"Trailing spouse" experiences moving to Japan?
June 5, 2009 6:14 AM Subscribe
"Trailing spouse" experiences moving to Japan?
Me: American. Her: Chinese, lived in the US for the last fifteen years. Both early 30's and aiming to have a kid soon. We're thinking about moving to Japan for my career, but worried about how it'll be for her. She would have to leave behind a good job that she's had for a decade.
In our best moments we can see this as a great adventure we'd be taking on together. In our worst moments we worry that it won't be good for her -- cultural isolation and lack of job prospects are the biggest fears. She took two years of Japanese in college but doesn't quite remember the whole alphabet anymore. Her job now is in server development (C) and we're not sure it'll be easy to migrate into, say, an IT job. (There is one possible IT job waiting for her in Japan, but not as attractive as the one she'd be leaving, either duty-wise or salary-wise.)
We'd love to hear stories about people who faced similar challenges, or inside information about the Japanese job market.
Me: American. Her: Chinese, lived in the US for the last fifteen years. Both early 30's and aiming to have a kid soon. We're thinking about moving to Japan for my career, but worried about how it'll be for her. She would have to leave behind a good job that she's had for a decade.
In our best moments we can see this as a great adventure we'd be taking on together. In our worst moments we worry that it won't be good for her -- cultural isolation and lack of job prospects are the biggest fears. She took two years of Japanese in college but doesn't quite remember the whole alphabet anymore. Her job now is in server development (C) and we're not sure it'll be easy to migrate into, say, an IT job. (There is one possible IT job waiting for her in Japan, but not as attractive as the one she'd be leaving, either duty-wise or salary-wise.)
We'd love to hear stories about people who faced similar challenges, or inside information about the Japanese job market.
I live in Japan, and although I have no inside knowledge about the server development industry here, I'd say it would be pretty hard for your wife to find a decent job. I mean, think about it: she isn't literate in Japanese, she would have trouble communicating with people in a Japanese work environment, and there are plenty of Japanese people with similar skills who don't have those drawbacks. Unless your wife has some serious expertise that she can shop around, I wouldn't be too hopeful about her job prospects.
The only advice I can offer is to try US or western companies in Japan. They might be more likely to hire someone who isn't Japanese-fluent than a Japanese company.
posted by zachawry at 6:30 AM on June 5, 2009
The only advice I can offer is to try US or western companies in Japan. They might be more likely to hire someone who isn't Japanese-fluent than a Japanese company.
posted by zachawry at 6:30 AM on June 5, 2009
I have a trailing spouse moving-to-a-distant city experience, although not with Japan and I'm sure that more specifically-knowledgeable folks will be along with details about that. My advice is very general, but I think it applies so I'll give it: any advance work she can do towards preparing some social context just for her is helpful. If your spouse has work affiliations, hobbies or sports that she can find online groups that do in-person stuff in Japan now before you move, it will go a long way towards alleviating the (IMO) most dangerous aspect of going far away in order to support a spouse's dream, which is social isolation (you will immediately start to build a new social circle via work, but she will generally be an adjunct to that and it can create a very weird feeling of simultaneous dependence/isolation/obligation since she could end up socializing primarily with people you meet, not having a lot in common with them so not getting a lot out of it, and nonetheless always needing to be "on" with them because it feeds into their perceptions of you).
You can always start feeling that stuff out once you're there, but the earlier the better because it's easier to make enjoyable social connections right when you're still in the enthusiastic first flush of having moved than later on once you're kind of down and having a round of doubt and frustration with the (genuine) rigors of relocation.
posted by Your Time Machine Sucks at 6:37 AM on June 5, 2009
You can always start feeling that stuff out once you're there, but the earlier the better because it's easier to make enjoyable social connections right when you're still in the enthusiastic first flush of having moved than later on once you're kind of down and having a round of doubt and frustration with the (genuine) rigors of relocation.
posted by Your Time Machine Sucks at 6:37 AM on June 5, 2009
The IT job market has been one of the bright lights for ex-pats (especially in Tokyo), but this was powered by the booming financial services industry, and providing services for these foreign firms. Since the financial crisis in the fall, a lot of jobs have been lost. As well, foreign companies have either left Japan or cut back considerably.
Anyway, daijob has really excellent resources for foreign IT professionals seeking work in Japan.
