Are expensive American undergraduate educations worth it for foreign students?

April 17, 2009 4:44 AM

Is it worth it for a foreign parent to squeeze his budget to manage very expensive undergraduate educations for his children in elite American schools?

A respected colleague in Asia writes with this query. It's not so much about how to get financial aid when you are a parent of foreign student seeking an undergraduate education in the United States so much as it is a question as to whether it is worth it at all, even if you can pay.

His words are below, posted with his permission. I have stripped out identifying information. The family is not in Singapore, for what that is worth.

«I have 2 children entering university at the same time this year.

My son has won a partial scholarship to the Eastman School of Music, but even then, the amount we'd have to come up with to send him there is rather forbidding.

My daughter has been accepted into New York University to do Liberal Arts -- but without any aid, which makes it virtually impossible for us to help her realise her dream.

What resources can I apply for in the US or elsewhere to help them? We've tried ones in our country but so far without success.

Would you recommend they take up the places offered them by the 2 schools, given the constraints? Are the schools really worth the astronomical expense? (Well, I know Eastman is about second to Juilliard, and NYU is reputable, although its Arts programme is 15th in the world.)

Would it really count so much that these would be for undergraduate study? Do people look more at one's postgrad pedigree? Would it be just as well that they did their first degree elsewhere (more affordable) and seek to go higher at Eastman and NYU afterwards? (In fact, my son has also obtained a full scholarship to theYong Siew Toh Coservatory of Music in Singapore. But then, what is YST compared to Eastman?)

I'm sorry if I sound inane but this issue of my children's further education has been keeping me from sleep for quite a while.»

posted by Mo Nickels to education (28 comments total)

Are the schools really worth the astronomical expense?

Absolutely not.

Foreign students are frequently targeted for enrollment by large American institutions because they aren't eligible for financial aid. They are seen as cash cows. Boston University is a particularly egregious practitioner, going so far as to create a separate school for students that don't measure up against the academic qualifications of their peers, but can pay their own way. This school, by the way, is completely disregarded when they calculate rankings for admission (avg. GPAs of incoming students, etc.)

Brand recognition is just about the only thing these schools can offer that's measurably better than other (cheaper) schools, and neither NYU or Eastman offer enough to be worth it. Julliard? Sure. Harvard? Sure. Anywhere else loses to a full scholarship at an accredited institution. At least, if it were my son.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 5:07 AM on April 17

My first thought was to suggest trying to fund just one US year, possibly through an exchange scheme. A scheme would offer the benefits of additional contacts over simply sending a student individually.

The post-grad idea sounds very sensible. A shorter course, with people who are higher achievers. (Also, where is their future? If they are likely to stay in their country of origin, then local contacts made at university have higher value.)

The money "saved" could be used to purchase other useful experiences for the students. Visiting Europe and Japan will give much broader exposure than just seeing the US. They will also get more out of the US education if they are already experienced travellers used to living away from family.

The YST/Eastman question is also affected by the boy's reaction to being a big fish in a small pool or a small fish in a bigger pool. Presumably there is a chance that he could increase his scholarship money while at Eastman, which raises another question. Are they expected to concentrate on their studies 29 hours a day, or does character development rank alongside gaining high marks?
posted by Idcoytco at 5:11 AM on April 17

Whether or not the students are foreign isn't particularly relevant. An education is worth it, or it isn't, largely independent of a student's origins.

Whether or not the degree is going to be worth the paper it's printed on is a bigger concern. Conservatory? Really? In today's economy, you've got kids talking about music? That's a little less useful than the liberal arts degree from NYU.

And usefulness does make a difference. An elite education is exorbitantly expensive these days. Upwards of $100,000, easy. If all you're trying to buy is prestige, hey, go for it. There isn't really any other way of getting an elite education than paying through the nose these days. But if you're looking for a degree which will enable your children to have productive, stable careers... getting a liberal arts degree isn't so much the way to do that.

