Searching for Saints

April 6, 2009 10:51 AM

Recently someone in this thread described Mr. Rogers as "as close as America has ever come to producing a real-life saint". Can anyone suggest other Americans deserving of the title?
posted by It ain't over yet to Religion & Philosophy (59 answers total)

I don't know if he's deserving or not, but I would say that George Washington is revered and mythologized in a way that makes him seem saint-like.
posted by shesbookish at 10:53 AM on April 6, 2009

Martin Luther King, Jr?
posted by sbrollins at 10:55 AM on April 6, 2009 [3 favorites]

The problem is that you can only say that about Mr. Rogers because he's milquetoast.

Our national history is full of great men and women who deserve some Americanized form of canonization, but wouldn't pass muster with one faction or another. MLK, Jefferson, Lincoln... they are "saints" to some of us and devils to others. Mr. Rogers gets a pass because he's harmless, inoffensive, and "good" in a way that only the most limp-wristed among us can be.
posted by wfrgms at 10:57 AM on April 6, 2009

For what it's worth there are several American saints, with Blessed Damien of Molokai on deck.
posted by jquinby at 11:03 AM on April 6, 2009 [1 favorite]

Thomas Paine
Chester Nimitz
Richard Feynman
Daniel Ellsberg
posted by mrt at 11:05 AM on April 6, 2009 [1 favorite]

Well, I'm thinking Elizabeth Seton would count as a real-life American saint. As well as Katharine Drexel and Frances CabriniAnd Blessed Kateri comes pretty close.
posted by spockette at 11:06 AM on April 6, 2009

Dorothy Day!
posted by Roach at 11:07 AM on April 6, 2009 [2 favorites]

Thomas Paine was British.
posted by wfrgms at 11:07 AM on April 6, 2009

I think it's hard to come up with a universally-admired US saint, especially as America has a tendency to polarize, and its entertainment industry likes to build people up to sainthood in order to knock them down.

In light of Mister Rogers' MeFi-canonization, I will recommend Jim Henson to the committee.
posted by not_on_display at 11:08 AM on April 6, 2009 [2 favorites]

Lyndon Johnson.
posted by KokuRyu at 11:12 AM on April 6, 2009 [1 favorite]

Jane Addams
posted by jennyb at 11:13 AM on April 6, 2009 [1 favorite]

Stephen Colbert
posted by CTORourke at 11:14 AM on April 6, 2009 [1 favorite]

Harvey Milk - if martyrdom makes a saint
posted by hworth at 11:15 AM on April 6, 2009

Looking for perfect people is dangerous. He wasn't perfect, but Paul Wellstone was pretty close to a saint to me. I still miss his conscience and his optimism.
posted by marsha56 at 11:15 AM on April 6, 2009 [5 favorites]

Woody Guthrie
posted by klanawa at 11:15 AM on April 6, 2009 [2 favorites]

The problem is that you can only say that about Mr. Rogers because he's milquetoast.

Right, everyone knows you have to fuck something up to be important, amirite? Teaching children about self-worth and the importance of kindness is totally for pussies.

Norman Borlaug, father of the Green Revolution, seems like a good fit.
posted by electroboy at 11:16 AM on April 6, 2009 [7 favorites]

It's not just that MLK Jr. supported some controversial causes in a vigorous way. He also did stuff that was pretty much just bad behavior whoever you ask — a whole lotta philandering, for instance. I'd call him a great man for sure, but not a saint.
posted by nebulawindphone at 11:17 AM on April 6, 2009

I'd go with Bob Keeshan, myself. (Who was a Marine.)
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 11:19 AM on April 6, 2009

Echoing Dorothy Day...she's actually being considered for sainthood by the Catholic Church and she's namechecked in the current issue of Harper's; really a remarkable woman.
posted by kittyprecious at 11:23 AM on April 6, 2009 [1 favorite]

Peace Pilgrim
posted by dpcoffin at 11:25 AM on April 6, 2009

wfrgms, you either don't know the definition of "milquetoast" or you don't know much about Mr. Rogers.
posted by gyusan at 11:30 AM on April 6, 2009

Dorothy Day, for sure, and definitely Robert Ellsberg too. I'd actually recommend the book All Saints: Daily Reflections on Saints, Prophets, and Witnesses for Our Time by Dan Ellsberg. (Dan edited the Catholic Worker newspaper and, later, Dorothy's diaries; he's also Robert's son.) All Saints has plenty of entries on modern American people.
posted by Sfving at 11:31 AM on April 6, 2009 [1 favorite]

Pete Seeger
posted by klanawa at 11:32 AM on April 6, 2009 [3 favorites]

Adam Savage
posted by found missing at 11:42 AM on April 6, 2009

There are quite a few actual American saints--Elizabeth Anne Seton was the first US-born one, if memory serves.
posted by box at 11:46 AM on April 6, 2009

Or, uh, what jquinby and spockette said.

