Student/former professor romance

May 30, 2009 4:33 PM

Student/former professor romance. Personal experiences and anecdotes are welcome.

I am a 23-year-old female. He is 30 years older than I am. He has no significant other -- no wife, no girlfriend -- and he has no kids.

And, of course, he was my professor for most of my undergraduate degree. I've worked for him for several years, and have taken a few courses with him as well. Although I graduated last year, I still work for him as a research assistant in his lab. I will be leaving this position by July, since I will be starting my Master's degree at a university on the other side of the country in September, although in the same field. I will probably never return to my undergraduate university -- at least, not until after I get my Ph.D. -- and he will never be my professor again.

For the duration that I have been his student, our relationship was strictly professional and platonic. While we were definitely much closer than the average student and professor, it was strictly on friend-like terms and there was nothing beyond that.

More recently -- especially in the last few weeks -- things have taken a slightly different turn. Earlier this month, we began to go out for drinks and food after work. These things were never planned, and we always stayed on neutral topics.

We went out again last night, and it was revealed that we have romantic feelings for each other. We have not yet done anything -- short hugs and holding hands at most. It seems crazy to me that I am in this situation, and I feel like I've been thrown into a whirlwind.

The biggest problem is that we are in the same field. Many of his friends and colleagues are at the new institution that I will going to, and I will likely be continuing my studies in this field. Even if we don't end up dating, I don't feel that I can ever, in good conscience, ask for a letter of reference now that I know how he feels about me. This is extremely bad for me, as he was my primary reference for applying to my grad program.

I know the tone that people use when they say, "He's dating his student." I know we'll be raising eyebrows wherever we go. I fear that, if we were to date, people will never be able to take me and my work seriously. My reputation will always be dogged by a knowing look. His reputation will suffer, too, of course, but he is already a well-established and respected scholar in his field. I almost wish I could change my field of study somehow.

Even if we manage to get over the huge age difference, the potentially irrecoverable damage to our respective professional reputations, we would still be pursuing a long-distance relationship for many years to come. I've never been in one before, and I really don't understand the kinds of things that are involved. There are just so many ways things can go wrong.

Right now, we've agreed not to do anything until August, when I will no longer be his employee. This should give both of us some time to think about things while letting the feelings cool down a little. It feels so foolish to risk something so permanent like career and reputation for something so fleeting like romance. My common sense tells me to run, but my heart simply won't let me. This, I guess, means that I'm not quite as emotionally mature as I'd like to be.

What should I do, Metafilter? There are so many thoughts going through my head right now. I've read related ask.mefi posts in the archives, but was hoping to get some direct advice related to my situation.

Sigh. How do I get myself into these things...?

posted by anonymous to human relations (29 comments total)

I might hold off on public displays until you're a little more professionally distinct, but love's love. Go for it.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 4:38 PM on May 30

Even if we manage to get over the huge age difference, the potentially irrecoverable damage to our respective professional reputations, we would still be pursuing a long-distance relationship for many years to come. I've never been in one before, and I really don't understand the kinds of things that are involved. There are just so many ways things can go wrong......What should I do, Metafilter?

First off, I would guess there's a decent chance he's dated a student before. So, you could see that as a good sign that it's possible to do it and not harm your career forever, seeing he is where he is.

Putting that aside, I don't think you should do it. With all the factors put together, it just doesn't seem like the sort of thing that will end well.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 4:43 PM on May 30 [3 favorites]

I have no personal experience with a student/professor or employer/employee relationship, nor a long-distance relationship. But from my understanding of the situation, and of long-distance relationships, this sounds like heartbreak for both of you. I'm glad you were both able to distance yourselves until your professional relationship is less intertwined, but even then, it sounds like it could cause more harm than good. If nothing else, starting a relationship as a long-distance relationship is really tough, as there isn't the developed bond between the two of you as a starting point.