It's hard to predict what will be of any use, as we're in the middle of an economic crisis which may well result in a long-term reshaping of the economy. But a degree which will let you get a job in health care or education is going to be far more in demand than anything that's remotely related to poetry, as those are the two sectors of the economy that have been the least affected by the ongoing econopocalypse. Nurses (BA), physicians (MD), and technicians (AS) are all in huge demand, and unless you're trying to get your name in the papers, it almost doesn't matter where you get your degree: there's a job for you somewhere. Education is a reasonably sure bet too, but you'll do a lot better if you can teach math or science than English.

When asking whether an elite education is "worth it," the question isn't just whether your degree will enable you to get a job. It's whether it will let you get a job which pays sufficiently more than the job you could have gotten otherwise that you'll make up the tuition difference in a reasonable amount of time. A liberal arts degree which gets you a job paying $30k starts to sound like it might not be worth it when plumbers pull home $40-50k easy.

Yeah, sure, there's noise about an education being inherently valuable and making you a better person. Fine. But if you can drop six figures on "improving yourself" without any care for whether such improvements will enable you to support yourself afterwards, you're already rich. Or naive. That's an option too. This isn't the kind of thing that most people can afford to ignore, and if you can, well, I guess I hate you just a little bit.*

Long story short: I'd discourage my kids from getting the degrees these kids are talking about at any school. They're almost completely useless. If they were doing chemistry at Harvard and math with teaching certification at Stanford, hey, go for it. But music and the liberal arts are luxuries, and from the way the question is phrased, they're probably luxuries this family can't afford.

*Mostly kidding.
posted by valkyryn at 5:16 AM on April 17 [5 favorites has favorites]

Echoing everyone else. Engineering at MIT or Carnegie Mellon, that's certainly worth the cost. Liberal arts at an Ivy, not so much, unless the kid is seriously seriously dedicated to an academic career.

If your friend is in Singapore, and the kids are set on a foreign education, perhaps they could consider the Australian state unis. Check out world rankings: Melbourne and Sydney are excellent liberal arts schools.
posted by nicolas léonard sadi carnot at 5:24 AM on April 17

I have several friends who are professional musicians, and for them conservatory was totally worth it. One who was accepted there did choose not to go to Eastman, choosing instead a school with nearly as good a conservatory where more rigorous academics were also easily available. I know nothing about YST, though. It may be the perfect place for him.

I don't know enough about the Liberal Arts program at NYU to speak to it directly, but my expensive liberal arts education has been totally worth it. As it seems I always have to say on these threads, your major is not your life and a liberal arts degree really does prepare you to go out and kick ass at whatever you do next. That said, without financial aid, a fancy school in NYC is a pretty big price tag. You didn't mention where else she is considering. What does she want to do? It's fine if she doesn't know, but if you're already talking about grad school she presumably has plans.
posted by hydropsyche at 5:29 AM on April 17

Would it be just as well that they did their first degree elsewhere (more affordable) and seek to go higher at Eastman and NYU afterwards?

I've been told that doing undergrad at an American school is important in terms of getting into good graduate programs in the US, but my info is by no means authoritative.
posted by soma lkzx at 5:30 AM on April 17

IMHO after a couple of years in the work place, your university becomes so much less important. A name-brand US university will help set up a career in the US, but won't help that much in other parts of the world. I believe that Europe has a fairly low opinion is the quality of US education in general, for example.

So the answer kinda depends on what/where the questioner is planning after the university.

>Do people look more at one's postgrad pedigree?
Yes yes yes.
Do 1st degree at Hicksville College and post-doc year at MIT - you still "went to MIT"
posted by Xhris at 5:38 AM on April 17

