Grade/Grammar/Elementary School

April 8, 2009 3:42 PM

Do you call it Grade School, Grammar School, or Elementary School?

Is there any difference between Grade School, Grammar School, and Elementary School? In the US, these are common names for the school that a child attends. I think this usually refers to the school one attends from kindergarten through fifth grade (ages 5-10?). Is it a regional thing in terms of the name that is used? Is grammar school an archaic use? I think Junior High and Middle School are also somewhat synonymous, no?

posted by otherwordlyglow to Education (74 answers total)

Where I grew up during the 1980s..

Pre-School was first.
Kindergarten came after.
Elementary School was where I went for grades 1 - 5.
Middle School was after that for grades 6 - 8, but, yes, was used synonymously with Junior High.
posted by kbanas at 3:45 PM on April 8, 2009

If you're interested in regional information, this is from Michigan.
posted by kbanas at 3:45 PM on April 8, 2009

I grew up in the southeast calling 1-6 grades elementary school, grades 7 and 8 junior high or middle school, depending on my mood, and grades 9-12 high school. Ms. Quizicalcoatl (also from the South) followed the same formula.
posted by Quizicalcoatl at 3:47 PM on April 8, 2009

Elementary school was grades 1-6 (6 yrs - 12 yrs) and middle school was grades 7-8. 1980s Wisconsin, for reference.
posted by desjardins at 3:47 PM on April 8, 2009

We called it "lower school". (My school was preschool-12th grade.)
posted by phunniemee at 3:48 PM on April 8, 2009

This is so regional.

I heard all of these in the midwest used interchangeably, though some people used "grade school" to also include high school as well, since that's the set of years called "grade" something (grade 1 to 12). That makes sense enough for me: Grade School = Elementary + High.

Junior High didn't exist for me (we had a single high school that was 9-12) but where it does exist, I believe it's either 8-10 or 9-10.

"Grammar School" and "Middle School" clang as British on my ear, but I have enough trouble sorting out the British use of "Public School" to get a headache, so I'll stop there.
posted by rokusan at 3:48 PM on April 8, 2009

Coming from California, I say Elementary School. I also consider Junior High to be grades 7-8 and Middle School to be grades 6-8.
posted by annaramma at 3:48 PM on April 8, 2009

I grew up in Virginia and we called it elementary school. Probably because it was in the name of the school, ex. Reams Road Elementary School. We also called it middle school for the same reason, although I've heard people use junior high on occasion.
posted by MaryDellamorte at 3:48 PM on April 8, 2009

Primary school in Australia and the UK. Grammar school is a type of private school (usually Anglican and covering both primary and high school-age) in Australia and an academic-focussed high school in the UK.
posted by goo at 3:50 PM on April 8, 2009

Oh, also in Wisconsin - Catholic "grade school" is grades 1-8. Never heard that called "elementary" or "grammar" school.
posted by desjardins at 3:50 PM on April 8, 2009

Both in El Paso, Texas and in western Washington I attended Elementary School. My Washington school district had, at the time, K-5 Elementary, 6-7 Middle, 8-9 Junior High, 10-12 High School. Since then, 9th grade has been transferred to the high school, but I don't know what became of the terminology for 6-8.

You might add to your list "Primary School," though that was not ordinarily used where I'm from.

Less authoritatively, to me "grammar school" sounds archaic and/or snooty.
posted by eritain at 3:52 PM on April 8, 2009

"Grammar School" and "Middle School" clang as British on my ear, but I have enough trouble sorting out the British use of "Public School" to get a headache, so I'll stop there.

I've never heard it referred to as Middle School in the UK. As goo says, it's Primary School between the ages of 5 and 11, then on to Comprehensive School until you're 16 (also known as Secondary School and increasingly called High School).
posted by afx237vi at 3:54 PM on April 8, 2009

Grew up in Saskatchewan. Grades 1-8 were elementary school, 9-12 were high school. Then I moved to British Columbia and here (depending on where you are) 1-7 is elementary school, 8-10 is junior secondary, and 11-12 are senior secondary. So everywhere I've lived in Canada it's always been elementary. Only heard of the grade/grammar school thing in books or on TV.
posted by barc0001 at 3:54 PM on April 8, 2009

All three of yours, plus Primary School, are synonyms as far as I'm concerned.
posted by lampoil at 3:55 PM on April 8, 2009

From southeastern Virginia. Called it elementary school (grades K-5), except in the places where this was split into two schools, primary school (K-2) and intermediate school (3-5). Grades 6-8 were middle school.

