Waking Lifestyles

September 23, 2009 11:35 AM

Is lucid dreaming real, or fiction? Are its practitioners and advocates fringe scientists, spiritualists or charlatans? (or all three in mixed proportion)

On the one hand, there have been studies that seem to verify it (from wikipedia):

"During the 1980s, further scientific evidence to confirm the existence of lucid dreaming was produced as lucid dreamers were able to demonstrate to researchers that they were consciously aware of being in a dream state (again, primarily using eye movement signals).[9] Additionally, techniques were developed which have been experimentally proven to enhance the likelihood of achieving this state"

On the other hand, all of this research seems to have been conducted by a single psychologist , who now runs a Institute which sells many expensive machines to help you Lucid Dream or Lucid Dream in style. This strikes me as awfully convenient, and similar to other parapsychology branches' suspect techniques, yet even Skeptic's Dictionary can't find anything amiss with his practices.

What is the mainstream opinion of this area of research among psychologists and neurologists? Does Lucid Dreaming prove anything interesting about the nature of dreams or is a meaningless party trick?

(Previous threads on MF and AskMe have focused on LD anecdotes and How-tos, rather than its scientific explanation. It's clear that many many people can Lucid Dream on purpose using the methods described by Lucid Dream Institutes and others--but the anecdotes don't prove that the "experience" of consciousness and will as described by the dreamer aren't added, upon waking, to the random firings of neurons--fabricated memories of lucidity no different from any other dream. As fun as they sound [I've never purposefully induced LDs] I wonder if they are similar to the insights supposedly gained by drug experiences: the hallucinations contain the feeling of meaning, rather than any actual intellectual content, so why couldn't the memory of the dream be infused with the "feeling" that you were in control ex post facto the usual oneironautical process.)

Thanks! Hope this wasn't too long winded. I need a nap.

posted by Potomac Avenue to science & nature (43 comments total)

I'm not sure what you're asking that's different than the previous threads.

I lucid dream plenty. When I was a teenager, I realized that my normal state of dreaming was different from how other people described theirs. Then I read about lucid dreaming, and realized that's what I did naturally. So no, it isn't fake.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:37 AM on September 23

I lucid dream regularly, consistent with the description in the page you linked to. So yes, it's real.
posted by The World Famous at 11:40 AM on September 23

All of my dreams are lucid dreams, and I was in my 20s before I learned that not everybody could do this or was doing this. I'm not a practitioner, advocate, fringe scientist, spiritualist, charlatan, or hallucinogenic-drug user. I see no benefit to doing this, other than it makes nightmares not scary.

But, you are looking for proof, not anecdotes, beyond the studies you cite in which you thing the results (REM) were fabricated after the people woke up?
posted by Houstonian at 11:42 AM on September 23

... but the anecdotes don't prove that the "experience" of consciousness and will as described by the dreamer aren't added, upon waking, to the random firings of neurons ...

If you're question is at the level of "I know they think they're lucid dreaming, but are they actually lucid dreaming?" science can't help you at the moment. Ask again in a few years/decades/aeons when we have cracked the neural code of consciousness.
posted by memebake at 11:43 AM on September 23

OK sorry if I was unclear:

I'm aware that many people have experienced this as described. My questions are:

"What is the mainstream opinion of this area of research (specifically of Stephen LaBerge) among psychologists and neurologists?"

"Do they think LD is relevant?"

"What do these scientists think is happening during Lucid Dreaming?"
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:44 AM on September 23

I have always been able to lucid dream. I did not even know until a couple of years ago that this was something that people trained to do; I thought it was the norm.
posted by esmerelda_jenkins at 11:45 AM on September 23

I'm not sure what you're asking either. I had many moments of lucid dreaming as a teenager and then looked it up and went "Huh, so that's what I was doing." I thought *everyone* had terribly vivid, detailed dreams where they're an active participant and aware of the dream-state. I'm still kinda perplexed when people say they don't remember their dreams.

