Should I be a celluloid Eve?

June 14, 2009 3:24 PM

Should I do a naked film? (NSFW)

I was asked today to appear naked in an art film. The person who asked me is a bona fide film maker often using abandoned urban settings. I like these settings, and from his description of the project, I don't feel it would degrade or exploit my body. I don't know the film maker terribly well, but he's cool with letting me wait until I'm happy and comfortable with him, and will remove any members of his team from the shoot who I'm not happy with.

I'm very relaxed about being naked in front of others, and have done so before without issue. I'm not looking for, and nor is he offering, payment for this; and neither of us is under any impression that this film would be anything other than an art film for his portfolio and limited showing (that is, no Youtube or mass circulation). My reasons for seriously considering it are that I would like to have this experience and a memory of something interesting and exciting I did during my time at university.

So, my questions are: is there anything I'm not considering or need to set out to him before I agree? what are the risks of doing this in terms of future exposure? and has anybody else done this and found it a brilliant/terrible experience?

posted by Sova to grab bag (50 comments total)

Yo should assume that someday it will end up on Youtube.
posted by bonobothegreat at 3:29 PM on June 14 [22 favorites has favorites]

Indeed, that's an excellent rule of thumb. I say keep that in mind and do it anyway.
posted by aniola at 3:34 PM on June 14

I mean that if it's in his portfolio, the portfolio will probably be distributed on disk or online in some way and it only takes one person, who likes the way you look naked, to put it on a some kind of Youtube/type porno site.
posted by bonobothegreat at 3:35 PM on June 14

At the very least, I would have some sort of legal contract regarding what will happen to the film after it is shot. Consider reserving the right to sue if something else happens to the film. You don't want this to come back and haunt you if the film is stolen, sold, uploaded, etc.
posted by JuiceBoxHero at 3:36 PM on June 14

the wisdom of this rests entirely upon his legitimacy as a filmmaker. no one will ever criticize someone for appearing nude in a david lynch film because david lynch is a genius, and who wouldn't want to work with a genius? on the other hand, someone who strips for a bad student film will be sneered at for failing to discern between art and trash (and whether the distinction between art and trash is real or constructed is irrelevant -- if the art isn't accepted into the circle of legitimacy, it cheapens you).

those are two extremes. if i were you, i would think carefully about where on the spectrum this "bona fide film maker" falls before proceeding.

that said, i am only looking at it in terms of what other people will think of you. if it's just something you want to do, you may enjoy it regardless of the merits of the film.
posted by gonna get a dog at 3:36 PM on June 14

Do you have any desire to hold political office or hold any other position where an opponent can use the existence of this film as leverage to destroy your career?

Other positions that would come time mind for which this type of thing could be an issue are: any sort of position which requires a security clearance such as intelligence work, being a teacher, being a social worker, any job which entails access to highly sensitive information (other than an intelligence position), etc.

This isn't to say that it makes sense that appearing nude in a film should be reason to qualify you from any of the foregoing. It is, however, to say that there are all manner of prudes in the world, some of whom, at some point, may want to harm your career.
posted by dfriedman at 3:36 PM on June 14 [1 favorite has favorites]

Are you relaxed about being naked in front of the internet? Your future employers? Your parents? Your children?
posted by elle.jeezy at 3:37 PM on June 14 [5 favorites has favorites]

Yeah, you should assume that any friends, lovers, enemies and employers you have now or will ever have could see it. In this day and age, even a totally trivial decision on someone else's part could result in that.

If you have a family, social circle or career wherein people would object scornfully or punitively toward you for doing this, maybe skip it.

But you should totally do it. Prudes are closed-minded dorks and shouldn't be kowtowed to.
posted by chudmonkey at 3:38 PM on June 14 [3 favorites has favorites]

You might consider your future career plans and whether they entail being prepared to be in the public eye, e.g., seeking public office or hoping to make it as a serious actress. You might consider appearing in the credits under a pseudonym (if at all) or asking if he can obscure your face using lighting or a mask without compromising the vision of the film. That way you have your memories and plausible deniability.
posted by carmicha at 3:39 PM on June 14 [1 favorite has favorites]

Also, don't like 80% of Americans between the ages of 15 and 40 have naked pictures or video of themselves on the internet? It seems like it, at least. So you'll be in good company.
posted by Casuistry at 3:44 PM on June 14 [1 favorite has favorites]

If somehow he becomes famous (and with his seminal, groundbreaking naked-people-in-abandoned-urban-settings who can tell how far he will go?) the film has the potential to be seen by millions. Forgettable teenage/student/experimental films/photos/writings are fair game when fame strikes.