Valkyryn, I'm all for a reshaping of our economy into one more sensible and sustainable, but I don't want to live in any world where music, poetry, and the arts are considered luxuries for the elite (which as an oxymoronic feel to it, in any event), and what's more, I am not going to tell anyone who has the musical gifts to get into Eastman or other competitive conservatories to get over themselves and get caught up on chemistry. Or to go be a surgical tech. And this is coming from a recent college administrator working in college program and advising, who has an MA and MFA in the arts, thank you very much. What's more, when I left my position in college administration with my worthless arts degrees, even in this economy, I had other offers for other positions because I had passion, experience, and genuinely liked what I did. Full disclosure--I am currently going back to school to graduate as a nurse practitioner, but this has everything to do with a passion I found through volunteering, and nothing to do with so-called proven jobs at the other end. In fact, there is some evidence that the nursing and medical field shortages and demands are very overrated. Further, the students who are barely graduating from these fields, or graduating from non- "name-brand" programs ARE having a hard time getting a job, just like everyone else. Moral? Do what you love, do it passionately, and do it better than most everyone else and there WILL be a place for you in this world. I hope when I am practicing or volunteering in my field there will still be symphony concerts to go to!

All that said, in my previous experience in college administration, international students in this asker's predicament had a few options. First, contact, in person, the school's international student program director--and make sure it's the direct or assistant director and get them interested in your case, in your student's merits. These directors often have access to limited resources for deserving students via foundation and private donations/scholarships from individuals interested in assisting international scholars. Second, investigate host family options (also through the director) for room and board vs. renting apartments or using school boarding--sometimes this is free or low cost. Finally, to investigate potential scholarships or pockets of funding for international students, contact the school's financial aid department. They are NOT eligible for financial aid, but they are often the holding department for scholarship applications and information, including those for international students. You said the students are not from Singapore, and it may be important where they're from. Students from less than first-world countries are very often eligible from assistance from these kinds of scholarships.

Best of luck and congratulations to these students!
posted by rumposinc at 5:44 AM on April 17 [3 favorites has favorites]

As a student that went to a smaller art school(but high ranking in my field) in NYC, after being rejected from NYU three separate times, I have to say that the exposure I had to such immense inspiration and stimulation in the City, was priceless. I don't think it would've been better if I attended NYU...so that could be something to consider for "your kids".
Pursuing Liberal Arts doesn't seem to me, to be something NYU does any better than other US universities. However, I did Liberal Arts for a year at Univ. of Co. Boulder and found I was exposed to a bunch of partying and skiing, not an atmosphere that I learned a lot from outside of the classroom to apply to my creative profession(which also goes for students I've met in the liberal arts program in my hometown where my dad has taught for 30 yrs). But I met an inspired photographer there that encouraged me to try for the New York school I eventually attended...so there was that gain.
My parents managed to have funds for my undergrad, so it made my experience and eventual graduation without insane student loan debt, incredibly liberating to follow my dreams. Turns out I got work the day after finishing school and have enjoyed the "worth" of this experience interminably. In my field I know I was one of a small percentage out of all the graduates in New York in the same field that have worked consistently. Part of that I attribute to the fact that I wasn't straight out of high school, i.e. I had the initiative to take internships early in my 4 year program at studios around the city, knew that this was a field I was passionate about, and I understood that any class I missed was more of me losing an edge on my future job hunting competition, rather than "playing hooky" as I could see some of the less serious students viewed it.
If your kids are serious about their field, which it seems like they are, having gained full scholarship to a music conservatory, then putting them into the right environment rather than the right school might garner just as much worth for their later pursuits as going to an elite school.
The musician son might be best served by being in a highly competitive school, but might also shine more in a less well known school, thus providing himself exposure by standing out.
If the daughter is still searching for her subject of passion, then it sounds like the experience of studying abroad and in an interesting environment might be what to focus on, rather than top dollar schools. Then later she can zero in on post grad. studies at the school that has the best rep for her field.
Btw, I worked in the school's residence hall, in order to slightly offset costs for my parents and received free housing as well.
posted by talljamal at 5:46 AM on April 17

P.S.

One last thing to check--go back to the students' departments and describe your situation, especially to the department that awarded your son's scholarship. Sometimes, especially after the first round of spring awards, departments still have some extra money to lure reluctant or less than fully funded or unfunded students. This is especially true if they are not getting confirmation letters from their first choice candidates as the spring wears on. Sometimes you'll have to keep checking, but once they know your name, they will often look harder and keep an eye out.
posted by rumposinc at 5:47 AM on April 17

It is important to note that some colleges and universities in the US actually do consider foreign students for both need- and merit-based financial aid. I don't know if there is a centralized list of this (one would think so, given the numbers of foreign students, but it's not something I've ever looked for), or if you would have to just ask each school.