Of course, you could be great for each-other, and you could grow out of the shadow of dating your (ex) prof. If you both really want it to work, you can make it work. But that will mean more effort on your behalf to avoid the notion of using your relationship to your professional advantage, and work on keeping a long-distance relationship healthy.
posted by filthy light thief at 4:45 PM on May 30

FWIW, I do not think that your current situation ("even if we don't end up dating") is an ethical impediment to his writing you an accurate, fair letter of reference in the future given that, romantic feelings aside, he still remains the person best suited to doing so. Ethics aside, there would be more practical reasons not to use him as a reference should your relationship progress and become widely known in your field.
posted by onshi at 4:51 PM on May 30 [1 favorite]

Normally I would say go ahead, but proceed with caution. But this concerns me a little:

I will be leaving this position by July, since I will be starting my Master's degree at a university on the other side of the country in September

and

Right now, we've agreed not to do anything until August, when I will no longer be his employee.

Does this mean you'll date for one month and then begin a long-distance relationship? While you are already unsure of how this will affect you both professionally and personally? While starting a Master's degree? Please listen to your "common sense" and keep your professor as a dear and trusted colleague instead of a lover.

(on preview- what filthy light thief said)
posted by Mouse Army at 4:51 PM on May 30 [1 favorite]

He is so much older than you and you have been in a position "beneath him" (no pun intended) for a long time. It is likely when the passion subsides that he will continue to feel like a superior and /or a teacher to you. That's common in May/December relationships. You'll always have that little-kid Daddy thing going unless you feel very equal to him...and unless you can go toe to toe with him and hold your own intellectually. May/December relationships do work---there are lots of them in the history pages. Tongues will wag...but so what.
posted by naplesyellow at 4:52 PM on May 30 [1 favorite]

I can't comment much on the student/professor issue, except to say that (i) it probably isn't as uncommon as you think, though it is usually grad student/professor, and (ii) in the vast majority of cases I have known of, if the romance does continue, the younger (always female) member of the pair typically ends up leaving the field, and the older member's career isn't really impacted at all. But, this doesn't necessarily mean unhappiness.

I will probably never return to my undergraduate university -- at least, not until after I get my Ph.D.

The odds are, given the way the academic job market works, you would _never_ end up returning to that university. In fact, you wouldn't be very likely to have much of a choice of where you go, and probably it wouldn't even be near that university.
posted by advil at 5:02 PM on May 30 [1 favorite]

Two things:

1) My observations of such romances have led me to conclude that the only person who may (not necessarily will, but may) experience some nasty professional backlash...is you. Nothing is going to happen to the professor. (As ThePinkSuperhero says, this man--50s, no wife, no kids--has probably dated students before.)

2) Are you sure that your academic relationship with this man isn't inadvertently carrying over into your feelings about him? The power imbalance between students and faculty sometimes leads the former to really idealize the latter. Hugo Schwyzer's blog isn't to everyone's taste, but he's got some thoughtful things to say about faculty-student relationships.
posted by thomas j wise at 5:04 PM on May 30 [6 favorites]

Speaking as someone who has been around these sorts of relationships (but not a participant), unfair as it may be, everyone will question how much of your success is due to shtupping your PI and not your actual abilities. For that fact alone, my advice is always that engaging in such relationships is a bad idea for the subordinate person. Other fish in the sea don't carry such career trajectory baggage.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 5:06 PM on May 30 [3 favorites]

I'd be very careful. This man has been an authority figure in your life for the entirety of your adulthood. It's nearly impossible for you to tell at this point if your feelings for him are tied to him having been a trusted authority figure or not, but chances are, they are.

One good reason why teacher/student relationships are taboo is because students very often develop crushes on teachers they trust and admire, and it's very easy for teachers to forget the difference between themselves in their role as mentors and role models and themselves as private human beings. I'm sure it's very flattering when you're a man in your 50s with a 19-year-old girl looking up at you adoringly. Likewise, I'm sure it's an incredible ego-boost when someone who you trust and admire who is well-respected in the career you are passionate to pursue takes an interest in you; it must be quite a boon to land a distinguished professor's attentions. Must make you feel all kinds of smart. The veneer of trusted authority is highly attractive and any teacher should be suspicious about crushes and romantic feelings from students. It is very likely not really about them as people at all; pursuing these relationships is a very real breech of trust, in my opinion.

The May/December issue is one thing; I think the age gap is very likely insurmountable in the long run, but I know a few couples with a monstrous age gap between them who are extremely happy together. To me it's the origins of the relationship that make it so highly problematic.

That said, lots of professors hook up with and even marry their former students. The stories like this that I've heard have usually involved graduate students hooking up with their supervisors. All the people I know (and I know a few) who were involved with instructors they had has undergrads (all of them graduating at or before age 23) ended up in bitter break-ups.

YMMV.
posted by Hildegarde at 5:18 PM on May 30 [1 favorite]

True story. I married a student, a major in my dept but not my student in class. We got married the same day as she graduated. Her mom and dad not overly happy since I am older than either--my wife is 29 years my junior. Even as I type this, my son--from this marriage--is home from college and his girlfriend is visiting us. This summer we go--my daughter, 16, my son, 21, and wife to Italy to celebrate my 80th birthday. Two weeks ago we spent (just the two of us) a weekend in NY to celebrate our 26th anniversary. It can work for others, I assume, because it has certainly worked for us.
posted by Postroad at 5:18 PM on May 30 [9 favorites]

Wow, welcome to my life.

SO is not a professor, but the moderator (teacher) of a workshop that I'm in, so we definitely have the student/teacher thing going on. (It's an ongoing workshop, so an ongoing issue!) I'm just over 30 years younger.

We're very happy (been dating over a year), but it's been hard. I'm happy to talk over email about anything. (email in profile)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:22 PM on May 30

Also, one other thought: I see in your question that you had revealed that you have romantic feelings for each other, but not that he had expressed any interest in starting a long-term relationship (maybe he did and you didn't mention it, I don't know). Make sure you're on the same page about those issues before you get involved. It's possible you're thinking "long-term, long-distance relationship" and he's thinking "fling". A single 53-year old man has had plenty of opportunities to be in a long-term relationship (at least in theory).
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:25 PM on May 30 [1 favorite]

This may sound a bit condescending, and if so I apologize, but... you're 23. What you want out of life is going to change. It seems to me that you need to weigh very heavily the potential career issues that would come along with dating this man given the likelihood that in a short period of time, particularly living in a new place, you won't feel the same way that you do now.

The chances of any relationship with your former professor, never mind a long distance one, surviving for long are probably a lot worse than you'd like to think. As others have said, you don't know whether he has dated any (former) students before. Moreover, you probably will find that the idea of dating him (someone you admire, and who thus far has had more power in the relationship and will likely continue to want to be in that position of power) is a lot different than the reality. If he's tenured, and you wait until there's no employer-employee relationship to take your relationship outside of professional bounds, there's really no danger for him at all.

Frankly, if he's a good person, he should really be trying his damnedest to avoid getting involved with you. He should know better, and he should be looking out for you too. If he seems too willing (or perhaps, rather, insufficently resistant) that's a red flag. Flee.
posted by axiom at 5:27 PM on May 30 [3 favorites]

I was there at 23. Usually I would say follow your heart, but the best thing I ever did was walk away from him and move on with my life and I think you should too.
posted by bristolcat at 5:27 PM on May 30 [2 favorites]

I currently teach at the college level, and I have been on both sides of the coin.

In retrospect, I regret that my mentor made the choice to cross the line with me as the person looking up to him.

As an instructor, I have had a number of male students develop crushes on me, and I would never dream of crossing the line with them. My own choice, but I think the person in the mentor position has a responsibility to teach others and not blur those boundries.

I do think the mentor relationship was beneficial to me, but it would have been even more beneficial if it had remained only academic.

In retrospect, I also second what those above have said about your young age, and all that lies before you. I would choose differently, if presented with the choice again.
posted by effluvia at 6:30 PM on May 30

Glad to hear it turned out so happily for Postroad, but he doesn't mention what happened to his wife's career, or whether she has a career outside the home.

This could turn out to be "the" relationship of your life, or it could hinder your professional development, or it could "merely" lead to lots of whispers behind your back. As other posters have noted, it will have little to no real consequences to his career or reputation. I have not been in such a relationship, but I've seen them going on around me. Either no one cares at all, or the woman is primarily the one who the 'whisphers' target. It all makes little sense to me why certain relationships are picked out as so scandalous, although I guess it seems to depend on the professor in some arbitrary way, and it seems completely unfair that the woman is always seen as the 'unwise' one, but it's what I've witnessed over and over.