Also: Ella Jenkins, Maurice Sendak, Beverly Cleary, Sanford Berman.
posted by box at 11:49 AM on April 6, 2009

Mark Twain (Samuel Clemens)
James Thurber

I'd say Kurt Vonnegut, but he'd probably laugh.
posted by not_on_display at 11:52 AM on April 6, 2009 [1 favorite]

Mr Rogers was not fucking milquetoast; YOU try testifying calmly and effectively to congress, and getting them to turn around on a subject as large as public arts & education funding.

That's only one of the numerous incredible things this soft-spoken man accomplished.

Learn a little bit about the actual guy and you will voluntarily eat your words, wfrgms. Either that, or you are dead inside.
posted by Aquaman at 11:54 AM on April 6, 2009 [7 favorites]

The mere THOUGHT of Jim Henson makes me misty in a rather religious way.

Besides him or others who affect children, which is sort of cheating on the being-a-saint count, I would nominate... a lot of Americans, actually... it's personal... because nationalism is fucking dumb.

Toni Morrison and Timothy Leary
Florence Nightingale and Martin Luther King, Jr.
Robert Mapplethorpe and Hollis Frampton
Abraham Lincoln, for making Yosemite, if nothing else.
Bob Dylan and Robert Frost
John Steinbeck and Betty Friedan
John Cage and Judith Butler
Stanley Kubrick and Matt Groening

I could go on but it begins to look like a list, and these people aren't entries on a list.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 11:56 AM on April 6, 2009 [1 favorite]

oh, shit, I forgot Ben Franklin. Sorry, Ben!
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 11:57 AM on April 6, 2009 [2 favorites]

Response by poster: Thanks for the input, AV (and others). Your diverse list makes me wonder what definition of 'sainthood' is informing your choices. Obviously there may be more or less strict definitions of the term, but I wonder what yours might be.
posted by It ain't over yet at 12:03 PM on April 6, 2009

Jimmy Carter?

Oprah?
posted by amtho at 12:11 PM on April 6, 2009

Rosa Parks, the Freedom Riders, and many of the civil rights heroes -- because they had to remain calm and peaceful and righteous in the face of such ugliness and horror.
posted by Asparagirl at 12:16 PM on April 6, 2009

Hemingway and Fitzgerald weren't perfect, but they helped give America its voice. (And I came in here to vote for D. Day, but I guess other beat me to it.)

How about Ben Franklin for what he gave to the naitonal character?
posted by wenestvedt at 12:20 PM on April 6, 2009

There may be personal demons that I'm unaware of, but I've always been impressed at the work Benjamin Rush did for this country and mankind. He was a physician who treated many people and taught medical students and wrote textbooks. Given his time period, some of this medical theories have been disproven, but I do not think that is anything for which to fault him.

He signed the Declaration of Independence and helped craft the Constitution. He was one of the Sons of Liberty who wrote patriotic materials and was an ally of Thomas Paine. He fought in the Revolutionary War and acted as the head surgeon of the American military.

He was a vocal and rhetorically-beautiful abolitionist who co-founded the first abolition society in the country with James Pemberton. He also wrote and advocated against capital punishment, for prisoner rights, and for animal rights.

He donated money to worthy causes and founded one of the oldest colleges in this country, Dickinson College.

And somewhere in between, he had time to write enough and develop theories sufficient to be called by some the Father of American Psychiatry.

There's a man who did a lot for mankind.
posted by dios at 12:24 PM on April 6, 2009 [3 favorites]

Response by poster: I do think it's worth dwelling on the difference between "Great Americans" and "American Saints".... There are many great Americans listed here, to be sure, and their contributions are clearly significant. But how many can we really define (however loosely) as "saintly"?
posted by It ain't over yet at 12:32 PM on April 6, 2009

I should also note that, at least what I've been told, an extremely large amount of the clinical medical work that Dr. Rush did was Mother Theresa-like: he treated, without pay, the poor who could not afford care and were suffering from the worst epidemic conditions like yellow fever.
posted by dios at 12:33 PM on April 6, 2009

Margaret Sanger wasn't perfect, but what an ass-kicking life she led. I'll take an elastic interpretation of "saint" and just call it "a tremendous force for good."
posted by Skot at 12:35 PM on April 6, 2009

But how many can we really define (however loosely) as "saintly"?

That's the point. You asked the question, so what do you mean as "saintly"?

Are you asking about those who can be credited with two miracles?

To me, the term saint would encompass someone who spent an amazing diverse life to helping others and his country and improved the life of a massive amount of people like Dr. Rush did.