Grade school was a seldom-used term. Grammar school was what my grandparents called it.
posted by Night_owl at 3:55 PM on April 8, 2009

Does anyone else, after reading this thread, no longer see "school" as a word with any meaning?
posted by Night_owl at 3:58 PM on April 8, 2009

I called it Elementary school until the Simpson's came out, I don't like the way it sounds when Skinner says Elementary school so now I call it grade school. California if you are counting regions.
posted by notned at 4:01 PM on April 8, 2009

Rhode Island:
Elementary School is grades 1-6, Junior High is grades 7-9, High School is 1-12
posted by jammy at 4:05 PM on April 8, 2009

From North Dakota, although I don't speak for the entirety of my state: Grade School was K - 6, Junior High was 7 - 9, High School was 10 - 12, in the 1980s. Across town, Junior High was 6 - 8 and High School was 9 - 12, but they were always a little weird.
posted by AzraelBrown at 4:05 PM on April 8, 2009

I'm from Alabama. Here are three different permutations from my hometown.

I went to the following private schools:
Preschool (age 3-4)
Grade School (kindergarten to 8th grade)
High School (9th-12th grade)

My public school peers went to:
Elementary School (kindergarten to 5th grade)
Middle School (6th-8th grade)
High School (9th-12th grade)

My mother, who was in public schools in my hometown in the 60s and 70s, went to:
A Kindergarten (age 4 and/or 5) This was private—it was in a woman's home.
Elementary School (1st-6th grade)
Junior High School (7th-9th grade)
Senior High School (10th-12th grade)

The different names indicated not regional but rather structural differences.
posted by ocherdraco at 4:07 PM on April 8, 2009

East Tn: K-6 elementary school, 7-8 Jr High (primarily) or middle school (occasionally), and 9-12 was high school.
posted by kimdog at 4:10 PM on April 8, 2009

In small-town southern Ontario I always equated grade school with K-8 and called it that, sometimes elementary school. We didn't have middle schools where I grew up, just K-8 and 9-12 (13 once upon a time).
posted by GuyZero at 4:10 PM on April 8, 2009

Massachusetts, went to elementary school in the 1970s, always called it "elementary school", which meant grade 1 through grade 6.

We didn't have middle school in my regional school district: we had "junior high" which was grades 7 and 8, and then "high school" was grades 9 through 12. Now they've changed the name for grades 7 and 8 to "middle school" because I guess that's the fad these days.

As a kid, I understood "grade school" to be synonymous with "elementary school." "Grammar school" wasn't something I encountered outside of its UK/Commonwealth meaning.
posted by Sidhedevil at 4:11 PM on April 8, 2009

I've heard Grammar and Elementary schools being (Pre)K-5, but when I hear Grade school, I always think of the numbered grades (Pre)K-8. But that's how it was around where I grew up.
posted by deezil at 4:13 PM on April 8, 2009

Oh, yes, I went to a private kindergarten, because I am old and there was no public kindergarten in my town then. I guess I would refer to a kindergarten that was held in the same school building as grades 1-6 as part of the "elementary school."

In the educational profession in the US, people usually say "K-6" or "K-12" or "K-8" or whatever to avoid confusion with the different regional terms.
posted by Sidhedevil at 4:13 PM on April 8, 2009

Response by poster: Right, forgot Primary School. Huh.I grew up in the midwest (Chicago suburbs) and went to public schools my whole life. For some reason now I feel like Junior High was 6-8 and Middle School was 7-8. But K was definitely part of grade/elementary/grammar/primary school, which was usually K-5. I think the public schools in San Francisco here are K-5 and called Elementary. Looks like they don'[t use the junior high label either.
posted by otherwordlyglow at 4:19 PM on April 8, 2009

I went to elementary school in the late 80s and early 90s. I know the other terms, but when I hear them they sound funny to me. I grew up in Houston, TX if that helps.
posted by Nattie at 4:29 PM on April 8, 2009

I went to publc grade school in the early 1990s in Texas. Grades K-5 were elementary school, 6-8 middle school (or in some older schools in town, junior high school), grades 9-12 were high school. AFAIK, it's the same way in my area now.
posted by fructose at 4:30 PM on April 8, 2009

That would be public, not publc.
posted by fructose at 4:30 PM on April 8, 2009

Southwestern Ontario, I went to catholic grammer school (K-8) and catholic secondary school (9-13/OAC). My husband attended public elementary school (k-5), middle school (6-8) and public high school (9-13/OAC).

