too stubborn.
Take a good look at that timing belt when you get access to it. Often, they won't snap as much as they'll wipe the teeth off the belt. If there's slack in the belt, any fraying, or if you can see distinct shadows of the teeth showing through the belt material, it's worth taking it apart further to see if the crank pully has chewed a smooth patch through the toothed belt. Keep in mind, this is something typical of a high-mileage or aged belt so don't spend too much effort on this if you replaced the belt last winter or something.
The procedure you describe for checking the ECM harness seems pretty solid. Don't put yourself out over double checking it until you're in a situation where these next tests yield no results.
posted by Jon-o at 12:01 PM on October 7, 2009
As far as that fuel line goes, just hose it down with the WD40 and counter-hold it when you wrench on it. Those compression fitting fuel lines will often have a nut integrated onto the fuel-rail side for the purpose of counter-holding. They can be tight, but as long as you're not bending the fuel rail and counter-holding it well, it'll be fine to exert some force on it. It might be a knuckle buster, but confirming fuel quantity is a step that can't be skipped when diagnosing a no-start, unfortunately. PB Blaster is better than WD40, in my opinion. You can nuke it with that if you're finding that fitting too stubborn.
Take a good look at that timing belt when you get access to it. Often, they won't snap as much as they'll wipe the teeth off the belt. If there's slack in the belt, any fraying, or if you can see distinct shadows of the teeth showing through the belt material, it's worth taking it apart further to see if the crank pully has chewed a smooth patch through the toothed belt. Keep in mind, this is something typical of a high-mileage or aged belt so don't spend too much effort on this if you replaced the belt last winter or something.
The procedure you describe for checking the ECM harness seems pretty solid. Don't put yourself out over double checking it until you're in a situation where these next tests yield no results.
posted by Jon-o at 12:01 PM on October 7, 2009
Response by poster: Your 25A fuse will probably be in the main fuse block with the rest of the fuses for the headlights, wipers, etc. It also won't be MISSING. You did drive it prior to parking it and a fuse doesn't vanish when it blows, right?
Every reference, including the Bentley manual, says that this particular fuse is not in the fuse block with the rest of them, but is in the engine compartment on the left side.
"25-amp fuse behind the battery" seems to come up a lot, but there's nothing behind the battery that looks like a fuse. It's apparently an inline fuse, but none of the cables seem to contain such a thing. I guess next step there is to take out the battery tray and get to tracing those wires. It's apparently in the line from the battery to the fuel pump relay.
Those compression fitting fuel lines will often have a nut integrated onto the fuel-rail side for the purpose of counter-holding.
Yeah, I had two wrenches on it, attempting to hold the one while undoing the other. As I watched the fuel rail flex during that attempt I stopped before making things Much Worse. I'll try maybe clamping the counter-hold down to something sturdy so it's not right-arm-vs-left-arm.
The procedure you describe for checking the ECM harness seems pretty solid. Don't put yourself out over double checking it until you're in a situation where these next tests yield no results.
Anything to do about none of the ECM connections having continuity with ground?
posted by chazlarson at 1:36 PM on October 7, 2009
Every reference, including the Bentley manual, says that this particular fuse is not in the fuse block with the rest of them, but is in the engine compartment on the left side.
"25-amp fuse behind the battery" seems to come up a lot, but there's nothing behind the battery that looks like a fuse. It's apparently an inline fuse, but none of the cables seem to contain such a thing. I guess next step there is to take out the battery tray and get to tracing those wires. It's apparently in the line from the battery to the fuel pump relay.
Those compression fitting fuel lines will often have a nut integrated onto the fuel-rail side for the purpose of counter-holding.
Yeah, I had two wrenches on it, attempting to hold the one while undoing the other. As I watched the fuel rail flex during that attempt I stopped before making things Much Worse. I'll try maybe clamping the counter-hold down to something sturdy so it's not right-arm-vs-left-arm.
The procedure you describe for checking the ECM harness seems pretty solid. Don't put yourself out over double checking it until you're in a situation where these next tests yield no results.
Anything to do about none of the ECM connections having continuity with ground?
posted by chazlarson at 1:36 PM on October 7, 2009
It's apparently an inline fuse, but none of the cables seem to contain such a thing.
They could be talking about a fusible link where the fuse is basically a fail point in the wire itself with no outward appearance of a fuse or bulge in the wire. That'd be unusual, however, and the manual would be specific about that in its description.
But, in my experience with European cars, the fuel pump and the fuel injectors get their power from the same relay, generally. The ECM provides a ground signal to the injectors rather than power. So, it's pretty likely that if your fuel pump is running, your injectors have power, too. Of course, I don't have the Volvo wiring diagram in front of me. It's just a generalization.
In picture 6 of 9 on Photobucket, what's that component in the center of the screen with the two wire connector? One green wire and one white.
Anything to do about none of the ECM connections having continuity with ground?
That could be a red herring at this point. We haven't yet determined that this is an electrical problem, let alone determined which criteria is absent to run the car. Checking the ECM and its wiring is a step that's further down the diagnostic path than where we're at, currently. You can find tons of stuff wrong with any car before you've found the malfunction that's causing your concern if you start off that broadly.
To start, you've got to narrow down what needs to happen to start the car and which of those criteria is met and which isn't. Of course, the wiring needs to be intact but you can't really start there. You'll wind up exploring and fixing problems that aren't necessarily relevant to your no-start condition.
Don't get me wrong, though. It's weird that there wouldn't be a ground in ECM harness and I'm not discounting its potential as one of the problems this car may have. I just wouldn't focus on it until I had narrowed down the failure that's occuring. You could get side-tracked by every broken wire and bad ground in this car, fix all of them and the car still not start. Basics first.