It's probably a good idea to assume it will take your wife 6 months to find a job in Tokyo, and that she will probably not earn as much (or enjoy as much responsibility) as she does in the US.
And your wife may not enjoy Japan all that much, especially if, at first, she has no support network like you will with your work.
Having a kid in Japan is totally, totally different than having a kid in the US, so this will also be a source of stress.
Basically, your wife has to be motivated to live in Japan, and she has to be motivated to search for a job. She has to be willing to experience giving birth in a foreign country. She also has to settle for being your wife, and give up her identity for a while.
Nice country, though. I like living there. Living in Tokyo while working in the tech industry would also be neat. But it's not for everyone.
posted by KokuRyu at 6:45 AM on June 5, 2009
Anyway, daijob has really excellent resources for foreign IT professionals seeking work in Japan.
It's probably a good idea to assume it will take your wife 6 months to find a job in Tokyo, and that she will probably not earn as much (or enjoy as much responsibility) as she does in the US.
And your wife may not enjoy Japan all that much, especially if, at first, she has no support network like you will with your work.
Having a kid in Japan is totally, totally different than having a kid in the US, so this will also be a source of stress.
Basically, your wife has to be motivated to live in Japan, and she has to be motivated to search for a job. She has to be willing to experience giving birth in a foreign country. She also has to settle for being your wife, and give up her identity for a while.
Nice country, though. I like living there. Living in Tokyo while working in the tech industry would also be neat. But it's not for everyone.
posted by KokuRyu at 6:45 AM on June 5, 2009
I lived in Japan for ~8 years, some time ago. One thing to consider is ... how to put this delicately ... back in the day, most Japanese were pretty racist. White, college-educated roundeyes such as myself were tolerated pretty well, but many non-whites and (especially) non-Japanese Asians had a tough time of it. I'd be surprised if things had changed much. There are a lot of furriners on Japanese TV now, and some of the "Hey, look, this black man from Africa can speak Japanese remarkably well (for a black man from Africa)!" seems to be fading, but your wife should be prepared for that eventuality. AIUI, even second- and third-generation children of Koreans and Chinese, born and raised in Japan, have some difficulty.
posted by spacewrench at 8:53 AM on June 5, 2009
posted by spacewrench at 8:53 AM on June 5, 2009
I really, really don't like the way delivery and post-natal care are done in Japan, mostly due to how the person giving birth is not given a lot of input into the decisions that have to be made. The system might have changed since I lived there nearly seven years ago, but I heard enough firsthand from friends and colleagues to know that I don't want anything to do with it. That's even taking into consideration that Japan has a really nice nationalized health care system and I speak fluent Japanese. I can't even imagine trying to navigate that process with two years of rusty college Japanese.
posted by Alison at 8:55 AM on June 5, 2009
posted by Alison at 8:55 AM on June 5, 2009
Going along with spacewrench, there is a good amount of racism towards other asians in particular. Students I've taught, people I've known have been quite open about their dislike of people from China, Korea, Taiwan, anywhere Asia that isn't Japan. This extends just as viciously to Asian-Americans/Asian-Canadians. Not that everyone, everywhere is like that, but there is a fair amount of it.
As for a couple, coming to a new country, you need to be conscious of how you two will mentally approach this. If you've got the mindset that she is following you, it ends up as if you're living some great adventure, while she's along for the ride. You both need to be coming here, together, for both of you. It's your, as a couple, your adventure, your opportunity. Both of you need to get involved in your lives, in finding new activities to replace the life and activities you left behind. Speaking from past experience, if one person is living here, and leading a full life, and the other person is "along for the ride" you might end up with a situation where your wife's life is functionally built around you, but in turn, she is (only) a part of your life, which is also filled with work, people you meet from work, people who want to hang out after work, friends you meet through other people.
If you do this, you both need to be into it, you both need to have a life you share together, as well as embrace time that you spend apart as time that each of you will need to find a way to enjoy and accept living abroad.
posted by Ghidorah at 9:05 AM on June 5, 2009
As for a couple, coming to a new country, you need to be conscious of how you two will mentally approach this. If you've got the mindset that she is following you, it ends up as if you're living some great adventure, while she's along for the ride. You both need to be coming here, together, for both of you. It's your, as a couple, your adventure, your opportunity. Both of you need to get involved in your lives, in finding new activities to replace the life and activities you left behind. Speaking from past experience, if one person is living here, and leading a full life, and the other person is "along for the ride" you might end up with a situation where your wife's life is functionally built around you, but in turn, she is (only) a part of your life, which is also filled with work, people you meet from work, people who want to hang out after work, friends you meet through other people.
