No, wearing Armani doesn't make you refined

June 30, 2009 4:26 AM

What specific traits do you look for in a person that say that s/he is refined?

So I was reading about polymaths yesterday, and while these polymaths (or a further development being a Renaissance Man) excelled intellectually, I'm wondering about the non-intellectual side of things as well.

What qualities in a person do you consider to be the most desirable, or show his/her refinement?

I'm looking for things that can be developed, not things that people are born with, so a natural good looks or sexual energy are out, but things like honor and erudition are in. At the risk of sounding a sexist, the term that springs to mind is gentleman

Sorry if this question is vague, but that's the best I could come up with.

posted by titantoppler to human relations (51 comments total)

Enunciation.
posted by Bardolph at 4:30 AM on June 30

Manners
posted by Chrysalis at 4:33 AM on June 30 [6 favorites has favorites]

Never using the word refined to describe themselves.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 4:34 AM on June 30 [21 favorites has favorites]

Good shoes.
posted by DarlingBri at 4:34 AM on June 30 [2 favorites has favorites]

Tact.
posted by le morte de bea arthur at 4:41 AM on June 30 [2 favorites has favorites]

Cordiality to everyone, especially waiters, shop clerks, etc.
posted by ocherdraco at 4:42 AM on June 30 [14 favorites has favorites]

Genuine politeness (i.e. not haughty, not forced).
posted by amyms at 4:43 AM on June 30 [4 favorites has favorites]

[To call somebody "Refined", like "Sophisticated", always seems like a dubious compliment to me. It seems like a mark of somebody who may be all about conveying an impressive appearance and the possible expense of real substance. Con-artists and pathologically insecure people can often do refinement well.]

Anyway, for me it is all about the sort of basic things that we would ideally expect kids to know by the time they are 10: saying please and thank you, mastering table manners, looking at people when they are talking to you, starting - balancing and stopping a conversation with grace, remembering people's names, personal hygiene and so on. This is really basic level stuff but most people are weak on some elements of this as adults - to the extent where they can develop skills.

If I had to pick one higher set of skills I would say it was knowing the art of letter writing.
posted by rongorongo at 4:47 AM on June 30

The "renaissance man" has a ton of talents, abilities, and knowledge. Good manners means knowing when to use those skills, and when to shut up. He may know a zillion things, but the key one is how to not look like a show-off jerk and not force information on people.
posted by aimedwander at 4:56 AM on June 30 [3 favorites has favorites]

Traditionally, I think refinement is used to describe people who enjoy the "finer" things in life. A cultivation of taste, manners, etc. I think this use of the word is quite different from the other use of the word, refinement as it relates to a social setting.

It's quite possible that a person can be refined in one sense, but not the other.

It sounds like you're referring to the latter use, based on your words "no, wearing Armani does not make you refined."

When people show (social) refinement, I feel they have a high level of self-awareness. They're very mindful of the others around them. Not because they wonder "does this person like me?" but because they wonder "am I offending or being unhelpful to this person?"

(I associate the opposite end of the spectrum--barbarism--with a person lacking the ability or desire to understand how he or she affects other people. Either they're ignorant, or they seriously don't care.)
posted by thisperon at 5:03 AM on June 30 [7 favorites has favorites]

It's a combination of things. Manner of speech, etiquette, posture*. It isn't something easily defined, but I suppose it's one of things where you'll only know when you have it.

*Especially posture. You can be the coolest, most good-looking dude, just oozing sophistication, wit, and charm, doing everything right, but if you are slouched over you FAIL.
posted by sephira at 5:16 AM on June 30 [1 favorite has favorites]

Poise is probably very important. Someone who is hunched all of the time or shuffles as they walk does not seem refined. Now, being refined and gentlemanly or ladylike does not mean that you are a polymath. Generally the two don't intersect all that often. Many polymaths like Wittgenstein didn't meet a lot of traits that you would consider refined. He looked dumpy, had a difficult personality, although he was rich.
posted by JJ86 at 5:21 AM on June 30 [2 favorites has favorites]

Enunciation

I'm not sure. Some of the most false people I've known have over-enunciated words so much that my teeth hurt from listening. It seems more like a cheap polish than a quality.

I'd say grace, or polite manners in even small things.

(It's easy to be gracious in big things because everyone is watching and expecting it. But in the small day to day dealings, when it would be just as easy to be rude or selfish... that's the tell, I think.)
posted by rokusan at 5:21 AM on June 30

They use fewer words and the ones they use are well thought-out and not rushed. They maintain their composure at all times. And they have a keen knowledge of history.
posted by allkindsoftime at 5:22 AM on June 30 [2 favorites has favorites]

Calm and level-headedness in difficult situations. Also, the ability to persuade with humour, tact and without aggression.
posted by maizurah at 5:30 AM on June 30 [1 favorite has favorites]

Inherited wealth.


Not the answer you were after? I'm sorry to tell you that words like refinement and sophistication have always been euphemisms for lucre. "Gentleman" the more so. Don't take my word for it, though; take that of Eddie Murphy et. al., who made in Trading Places one of the most wonderful movies about American class ever. "Look at that S car go!" Heh.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 5:38 AM on June 30 [7 favorites has favorites]

Woolly sweaters with horses on them. Also, that they own an actual stable of horses and various horse-related things.
posted by anniecat at 5:40 AM on June 30

Holds little finger in the air while drinking tea.
posted by zadcat at 5:44 AM on June 30 [2 favorites has favorites]

Equanimity.
posted by scblackman at 5:45 AM on June 30 [1 favorite has favorites]

Humility
posted by Pineapplicious at 5:45 AM on June 30

Impeccable grooming and well-fitting clothes -- a certain finish. Not merely good manners, but ease of manner. A well-modulated voice. Someone who is genuinely nice to and interested in others, whatever their means or occupation, without oozing noblesse oblige in a head-patting fashion. Someone who is interested in many topics, but only speaks on them if they're sure of the information. Someone who is at the same time self-sufficient and can fix their running toilet, replace a window pane and the like.

A basic lack of fuss is what I'm going for.
posted by jgirl at 5:54 AM on June 30 [7 favorites has favorites]

People who are refined are tactful, show careful consideration for others, and have excellent interpersonal skills. They have polished manners, have an easy dignity and poise, are fair-minded and unpretentious, and know how to behave and dress appropriately under all circumstances. They are articulate, cultured, educated and have discerning tastes.

Some practical applications of these skills are that refined people never call attention to a gaffe anyone made. They know how to make people feel at ease. They don't speak loudly in public or go on and on about themselves. They never brag, nor do they wallow in self-pity, nor do they rant. They aren't grasping or self-absorbed. They might wear an Armani but they'd certainly never mention that it was an Armani. They might wear thift shop clothes but the clothes would be clean, well-cared for, and carefully chosen so you'd never know their origin. They defuse a charged situation by treating an angry or upset person with an unbroken show of quiet good manners. They consistently take the high road whenever in conflict with anyone.

Some examples of refined people might include Audrey Hepburn, Barack Obama, and of course, Judith "Miss Manners" Martin.
posted by orange swan at 6:03 AM on June 30 [11 favorites has favorites]

Restraint.
posted by belau at 6:04 AM on June 30 [2 favorites has favorites]

Listening more than they speak--the kind of person who asks you about yourself and is (or appears) genuinely interested in your answers.
posted by peanut_mcgillicuty at 6:21 AM on June 30

"Refinement" feels kind of like a synonym for "affectation" to me. I think I know what you're getting at, but I find that people I know who possess so many of the qualities being listed in this thread (level-headedness, equanimity, manners, et cetera) acquired them through the influences of others during their upbringing... family, teachers, coaches, scout leaders, et cetera. While these are all qualities that I especially value in a friend or colleague, it wouldn't ever occur to me to call them "refined," because it's just the way they are.

On preview, also, what cellphone said.
posted by usonian at 6:24 AM on June 30

Inherited wealth.

You need not great sums of money to be well read, slow spoken, even-tempered, or hold the door for a lady. True gentlemen are not measured by the size of their bank accounts.
posted by allkindsoftime at 6:42 AM on June 30 [2 favorites has favorites]

They own gloves for every specific occasion.
posted by orme at 6:50 AM on June 30 [4 favorites has favorites]

Discretion: You know how some people will freely discuss in generous detail their ingrown toenail and their drinking exploits and their money complaints and what they think about what other people are wearing? That is not refined.

"Refinement" feels kind of like a synonym for "affectation" to me.

I think it's just the opposite. Affectation and pretention are showy and therefore indiscrete. In my experience and observation, an elemental aspect of having class is being unconcerned about having class.
posted by applemeat at 6:54 AM on June 30 [2 favorites has favorites]

well read, slow spoken, even-tempered, or hold the door for a lady

Yes, allkindsoftime, but if you do those things in tracksuit pants or in your work clothes, you're probably just a decent working class, well read, slow spoken, even-tempered, lady-door holder. Doing it without obvious markers of wealth makes you simply an ordinary human being.

I'm not saying it's nice that wealth defines masculinity so finely in our society, I'm just saying it does, and has done for hundreds of years at least. IMO, the better world starts with the last gentleman strangled in the guts of the last epicure.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 6:59 AM on June 30 [1 favorite has favorites]

How to be a Gentleman
posted by Axle at 7:00 AM on June 30

Refusal to gossip or listen to gossip.
posted by motsque at 7:08 AM on June 30 [1 favorite has favorites]

- Good shoes.
- A genuine interest in people and the world around them.
- Equally respectful of everywhere, whether it's their CEO or the busboy.
- An ability to find interesting aspects of any subject, even if its one for which they lack prior exposure.
- Knowing what they don't know, instead of thinking they know everything.
- An appreciation for quality details, rather than flashy facades.
- Even temperament, an ability to let things slide that upset other people.