As for being a quack or scam ...you don't need to buy anything to lucid dream. Some meditation and practice (and okay MAYBE some B vitamins and melatonin, MAYBE) and you're get the hang of it.


It would be interesting, and I think what you're asking, is to see if there are any studies done during lucid dreaming vs regular sleep - does the brain activity change at all compared to a normal deep sleep?
posted by The Whelk at 11:46 AM on September 23

This academic paper (abstract) posits that it might be caused by shifts in the geomagnetic field. Here's an interview with the author of the paper (warning: Geocities)
posted by desjardins at 11:50 AM on September 23

Disclaimer: I am not a sleep researcher, although I have taken college biology and psychology courses that covered dreaming.

The act of dreaming isn't really all that understood. It seems to me like it's a very small field, and I'm not at all surprised if there's only one or two labs actively researching lucid dreaming.

I have found a critique of the "Senoi Dream Theory" by G. William Domhoff. The Senoi Dream Theory seems very closely tied to lucid dreaming.
posted by muddgirl at 11:51 AM on September 23

FWIW, I have sleep apnea and about 3/4 of my dreams are lucid.
posted by desjardins at 11:52 AM on September 23

I still don't understand the question, really. Is it legitimate? Does it happen? Yes, yes.

Regular dreams are barely understood at all, and what we do understand we're probably wrong about, so I don't think it's remotely possible to judge LD studies or practitioners as in any way inferior or less-valid than regular dream studies.

(About one half the dreams I remember are lucid. Other than the way they stick in my head more strongly for the rest of the day, I don't detect any difference in "value" or effect.)
posted by rokusan at 12:07 PM on September 23

I'd like to stitch together two responses that I feel are probably related:


"The act of dreaming isn't really all that understood. It seems to me like it's a very small field, and I'm not at all surprised if there's only one or two labs actively researching lucid dreaming."

And:

"...you don't need to buy anything to lucid dream..."
posted by hermitosis at 12:09 PM on September 23 [3 favorites has favorites]

desjardins: "FWIW, I have sleep apnea and about 3/4 of my dreams are lucid."

Me too.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 12:09 PM on September 23

About half the time I dream (as far as I consciously know), I can "direct" the dreams in small ways, like choosing the path of the plot, kind of . . . but I can't really choose the basic setting, time or main characters that start my dreams (though I can add to them.) I don't know I'm aware that I am dreaming, just that I can "make choices" in some of my dreams. It doesn't seem to have any relevance or importance or impact on anything at all. I thought that's just the way dreams go. I tend to remember these active dreams more than the passive ones.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 12:10 PM on September 23

I studied cognitive science in university. In one of my classes, the subject of lucid dreaming came up and the professor said that he found the topic interesting on a personal level, but not any more interesting than regular dreaming on a professional level.
posted by 256 at 12:13 PM on September 23

There is also this article in which the writer sets out to answer this same question.
posted by a.steele at 12:14 PM on September 23

If you dig around the references of the research papers, articles and chapters LaBerge has available on his website, it's clear that he is not the only person who has done research in this area.

There seems to be a pretty distinct division between the scientific research (the stuff that could get published in peer-reviewed journals) and the claims made for what actually achieving lucid dreaming can do for your life. The fact that the latter may be icky new-age hand-wavey doesn't have to mean that there is anything wrong with the research on the reality and techniques of achieving lucid dreaming itself.

I would say, if there were any sort of comprehensive studies that demonstrated general psychological benefits of lucid dreaming, I'm pretty sure LaBerge would be trumpeting them from his website. He's got $2200 Hawaii seminars to sell, after all.

As a final note, there has been a significant amount of research that provided intriguing suggestions of the potential psychological benefits of guided hallucinogenic drug experiences, before the massive and primarily political/cultural backlashes that largely shut down these areas of research. I mean, is there really a scientific definition of "meaningfulness?" If you're to claim that someone is being fooled by the "the feeling of meaning" in a drug experience, who's to say we aren't all being fooled by the the feeling of meaning in every aspect of life? For that matter, how am I supposed to believe or demonstrate that my perception of volition in all the waking events of my history were not in fact "the "feeling" that [I was] in control ex post facto"?!