Don't do it if you're not ready for significant exposure, regardless of how limited the scope of the project might be right now. Vultures find stuff.

Do something pleasantly interesting and exciting at University.
posted by fire&wings at 3:45 PM on June 14

My sister is a visual artist. I've posed nude for her artwork before--it's on the internet and has been in galleries. I don't regret it one bit.

You'll know whether this artist's work is bordering on pornographic, though I don't get a sense of that at all from your post. There's a good deal of nude video art that could never be turned into porn, posted to youtube or not. If, as dfriedman points out, you never intent to run for public office or be a public school teacher, and if you feel like it would both be a positive experience for you and a positive contribution to the art world, go for it!
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:46 PM on June 14

Take one social network, add a little facial recognition, voila: one "name this person" search engine. I give it six months.

If you're happy with people finding this video forever then do it, otherwise don't.
posted by devnull at 3:46 PM on June 14 [2 favorites has favorites]

Wow, thanks for the speedy and good replies. A couple of points from those:

I don't think I would be credited at all, and certainly not if I wanted to withhold my name.

He actually suggested the idea that I appear only from a distance or behind, in a sense secondary to the setting. I could probably remain anonymous if I wanted.

As for his status as a film maker: he's not a student, but this isn't his area of expertise. It's more an exploration of some ideas he would like to try.
posted by Sova at 3:47 PM on June 14

Adding to dfriedman's list - law. See the tale of this young woman. It's unfortunate, and things shouldn't be this way, but it's a reality that someone, somewhere will probably take exception to something like this.
posted by Conrad Cornelius o'Donald o'Dell at 3:52 PM on June 14

Adding to dfriedman's list - law. See the tale of this young woman. It's unfortunate, and things shouldn't be this way, but it's a reality that someone, somewhere will probably take exception to something like this.

Is it just me, or is there a world of difference between appearing in a non-pornographic art video and stripping for playboy tv?
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:54 PM on June 14 [4 favorites has favorites]

Are you relaxed about being naked in front of the internet? Your future employers? Your parents? Your children?

If this is a world where you should have to care about parents, children, or future employers being scandalized by an arty naked movie, I don't want to live in this world anymore.

as chudmonkey said- don't kowtow to prudes. It only makes them stronger.
posted by dunkadunc at 3:58 PM on June 14 [6 favorites has favorites]

Is it just me, or is there a world of difference between appearing in a non-pornographic art video and stripping for playboy tv?

Not if someone has an ax to grind and can convince others' of your poor character. Again, this isn't to say that this behavior is justified.

It is, however, to say, that this kind of thing happens, and it is best not to be naive about it.
posted by dfriedman at 3:59 PM on June 14

What dfriedman said. I personally have no issue with either - I think people should be free to do as they please when it comes to such things. But there are people out there who think that "naked video = very bad thing," regardless of context. I agree with other sentiments expressed in this thread that it's unfortunate to have to think about guiding your life according to the "prudest common denominator." But sometimes, depending upon the life and career choices you hope to make, you do need to be mindful of that.

In other words, "Senator, it was an art film, not a porno" probably won't help much at confirmation hearing. Maybe I'm wrong and these are overblown concerns. But considering how much the traditional media tends to flip out whenever the word "naked" is tosseed out there (especially if there are pics or videos at hand), I'm not sure it's an unreasonable concern.
posted by Conrad Cornelius o'Donald o'Dell at 4:05 PM on June 14

It is, however, to say, that this kind of thing happens, and it is best not to be naive about it.