As for the very much older man vs. younger woman dynamic, I am closely related to such a couple and they're very happy. I guess he's very young for his age and she very 'mature' - I'm not sure, but it's easy to forget there's such an age difference; they're very well suited to each other. There wasn't, however, the professional complications that you mention when they started dating....that part sets off waaaaay more alarms for me than the difference in your ages. Good luck and put yourself first -- this is the time of your life to be doing so.
posted by Tandem Affinity at 7:31 PM on May 30

I haven't been in a situation like this personally, but I can almost guarantee that people in your field will be discussing any sexual relationship you have with your former professor. They will also form conclusions about your professional potential based on this relationship. Last year, I saw rumors of a consensual sexual relationship between a professor and her doctoral student create such a toxic environment that the professor left the university and the grad student left campus. While there are surely success stories out there, you're risking a lot more than personal heartache if you are planning to become a professor yourself one day.
posted by eisenkr at 11:42 PM on May 30

My last serious boyfriend was my university lecturer. It was hot gossip for longer than the time we went out. However, it wasn't a big deal for me, him, or his colleagues (I should point out at this juncture that I was a lot older than my fellow students, and the age difference between me and him was 13 years, not more).

My opinion is that if you think any relationship might be worth it you should go for it. My relationship unfortunately broke up whilst we were long distance, but that wasn't cited as the reason by him (and in hindsight, it was not the dream relationship I thought). However, I do think the long distance thing is a bigger issue than the fact he was once your professor.
posted by nunoidia at 1:23 AM on May 31

I think many people could justify risking a career for a fulfilling relationship that lasted a lifetime. But it doesn't sound like this attraction has much of a chance of becoming that kind of lifelong love -- besides all the logistical factors (long-distance, the age differential, the possible resentment if this ends up affecting your future), he's a man in his fifties who (from the sounds of it) has never been married. That doesn't make it likely that he's particularly interested in long-term relationships.
posted by TheLittlestRobot at 1:49 AM on May 31

I've never done this myself, but I've seen a lot of the grad student/prof version of it from the outside -- sometimes with ringside seats. One major factor in how it all turns out is, of course, is how serious it is between you, and i can't really tell. (Do NOT simply have a fling with him. No no no.) But another major factor is, frankly, whether people in your field like & respect you and him independently of this affair. Let's focus on you. IF people in your field already take you seriously, and you're publishing and doing well, then eyebrows will be cocked, but perhaps no more. IF people like you and think you are mature and so forth, it won't be as bad as it could be.

Here's the problem: no one in your field thinks ANYTHING about you. You have no external signals of success. You are not yet publishing in peer-reviewed journals (something daddy prof can't really help with), you do not have other supporters, people haven't heard you give talks at conferences, etc.

So. Who knows what the future will bring? It's certainly possible, as others have pointed out, that everything will be peachy and you'll celebrate your 25th anniversary together while you bask in your endowed chair at the top university in your field. But, um, probably not. Probably, you will find yourself clawing for respect. And note that there will be no 50th anniversary.

Also, it worries me that you think this:

I don't feel that I can ever, in good conscience, ask for a letter of reference now that I know how he feels about me. This is extremely bad for me, as he was my primary reference for applying to my grad program.

It sounds like you think that you've ALREADY done it, so there's nothing to lose. Not true. As things stand, he can still write for you.
posted by kestrel251 at 3:38 AM on May 31 [2 favorites]

Maybe you would get more responses if you posted a throw-away email.
posted by bolognius maximus at 6:17 AM on May 31

An acquaintance of mine made this work with a 20-year age difference (she's now late 20s, he's early 40s). After four years of dating, including two years of a long-distance relationship, they're now engaged, and plan to be married this summer. However, she was never planning on an academic career, so she didn't need to worry as much about the very real academic reputation issues you've cited. And yes, they will hurt you, and not him.