I should probably mention that I'm pretty sure I'm running a fever right now
posted by nanojath at 12:18 PM on September 23 [3 favorites has favorites]

Just another anecdote, but as a child I found that if I closed my eyes within a dream, I would see a certain spiral pattern. This was proof that I was dreaming, and then I could do whatever I wanted, like fly, after that.
posted by StickyCarpet at 12:30 PM on September 23 [1 favorite has favorites]

To get to the root of what I think you're asking, is it possible that "lucid dreams" are actually just "regular" dreams that get imbued with a "feeling" of lucidity upon waking? Yes, that's probably a possibility, but as several other people have pointed out, even "normal" dreaming is still quite poorly understood, and there probably isn't a definitive way of saying "yes," "no," or "sometimes" just yet, because the research simply hasn't gotten that far.
posted by infinitywaltz at 12:30 PM on September 23

muddgirl: Thanks that site is very helpful!

From page 5 of that study:

In the 1980s, claims by enthusiasts for lucid dreaming, such as Stephen LaBerge, raised the hope that lucid dreaming can lead to dream control, as it allegedly does for LaBerge himself, who was by far the most successful subject in his various studies.[13] However, the few other systematic studies that exist do not give much support to this hope. In one such study, for example, experienced lucid dreamers were instructed to turn on a light in the dream. Only two of sixteen subjects reported that they were successful.[14] There have been few attempts since the early 1990s to demonstrate dream control during lucid dreaming, where the emphasis is now on becoming and staying lucid to enjoy what unfolds.

As against these few hopeful glimmers in a few studies, there is stronger evidence that dreams cannot be controlled even to a small extent within dream groups or experimental situations using Stewart's principles. Two of the earliest leaders of Senoi dream groups, Joel Latner and Meredith Sabini, wrote as follows in an article that is very positive toward dream discussion groups as a way of heightening personal sensitivity and enhancing creativity:

We have had scant success with instructed dreaming, but we have harvested some fruits in them. One of us has awakened from a dream with artwork patterns which could be carried out in pastels, and the other has awakened with lines, words, or music, or both, for songs he was writing.[15]

Ironically, a strong piece of negative evidence comes from a 1974 study by Garfield herself. In this study a good dream recaller spent five months trying to increase the frequency with which his hands appeared in dreams. (Casteñada claimed that his mythical sorcerer, Don Juan, often focused on his hands while dreaming.) The dreamer also spent twelve months trying to increase the frequency of flying dreams. But the frequency of hand images stayed the same and the frequency of flying dreams rose only from 2 to 4 percent. Garfield attempts to rescue these findings by claiming that some of the hand dreams became more vivid and some of the flying dreams included intense sensations, but the frequencies speak for themselves against her after-the-fact interpretations.[16]

Two very careful and detailed studies of dream control by psychologists David Foulkes and M. L. Griffin were also unable to report any positive results. In the first study, twenty three participants were taught the Stewart control techniques as described in Garfield's book. They were asked to dream about a randomly assigned target selected from a list of six dream suggestions. They kept daily records of the dreams they remembered over ten consecutive nights. Two independent judges attempted to match the dream reports with the target suggestions. Their matchings did not exceed what would be expected by chance.[17]

The second study used twenty-nine highly motivated students who claimed some previous success in dream control or great interest in the topic. They too tried to dream about targets from a list of six dream suggestions. This time, however, the chosen targets were more carefully monitored by the experimenters "so as to be better equated for emotional tone, amount of detailed elaboration of content, and degree of specific personal relevance." This study also covered ten nights, but this time subjects were allowed to pick the nights on which they felt they were most likely to be able to control their dreams. The subjects reported an average of seven dreams. Four independent judges attempted to match these dreams to the target suggestions. Once again, the correct matches did not exceed what would be expected by chance. The authors reached the following conclusion:

