Sharing outdoor areas with smokers?

June 30, 2009 2:08 PM

My work team changed offices. Now we are in a complex with courtyard areas where people seem to frequently smoke. There are even ashtrays right outside the office doors (probably breaking the 20 foot rule). What can I do as a non-smoker who just wants to eat her lunch outside in the San Diego sun?

My understanding of the CA anti-smoking law is that you can't smoke within 20ft of the entrance to a public building.

Well, that's kind of nebulous here. The entrances to the individual, privately rented office suites are within 20 feet of the areas where people smoke, as are the ashtrays and benches that are scattered about the courtyard and patio areas (on two different levels), which are maintained by the property management of the complex. One of these patios has seating for the cafeteria, and people also smoke there.

The only place where I can eat lunch that is not at my desk is outside in one of these patio/courtyard areas. Twice within a week, I have been eating and someone sat down and lit up right next to me. Both times I moved even though I was in the middle of eating and I was there first, because the smokers did not respond to polite suggestions that they smoke elsewhere.

The next step, as I see it, is to determine if these areas should really even be permissible smoking areas by the 20ft law. If they're not, I'd ask the building management to take away the ash trays and post signs. Is it the case that the whole office complex is considered private, even the patios and cafeteria area, and thus any area is a smoking area?

If I just have to share the patios with the smokers, is it rude to ask someone to go smoke somewhere else if they're ruining my lunch? Since it's the only place they can smoke, do I have to move any time I want to avoid it? What's the etiquette here?

posted by slow graffiti to human relations (20 comments total)

...the smokers did not respond to polite suggestions that they smoke elsewhere...

Have you tried being more assertive? It's not rude to ask them to move if they are bothering you.
posted by halogen at 2:11 PM on June 30 [2 favorites has favorites]

It may be helpful to define what polite suggestions that they smoke elsewhere means in this case.
posted by entropic at 2:12 PM on June 30

Me: "Can you please smoke somewhere else? I'm trying to eat my lunch."
Smoker: "Why should I move? It's allowed here."

I am all for letting people smoke anywhere they want that they don't inflict second hand smoke on other people, but in this case, that extends outdoors. Am I in the wrong?
posted by slow graffiti at 2:15 PM on June 30

I have no legal advice, but I will offer this just in case you don't have any legal legs to stand on to get the smoking to stop.

Try asking if it would be possible to get an enclosed building for people to smoke in. Especially if there are no cover areas, which at my university always meant that people would stand right outside the doors and use that as a covered space when it was raining. Makes the smokers happy because weather isn't an issue. Makes the non smokers happy because they won't have to deal with the smoke. Doesn't make management happy because they have to pay money for that to happen.

And no, it's not rude to ask someone to leave. I would say anything short of touching the person or their cigarette is fair game.
posted by theichibun at 2:17 PM on June 30

I am all for letting people smoke anywhere they want that they don't inflict second hand smoke on other people, but in this case, that extends outdoors. Am I in the wrong?

Smoker here! Just chiming in to say that no, you are not in the wrong, and those smokers who behave that way are fucking assholes that make us polite smokers look bad by association.
posted by Skot at 2:19 PM on June 30 [9 favorites has favorites]

"My understanding of the CA anti-smoking law is that you can't smoke within 20ft of the entrance to a public building."

Please note that this doesn't prohibit ashtrays in these areas. Unless you are a big fan of cigarette butt litter I wouldn't pressure anyone to remove the ashtrays or even move them away from the doors.
posted by Mitheral at 2:21 PM on June 30

Skot: "I am all for letting people smoke anywhere they want that they don't inflict second hand smoke on other people, but in this case, that extends outdoors. Am I in the wrong?

Smoker here! Just chiming in to say that no, you are not in the wrong, and those smokers who behave that way are fucking assholes that make us polite smokers look bad by association."

Word. I'd say some something if someone lit up next to me while I was eating, and I love cigarettes. :)
posted by Gravitus at 2:45 PM on June 30

I was raised that it is REALLY rude to start smoking in the same vicinity of someone eating, without asking first. So, even in my own home (where we smoke indoors), I ask if others (even if they are also smokers) mind if I smoke, while they are eating. So, I don't think you are rude to be more assertive.

Perhaps if you kind of watch out and see if there are any "regulars" that are decent human beings that you can make some kind of truce with? People are pretty regular about smoke breaks, so if you can take your lunch at the same time every day, you might find one or two people willing to compromise.
posted by bunnycup at 2:49 PM on June 30

If this was me I'd make sure that the next time I find myself in this situation it plays out like so:

Me: "Can you please smoke somewhere else? I'm trying to eat my lunch."
Smoker: "Why should I move? It's allowed here."
Me: "Suit yourself." Retrieve large battery powered fan from bag and set it on the table, blowing toward Smoker.

As you might imagine, I come close to getting my ass kicked from time to time.
posted by waxboy at 2:49 PM on June 30 [4 favorites has favorites]

The OP's in San Diego, which generally means the smoker's aren't trying to stay out of the rain.