Given what you're telling us about your goals and the current context, I would say "danger, Will Robinson!" and walk away. If the sparks are still there when you finish your own terminal degree, then maybe.. but right now you're playing with fire. Chances are you'll meet people you can have a better relationship with in your new program, anyway. :)
posted by Alterscape at 7:09 AM on May 31

a 20-year age difference (she's now late 20s, he's early 40s).

How is this a 20-year age difference?
posted by Hildegarde at 7:30 AM on May 31

Many single (or single-ish) academic 50-year-old men are serial daters of students. Colleagues watch in horror in case it ends badly yet again for the student who thought she was "the" one. Would you know about this aspect, even though you have seen his professional life for a while? The first thing is to ask around. Certainly don't build any plans until you are clear what his intentions are, and how reliable he is.

Each of the factors of the age gap, the long-distance relationship and your going out into the wider world from your undergraduate uni work independently to make it more likely that the relationship will break up. Don't sacrifice too much for this outside chance of lasting happiness. Do check out naplesyellow's point about an asymmetric relationship. Linking up with someone "established" may sound a much better idea than attacking the big wide world alone. But it can be a terrible trap, especially if he is (like many older men) looking for someone who will follow his lead in everything. You may end up at 26 not where you are now, but having actually moved backwards in ability to look after yourself.
posted by Idcoytco at 10:33 AM on May 31 [1 favorite]

His role as your professor and now supervisor is of less concern to me than the age and power difference. If you are madly in love with him, and believe this is a relationship that will lead you to your own goals, perhaps marriage and children, then go for it. But if his goals are different, and they may be, you are still at a stage where you can move on without huge heartbreak.

Passionate love is wonderful, but long-term happiness is more about shared values and shared goals.
posted by theora55 at 10:53 AM on May 31

I have known only one such relationship. The girl at the time was 23/24 and the teacher was in his late thirties. After the inital excitement wore off the relationship always seemed rocky. The guy was well settled career-wise and had enough money to spend on all the things he wanted to pursue (he was saving up for buying a plane). She wanted to get married and have kids. After less than a year she realised that he may not want to get married to her/get married at all. Once it gradually dawned on her, she was quite unhappy during that time. Eventually things fizzled out with her not making any attempts to get in touch with him and I don't really know about his side of the story. I am not sure if they had discussed what they wanted out of the relationship clearly but obviously they weren't on the same page. She met another guy shortly after that, fell in love and got married. This guy was a faculty member but wasn't teaching/mentoring her directly.

This relationship did not have the kind of power imbalance that is present in your situation. I am not sure if Postroad's wife was an undergraduate at the time or a graduate student. It would make a big difference. What you want now may very likely change in the next 7-10 years. Since this chap is your mentor, it makes things all the more complicated. Personally, I would never risk my career nor my reputation for a fleeting hope of happiness with a man I barely know as a person. I would have been more willing to take such risks (but never the one in your situation!) 5/7 years back but now I am all the more aware of how my work sustains me and makes me self-reliant. It is the only thing I can rely on. I would also be very skeptical of a man who is interested in pursuing things with an undergraduate student rather than looking out for you as axiom said. When you look at someone on a pedestal, you may not get the best view. It is only when you stand shoulder to shoulder that you'll get the true picture. I am really not trying to be negative here but this is what I would say to a younger sibling in your situation. Good luck.
posted by xm at 11:20 AM on May 31

You are going to meet all sorts of new people/prospects at your new school. Going there while in the throes of a 1 month-old long-distance relationship seems like a bad plan to me.
posted by Four Flavors at 3:22 PM on June 1

Is it just me, or is there still a huge gender-discrimination in this uh, area of non-condoned behaviour?
eisenkr mentioned the only professor to be negatively affected by this, and it sounds like it was a female professor.

In all the cases I know of, it's only ever the (female) student who got screwed.
(The Professor might have shown very poor judgement, but no penalties received :P )
Sucks, but, hey.

If he does care about you, then he'll write the reference objectively, and hold off on developing the relationship any further, knowing it's not in your best interests.

If, in future, you meet, flirt/whatever - hey, the option is still open.

If he *doesn't* put your best interests at heart, then, whatever good qualities he might have, that makes him too selfish for you to do anything.
posted by Elysum at 2:10 AM on June 4