The point being, it shouldn't be a black-and-white, either/or choice between paying full cost or not going at all.

And, sadly, there is another factor (which is why the Australian universities are booming) -- the current unpredictability and unpleasantness of getting a US student visa. It's far from impossible (as attested by the large numbers of foreign students here), but also not easy and there's no guarantee that the visa won't show up a month after school starts. It all depends on your nationality, your family situation, political connections, economic status, and just plain luck.
posted by Forktine at 6:04 AM on April 17 [1 favorite has favorites]

In terms of sheer economy, you really can't beat starting at a junior college, transferring to a solid state school, then pursuing a grad degree where you really wanted to go. Where you got your undergrad degree doesn't matter as much.
posted by electroboy at 6:14 AM on April 17 [2 favorites has favorites]

As a parent dealing with this issues on a smaller scale, I'd stick with places where they can get full scholarships, as mentioned in the original post. There's no need to go into major debt, especially in today's economy.

That said, having attended American community colleges (Catonsville Community College in Baltimore) and "elite" schools (Savannah College of Art and Design) to get a Liberal Arts degree (Sequential Art of all things), I'd say there IS a difference, in the student mindset, administration mindset, general (not specific) teacher quality and the school infrastructure. Elite schools tend to have a mindset, in their DNA, that they are great and their students are great and will do great things and that's almost priceless in terms of challenging students.

The biggest issue I see here though your friend is focused on certain school(s). There are plenty of good, high quality schools all over the world, so it's not a major blow if the kids don't get into THIS specific school or THAT specific program.

Finally, to repeat, do not underestimate the value of a full scholarship, which would allow the parents to assist the kids financially in other ways.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:16 AM on April 17

I know little about the music world and Eastman. My sense is that in a global sense, Harvard/Princeton/Yale carry huge weight even if you're trying to get hired by Antarctican penguins, but that NYU doesn't so much.

I would be thinking about:

(1) What are my children's career hopes, or my dreams for them, and what other universities have they been accepted by? If they hope to remain in AsianCountry and have little or no interest in trying to establish a global career, then admission to a good AsianCountry university should be as good or better than NYU. NYU would only be better if they were hoping to have a career in places where locally respected universities weren't well known, but NYU was.

(2) Do your kids have, or do you have for them, hopes that they might emigrate to the US? If so, attending a US university could be a good informal foot in the door. It can help set up contacts that end up willing to hire you and do the visa work. Or, just being around lots of American citizens (probably including American citizens of your ethnicity, if that's important to you) increases the probability of eventual marriage and the resulting immigration route.

In terms of sheer economy, you really can't beat starting at a junior college, transferring to a solid state school, then pursuing a grad degree where you really wanted to go. Where you got your undergrad degree doesn't matter as much.

This is not really true in an international setting or even nationally. Attending Florida State or Georgia just doesn't have the same impact and open the same doors if you're trying to get a job in the Pacific Northwest or Seoul or Brussels. And attending many state schools as a foreign student is almost as expensive as attending a private school at any rate. Yeah yeah, different if you get a PhD or terminal professional degree.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:33 AM on April 17

As an alum of a small liberal arts school with a degree in English/Creative Writing, of all things, I resent the implication that such a degree is a career death sentence. It may not obviously lead into a career in the same way that a finance degree would put you straight into banking, but it's not like that's a viable option these days anyway. Friends from my program have gone on to do very interesting things and to have solid jobs. I went on to law school and upon graduation will have good jobs available to me. The fact that I didn't take math or science or really anything with a direct practical application while in college hasn't seemed to hinder me.

I also disagree with electroboy's notion that it doesn't really matter where you got your undergrad degree. Getting an undergraduate degree from an elite institution will improve your child's chances of getting into a top graduate program and will provide them access to a much better alumni network than being just another faceless state-school graduate will. While it's certainly possible to be very successful going the state-school route, going to a better school will better prepare your child for success.