JF Roxburgh, the first headmaster of Stowe school, said his goal was turning out young men who would be "acceptable at a dance and invaluable in a shipwreck." To some, that's the definition of refinement (though it treads also in the realm of "character."
posted by wfrgms at 7:12 AM on June 30 [7 favorites has favorites]

Manners, grace, self-confidence. And, importantly, not mocking others or calling out their mistakes in polite company. Nothing gives away one from the middle classes more than a mocking, underhanded insult or calling out someone's back pronunciation, taste in music, or whatever, in polite company.
posted by wackybrit at 7:21 AM on June 30 [1 favorite has favorites]

Inherited wealth.

It was really striking while watching last night's episode of Kathy Griffin: My Life on the D-List to see the titular star interacting with Paris Hilton in the latter's natural environment. Kathy is a vulgarian by trade, and while I wasn't expecting to see Paris play along, exactly--she clearly know she's not smart enough to trade quips--but she sort of existed in another dimension entirely.

I wouldn't have said she showed refinement at the time, but she was civil toward someone who has made fun of her at great length in public and she cheerfully expressed her interests without the slightest hint of approval-seeking. So I'm inclined to say that refinement is something of a composite quality: behaving as though you have the world's strongest safety net behind you and having the freedom to do as you please, but choosing to draw no attention to it and (unlike Paris) engaging intelligently and compassionately with those around you.
posted by kittyprecious at 7:24 AM on June 30

How they treat service people.
posted by The Whelk at 7:26 AM on June 30 [2 favorites has favorites]

Another definition of a gentleman, which is somewhat relevant here, is "one who never gives offence unintentionally" - which is similar to the ideas above about being polite, keeping cool, and having some mettle when it's needed.
posted by crocomancer at 7:27 AM on June 30 [1 favorite has favorites]

A lot of people are responding with traits that a refined person might have, but I don't think that answers the question, since many of these traits can also be exhibited separate from refinement. Someone can be empty-headed and refined, or extremely intelligent. They can be charitable or not given to charity. Plenty of humble people aren't refined.

I think refinement involves subtle consideration of everything a person is, does, and wears. Very different from being a renaissance individual (who is knowledgeable in a diverse set of arts but otherwise could be impetuous, sloppy, thoughtless, thoughtful etc) a refined person has a considered posture, speaks with some thought beforehand, dresses carefully, enunicates clearly and at an appropriate volume. Refinement smacks of a 'process', and this process is applied to every act that person does. Like 'refined' oil, the word suggests that what you receive from the person isn't the straight-out-of-the-ground material, the immediate impulse, the first thought that sprung to mind, but rather the cracked and sorted product that they think fit for the situation.

Some people appreciate the company of someone who chooses their actions carefully. Others find it a little guarded, and prefer more openly spontaneous company.
posted by Cantdosleepy at 7:37 AM on June 30 [3 favorites has favorites]

How they pick up a fork when eating.
posted by tommasz at 7:38 AM on June 30

wearing Armani doesn't make you refined

It doesn't hurt.

Refined people buy and wear traditional well-made clothes (and shoes and watches, etc..) for the simple reason that they are timeless and well-made. They have style and they don't really care about fashion.

People who buy these same things because of the label or because they want tto "look rich" are not.
posted by Zambrano at 7:50 AM on June 30 [1 favorite has favorites]

behaving as though you have the world's strongest safety net behind you and having the freedom to do as you please, but choosing to draw no attention to it

It's a good point that "refinement" means you're putting the finishing touches on the something - the basics are already covered. So to be refined, you must not be worrying about everyday stuff. A refined person will never snap at you because they're stressed about their car payments, or run frantically into the kitchen with their groceries because they're late to pick up the kid from karate. Probably to be refined, you don't have financial worries (beyond how much your assets are accruing this year) and you don't have time limitations because someone else can handle anything errand-y, so you're free to schedule only actual meetings with people you want to see.
posted by mdn at 8:11 AM on June 30 [1 favorite has favorites]

It's a good point that "refinement" means you're putting the finishing touches on the something

However "refinement" is means removing unwanted elements of something. In the process of doing this we take out the wheat germ, the slag, the crust. The risk is that we remove a little of the soul in our bid to make something more palatable. So it is with people.
posted by rongorongo at 8:28 AM on June 30 [1 favorite has favorites]

Following the advice in this thread.
posted by Jaltcoh at 8:56 AM on June 30

I think of a refined person as one whose rough edges are never apparent to others. This, I think, is what is being refined or polished, the rough edges, the bumps. It is most apparent in how the people in question conduct themselves stressful situations (the headmaster's shipwreck above) and in dealing with people who are in a service role or in no position to confer advantages (wait staff, homeless people, cab drivers, the parent of a wailing baby, etc.).
posted by notashroom at 9:03 AM on June 30

Someone who never talks down to anyone: always on the level, courteous without being obsequious.