These results cannot, of course, "disprove" the possibility of deliberate pre-sleep dream control. They do indicate, however, that if such control is possible, it must be much more difficult to achieve than enthusiasts such as Garfield generally intimate.[18]

A similar lack of results was reported in a laboratory study by a team of Canadian researchers, who assessed physiological reactions as well as dream content. In this study, seven females and three males aged nineteen to twenty-nine were instructed to either increase or decrease their emotional involvement in their dreams on the fourth and sixth nights of seven consecutive nights in the sleep laboratory. There was a slight increase in the variability of heart rate and respiration on experimental nights, but dream content measures did not show the anticipated changes in emotionality. The authors concluded that their instructions induced stress, but no changes in the dreams.[19]

Later on from the Conclusions page:

Fifth, there is no good evidence that dream control is possible using Stewart's techniques. Sixth, there is evidence that the frequency of nightmares can be reduced, which can be construed as a form of dream control, but the techniques are very different than those proposed by Stewart.

No evidence against, no evidence for.

From a different study by the same person:

"The Question of "Lucid Dreaming"

The phenomenon of becoming aware of a dream while it is ongoing enjoyed a flurry of attention and speculation in the 1980s under the morally toned label of "lucid dreaming," implying a superior or elite status for "lucid dreamers," and efforts were made to link it to meditation and other altered states of consciousness (Gackenbach & Bosveld, 1989; LaBerge, 1985). While often remarked upon in books on dreams in the pre-laboratory era, lucid dreaming could not be studied systematically until it was shown in the laboratory that it occurs during REM (LaBerge, Nagel, Dement, & Zarcone, 1981). Although there have been too few people studied in the laboratory to establish the frequency of lucid dreaming, there are laboratory and non-laboratory studies suggesting that the degree of self-awareness and sense of conscious control can vary greatly from person to person and even within any given lucid dream (Barrett, 1992). However, as Foulkes (1990b, p. 121) notes, much more laboratory work needs to be done concerning "the conditions under which certain kinds of generic and autobiographical knowledge prove to be accessible during dreaming in the service of an ongoing comprehension and evaluation of dream events."

If dreaming is the form that consciousness takes during sleep (Foulkes, 1999), and if changes in the neural network for dreaming underlie different dreaming states, then lucid dreaming may be a product of a dream state in which the higher-order neural patterns that give human beings "core consciousness" and an "autobiographical self" are more active than usual (Damasio, 1999). This speculation is consistent with Rechtschaffen's (1997) use of the confabulations caused by frontal lobe injuries to argue that the loss of reflective awareness in dreams is due to the lack of frontal lobe activity. It also fits with the finding that higher levels of alpha activity during REM are related to lucid dream reports (Ogilvie, 1982; Tyson, Ogilvie, & Hunt, 1984), and with the fact that self-awareness during REM is associated with "phasic" (intermittent) activation within the REM period (Bradley, Hollifield, & Foulkes, 1992). The content of lucid dreams also has a more "realistic" nature, which would be expected from this line of reasoning (Gackenbach, 1988).

Then, too, it is noteworthy that dream reports in an exploratory PET scan study of l2 male participants showed a greater sense of control when the medial frontal cortex is more active, and a greater sense of things being out of control when the amygdala is most active (Shapiro et al., 1995). There is also non-laboratory evidence suggesting that the neural network for dreaming includes more frontal cortex during lucid dreaming: they seem to occur most frequently in the home setting after an early morning awakening-between 5 and 6:30 a.m.-- that is followed by imagery rehearsal and a conscious attempt to be aware of dreaming upon falling back to sleep (LaBerge, 1985). Thus, the new question of interest is the overall state of the neural network for dreaming during the experience of lucid dreaming, and how that overall state relates to indicators of REM and Stage II NREM (Hobson et al., 2000a, p. 1020; Hobson et al., 2000b. p. 837)."