If anyone knows of an example of this sort of thing happening with nude art modeling, I'd be really interested in seeing it. I agree that it's a bad idea to put yourself in pornographic contexts particularly if you intend on entering government or legal positions, but it sounds like it would be a real stretch to call what the OP is talking about (which might not even feature her face!) pornographic.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:06 PM on June 14 [1 favorite has favorites]

I dunno, I'd almost be more concerned about what a fucking cliche it is to film/photograph naked bodies against the backdrop of urban decay.

But yeah, assume this could end up on the internet where any jackass* can see it/watch it in slowmo/photoshop some shit on a still from it and ask yourself if you're ok with that. Not saying it will happen (seems unlikely, no?), but make sure you're ok with the worst case scenarios.



*Including jackasses who don't like you and want to be an asshole about your naked ass traipsing through the ruins of modern life or whatevs.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 4:12 PM on June 14 [2 favorites has favorites]

I'm thinking more along these lines - the kind of private, silent rejections that employers make when they happen upon things they don't like while looking up applicants on Facebook. (And yeah, I know I made a joke about Senate confirmation hearings, but I think the bigger deal for most people will be this kind of stuff.)
posted by Conrad Cornelius o'Donald o'Dell at 4:18 PM on June 14 [1 favorite has favorites]

My reasons for seriously considering it are that I would like to have this experience and a memory of something interesting and exciting I did during my time at university.

Hmm. What do you mean by "have this experience?" If you mean that in the sense of gaining experience as an actor, I would say definitely don't do it. As you said, it is a non-narrative film and would probably not show your face. Leaving aside whether the concept is trite (another vote here for "yes"), I don't see how this would ever help you get work as an actor. No one is going to say, "oh wow- she was far away naked ass #4 in an abandoned building? let's get her in for an audition right away!"

if it was a narrative film that he wanted you to star in that happened to include nudity, I would recommend it in an instant. But it sounds like this is just an experiment by someone who doesn't even really consider himself a filmmaker. if you just want "something interesting and exciting," why not have a friend video or photograph you nude- then you can hold the copyright. I would recommend it more if I thought the film WOULD be seen by a wide audience- that is a cool story to tell your (open-minded) kids and grandkids. But this kind of sounds like just some dude's experiment that is never going to go much of anywhere.
posted by drjimmy11 at 4:24 PM on June 14

I dunno, I'd almost be more concerned about what a fucking cliche it is to film/photograph naked bodies against the backdrop of urban decay.

Now, that's an interesting point. I don't know how I feel about that.

If you mean that in the sense of gaining experience as an actor, I would say definitely don't do it.

I'm not interested in being an actor or anything like that. Though I suppose I do need to better define what I - and he - intends to get out of it.
posted by Sova at 4:29 PM on June 14

As for his status as a film maker: he's not a student, but this isn't his area of expertise. It's more an exploration of some ideas he would like to try.

I wouldn't do it, for that reason among many. Surely there are other "wild" things you can do in your youth, to look back on later with fondness?

When making your decision, though, remember this: The person you are right now is different than the person you will be when you are, say, 50 years old. When you are 50, will you look back with fondness, or will you cringe? Seriously, ask your mom if she did anything cringe-worthy when she was your age. I bet she did! And yet I bet it wasn't as permanent a decision as being naked on film.
posted by Houstonian at 4:33 PM on June 14

I am reminded of this xkcd strip.
posted by aniola at 4:45 PM on June 14 [4 favorites has favorites]

A good rule of thumb is, (and I think it's from Dan Savage), image everyone you've known or will know seeing it. Everyone, your mom, your grandmother, your boss, your boss's kids, etc. If you still feel okay with it, go ahead.

That being said, many girls (and to a much lesser extent guys) I know who has done anything even remotely sex-related (from porn to art nudes, to just writing about sex or having characters who have sex) say they get trapped in the "Pink Ghetto" of sex-nude related stuff and mainstream outlets have a hard time approaching them. Again, if you're not going to be an actor or work in entertainment (or use your real name in the video) and it's not a huge thing, this may not be an issue.