As I watched the fuel rail flex during that attempt I stopped before making things Much Worse.
Don't be afraid. They're plenty flexible. I've bent a few and bent them back with no consequence. You're going to have to grit your teeth and give it some force. Flexing is fine, crimping and splitting isn't.
It's really important to know the true state of fuel delivery before you go any further.
but is in the engine compartment on the left side.
I know, it's dumb and it's universal that "left" is "left, as sitting in the driver's seat" but check the "other left." Just in case.
posted by Jon-o at 3:19 PM on October 7, 2009
They could be talking about a fusible link where the fuse is basically a fail point in the wire itself with no outward appearance of a fuse or bulge in the wire. That'd be unusual, however, and the manual would be specific about that in its description.
But, in my experience with European cars, the fuel pump and the fuel injectors get their power from the same relay, generally. The ECM provides a ground signal to the injectors rather than power. So, it's pretty likely that if your fuel pump is running, your injectors have power, too. Of course, I don't have the Volvo wiring diagram in front of me. It's just a generalization.
In picture 6 of 9 on Photobucket, what's that component in the center of the screen with the two wire connector? One green wire and one white.
Anything to do about none of the ECM connections having continuity with ground?
That could be a red herring at this point. We haven't yet determined that this is an electrical problem, let alone determined which criteria is absent to run the car. Checking the ECM and its wiring is a step that's further down the diagnostic path than where we're at, currently. You can find tons of stuff wrong with any car before you've found the malfunction that's causing your concern if you start off that broadly.
To start, you've got to narrow down what needs to happen to start the car and which of those criteria is met and which isn't. Of course, the wiring needs to be intact but you can't really start there. You'll wind up exploring and fixing problems that aren't necessarily relevant to your no-start condition.
Don't get me wrong, though. It's weird that there wouldn't be a ground in ECM harness and I'm not discounting its potential as one of the problems this car may have. I just wouldn't focus on it until I had narrowed down the failure that's occuring. You could get side-tracked by every broken wire and bad ground in this car, fix all of them and the car still not start. Basics first.
As I watched the fuel rail flex during that attempt I stopped before making things Much Worse.
Don't be afraid. They're plenty flexible. I've bent a few and bent them back with no consequence. You're going to have to grit your teeth and give it some force. Flexing is fine, crimping and splitting isn't.
It's really important to know the true state of fuel delivery before you go any further.
but is in the engine compartment on the left side.
I know, it's dumb and it's universal that "left" is "left, as sitting in the driver's seat" but check the "other left." Just in case.
posted by Jon-o at 3:19 PM on October 7, 2009
Response by poster: OK, two data points.
Got the fuel supply line off. Liquid Wrench and a couple box wrenches instead of crescents did the trick. 30 seconds of cranking got me about a quarter-cup of gasoline. Obviously, there's a fuel supply problem.
Pulled a spark plug and c-clamped it to the engine block; no spark at the plug when cranking. Second problem, no spark.
Next steps:
posted by chazlarson at 5:32 PM on October 7, 2009
Got the fuel supply line off. Liquid Wrench and a couple box wrenches instead of crescents did the trick. 30 seconds of cranking got me about a quarter-cup of gasoline. Obviously, there's a fuel supply problem.
Pulled a spark plug and c-clamped it to the engine block; no spark at the plug when cranking. Second problem, no spark.
Next steps:
- Check main fuel pump connections and output
- check fuel filter
posted by chazlarson at 5:32 PM on October 7, 2009
Awesome! I know it's bad news to find something broken, but any result is a good thing during diagnosis.
That's how I'd follow up on the fuel delivery issue. You should be able to blow through the fuel filter. I know, it's nasty and gas is gross, but if you can't blow through the fuel filter in the direction of fuel travel, then it's clogged. Try it with a wedge of lime ;)
Next, I'd pull the distributer cap off and make sure there's no obvious corrosion or anything, since you've already verified the coil's within spec.
posted by Jon-o at 6:05 PM on October 7, 2009
That's how I'd follow up on the fuel delivery issue. You should be able to blow through the fuel filter. I know, it's nasty and gas is gross, but if you can't blow through the fuel filter in the direction of fuel travel, then it's clogged. Try it with a wedge of lime ;)
Next, I'd pull the distributer cap off and make sure there's no obvious corrosion or anything, since you've already verified the coil's within spec.
posted by Jon-o at 6:05 PM on October 7, 2009
Response by poster: In picture 6 of 9 on Photobucket, what's that component in the center of the screen with the two wire connector? One green wire and one white.
Oh, missed this question.
That appears to be just a connection from one harness to another. There's nothing inside it but two pins on one side and two sockets on the other.
posted by chazlarson at 6:19 PM on October 7, 2009
Oh, missed this question.
That appears to be just a connection from one harness to another. There's nothing inside it but two pins on one side and two sockets on the other.
posted by chazlarson at 6:19 PM on October 7, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
The nice thing about Volvo mechanics (although, maybe not dealers) is that they tend to understand what workhorses Volvos are and that they last much longer than any normal car should, so many of them are good at foraging at junkyards and finding used parts for cheap, rather than buying newer parts and charging you lots for it. My old one (in Vancouver BC, no help to you, unfortunately) used to do small fixes for free, including when I finally brought my second Volvo to the great junkyard in the sky and the electrical for the fuel pump crapped out on the way there.
Hmm... might be best to get your daughter a nice AAA membership for her license celebration too.
posted by urbanlenny at 10:52 AM on September 29, 2009