So it seems like the jury is still out on A. Whether dream control is possible, B. What is physically occurring during reported LD... and that research into this area has been stalled since 1981. Bummers!

Nanojath: You raise very good points about the unknown nature of consciousness currently, but: "For that matter, how am I supposed to believe or demonstrate that my perception of volition in all the waking events of my history were not in fact "the "feeling" that [I was] in control ex post facto"?!"

This you can demonstrate that LD is like consciousness by manipulating your body willfully during a dream given a pre-existing set of instructions, OR by demonstrating some out of the ordinary brain activity during Lucid Dreaming or various other methods described above. I can prove reasonably well that I am conscious while awake.

As to your fever, I slept for about 45 minutes this morning so this subject is quite relevant to my interests as well. If someone performed a consciousness exam on me right now I'm not sure what the results would be.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 12:31 PM on September 23

Everyone who claims to be able to have lucid dreams -- to be able to consciously direct the dream experience -- forgets one simple fact.

You're dreaming.

Maybe you're dreaming that you can direct the dream.

This is also known as the butterfly dream.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 12:40 PM on September 23

I'm the author of that Everything2 writeup (apologies for the terrible style--I was 14). You're probably right that LaBerge is practically the only researcher in this, and yeah, he's a bit of a sellout, but at least some of that original work was done with William C. Dement, practically the inventor of modern sleep medicine. (I seem to remember reading something of Dement's where he talked about personally staying up to watch Laberge and his eye signals; maybe I was skimming his book.)

Outside of research, a lot of Laberge's stuff puts off a vibe of new age flakery--not least the profiteering--but I've never actually read anything of his where he came off as anything less than a hard-boiled materialist. Don't quote me on this, but I don't think there is a significant contingency in the research community that denies the phenomenon at this point.
posted by abcde at 12:48 PM on September 23 [1 favorite has favorites]

Dont we distinguish between lucid dreaming and dreams as meaningful? If dreams are not very important, worthwhile psychologicall (by understanding them), then lucid dreaming issimply a way of having that which does not mean very much...or am I way off on this?
posted by Postroad at 1:04 PM on September 23

I have sleep apnea and I rarely remember my dreams. I've also tried for years to train myself to lucid dream and I've failed. I'm so incredibly jealous of you folks who can do it naturally.
posted by elsietheeel at 1:09 PM on September 23

Everyone who claims to be able to have lucid dreams -- to be able to consciously direct the dream experience

consciously directing the dream experience isn't what I thought lucid dreaming was - you can usually direct the dream experience partially, or at least think you are, or whatever. Lucid dreaming is when you realize somewhere in the dream that, oh, this is a dream, I'm actually asleep and this is imaginary, therefore, I can fly or dismiss dangers, or make-out with anyone or have a cigarette, or any other things that are impossible or more complicated when enacted outside the mind.

I've only done it a few times, but it's neat. One time I woke up soon after I realized it, but I woke up into what turned out to be another dream, though I didn't catch on that time.

Dreaming you're a butterfly is cool too, but it's basically the opposite of a lucid dream - being so convinced by the experience of the dream that even after you wake you wonder if perhaps it was real...

As for 'adding that feeling later', it isn't just a feeling, since there is a piece of discernible information conveyed - "I am in a dream". If that information can be added later, I think that's a bigger problem for consciousness scientists than how one can become aware of it when it's true.
posted by mdn at 1:33 PM on September 23 [1 favorite has favorites]

...the "feeling" that you were in control ex post facto...

This is an issue that goes WAY beyond lucid dreaming. See: Free Will vs. Determinism.
posted by Benjy at 1:43 PM on September 23 [2 favorites has favorites]

Lucid dreaming is when you realize somewhere in the dream that, oh, this is a dream, I'm actually asleep and this is imaginary, therefore, I can fly or dismiss dangers,

You're missing the point. When you say you can "dismiss dangers," you think you're consciously doing this by some kind of rational choice. I'm saying that the choice itself is an illusion, too.