Could you ask the property manager to designate one of the patios (probably the higher one, so you don't get smoke from below) and an area of the courtyard for smoking and then eat your lunch in the other areas?
posted by natabat at 3:07 PM on June 30

Sorry for being the voice of dissent, but I suggest that you just deal. Why should these others simply bow to your will? What happened to tolerance?

Given the plethora of anti-smoking laws that have recently been passed in most states, there remain few areas where smokers can do exactly what you describe: go out in the sun and have a smoke. If you absolutely can't deal with the smell of the smoke, you can always find somewhere else to eat. natabat's suggestion above is a good one. In the worst case that there's absolutely nowhere else you can go to eat that suits you, you could ask the property manager to jigger the designations and create a smoke-free area for you (in addition to all the other smoke-free areas the laws have already created for you).
posted by Maximian at 3:20 PM on June 30 [2 favorites has favorites]

I'll second Maximian's response. I don't smoke, but tend to have a bit of sympathy for those that do and are very restricted to where they can partake of their addiction without offending the masses.
posted by busboy789 at 4:21 PM on June 30

I believe the whole office park is probably privately owned, and that's why it's permissable. I agree with others that your best recourse is to ask the property managers (either directly or via your company's HR or Operations departments) to designate the cafeteria patio as smoke-free. You can mention that it's mainly used for eating and since it's adjacent to the cafeteria is the best place for that, and that there are many other smoking areas throughout the office park.

Even smokers don't like to eat and smoke, so it's bizarre to me that someone would be so rude when you politely asked them to move if you were sitting there first. Hopefully you can get this sorted out and not spend your lunch break playing musical avoid-the-smoke chairs or eating at your desk indoors.
posted by booknerd at 4:27 PM on June 30

there remain few areas where smokers can do exactly what you describe: go out in the sun and have a smoke

To which I, as a very occasional tobacco user with a strong aversion to having my hair and clothes reek of other people's cheap cigarettes, say hallelujah and roll on the revolution.

I would probably be far more tolerant about this if it were not for the prevalence of arseholes who will only avoid causing distress to those around them if they're not allowed to.

You could try

Me: "Can you please smoke somewhere else? I'm trying to eat my lunch."
Smoker: "Why should I move? It's allowed here."
Me: "Well, if you want it to stay allowed here, maybe you should learn not to be so boorish as to light up right next to people who are eating."
posted by flabdablet at 4:30 PM on June 30 [5 favorites has favorites]

I'm sorry these people are being rude, but I would also encourage you to try to see it from their point of view. The number of places one actually can legally smoke these days is so small that people who smoke may be a little defensive about them.

People used to be able to smoke in classrooms, offices, planes, trains, restaurants, bars... virtually anywhere. Now the number of places one is allowed to smoke is more or less restricted to (some) outdoor spaces, (some) homes and (some) cars. And that's fine, but being asked to voluntarily not smoke in one of the few places one is allowed to smoke is quite likely to get you some pushback.

You can eat lunch in a choice of locations (desk, cafeteria, outdoors); these people can only smoke in one. Turning up in this one location and asking people not to smoke in it is probably not a winning strategy.

I would suggest you try to get the patios divided, and if you can't... then yes, I do actually think that in this instance, the onus is on you to move.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:33 PM on June 30 [1 favorite has favorites]

And no, it's not rude to ask someone to leave. I would say anything short of touching the person or their cigarette is fair game.

What do you mean? Of course it's rude. Obviously you have the right to ask them to leave if you want, just as they have the right to say no. But that doesn't make it not rude.
posted by delmoi at 8:58 PM on June 30

Neither here nor there, but could you find a group of non-smoking, outdoor-loving, lunch-eating coworkers to eat at the same time with you? You would create an island of non-smokiness and would have some backup if you needed to polite ask the smokers to give you a little space. Other non-smoking lunch-eaters may join your group as well.

If this happens often enough you may just create a little non-official non-smoking lunch area. Think High School cafeteria where the cheerleaders and jocks sat at the same tables every day and the nerds at some others.
posted by FreezBoy at 6:30 AM on July 1

My suggestion is to keep a water gun handy to extinguish the offending cigarettes. (Yes, this kind of thing puts me in the same boat as waxboy.)

Seriously, though - it's important from a "herd effect" point of view that smokers be constantly reminded that what they're doing carries a social stigma. Over time, this effect has grown, and we need to keep the momentum rolling by annoying these people more frequently.
posted by Citrus at 6:33 AM on July 1 [1 favorite has favorites]

I feel like the etiquette is that they were there first, and as a newcomer you need to either roll with the established custom or else not go hang out where you don't enjoy the customary behavior.

I don't know if your work needs to maintain a friendly working relationship with neighbors in the complex, but if it does I would consider that if you are already known as the lady/guy who doesn't like the courtyard smoking and then management just happens to ban courtyard smoking because someone complained... well, I wouldn't go trying to borrow any office supplies.
posted by KAS at 11:44 AM on July 1

Report it to Cal-OSHA.

I completely disagree with the idea that you should suck it up and deal. Traditional etiquette says these smokers are behaving badly and rudely. Since they've already shown they don't care about behaving politely, take advantage of the fact that the law is on your side.
posted by Lexica at 12:46 PM on July 1 [1 favorite has favorites]