As an aside, apparently there are regional differences whether you call it grade one/grade twelve or first grade/tweflth grade. I was raised to call it first grade.
posted by saucysault at 4:32 PM on April 8, 2009

I went to Grade School 1-6, Junior High 7-8, and High School 9-12.
They changed it to move 6th grade to be in the Junior High between me and my younger sister, so she had 3 years of Junior High. My Mom went to Junior High 7-9, and High School 10-12. My husband went to Catholic Grade School 1-8, and High School 9-12. This is all within the greater St. Louis Metropolitan Area.

(and my cousin in England went to public school...which is private, not public...and then there's some sort of exams...)
posted by Green Eyed Monster at 4:32 PM on April 8, 2009

Growing up in California in the 1970s, we went to preschool, elementary school, junior high school, then high school. Although my parents used the terms grade/grammar/elementary school interchangeably, none of us kids ever called it anything but elementary school.
posted by chez shoes at 4:35 PM on April 8, 2009

Right, there is also "primary school" (1-8?) which I think is that mandated by the state as required, and "secondary school" (9-12?) which is that. I think the map mostly but not perfectly to "elementary" and "high".

This thread is confirming what I suspected: it's all pretty loose.
posted by rokusan at 4:45 PM on April 8, 2009

In the Cayman Islands, primary school is grades 1-6, and high school is grades 7-12.
posted by teraflop at 4:54 PM on April 8, 2009

I grew up in northern Virginia, went to elementary school grades 1-6, intermediate school (la-di-da) grades 7 & 8, and high school grades 9-12. My brother and sister went to a secondary school grades 7-12.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:58 PM on April 8, 2009

I've never heard it referred to as Middle School in the UK. As goo says, it's Primary School between the ages of 5 and 11, then on to Comprehensive School until you're 16 (also known as Secondary School and increasingly called High School).

There are 2 state funded systems for secondaru education depending on where you live in the UK, and these also have some variation. These are leavened by the option to go provate if you can afford it, wherever you live. System 1 is the old system where you do exams or are selected on some other basis to qualify for acceptance into a grammar school others go to secondary schools, this is limited to certain parts of the UK. System 2 is comprehensives, where everyone goes to the same schools, this is the case in most of the UK. Secondary education generally runs 11-16 but can be 12-16. There is an option to stay until 18 though this will soon be compulsory. Generally UK primary education runs 7-11 though it can go until 12, pupils start at infant schools from 4/5 and this can also be termed primary.
posted by biffa at 5:02 PM on April 8, 2009

I grew up in central Indiana and called it grade school (K-5), Junior High (6-8) and High School (9-12). My kids were born and are being raised in Southwestern Ohio and it's Preschool (usually starting around age 3 but there are preschools that start at age 2), Elementary School (k-6), Middle School (7-8) and High School (9-12). But it's all district specific. So the next town over might have some differing configuration, usually in the Junior High/Middle School area.

My mother grew up in a very small town that had one school, grades k-12 and they called it Comprehensive School, or just "school" for short.
posted by cooker girl at 5:12 PM on April 8, 2009

Data point from the Pacific Northwest: Same as kbanas
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 5:17 PM on April 8, 2009

For me (southern Connecticut)...

Elementary school = K-6
Middle school = 7&8 (Well...we referred to those grades/that age as "middle school," but referred to the building itself as "the intermediate school." The actual name of the school was "[Town] Intermediate School".)
High school = 9-12
posted by pemberkins at 5:18 PM on April 8, 2009

I grew up in Florida in the 80s and early 90s. Grades K-5 were Elementary School. 6-8 were Middle School (or Junior High was also common). 9-12 were High School.

I feel like Primary School was used occasionally (but usually when referring to the early grades, 1-3). I don't think people around me ever called any school Grade school (except maybe in recalling their own childhoods) and definitely not Grammar school ever. Also, my middle school and high school were actually one and the same (with one principal, but different buildings on the same campus, kind of), so one was the Middle School and the other, the High School.