Other than that, I think "refined" describes a depth of knowledge. For example, someone with good taste will know that port is served after dinner with fruit and cheese; someone with refined taste will know which port they prefer with which cheese. A truly refined person will know why you always pass the port to the left-- but will never mock someone else for passing it to the right.

A knowledgeable person will know the names of the three Western sport fencing weapons. A refined person will be deadly in at least one of them (but will feel no need to prove it). A truly refined fencer will always take off their mask and gloves to salute and shake hands, and show grace to their opponent whatever the outcome.

I guess what I'm getting at here is: a depth of knowledge that is always available if required, but is never used to humiliate others. An attention to detail, without losing focus on the big picture. A knowledge of how to live, with the wisdom to refrain from trying to dictate how anyone else lives. Maybe your area of refinement isn't port; maybe it's afternoon tea or coffee or microbrewed beer. Maybe, instead of fencing, you dance or climb or do first aid or fire homemade rockets. Find things you like; find out a lot about them; find out which areas or nuances of that thing you prefer; and then use that knowledge to treat yourself and your friends to something good.

One last anecdote: I was language-coaching a college-age singer the other day for his undergraduate final exam recital. It was a nice day, so we sat out on the lawn in front of the halls of residence. Before the lesson, he went and fetched a box of mango juice and a box of totally ordinary supermarket cakes -- which he arranged on plates with paper doilies. And glasses for the mango juice, too. Riches aren't necessary for refinement -- style is.

Here, in case you'd like to read more, is Daniel Defoe's The Compleat English Gentleman, downloadable for free and readable online. Have fun.
posted by Pallas Athena at 9:07 AM on June 30 [3 favorites has favorites]

Especially posture. You can be the coolest, most good-looking dude, just oozing sophistication, wit, and charm, doing everything right, but if you are slouched over you FAIL.

Cary Grant slouches throughout most of North by Northwest, but he owns that slouch.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 9:11 AM on June 30 [1 favorite has favorites]

This isn't such a bad start. To a great degree it is money, but money which has been used towards cultivation, rather than show: good schools, exposure to the world and to places and people that elevate the senses, enough freedom from pointless drudgery to allow pursuit of interests that contribute some sort of positive shaping of skills or character. Having these chances and the polish they tend to confer doesn't automatically make a person refined, though they can help a person appear so. Agreeing with Cantdosleepy, a degree of constant self-consciousness is required, which probably lessens the more behaviors turn into habit- enough that the person is aware at most times of their appearance and effect on others, but not so much that they constantly second-guess themselves to the detriment of confidence. To sum up what other people here are saying, outer refinement is the ability to present something of la bella figura in all situations regardless of how much money you do or don't have at the time, to use good etiquette, and to master sprezzatura. Inner refinement is having made the conscious, constant decision to do these things not primarily because they make your life easier, but because they make life in general more beautiful for others as well as yourself. Refined people tend not to bumble along on auto-pilot, tripping over themselves and other people's feelings by careless accident, but are both mindful and thoughtful regardless of the reasons why.
posted by notquitemaryann at 9:29 AM on June 30

Not needing to fucking curse
posted by MrMulan at 10:08 AM on June 30 [1 favorite has favorites]

He uses different language, but I think Tom Waits nails it here:

Q: What is a gentleman?

A: A man who can play the accordion, but doesn’t.
posted by asuprenant at 11:04 AM on June 30

You might enjoy Paul Fussell's book "Class." He thinks you're born to it; attempts to develop it have negative effects. Of course, he was.
posted by RichardS at 12:15 PM on June 30

Hi,

Thanks for all the replies so far.

One interesting thing is how many people associate being well-dressed with refinement, which I must admit I hadn't considered before, but now understand the reason (a slob, no matter how classy in mannerisms, doesn't give a good first impression).

I understand the negative connotation that the word "refinement" carries, but that was the closest word that I could find with regards to the ideal type of person that I'm looking at. Perhaps a more positive phrase (if not closer in meaning) would be "quality of character".

Thanks for all the answers, and keep them coming :)
posted by titantoppler at 9:28 PM on June 30

Ah, Cary Grant. The image he portrayed says refined to me: easy within his skin, gentle sense of humour, kind to everyone, competent and educated without bringing notice to himself, dressed well in an understated way, quiet self assurance, not flappable, utterly perfect but liked anyway by mere mortals.
posted by x46 at 11:06 PM on June 30 [1 favorite has favorites]