If you do this, you both need to be into it, you both need to have a life you share together, as well as embrace time that you spend apart as time that each of you will need to find a way to enjoy and accept living abroad.
posted by Ghidorah at 9:05 AM on June 5, 2009
I lived in Japan 1992-2000.
Without near-fluency getting a general IT job will be very difficult. I studied Japanese in college for 2 years and two months after graduation headed over. I got a job teaching English for 2 years until I found a good tech job. My Japanese was borderline OK by then but not good enough for pro, full-immersion in a Japanese-only environment.
But if your wife is bilingual in Mandarin & English then I would think her job prospects aren't that bad since AFAIK there is demand for Mandarin competency in corporate Japan. (I could be entirely wrong about this and business is only done in English, dunno). Plus her Chinese skills are rather applicable for Japanese reading comprehension, which helps in the corporate environment.
Culturally and socially, she could become very isolated in Japan but her 15 years in the US is a plus for that since IMHO the Japanese do respect (near-)native speakers of English as accomplished "internationalists".
posted by @troy at 10:55 AM on June 5, 2009
Without near-fluency getting a general IT job will be very difficult. I studied Japanese in college for 2 years and two months after graduation headed over. I got a job teaching English for 2 years until I found a good tech job. My Japanese was borderline OK by then but not good enough for pro, full-immersion in a Japanese-only environment.
But if your wife is bilingual in Mandarin & English then I would think her job prospects aren't that bad since AFAIK there is demand for Mandarin competency in corporate Japan. (I could be entirely wrong about this and business is only done in English, dunno). Plus her Chinese skills are rather applicable for Japanese reading comprehension, which helps in the corporate environment.
Culturally and socially, she could become very isolated in Japan but her 15 years in the US is a plus for that since IMHO the Japanese do respect (near-)native speakers of English as accomplished "internationalists".
posted by @troy at 10:55 AM on June 5, 2009
nthing the fact that japanese people are very insular and xenophobic, especially toward other ethnic Asians who cannot disguise their origin by speaking flawless japanese.
posted by randomstriker at 11:13 AM on June 5, 2009
posted by randomstriker at 11:13 AM on June 5, 2009
Response by poster: Thanks for all the responses so far -- they are very helpful.
Yes, she speaks both Chinese and English fluently.
We would have about six months between deciding to move and actually moving. The advice about developing some kind of support networks for her during that time is very well taken.
We would be living either in Kashiwa or Tokyo.
Daunting as the information so far is, we'd love to hear more.
posted by em at 11:35 AM on June 5, 2009
Yes, she speaks both Chinese and English fluently.
We would have about six months between deciding to move and actually moving. The advice about developing some kind of support networks for her during that time is very well taken.
We would be living either in Kashiwa or Tokyo.
Daunting as the information so far is, we'd love to hear more.
posted by em at 11:35 AM on June 5, 2009
Kashiwa could be too far out in the sticks unless your wife is a real trooper. 20 miles to Tokyo sounds close but when it's an hour train hassle (15 minutes to the station, 15 minutes waiting for the 急行, 30 minutes to Ueno station) just to get to Ueno (which is on the boring side of town) it's kinda taxing mentally if not physically.
For the first two years of my life in Japan I lived in the Shakujii and Kichijoji areas. The quality of life here was OK (especially Kichijoji) but life was much more fun when I moved inside the Yamanote -- Tokyo inside the Yamanote is smaller than appearances and you can get almost anywhere by bicycle in an hour or less.
Generally speaking the closer to say Shibuya you live the higher the available quality of life -- restaurants, cultural resources, etc. The Foreign Buyers Club is a life-saver for many people but I actually intentionally moved to the gaijin ghetto of Minami Azabu -- the premier grocery market for foreigner is the National Azabu supermarket and I was getting tired of schlepping my goods (apple sauce, cheese, random cooking stuff) from there every month or so I decided to get a place within walking distance of it.
Note that Shibuya is diametrically opposite to Ueno!
To get an idea of real estate costs in Japan the yahoo.co.jp real estate board is useful. Not quite redfin but good enough, and your wife should be able to navigate it like a pro since the UI is very kanji heavy.