I lack the ability to explain why Mother Thresea would be more of a saint than Benjamin Rush.
posted by dios at 12:35 PM on April 6, 2009

Response by poster: I'm obviously reluctant to attempt a definition of "saintly." It does seem to me, though, that the term has its basis in quality of character rather than scope of worldly accomplishment. Moral bravery, I would think, would be a prerequisite. Of course moral bravery as often as not leads to worldly accomplishment. Then again "selflessness" also comes to mind as a saintly quality, and I think it's fair to assume that a certain degree of ego is usually required to accomplish anything significant in this life.
posted by It ain't over yet at 12:43 PM on April 6, 2009

I define saintly as exhibiting an excess of supererogatory behavior. That's why I consider Dr. Rush saintly; his entire life was supererogatory.
posted by dios at 12:50 PM on April 6, 2009

I think a "saint" is someone who does good works which aid and uplift a great many, saving people from despair in some way. I think certain remarkably inspirational artists or thinkers do this beyond parallel. Everyone I named gave genius of themselves in a way which has made the world and tha nation a truer and a more humane place, which is the kind of thing I feel spiritual and patriotic about.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 12:52 PM on April 6, 2009

While there is a lower class, I am in it. While there is a criminal element, I am of it. While there is a soul in prison, I am not free. - Eugene V. Debs
posted by Joe Beese at 12:56 PM on April 6, 2009 [4 favorites]

Response by poster: Dios-
I had to look up supererogatory. I gather it means something like 'above and beyond the call of duty.' Great word. But in my mind it raises a further question. If the 'duty' we're talking about is a moral one to our fellow humans, someone who is supererogatory in this respect must be going above and beyond what you could call 'the moral minimum'. Which only makes me wonder what that moral minimum might be. And how does one define what is above and beyond it?

The conversation at this point may end up getting too technical. Then again it may also help clarify how one identifies truly saintly characters. Part of the reason I resist AV's description of saintly is because nothing there assures us that the uplifting work done by the individuals nominated was primarily undertaken on behalf of those individuals, as opposed to some more obscure inner, perhaps artistic, compulsion.

Great Debs quote, tho.
posted by It ain't over yet at 1:04 PM on April 6, 2009

Artistic compulsion doesn't guarantee participation in culture. Mime alone in the woods is not a saint. Thoreau, perhaps.

Philanthropic or humanistic intent aside from that which is made manifest by simple participation and contribution to culture is baloney. Or maybe that's one and the same as the religious property of saintliness that atheists can't grasp.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 1:15 PM on April 6, 2009

Because no one else said, Cesar Chavez.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 1:17 PM on April 6, 2009 [2 favorites]

If the 'duty' we're talking about is a moral one to our fellow humans, someone who is supererogatory in this respect must be going above and beyond what you could call 'the moral minimum'. Which only makes me wonder what that moral minimum might be. And how does one define what is above and beyond it?

Supererogatory is a term from Ethics. We all are willing and capable of engaging in various degrees of supererogatory behavior. If I see a water hose and a person on fire, I will turn on the hose. But saintly people like Mother Theresa live their lives this way. None of us at moral fault for not living Mother Theresa's life. And if you asked her if she was engaged in supererogatory behavior, she would deny that it was beyond the call of duty. She would say that it it exactly what duty requires of all mankind. But as a society, we do not condemn those who do not live her life; we do not impose a duty of what she does on everyone.
posted by dios at 1:20 PM on April 6, 2009

an extremely large amount of the clinical medical work that Dr. Rush did was Mother Theresa-like

I'm sorry to muddy the waters like this, but it should be noted that Mother Teresa essentially ran houses of suffering and denied basic healthcare such as painkillers to those who were dying under her watch. While I don't believe she was a sadist, per se, she believed suffering was good for the soul and is thus either a bad example of "saintly," or greatly taints the notion of whether a "saint" is actually even close to synonymous with "good person."
posted by explosion at 1:21 PM on April 6, 2009 [5 favorites]

Response by poster: AV: Philanthropic or humanistic intent aside from that which is made manifest by simple participation and contribution to culture is baloney. Or maybe that's one and the same as the religious property of saintliness that atheists can't grasp.

Sorry, AV, I'm not following. Are you saying that humanistic intent is by definition bogus?

Dios: as a society, we do not condemn those who do not live her life; we do not impose a duty of what she does on everyone.

ie, Saintliness is a relative term defined in reference to social prescribed standards of moral conduct? This seems safe to say, but it's not very exciting...

Explosion: she ... is thus either a bad example of "saintly," or greatly taints the notion of whether a "saint" is actually even close to synonymous with "good person."

Regardless of the M. Theresa/Hitchens controversy, I think this is an excellent distinction.
posted by It ain't over yet at 1:37 PM on April 6, 2009

I'll put in another vote for Jimmy Carter. If I were 50 years older, Roslyn and I would have to fight it out.
posted by notjustfoxybrown at 2:00 PM on April 6, 2009 [2 favorites]

At a dollar or two per dose of vaccine, Bill Gates has perhaps saved millions of lives around the world through his Global Alliance for Vaccines and Immunization and his Children's Vaccine Program.
posted by JackFlash at 2:04 PM on April 6, 2009

I was saying something more to the effect that humanistic intent and cultural engagement are essentially indistinguishable, I think?
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 4:49 PM on April 6, 2009

Bill Gates
posted by karizma at 4:57 PM on April 6, 2009

Response by poster: I was saying something more to the effect that humanistic intent and cultural engagement are essentially indistinguishable, I think?

An optimistic observation, I think.
posted by It ain't over yet at 9:00 PM on April 6, 2009

For moral courage/ outrage, i'm gonna nominate Frank Zappa.
posted by Philby at 11:00 PM on April 6, 2009

supererogatory: Bill Gates. Also Clinton after he got out of office. