This Old House: Ready to pull the trigger, but can somebody help me from shooting myself in the foot?
April 23, 2009 10:19 AM Subscribe
Working on a 1911 bungalow, and trying to figure out which fixes come in order to create the fewest problems. Original cedar siding is about shot, and I know that replacement will include fixing a bunch of other spots that have suffered neglect on the exterior. That said, I also have a few windows to replace. Question: windows first, or siding? Or does it not matter at all? And can you add gutters to a bungalow without it looking stupid? Finally, Hardie board? Help! Anyone I ask wants to sell me something.
Disclaimer: this advice comes from my friend's 1960s ranch house, but my parents have a 1917 Craftsman through which I live vicariously :P
Depending on how many windows/what kind of changes you want to do, if you can manage the siding at the same time as the windows, that's probably the best option. If you remove the siding, you can get access to new windows at builder's prices/without having to do extra work keeping or replacing things like sashes, etc. So you remove the old siding, make any sort of changes you might want (resizing windows, moving stuff, better shims, better alignment, etc.), put the new ones in, and then put the new siding on. Given the age of your home, this is probably the best plan because you KNOW the windows and the framing will be wonky, nonstandard size, or both. This way, you can save yourself money in both materials and labor while maintaining the integrity of your house.
Also, beware of those renewal windows that use the existing sash, etc. I don't know how good the quality is (I assume they're decent), but they'll cost the same, if not more than, regular windows.
You may also want to take a look at the foundation and make sure it's all square or at least very stable before you do any work on the upstairs. You don't want to have to constantly recut things at an angle simply because the beams are sagging (and will continue to get worse), right?
posted by Madamina at 10:32 AM on April 23, 2009
Depending on how many windows/what kind of changes you want to do, if you can manage the siding at the same time as the windows, that's probably the best option. If you remove the siding, you can get access to new windows at builder's prices/without having to do extra work keeping or replacing things like sashes, etc. So you remove the old siding, make any sort of changes you might want (resizing windows, moving stuff, better shims, better alignment, etc.), put the new ones in, and then put the new siding on. Given the age of your home, this is probably the best plan because you KNOW the windows and the framing will be wonky, nonstandard size, or both. This way, you can save yourself money in both materials and labor while maintaining the integrity of your house.
Also, beware of those renewal windows that use the existing sash, etc. I don't know how good the quality is (I assume they're decent), but they'll cost the same, if not more than, regular windows.
You may also want to take a look at the foundation and make sure it's all square or at least very stable before you do any work on the upstairs. You don't want to have to constantly recut things at an angle simply because the beams are sagging (and will continue to get worse), right?
posted by Madamina at 10:32 AM on April 23, 2009
Your order of operations depends on what you're actually going to do with the windows. Chances are that you are either going to have to have custom windows made (because they didn't use stock sizes back then, and when you measure you're going to find that the windows are all different sizes by stupid half and quarter inches) or you're going to have to rebuild the window frames you currently have and reglaze the panes, or replace the hung parts with double-paned and more energy efficient glass. Lots of choices, and what order you do things is going to depend on what you're choosing. Look into retaining the original window frames and stabilizing them with injected composites or rebuilding them. There are lots of howtos all over the web.
If you replace the windows entirely, new windows come with a 'lip' that you set into the front wall of the house after jacketing the house in tyvek. Check your local building code here and see what you're required to do, and what permit and inspections you need.
What's the hight of the lap on your current siding, and what kind of deed restrictions are you under for historical or neighborhood purposes? any? The problem with the hardiplank lapboard is that it doesn't really come in a lot of widths. Other than that, it's easy to install, except around windows. The best part about hardiplank is that it'll probably drop your insurance... it's considered to be the equivalent of a brick exterior for fire purposes, where cedar planking is, ah, definitely not. But it is a composite, and you need to have special saw blades, special nails, and other special things to install it properly. If you don't install it properly, the warranty is void and it will literally explode off the side of the house when water impregnates it. The instructions for installing it are available from the James Hardi website.
Around windows, there's some argument as to how hardiplank should be installed. My house, here in the south, has the windows flush with the outer wall of the house. I'm not sure if this is because of code or the window design. Then they apply the hardiplank up to the edge of the window, and then they tack the trim product over top of the place where the window meets the lapboard. I don't like this installation method; the way I prefer to see it done is to put the window in, apply the trim, and then build the lapboard up to the edge of the trim and caulk it in place.
People are probably coming off as "trying to tell you something" because you sound like you don't even know what your end goal is yet, and you don't have specific enough questions for them to provide impartial responses. What do you want to end up with? What kind of timeline and how much do you want to do yourself?
posted by SpecialK at 10:34 AM on April 23, 2009
If you replace the windows entirely, new windows come with a 'lip' that you set into the front wall of the house after jacketing the house in tyvek. Check your local building code here and see what you're required to do, and what permit and inspections you need.