Rents in the city are apparently still what I was paying in the late 90s if not a little less. They're probably a lot less out in the sticks.
posted by @troy at 12:08 PM on June 5, 2009
For the first two years of my life in Japan I lived in the Shakujii and Kichijoji areas. The quality of life here was OK (especially Kichijoji) but life was much more fun when I moved inside the Yamanote -- Tokyo inside the Yamanote is smaller than appearances and you can get almost anywhere by bicycle in an hour or less.
Generally speaking the closer to say Shibuya you live the higher the available quality of life -- restaurants, cultural resources, etc. The Foreign Buyers Club is a life-saver for many people but I actually intentionally moved to the gaijin ghetto of Minami Azabu -- the premier grocery market for foreigner is the National Azabu supermarket and I was getting tired of schlepping my goods (apple sauce, cheese, random cooking stuff) from there every month or so I decided to get a place within walking distance of it.
Note that Shibuya is diametrically opposite to Ueno!
To get an idea of real estate costs in Japan the yahoo.co.jp real estate board is useful. Not quite redfin but good enough, and your wife should be able to navigate it like a pro since the UI is very kanji heavy.
Rents in the city are apparently still what I was paying in the late 90s if not a little less. They're probably a lot less out in the sticks.
posted by @troy at 12:08 PM on June 5, 2009
yeah, I'm seeing quality (W/D hookups, corner unit, not ground floor, less than 10 years old) 2LDKs for $700 or so in Kashiwa, while rents *start* at $1300 for places on the Joban line in Tokyo.
If you're going to be working in Kashiwa (?) then you might want to look at Kita Senju. It's the last station on the Hibiya subway line so it's in the DMZ between Kashiwa and Tokyo (the Hibiya line runs through to Ebisu). This makes commuting into the southern swath of Tokyo reasonably efficient.
posted by @troy at 12:22 PM on June 5, 2009
If you're going to be working in Kashiwa (?) then you might want to look at Kita Senju. It's the last station on the Hibiya subway line so it's in the DMZ between Kashiwa and Tokyo (the Hibiya line runs through to Ebisu). This makes commuting into the southern swath of Tokyo reasonably efficient.
posted by @troy at 12:22 PM on June 5, 2009
Japanese people indeed tend to be a little bit racist toward other asians, but the fact that she is from America and not China will help mitigate this.
posted by zachawry at 6:04 PM on June 5, 2009
posted by zachawry at 6:04 PM on June 5, 2009
I dunno what @troy's experience is with Kashiwa, but it's not that bad. Since the Tsukuba Express exists (the last... 5? years) it's about 20 minutes to Akihabara, the trains run every 10 minutes or so. The TX also passes through Kita Senju (mentioned upthread).
It's very, very suburban, but on the plus side, there are some big US-style malls, the University of Tokyo has a campus there, and you can live a life much like the one you have now: big apartment, car, foreign foods, etc. Many people live in Kashiwa (and further) and commute to Tokyo every day, specifically so they can have that lifestyle.
(Also seconding what others have said about racism towards non-Japanese Asians. In particular, Westerners are amazing if they know ONE WORD in Japanese, but Chinese, Vietnamese, etc., are expected to be naturally and fully fluent in Japanese. what. And I would never, EVER want to have a child here. I don't know about the birth stuff, but yeah, getting involved with any doctors here is a mistake, since they you're never given information or options on anything, and as far as schools, what an unpleasant, stifling, school environment...)
posted by whatzit at 6:15 PM on June 5, 2009
It's very, very suburban, but on the plus side, there are some big US-style malls, the University of Tokyo has a campus there, and you can live a life much like the one you have now: big apartment, car, foreign foods, etc. Many people live in Kashiwa (and further) and commute to Tokyo every day, specifically so they can have that lifestyle.
(Also seconding what others have said about racism towards non-Japanese Asians. In particular, Westerners are amazing if they know ONE WORD in Japanese, but Chinese, Vietnamese, etc., are expected to be naturally and fully fluent in Japanese. what. And I would never, EVER want to have a child here. I don't know about the birth stuff, but yeah, getting involved with any doctors here is a mistake, since they you're never given information or options on anything, and as far as schools, what an unpleasant, stifling, school environment...)
posted by whatzit at 6:15 PM on June 5, 2009
Viz-a-viz what whatzit says...I have had two children in Japan and it's been just fine. There are good doctors (one of whom is my wife!) and bad doctors, just like anywhere else. And, same with schools, although if my children will definitely be attending an international school.
posted by zachawry at 10:44 PM on June 5, 2009
posted by zachawry at 10:44 PM on June 5, 2009
Response by poster: We were thinking of international school, too.