Here's an anecdote -- I once asked a stoner buddy of mine if his cat ever got stoned from the second-hand smoke.

"I'll never know for sure," he said. "The cat can't get stoned by himself. If the cat is stoned, it means I'm stoned, too. And if I'm stoned, there's no way I can accurately judge whether he is stoned."

You can't ever know if you're directing the dream ... because you're dreaming, too.

This is also similar to the brain-in-a-vat philosophical quandary. How do you know you're actually doing anything? It could all be an illusion. And when you're dreaming ... well ... it really is an illusion, by definition.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 1:50 PM on September 23

Calling Meatbomb... As I recall, he's got a tattoo on his hand that's supposed to help with this, like I guess if the tattoo isn't there when he looks at his hand, then he knows he's dreaming.
posted by StickyCarpet at 2:13 PM on September 23

CPB, you're ignoring the fact that in a lucid dream you are aware it's a dream and make choices based upon that. That can't be imagined, and when you remember realizing that something was a dream... well that's pretty genuine, I think.

The ability to "direct" it is a second step, some of the time, but not the point. It's the awareness itself that makes it lucid, not the choice-making.
posted by rokusan at 2:19 PM on September 23

CPB, you're ignoring the fact that in a lucid dream you are aware it's a dream and make choices based upon that.

I think you're assuming you are separate from the dream. Your dream self, or perceived dream consciousness, is part of the dream.

Oooo, trippy!
posted by lunalaguna at 2:36 PM on September 23

On the other hand, all of this research seems to have been conducted by a single psychologist , who now runs a Institute which sells many expensive machines to help you Lucid Dream or Lucid Dream in style.

The experiment seems sound to me and considering dreaming is just the byproduct of your mind, I dont see why a micro-awakening is so out of the realm of possibility. As far as running his own business, I bet it pays better than what he was doing before. You can judge the research by the marketing his company does.

I also read that Laberge's experiment was independently replicated by a European elsewhere, but Laberge gets the credit because he did it a bit earlier.
posted by damn dirty ape at 2:42 PM on September 23

but the anecdotes don't prove that the "experience" of consciousness and will as described by the dreamer aren't added, upon waking, to the random firings of neurons--fabricated memories of lucidity no different from any other dream.

Aha! I've thought about this for an hour or so now and I think I've finally figured out what it is about this statement that's bothering me: it doesn't account for continuity of consciousness. You seem to think that all lucid dreams are of the sort where the person wakes up in the morning, thinks back to a dream he had that night, and remembers being "conscious" during it. If that were the case, I could buy that the perception of consciousness was still only part of the dream. However, I have maintained that consciousness clear through into awakeness, and the transition has been seamless.

One key thing about lucid dreaming is you can choose to wake yourself up. When I've chosen to wake myself up in the past, I noticed no change between the consciousness I experienced during the lucid dream, and the consciousness I experienced immediately afterwards when I was verifiably awake. If I were only dreaming I was conscious then dream-emulation of consciousness, so to speak, is just as good as the real thing, when compared side by side like that.

Also, I'm sure that while I'm deciding whether to wake myself up or not, I'm not actually awake at that point because I can still see the dream world in exquisite detail. When I'm awake with my eyes are closed, I can't see anything; I'm very bad at "picturing things in my mind's eye."

So I imagine that whatever else is happening in my brain, the same machinery that generates consciousness during real life is operational when I'm lucid dreaming.
posted by losvedir at 3:03 PM on September 23 [1 favorite has favorites]

I think you're assuming you are separate from the dream. Your dream self, or perceived dream consciousness, is part of the dream.