What's the hight of the lap on your current siding, and what kind of deed restrictions are you under for historical or neighborhood purposes? any? The problem with the hardiplank lapboard is that it doesn't really come in a lot of widths. Other than that, it's easy to install, except around windows. The best part about hardiplank is that it'll probably drop your insurance... it's considered to be the equivalent of a brick exterior for fire purposes, where cedar planking is, ah, definitely not. But it is a composite, and you need to have special saw blades, special nails, and other special things to install it properly. If you don't install it properly, the warranty is void and it will literally explode off the side of the house when water impregnates it. The instructions for installing it are available from the James Hardi website.
Around windows, there's some argument as to how hardiplank should be installed. My house, here in the south, has the windows flush with the outer wall of the house. I'm not sure if this is because of code or the window design. Then they apply the hardiplank up to the edge of the window, and then they tack the trim product over top of the place where the window meets the lapboard. I don't like this installation method; the way I prefer to see it done is to put the window in, apply the trim, and then build the lapboard up to the edge of the trim and caulk it in place.
People are probably coming off as "trying to tell you something" because you sound like you don't even know what your end goal is yet, and you don't have specific enough questions for them to provide impartial responses. What do you want to end up with? What kind of timeline and how much do you want to do yourself?
posted by SpecialK at 10:34 AM on April 23, 2009
Windows, then siding. It's much easier to properly flash new windows if the siding is off.
posted by electroboy at 11:14 AM on April 23, 2009
posted by electroboy at 11:14 AM on April 23, 2009
How much of this will be DIY?
I'm rebuilding my own windows (so they'll go in the current holes in the frame as per davy_darling's answer) so I did siding first.
You can cut hardie board with a regular carbide blade, but they die fast. I take about three cuts and then sharpen the carbides with a diamond wheel (a cheapy from harbor frieght) and a dremel tool. When my cut starts to get wavy (I'm using the stucco panels, not the clap board) it's time for a fresh blade.
I put a gutter up along the front and back of mine and it looks OK to me. I thought about copper but I would have had to drive like 200 miles to get the stuff. The gutter would have cost me about a third what having a pro hang aluminum would have cost me so that wasn't so bad. Then I factored in all the drip edge I'd need for the sides and dormers. Ouch.
Ultimately we went with one piece aluminum. We tried to go with colors that wouldn't make baby Gustav Stickley cry in terms of paint and then spent a lot of time trying to find gutter to match the fascia board. It was woth it.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 11:34 AM on April 23, 2009
I'm rebuilding my own windows (so they'll go in the current holes in the frame as per davy_darling's answer) so I did siding first.
You can cut hardie board with a regular carbide blade, but they die fast. I take about three cuts and then sharpen the carbides with a diamond wheel (a cheapy from harbor frieght) and a dremel tool. When my cut starts to get wavy (I'm using the stucco panels, not the clap board) it's time for a fresh blade.
I put a gutter up along the front and back of mine and it looks OK to me. I thought about copper but I would have had to drive like 200 miles to get the stuff. The gutter would have cost me about a third what having a pro hang aluminum would have cost me so that wasn't so bad. Then I factored in all the drip edge I'd need for the sides and dormers. Ouch.
Ultimately we went with one piece aluminum. We tried to go with colors that wouldn't make baby Gustav Stickley cry in terms of paint and then spent a lot of time trying to find gutter to match the fascia board. It was woth it.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 11:34 AM on April 23, 2009
Windows first. It's a heck of a lot easier to flash the window and and because your current siding is in bad shape you'll probably find that their will be water damage to a sill or two, or even a stud, that should be repaired.
posted by Mitheral at 11:59 AM on April 23, 2009
posted by Mitheral at 11:59 AM on April 23, 2009
Work from the insides of the walls out. Do the windows first because they may mess up the siding in the process and then have to patch the brand new siding. Doing siding won't screw up new windows.
posted by Pollomacho at 11:59 AM on April 23, 2009
posted by Pollomacho at 11:59 AM on April 23, 2009
Hardie plank is a good replacement for the cedar. However, that cedar lasted for almost a century. Perhaps you should replace with cedar. I found that the Hardie is heavy and brittle, and I have always had a weakness for real wood. You should price both, and see what quality of cedar you can get from a real lumber yard (not Home Depot). The original was probably old growth, and newly grown wood is not as tough.
Do you really need gutters? They can help prevent the problem that you are having, with rotting exterior boards. However, the gutters themselves can cause problems. The boards they are nailed to are more likely to get damaged by rot.
posted by Midnight Skulker at 1:28 PM on April 23, 2009
Do you really need gutters? They can help prevent the problem that you are having, with rotting exterior boards. However, the gutters themselves can cause problems. The boards they are nailed to are more likely to get damaged by rot.
posted by Midnight Skulker at 1:28 PM on April 23, 2009
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If you are doing a replacement style window that fits into the existing jamb, it doesn't matter if you do windows first or siding first, as the two don't really affect each other.
If you are completely replacing the window and jamb with a "new construction" window, you should do the windows first, and then siding/new flashing second.
Hardie Board is really nice stuff. It's expensive, and a bit tricky for DIYers (it's heavy, needs special blades to cut).
A quick google gave me these sexy looking gutter brackets. (so it looks like it can be done)
posted by davey_darling at 10:28 AM on April 23, 2009