There was no distinction between Middle School and Junior High. We had 6-8 grade schools that were called both.
posted by bluefly at 5:20 PM on April 8, 2009

New Jersey in the '80s and '90s (and 2000/2001):

pre-school
kindergarten-5th grade were elementary school
6th grade-8th grade were middle school
9th grade-12th grade were high school

Never used/rarely heard used "junior high" to describe middle school.
posted by Godbert at 5:33 PM on April 8, 2009

Rochester, NY area in the 1990's and still today:

Preschool
Kindergarten
Elementary school: 1-5 [Primary school: 1-3]
Middle school: 6-8
High school: 9-12
posted by thewestinggame at 5:38 PM on April 8, 2009

In the 1980s and 1990s I went to an Elementary school in Massachusetts that comprised grades K-6, and a junior high school for grades 7-9. In Michigan, intermediate school was grades 7-9 and high school school was grades 10-12. Since then, I know the Michigan school system I went to restructured and now has Middle Schools (grades 6-8) and High Schools (grades 9-12).
posted by ellenaim at 5:41 PM on April 8, 2009

New Jersey, 1980s.

Elementary School for K-3.
Grade school for 4-6.
Middle School for 7-9.
High School for 10-12.

I think Elementary and Grade schools were differentiated because they were in two different school buildings on opposite sides of town.
posted by cabingirl at 5:49 PM on April 8, 2009

In the Upper Midwest:
elementary school is k-5 or k-6
middle school is grades 6-8 (occasionally just 7-8)
junior high school is grades 7-9
high school is grades 9-12 or 10-12
posted by lakeroon at 6:00 PM on April 8, 2009

I grew up on the South Side of Chicago and went to Catholic school. Everyone I know called K-8 Grammar School. I think that "grammar" school is specifically popular with the South Side Catholic Irish Immigrant crowd, as I haven't heard anyone outside of that crowd call it Grammar school, as evident by no one else in this thread.
posted by TheArpenter at 6:03 PM on April 8, 2009

My educational experience in North Carolina:
Elementary school: K-5
Middle School: 6-8
High school: 9-12

But my family in Minnesota was:
Elementary: K-6
Junior High: 7-9
Senior High: 10-12

This was 1986-2001, respectively.
posted by greta simone at 6:09 PM on April 8, 2009

Northeast Ohio:

Public schools:
(Most kids went to preschool somewhere)
(Kindergarten)
Elementary school for 1-5.
Middle school for 6-8.
High school for 9-12.

Catholic parochial schools:
(Most students went to preschool somewhere)
Kindergarten (parish-run, but in a different building and not part of the grade school)
Grade school for 1-8
High school for 9-12

Private Catholic school:
Montessori preschool & kindergarten
Lower school for 1-6
Middle school for 7-8
Upper school for 9-12 (in some contexts; you would, however, say "I'm in high school" not "I'm in Upper School", although you might say "I entered the Upper School last year.")

"Grade school" I've generally understood to refer to grades 1-8; it's more or less synomymous with "Primary school", though the latter might be construed to include kindergarten, perhaps. "Secondary school" is "High school." "Junior High" I rarely heard, but would map to grades 6-8 in a public school. "Grammar school" I never ran into except in books, and I would not be entirely sure whether it meant 1-5/6 or 1-8.
posted by ubersturm at 6:11 PM on April 8, 2009

The first school I went to down in Florida divvied the students into "primary house" (elementary school), "intermediate house" (middle school), and "upper house" (high school). There weren't strict grades -- the school was small enough that all the kids in a given "house" intermingled in the same classes.

After my family moved to Alabama, the new school I went to organized by the more standard lower/middle/upper school system (grades 1-4, 5-8, 9-12).
posted by Rhaomi at 6:22 PM on April 8, 2009

Pacific Northwest in the 80s:

Kindergarten
Elementary school: 1-5
Middle school: 6-8
High school: 9-12

I never heard anyone say "grammar school" or "junior high."
posted by edrnjevich at 6:41 PM on April 8, 2009

Arkansas, mostly 90's:
I went to Catholic school through 9th grade, but public schools still went by the same terms.