Of course, if you can't afford it, then you can't afford it. I couldn't have gone where I did as an undergraduate if the school hadn't given me an obscene amount of scholarship aid. That said, it's worth looking into some of the better-endowed liberal arts schools, as they may very well have money available even for international students.
posted by sinfony at 6:46 AM on April 17 [1 favorite has favorites]

You can haggle with music schools!

If your son is indeed good at what he does, the professor he auditioned with can up his scholarship offer. From the three U.S. schools I applied to as an international student (also ineligible for financial aid), two ended up significantly increasing their scholarship offers after I told them that I had been accepted into a better school. I ended up going to the one that offered the least money but was considered the most "elite", and then lost my scholarship completely when I changed majors from music to biochemistry.
posted by halogen at 7:23 AM on April 17 [1 favorite has favorites]

I strongly agree with many aspects of sinfony's answer.

I will say that it is ridiculous to dismiss a liberal arts education because it does not correspond to a job title. "Business education" does not teach students to think or write. As far as I can tell it teaches students that all answers and ideas can be distilled into Powerpoint presentations.

In terms of ability to express ideas, concrete or abstract in writing-- a skill most in "business" need-- no major compares to liberal arts. I don't know how or when other majors pick up these skills, because it is certainly not in college.

The family should consider:

1) If NYU or Eastman really wanted the applicant, the school would make it happen. It is worthwhile to contact both schools, by phone, e-mail and in writing to explain the situation of family finances. They might be surprised that more money is forthcoming.

a) The student him or herself should do the pleading with Eastman and NYU, not the father.

b) When doing so don't mention the names of schools that admitted the sibling; be upfront about the burden it is for your family to educate two children at the same time, but vague as to where that education is taking place.

c) That said, this is a very bad year to expect schools to offer funding. Many schools canceled job searches, put in place salary freezes, and took other drastic measures to cut costs. This family might be out of luck.

2) NYU might be a great school, but there's dozens if not hundreds of others that would cost a fraction of NYU and offer a wonderful experience. I agree that for an American the experience of living in NYC is transformative. It is less so for non-US residents coming from cities as large or larger than New York.

From a truly transnational perspective, NY looks less unique perhaps than Americans think it is. Singapore, Tokyo, Mexico City, etc. are just as large and vibrant as New York. So if this family comes from a cosmopolitan city like one of those, then the experience of New York will be less of a revelation than Americans assume it is.

They should look beyond NYU and NYC, if only because of the costs. What about the schools in the NY state system?

3) There's a lot to be said for the name value and alumni connections of an Ivy League school. Internationally, Harvard/Yale and maybe Princeton will open doors. NYU does not have the name value of those two or three in Asia. Besides, name value and alumni connections are not reasons to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars. The competitive edge is not worth it.

4) It sounds like the son has a gift and a chance to pursue a professional career. However, I don't think a partial scholarship merits choosing Eastman over the affordable, slightly less prestigious option.

5) To reiterate sinfony, "if you can't afford it, then you can't afford it." That's the way it is for bright and exception students everywhere.
posted by vincele at 8:07 AM on April 17

Boy there's a lot of anti-liberal arts prejudice in here. i got a BA in History from Columbia, which has a strong liberal arts curriculum, and I work as a software developer. My time there taught me how to think critically, and probably contributed as much (if not more) to my success than a CS degree would have.

valkyryn: Whether or not the degree is going to be worth the paper it's printed on is a bigger concern. Conservatory? Really? In today's economy, you've got kids talking about music? That's a little less useful than the liberal arts degree from NYU.