Exactly. You are not outside the dream looking in, although you may think you are.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 3:03 PM on September 23

I disagree. I have woken up and held a conversation with my husband about the unsatisfying dream I just had and I have then gone back asleep to change the outcome of the dream to a more satisfying end. This usually happens with nightmares I will wake up anxious and I will talk to my husband about my dream, he's usually awakened by my tossing and turning. He will tell me I am making no sense and that I'm still dreaming and I will get really agitated and frustrated that he doesn't understand me until I finally realize he's right I was still dreaming so then I roll over and go back to sleep and I start in the middle of the nightmare I just had and I manifest a way out of whatever bind I was in (I fly to get away from a chase, I choose not to walk near the edge of the cliff so I won't fall, I make sure the locked door will open in the alley so I can hide from the bad guy, I put clothes in the backseat of the car so that I don't show up to work naked).

This is the only time I can fall asleep with the intention of altering my dream, and that is what Lucid dreaming is as I understand it. I can't decide I'm going to dream about rabbits and butterflies before I go to bed I can only force a dream I'm still sort of in the middle of.

I have also had the experience of thinking that I realized I'm dreaming and then altering the dream but because I don't have the external input from a third party there to tell me I'm dreaming I'm not sure those instances are truly lucid as you point out I might have dreamed I was dreaming.

My mother and my brother can also wake up in the middle of dreams and hold conversations. It's somewhat of a family joke, our spouses like to swap stories about the crazy words and stories we tell when we're half-dreaming.
posted by thewalrusispaul at 3:39 PM on September 23

Well said losvedir - that's what I was trying to say!
posted by thewalrusispaul at 3:45 PM on September 23

"Do they think LD is relevant?"

Relevant to what? It's just enjoyable and interesting. Its not astral projection or some crap like that. I'm not a great lucid dreamer, but I've had it happen on occasion.

anecdotes don't prove that the "experience" of consciousness and will as described by the dreamer aren't added, upon waking, to the random firings of neurons--fabricated memories of lucidity

You could just as well ask the same question about waking consciousness and the experience of free will. It's an unsolved question.
posted by DarkForest at 4:22 PM on September 23

losvedir: Also, there's the wake-induced techniques, so it's possible to go from awake to lucidly dreaming to awake again, which seems even clearer-cut.

So if you admit that people can do that and still say, "but dude, what if they were just dreaming that they were conscious for that middle bit?" then there's no real reason not to go for the entire "dude, what if we're all just imagining that we're conscious right now?" skeptical argument. In which case you should probably start growing a beard and apply for a position at Tufts.
posted by abcde at 5:04 PM on September 23

I think you're assuming you are separate from the dream. Your dream self, or perceived dream consciousness, is part of the dream.

Exactly. You are not outside the dream looking in, although you may think you are.

I used to, and still get (with much less frequency) really horrifying nightmares. Epic Nightmares, like all night long. Not just something bad happens, but Something Bad Happens and you can NEVER ESCAPE dreams. I'd wake up crying. The big one was opening my front door and getting shot by a faceless person, in the gut, and just bleeding out and trying to crawl to the phone for the rest of the dream. So when I told people about this and I told them I lucid dreamed, they went all "uh why not lucid dream your way out of the nightmare?" And I thought that was CRAZY. The whole point of the Nightmare is that you're No Longer In Control. I'm used to being somehow in charge in my dreams, the Nightmares are the lack of control, or at least the lack of awareness that the reality I'm in is an unreal one.

But I tried it, I started to do more direct lucid dreaming methods before sleep. I then had two Nightmares, and both of them were stopped cause I started to question the reality of the dream. I'd say "Why are we on this boat? How did we get here?" or "What are we doing here, can you remember coming here, who are these people and how do I know them? What am I doing *tomorrow?*" I got into heated arguments with dreampeople about the nature of the reality, surely if I can turn the whole world PINK by thinking, it can't be a real world? These questions would actually END the dreamstate, I'd wake up right away, but I'd have stopped the nightmare, and then be able to sleep normally and start up another dream cycle.