But at somepoint, someday, it may be. I've had friends of mine get the "but we found naked pictures of you on teh interwebs we can't hire you!' utter bullshit. You have to have enough fortitude to go "Yes, yes I did, what's the problem, exactly?" They're getting their issues all over you, and if you're not comfortable with that, maybe think twice about doing it. People can be real dicks about projecting onto other people, and any kind sex stuff, even if it's *not actually about sex* can set off people's crazypants issues. I'm personally okay dealing with people who have a problem with some of my art, but you may not want the hassle.

That being said, you can use a fake name and take it as a makeup challenge to look different (hey, maybe even make that part of the whole film experiment personal experience thing). I think this question has a better chance of getting connected to you than the actual film would.
posted by The Whelk at 4:48 PM on June 14 [1 favorite has favorites]

Perez Hilton just addressed this topic: We'll say it again, no matter WHO you are, do NOT take naked pictures of yourself or make a sex tape. It WILL get out there, even if you're not famous now and never think you will be. They will get out there and everyone at your work, in your team, in your dorm will find out.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 4:52 PM on June 14 [2 favorites has favorites]

Sheesh, it's just a bum. Maybe some knockers and a patch of whatever. It's not like you're shooting pingpong balls and breaking out the macro lens, then playing said video at Aunty Maude's 60th birthday party.

Don't sweat it. If you go uncredited, no one barring a private investigator will ever find it, and even then only maybe. If you want to do it for fun, have some fun. God, you're only in college once and a little bit of background nudity is unlikely to harm you in the future.
posted by smoke at 5:02 PM on June 14 [3 favorites has favorites]

I can't imagine that the people who would enjoy embarrassing you for being naked in an artsy film would ever come across such an artsy film in the first place. And even if they did, how can they be positive it's you, especially if you're not credited for your participation?

And it's probably not any less risky than being a nude model for an art class, and having one of the students be someone you know, or who knows someone you know.

Even if the artist here became famous, what are the odds that a small-time film he shot with you would gain national attention?
posted by TheSecretDecoderRing at 5:14 PM on June 14

Two things to consider. Times, they are a-changin'. If you wanted to be an actress, having a nude or even porno tape out there, is no longer a career-killer. Same for employers and social circles - and things will probably only relax going forward. Less and less opprobrium. And, second, even if you wanted to be a politician, naked pictures are no longer a career-killer either. I present to you: Arnold Schwarzenegger. Naked pictures? Check! Talk of blow-jobs (sorry, plo-chops)? Check? Ass-pinching? Check! Didn't stop him from becoming governor of the largest state in the union. And quite possibly may become U.S. Senator... the only reason he won't run for prez, is that niggling constitutional business. Married into a prominent family too. So... what's the moral? You live once. IF you love the project, I'd say, do it. If you don't love it, don't do it.
posted by VikingSword at 5:35 PM on June 14 [1 favorite has favorites]

You cannot un-ring the bell.
posted by Kangaroo at 5:42 PM on June 14 [4 favorites has favorites]

If you do it (and everyone has been right that you should assume it's going to become publicly accessible viewing), never deny or apologize for it. People get much more upset about being lied to or manipulated than they do about past life choices that never hurt anyone.
posted by orange swan at 5:43 PM on June 14 [1 favorite has favorites]

Didn't stop him from becoming governor of the largest state in the union
California is not the largest state in the union.

Anyway, I vote for doing it, on the condition that all your concerns and/or questions are clearly and respectfully discussed and answered to your satisfaction. You probably should not have your name on it.
posted by purpletangerine at 6:13 PM on June 14

My friend "Jen" is a part-time nude model for painting classes at a reputable art school. That school recently used a student's oil painting of Jen on the cover of its brochure. I assume they asked / compensated the painter for permission to use the art, but Jen had no idea she'd be (very recognizably) nude on the cover of a brochure that was circulated throughout the city for a whole year.

If your filmmaker friend submits his film to any festivals or shows, a framegrab could be used as a promotional image, so you might want to consider this when negotiating your boundaries if you decide to do this project.

I think you can argue stuff like "it's just art, I was just 20, etc" pretty convincingly, but many times nobody will ever ask you to justify it, they'll just subtly hold it against you and take you out of the running for whatever-it-is you're trying to do (teaching job, for instance).