That's quite an arrogant put-down of a whole segment of the population who choose to pursue a life in the arts. It's not all about the money to everyone.
posted by mkultra at 8:14 AM on April 17 [2 favorites has favorites]

Unless it's Ivy League, in many places in Asia, it's not going to be worth it. An acquaintance of mine, in Korea, got a degree from a well-respected American school. The opportunity cost of an American school--in terms of contacts that you would've made in university within your own country--is large. An Ivy makes up for that in prestige, but many other American schools don't, not in Asia. It depends on the Asian country, though, and it depends on... well, lots of things. But, in general, I think this is true. If the kids plan to work in the US, that's different. But, again, it depends on lots of situation-specific facts.
posted by smorange at 8:56 AM on April 17

I meant to include that my acquaintance hasn't been able to find a job for the last year.
posted by smorange at 8:57 AM on April 17

- If they hope to remain in AsianCountry and have little or no interest in trying to establish a global career, then admission to a good AsianCountry university should be as good or better than NYU. NYU would only be better if they were hoping to have a career in places where locally respected universities weren't well known, but NYU was.

Sometimes Western universities are more respected than local universities, in certain Asian countries. This also depends - to some extent - on which tier those Western universities are on... but within the Asian country I come from (Singapore), schools ranging from Boston University to NYU to (naturally) Harvard/Yale/Princeton etc are (imo, anyway) generally seen as having more prestige and value than local universities. My Korean roommate says the same of South Korean universities vs that same group of American universities. (Different American universities may be valued differently within different Asian countries though... I am not sure about yours.)

- As for YST... it is affiliated with Peabody Conservatory in the USA (which is, uh, affiliated with the college I currently attend). But I don't know that much about it. I've met YST students that have done a semester here at Peabody (they seemed to like both places). So if your son wants the "study-abroad" experience but wants to save money... then he could attend YST and apply to do a semester abroad at Peabody.
But I would definitely second halogen's suggestion of negotiating with Eastman! If your son has any contacts or professors that are particularly interested in him, there's a good chance he can get a better scholarship offer from Eastman, I think.

- Um... as for stuff like:
Whether or not the students are foreign isn't particularly relevant. An education is worth it, or it isn't, largely independent of a student's origins. and
The money "saved" could be used to purchase other useful experiences for the students. Visiting Europe and Japan will give much broader exposure than just seeing the US. They will also get more out of the US education if they are already experienced travellers used to living away from family.

I'm not sure if I agree. Maybe this is partly to do with where I come from, but an education is so much more than what you learn academically, especially if you study in a country that is culturally quite different from the country you grew up in. Where I come from, the "overseas education experience" is encouraged because it gives students a chance to be exposed to very different ways of thinking, living and being such that... well such that you're paying for a much more holistic educational experience than if you just stayed in your home country (or a similar Asian country) for your tertiary education.
And these multi-dimensional merits of such an education can be seen in ways that extend into their professional adult lives, too. A good number of employers (within my, er, Asian country) value candidates that have been educated overseas not just because of the "Western university" brand name degree, but because that qualification carries with it the assumption (whether justified or not) that that person carries valuable life-skills, character traits, and fresh perspectives borne from his/her overseas experience that a "local university"-educated grad might not have.

- Also, what do your children intend to do after they finish their undergrad degree? Where do they intend to build their careers? Like others have suggested, if they intend to build their careers in the USA, or on a more global level, going to NYU / Eastman would give them a good foot in the door. (Although, like I've said - even if they intend to remain within their home country for most of their lives, the "Western university" brand name factor would help there too... (depending on which Asian country you come from... but this does seem to be the case for a number of Asian countries at least).)
posted by aielen at 10:00 AM on April 17

This is not really true in an international setting or even nationally. Attending Florida State or Georgia just doesn't have the same impact and open the same doors if you're trying to get a job in the Pacific Northwest or Seoul or Brussels.

It all depends on what your chosen field is. A Harvard degree may be helpful if you're trying to work outside your degree, but not particularly so if there are stronger state institutions. Besides, if you're planning on pursuing a grad degree your undergrad is going to be mostly meaningless by the time you finish.
posted by electroboy at 11:01 AM on April 17

Whether or not the degree is going to be worth the paper it's printed on is a bigger concern. Conservatory? Really? In today's economy, you've got kids talking about music? That's a little less useful than the liberal arts degree from NYU.