Sooo..data point.
posted by The Whelk at 5:28 PM on September 23

There's this PhD thesis on how to use lucid dreaming to cure debilitating nightmares.
I'm sure he reviews literature.
posted by jouke at 5:29 PM on September 23

i lucid dream often....someone once told me to "look at your hands" in your dreams and that is how you gain control. i have dreams that i literally go back to the next night...its strange...as i'm falling asleep i go right back to the dream i left off the night before. sometimes this is bad (actually i usually have disturbing dreams). i've often wondered if taking anti-depressants impacts lucid dreaming or dreaming in general? thanks for asking this question because the topic is fascinating and plagues me every night i go back to uncomfortable dreams....
posted by dmbfan93 at 7:08 PM on September 23

I sometimes experience sleep paralysis, where you are in the REM phase of sleep, but become conscious and aware of your surroundings, often with some hallucinatory accompaniment. This can be pretty scary at first, but after a while if you realize you are in a partial dream state, you can then decide to fight it (often leading to waking) or ride it out.
I think it is similar in lucid dreams, where you become somewhat conscious, but you just happen to be deeper in REM sleep. I have found that most of my lucid dreams are short lived, with the awareness usually coming into effect more toward the waking end of the dream.

There is a technique to help induce lucid dreaming, which consists of a light mask connected to a sensor, that flashes lights into your eyes when it senses you have reached REM sleep. The idea being that you will be able to see these bright flashes in your dream and this will signal to you that you are dreaming. I think that if something from the waking world can reach you while you are dreaming and trigger in you a response (oh, the lights are flashing! I must be dreaming now!), then you have just made a conscious realization.
posted by orme at 7:45 PM on September 23

I trained myself how to recognize the dream state and I used to do a lot of lucid dreaming, but after a while I just got bored with it. I know it's a dream world you can do anything, fly, change the story, etc; but there is always the chance that a change will cause an accidental wakeup. So even though many nights I recognize I'm dreaming out of habits formed long ago; I don't try to change anything. For a while I still edited my nightmares, but recently I've even let those go as well. I've considered the fact that this could be some projected memory back over the dreams but it seems odd to me that my brain would choose to create this memory of realizing I was dreaming but then choosing to ignore it.
posted by humanfont at 8:28 PM on September 23

My lucidity in dreams is brief, but always takes the same form: I suddenly think to myself "hey, is this a dream?" Then I test this by trying to jump upwards, and attempt to remain hanging in the air without falling. It's cartoon physics! If I can stay up, then yes, I'm dreaming. Usually I then lose the lucidity and go back into the dream. But occasionally I spend the rest of the dream moving around looking out over everyone's heads, with a large empty space between the bottom of my feet and the floor. :) Once I ended up on a gentle slope outside, and found that I had no friction against the ground. I ended up sliding downhill at high speed, trying to somehow "steer" to avoid hitting obstacles.

Occasionally I kept a dream journal, or at least tried to remember my last dream while shifting into wakefulness. Once I had a big shock. As I was waking up, the very sensible dream sequence I was remembering suddenly morphed while I was watching, and turned entirely into fractured symbolism and irrational actions. I lost all memory the original dream, which had a realistic story line, and it was replaced by bizarre nonsense. So do I now retreat into solipsism, and stop trusting all memories of dreams? No, instead I learned to keep a more solid hold on the memories as I'm waking, so they don't suddenly do the "twist" thing. Once I knew the trick, it became a habit, and I don't think I've had any bizarre/crazy types of dreams ever since.

PS

Carlos Castaneda sent the entire New Age subculture off in the wrong direction when Juan Matus told him to "find his own dick" during dreams, but they decided to alter this for the book; instead directing people to find their hands while dreaming. Castaneda also admitted that the majority of the events in his books were extremely erotic, but he couldn't get this past publishers of the era, so he censored it.
posted by billb at 8:50 PM on September 23