Also, ppl who are comparing this to Schwartzenegger's nude pics, remember that he's not governor "in spite of having done some nude modelling", he's governor "because of having been The Terminator". Also: way different for a male athlete to pose nude (it's classy and classical to display the well-muscled male form!) than a regular female (it's porno!). You think Sarah Palin or Michelle Obama would be able to brush aside a folder of nude pics from their twenties? No way!

Personally I wouldn't do this, for many reasons. If you wanna be publicly nude, streak around at a cottage party or something, at a moment when nobody's taking photos. It'd probably be more thrilling to do it for a small crowd of screaming acquaintances than for a filmmaker anyway, and then you know for sure it won't end up on the Interweb.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 6:22 PM on June 14 [2 favorites has favorites]

Are you relaxed about being naked in front of the internet? Your future employers? Your parents? Your children?

FWIW, it's perfectly OK if the answers to all of these questions are "yes."

There are nude photos of me shot by a well-known pro photographer from about 15 years ago. If they turned up online I'd be fine with that. There are also photos of my parents nude in a book from 25 years ago, and at the time that certainly was mass-circulation.

While I'll readily grant that still and motion are not the same thing, I think it's also important to say that I have no regrets, my and my parents, who have very respectable high-profile careers, similarly have no regrets. What you are contemplating doing is not a bad thing, could well be an interesting experience, and might make some nice art you'd be proud to be part of.

I think the point is that when we all took our clothes off, we did it in ways we wouldn't be embarrassed for our parents, children, co-workers or anyone else to see, and that makes us all comfortable with what we did, even in retrospect. Everyone's line for "wouldn't be embarrassed" is different, but I certainly would have zero qualms about what you're considering here.

Which, basically, is an anonymous ass shot. If you don't have political aspirations, don't care if it becomes un-anonymous, don't care if your folks see the film, and don't care who else sees your bum either, then do it - and have a great time.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:39 PM on June 14 [3 favorites has favorites]

I'm not sure what the pros are here. The satisfaction of helping an artist realize his goals?

Are you feeling a subtle pressure? Maybe him asking you makes you feel interesting and cool (not that you aren't already, but it makes you feel even more so)? Is he older and more experienced in life than you? Be WARY. People on this thread who are explaining how you can just tell people to get over it if they see you on the internet are not recognizing that this could change your life negatively in very real ways.

Also, even if you are not squicked out about this now, you may be once you a) take your clothes off or b) put them back on and go home. "You cannot unring the bell," as kangaroo says above.

I am imagining that the idea of doing this is appealing to the "do anything once" urge. Fight it. Film is forever, especially in this day and age.

If you find the project itself interesting, tell him you don't want to be naked, but you're happy to help out in other ways.
posted by tk at 6:40 PM on June 14

I'm not sure what the pros are here. The satisfaction of helping an artist realize his goals?

As someone who's done this, this alone can be deeply satisfying. As a woman, I also derived a huge amount of satisfaction out of celebrating my nudity in a way that was not intrinsically sexual--which isn't something that women have an opportunity to do often. It felt good to have ownership and and agency over my nudity--to choose to put my body out there as a way to benefit an artist that I cared about for a project I felt was worthwhile.

I agree that OP has to be wary of lecherous old man artist-types. But there may be reasons why helping this artist in this way, specifically, might be a positive thing for her.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:15 PM on June 14

If he's not going to need your face, why not just put that in the contract -- that your face is not to be shown or must be hidden in some way? Then it becomes a completely zero-stress thing with very few repercussions.

I personally doubt it's a big deal either way, but if you do the above you're golden however the project and/or your life turns out.
posted by glider at 7:25 PM on June 14 [3 favorites has favorites]

FWIW, it's perfectly OK if the answers to all of these questions are "yes."

Agreed. I did art class modeling as well as some somewhat stranger (not porny, just odd) nude modeling in college. I also did other work naked in front of photographers when I lived in Seattle. One of the photos by that photographer wound up on the cover of The Stranger and it took me a while to realize that the butt was the other model's and not mine. The whole thing was fun and I enjoyed it.

Granted, this was in the age before photos and videos of everything wound up online in five minutes, but they're still pictures that are out there, and I don't care much. It's no big deal if it's no big deal to you. Period. I think it's a good idea to think about these things, but just being naked [esp if you're not in naked pseudo-porn] is just not that big a deal unless you're somehow ashamed of it or this would be a big scandal in your chosen profession or within your family.
posted by jessamyn at 7:33 PM on June 14

On the off-chance: Do you know this film-maker? Are you attracted to him? Might he be attracted to you? If so, consider whether this film is merely a complicated way for the two of you to get closer to each other. If it is, then there is nothing wrong with that necessarily, but there are other ways you can get to know each other that avoid all the questions we're talking about here.

Apologies if this is totally off, but I thought it was worth mentioning just in case.
posted by edlundart at 8:43 PM on June 14

I'm sorry, I see you said you don't know him terribly well. My point remains the same.
posted by edlundart at 8:45 PM on June 14

Only do it if you are sure you can stand your ground and are ready to bolt if you don't feel completely comfortable. I mean, ready to walk out at the drop of a hat! You don't want to get slowly corralled into doing something you don't like. Be sure you can bring a trusted friend or two for added confidence and guidance. You don't want to get pressured into doing something stupid and walk out later, thinking "how could I be so DUMB?!"

Some day when you're old, you might be glad to look back as see how cute you looked naked.
posted by bonobothegreat at 8:48 PM on June 14

I would lean towards no. If later down the road, out of university, as an adult, you decide you really want the experience of being nude in an artsy video, I'm sure it's something you can manage to arrange.
posted by Salamandrous at 3:15 AM on June 15

Also: way different for a male athlete to pose nude (it's classy and classical to display the well-muscled male form!) than a regular female (it's porno!)

I would say it's the exact opposite: Female nudes (especially arty ones) are seen to be A-OK, while naked shots naked super-muscly buff dudes are not only pornographic, they're gay, gay, gay.
posted by dunkadunc at 3:38 AM on June 15

Various people have given arguments saying that it's unlikely that this will be matched to her if she isn't credited or her face isn't shown but I'm not so sure. It does not seem impossible to me that a few decades in the future there will be databases and image matching search engines that would allow you to browse through an album of all the images ever posted of a particular person, indexed and linked together through matching of freckles and other biometrics. With enough data and sophistication of analysis I'd expect that non-nude shots displaying just someone's arms and hands and neck could be connected to nude shots not showing the face.
posted by XMLicious at 5:19 AM on June 15

Of course in a few decades you'll probably be able to pull enough data from camera sensors that filtering the clothing off people will become trivial. Hopefully by then no one will really care.
posted by Tenuki at 5:35 AM on June 15

One thing you have to remember is that this is a permanent record of you being naked in front of a camera. There is no going back from this. This is always going to be. Ask yourself this: "Is not getting paid, not staring in a big time role, and not having complete control over the only copy in existence worth it?" Think of it this way, is this something you would want to show your parents? Friends? Children? Employers? Co-Workers? Pervert down the street that looks at you uncomfortably? Anyone?
posted by Mastercheddaar at 6:29 AM on June 15

Thanks everybody for the advice.

I've emailed him just now, and decided that while on basic principle I'm still interested in appearing naked in a film, I want to see him put more groundwork into it before I agree. If I can see the amount of his own time he's investing in the film, that will assure me of both his seriousness and of the film's eventual quality. Also, by confirming the detail of the project, it will allow me to better judge whether it's something I want to gedt involved in and where the film is likely to end up.
posted by Sova at 7:25 AM on June 15

I just wanted to add something that hasn't been mentioned. I did art class modelling at uni, it was really cool, don't regret it (except not getting to keep a canvas: some of the older students were very... flattering). My girlfriend at the time was not cool with it in practice, even though she was in principle. This isn't a reason to go for it or not go for it, it's just something to take into consideration.

The other stuff, make sure it's uncredited or under a pseudonym, on general principles of paranoia. That said, if someone close to you posts it maliciously online with a link to your Facebook profile, you'll be amazed how little people care.

Of course, if it seems like a dodgy video, trust your instincts.
posted by Wrinkled Stumpskin at 1:54 PM on June 16