Hogwash. Education shouldn't be merely job training. The value of an education goes beyond "earning potential."
posted by GPF at 11:39 AM on April 17

A Harvard degree may be helpful if you're trying to work outside your degree, but not particularly so if there are stronger state institutions.

Only if the people interviewing you in Toulouse or Beijing or St. Petersburg also are familiar with the strength of the state school.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:43 PM on April 17

Again, undergrad liberal arts degrees aren't particularly useful for getting a job. It's sort of assumed you'd be doing at least a masters. NYU is great for a few things, but it doesn't have the name recognition of Harvard, so I don't see how there's going to be 14 grand in additional benefit.
posted by electroboy at 4:03 PM on April 17

"Liberal arts degrees teach you to think critically". . . blah, blah blah.

Look, I have a liberal arts degree. Double major, philosophy and history. And if I hadn't decided to go to law school I'd probably still be working three part-time jobs, or, at best, teaching high school and middle school at the tiny private school I worked at before law school. I had a lot of fun there, but the $24k a year they were paying worked out to a little more than minimum wage. Sure, getting that degree certainly did improve my thinking skills, and I can't deny that for some people it works out wonderfully.

But for a huge number of people it doesn't, and the ability to "think critically" isn't the kind of thing that easily shows up on a resume. mkultra, do you really think you could have gotten the job you did, with the degree you did, if "Columbia University" hadn't been on the top of your resume? Really? I can tell you that it or something like it wasn't at the top of mine, and getting employers to call me back was excruciating. If anything, the fact that you are where you are is a testimony to the fact that names do, in fact, matter a lot.

Getting a job with just a liberal arts undergraduate degree is, in my experience, and in the experience of a statistically significant section of the population, really, really hard. Yeah, there are ways to be creative about it. Sure, you do learn a lot of stuff. But much of it is the kind of stuff that doesn't make feeding yourself any easier.

The OP asked whether the massive price tag of elite educational institutions was worth it. If we're talking about money, and we are, the conclusion to reach is that if you're pursuing a liberal arts degree, it can take way over a decade to break even on the proposition. That doesn't sound like a sound investment to me, unless you're willing to pay that kind of premium for the admittedly awesome experience that is college these days. But as that experience basically precludes taking much in the way of a position of responsibility in one's family or community, it's essentially paying a huge chunk of change to extend adolescence into one's early-to-mid twenties.

If that isn't a luxury, I don't know what is.
posted by valkyryn at 4:53 PM on April 17 [1 favorite has favorites]

mkultra, do you really think you could have gotten the job you did, with the degree you did, if "Columbia University" hadn't been on the top of your resume? Really?

No, you're right. I didn't rely on smart, talent, hard work or any of that useless stuff (if you must know, I started as an office temp, and many of my jobs have been recruitments from former coworkers). Look, it's hard to take that kind of criticism seriously when you've clearly got some kind of personal bone to pick.
posted by mkultra at 8:33 PM on April 17 [1 favorite has favorites]

If we're talking about money, and we are

From the original question, I think it's pretty clear that money isn't the only concern. It seems to be a cost/benefit analysis in which many benefits are being considered, and future earning potential for either child was not mentioned as one of them. Obviously, the poster is free to correct me.

My impression was that his colleague was wondering if the experience of attending the programs of their dreams was "worth" the cost in a variety of ways. Since his son is only considering conservatories, I would imagine that he is aware that professional musicians rarely make a lot of money, and thus the question is not "which conservatory should my son attend so that he can make the most money?" but rather "Is the benefit for his art of attending the #2 ranked conservatory in the world worth the financial investment by his parents?"

I can only assume, since we have no information about her career goals, that the question about NYU for his daughter is similar: "Can attend a local university for considerably less money and get as rich and rewarding an experience as the one she envisions at NYU?"

It is absolutely a privilege to get to study what we love, just as it is a privilege to work in a field we love and get paid well enough to get by. No, we may not earn as much money as those who have different priorities.
posted by hydropsyche at 8:25 AM on April 18