As for doctors, how tough is it to find a good English- or Mandarin-speaking one?
posted by em at 11:51 PM on June 5, 2009
As for doctors, how tough is it to find a good English- or Mandarin-speaking one?
posted by em at 11:51 PM on June 5, 2009
In Tokyo it should be no problem. In Kyoto....send me an email!
posted by zachawry at 12:14 AM on June 6, 2009
posted by zachawry at 12:14 AM on June 6, 2009
Another opinion on having kids:
There is a big spread of doctor quality and style in Japan. The old-skool approach was "the doctor knows everything, you don't", in which doctors didn't give explanations, didn't give choices, etc. This is the type of doctor who wouldn't tell patients that they had a terminal illness, since there would be nothing the patient could do.
The new-skool approach is essentially being a Western-style doctor. Explanations, options, alternatives, etc.
So if y'all are going to have kids here, the issue is just finding the right doctor. My wife (Japanese) has had two kids here in Japan, at two different hospitals, and was very satisfied with both experiences.
There are two big differences that come to mind between Japanese childbirth and American childbirth: They generally don't use anesthetic (except for C-sections), but they never kick you out the next day, either. The hospital stay is generally 5 to 7 days for a regular childbirth.
posted by Bugbread at 2:31 AM on June 7, 2009
There is a big spread of doctor quality and style in Japan. The old-skool approach was "the doctor knows everything, you don't", in which doctors didn't give explanations, didn't give choices, etc. This is the type of doctor who wouldn't tell patients that they had a terminal illness, since there would be nothing the patient could do.
The new-skool approach is essentially being a Western-style doctor. Explanations, options, alternatives, etc.
So if y'all are going to have kids here, the issue is just finding the right doctor. My wife (Japanese) has had two kids here in Japan, at two different hospitals, and was very satisfied with both experiences.
There are two big differences that come to mind between Japanese childbirth and American childbirth: They generally don't use anesthetic (except for C-sections), but they never kick you out the next day, either. The hospital stay is generally 5 to 7 days for a regular childbirth.
posted by Bugbread at 2:31 AM on June 7, 2009
Chinese and Koreans have great advantages when learning Japanese. First one already knows a lot of kanjis and second one has similar grammar (or so I am told). If your wife can read and write chinese (whether traditional or simplified) decently she will have a much much easier time learning Japanese than other people. Picking up the alphabets (again) won't take too long.
Also about the racism...it's interesting how Japan is the only country that has invaded the other three mentioned earlier (China, Taiwan, Korea). I have a few Japanese friends and they are all very nice polite people. Good luck to whatever decision you make!
posted by jstarlee at 1:25 PM on June 7, 2009
Also about the racism...it's interesting how Japan is the only country that has invaded the other three mentioned earlier (China, Taiwan, Korea). I have a few Japanese friends and they are all very nice polite people. Good luck to whatever decision you make!
posted by jstarlee at 1:25 PM on June 7, 2009
I really, really don't like the way delivery and post-natal care are done in Japan.
I think this is the first time I have ever disagreed with any of Alison's comments about Japan. There are abundant maternity hospitals with different philosophies to choose from, the one we chose gave attentive care throughout the pregnancy and delivery, and the facilities were immaculate and comfortable. Costs are certainly reasonable compared with America, and most of the fees for delivery were offset by a USD$3,000 subsidy for childbirth paid by Kyoto city. Kyoto had top-notch medical universities and hospitals, but I doubt that other major cities have worse maternity care.
posted by planetkyoto at 6:26 AM on June 24, 2009
I think this is the first time I have ever disagreed with any of Alison's comments about Japan. There are abundant maternity hospitals with different philosophies to choose from, the one we chose gave attentive care throughout the pregnancy and delivery, and the facilities were immaculate and comfortable. Costs are certainly reasonable compared with America, and most of the fees for delivery were offset by a USD$3,000 subsidy for childbirth paid by Kyoto city. Kyoto had top-notch medical universities and hospitals, but I doubt that other major cities have worse maternity care.
posted by planetkyoto at 6:26 AM on June 24, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by misozaki at 6:24 AM on June 5, 2009