Elementary K-6
Junior High 7-9
High School 10-12

FWIW, no one around here calls it 'middle school.'
posted by CwgrlUp at 6:54 PM on April 8, 2009

Central Ohio (switched from public to non-religious private in 7th grade)

Kindergarten (age 5 or 6)

Grades 1-5 were elementary school at my public school
*Forms* 1-5 were lower school at my private school

Grades and Forms 6-8 were middle school

Grades 9-12 were high school at the public school
Forms 9-12 were upper school at the private school

And we referred to "lower schoolers", "upper schoolers", etc, at the private school.
posted by olinerd at 7:05 PM on April 8, 2009

My education is semi-rural Northern California

Elementary School K-8
High School 9-12
posted by CarolynG at 7:09 PM on April 8, 2009

Metro Atlanta. Public school. 1980s:
Elementary School = K-7
High School = 8-12

It changed not long after I left and became:
Elementary = K-5
Middle = 6-8
High = 9-12

Grade school and grammar school were things I heard some people my parents' age, possibly older, and certainly my grandparents' age, call it.
posted by Askr at 7:41 PM on April 8, 2009

Montreal. We have two systems, 1-6 and 7-11. These are known, in English, as elementary (sometimes primary or primaire from the French influence) and then either secondary or high school. This was in the 80s to mid 90s for me, and what teenagers I currently interact with call it. I would usually consider that kindergarten is part of elementary school.

Some private schools call 6-8 or 7-8 middle school, but that's specific to those schools.
posted by jeather at 7:46 PM on April 8, 2009

I went to Catholic school in Chicago for grades 1-8 and everyone I know who went to any Catholic school calls it grammar school.
posted by Hop123 at 8:08 PM on April 8, 2009

Central Indiana, 1970's:

grade school (K-6) -- "elementary" was only used in the school's official name
junior high (7-8)
senior high (9-12)

Of course, this changes. When my parents were going through the same school system, junior high was grades 7-9 and senior high was grades 10-12, and sometime in the '90's when grades 6-8 were moved to a new building, apparently "middle school" replaced "junior high". Oh, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone actually use "grammar school"; I know about that usage only through books and whatnot.
posted by worldswalker at 8:09 PM on April 8, 2009

New Jersey in 70s and 80s:

Elementary: K-5
Middle School: 6-8
High School: 9-12

Though in the town I'm living in now, they have this fucked set up where it's:

Elementary: K-5
"Central 6 School": 6
Middle: 7-8
High School: 9-12

Yes, there's one lone school for the *entire* district where everybody goes for 6th grade. The School Board's theory is that it's 'too stressful' to transition fifth graders in with all the 7th and 8th graders so fast. Um. OK. Maybe it's too stressful for me to be paying such ridiculous taxes, but that's another thread.
posted by dancinglamb at 8:16 PM on April 8, 2009

Midwest, specifically Central Illinois in the 1990s/2000s--elementary school was K-5 & junior high was 6-8 in one school district. Halfway through 6th grade, I moved across town and changed districts to where elementary school was K-6, with junior high being 7th-8th grades. I believe they've restructured and changed to the K-5/6-8 now though.

I've heard of people say "grade school" and "middle school," but officially they are all elementary and junior high. I've never heard "grammar school" used by a local.
posted by joydivasian at 8:16 PM on April 8, 2009

Chicago suburbs, 1970's-- public school was "grade school", 1-8, and the private Catholic 1-8 was "grammar school". Today in Los Angeles, my son goes to a public elementary school (sometimes even parents refer to it as 'k through 5'), he'll go to middle school for grades 6-8 and high school for 9-12.
posted by maryh at 8:43 PM on April 8, 2009

Ex-Urban Missouri:
I went to Kindergarten, then Elementary School, then Junior High...
posted by schyler523 at 9:06 PM on April 8, 2009

In southern Ontario in the seventies, I attended what was interchangeably grade school or elementary school, or slightly less commonly, primary school. Grammar school was a term I would not have connected to my days in Mrs Abbott's class, and for what it's worth, I barely ever heard the term junior high, and never in connection with my own schooling.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:28 PM on April 8, 2009

British Columbia. Elementary school (K to 7), then high school (8 to 12).
posted by tickingclock at 9:45 PM on April 8, 2009

We called it Elementary School, but Grade School was widely understood. Grammar School would be understood, but a little old-fashioned. (Late 70s-early 80s, mid-Atlantic.)

We did acknowledge lower and upper (grades 1-3 and 4-6, respectively) but didn't use those terms.

We had some inconsistencies in our district. Elementary School was either K-5 or K-6 depending on where you lived. We called Junior High grades 7-9 and Senior High as 10-12 OR Middle School as 6-8 and High School as 9-12.

We were sort of transitioning, though. So I went to Elementary through 6th grade, then had Middle School (which had been called Junior High a couple of years before and had had a 9th grade) for only 7th-8th grade, then High School.
posted by desuetude at 10:18 PM on April 8, 2009

In Canada, many places (except Ontario, Quebec, and probably -- but I don't know for sure -- Newfoundland-Labrador and Nunavut) use the following:

Kindergarten (age 5; sometimes junior kindergarten at age 4). In Alberta, kindergarten is sometimes referred to as ECS for Early Childhood Services.

Elementary school (generally grades 1-6, ages about 6-12, although when I was growing up in NS there was a quasi-kindergarten year called "Primary" which older folks or folks from rural areas often pronounced "primmer")

Junior high school (grades 7-9, ages about 13-15)

Senior high school (grades 10-12, ages about 16-18)
posted by angiep at 10:51 PM on April 8, 2009

I've lived in a country that uses the British system and I now live in the U.S.

In my old country, it was called grade school or grammar school. I live in the Midwest US, and we call it elementary school. The only times I've seen it called grammar school in the US is when it's a private school trying to sound impressive.
posted by reenum at 7:08 AM on April 9, 2009

In New Jersey, we went from elementary school, to Middle School, to High School. Actually, in my district, all the sixth graders went to school in a separate building downtown because of over-crowding between elementary and middle school, but we just called that "central six."
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:46 AM on April 9, 2009

Grew up in the '80s in the Bay Area 'burbs. Officially, our schools had "Elementary School" (K-5) and "Intermediate School" (6-8) in their names. I think we tended to call 6th-8th grade middle school, though.
posted by puritycontrol at 8:16 AM on April 9, 2009

Yeah, to me some of the terms are interchangeable and some aren't. Middle school and junior high are different: the former is 6-8 and the latter 7-8 or 7-9. Primary school is K-3 and grade school is 4-6; elementary or grammar is K-5 or K-6. High school is 9-12 or 10-12.
posted by dame at 8:38 AM on April 9, 2009

In Nova Scotia (at least the cities):

Elementary school - grades primary (0? before grade 1) through 6
Junior high - grade 7-9
High school - 10-12

We were aware of the terms 'middle school' and 'kindergarten' but never used them. Grammar school only really referred to the Halifax Grammar School and offhand, I don't know what grades that covered.
posted by hydrobatidae at 9:57 AM on April 9, 2009

I think it's possible that this is as much about when you went to school as where. That said, in Maine in the 1980s:

elementary school = kindergarten - 6th grade
middle school = 7th & 8th
high school = 9th-12th

i think of grammar school as british, and jr. high as an older term.
posted by dizziest at 12:26 PM on April 9, 2009

Southern Ohio:

K Kindergarten
1-8 Elementary/Primary/Grammar/Grade School
6-8 Middle School
8-9 Junior High School
10-12 Senior High School
9-12 High/Secondary School
posted by _Skull_ at 12:53 PM on April 9, 2009

Coastal Central California, 1970's-1980's:

Elementary School: K-5
Middle School: 6-8
High School: 9-12
posted by oozy rat in a sanitary zoo at 5:27 PM on April 10, 2009

My district in SE Michigan had 'junior high' schools until the late 80s. When sixth grade was moved out of the elementary schools, and ninth grade moved into the high schools, all the former Junior High schools became Middle schools.

That is, before about 1989:
K-6 - Elementary
7-9 - Jr High
10-12 - High

after 1988 or so:
K-5 - Elementary
6-8 - Middle
9-12 - High


In formal/academic literature, Middle/Jr High is sometimes grouped with High as "Secondary"; it's mostly in such contexts that I've seen Elementary referred to as "Primary". I've only ever seen Intermediate used when somebody then decided to re-separate out the Middle/Jr High schools...
posted by FlyingMonkey at 5:24 PM on April 11, 2009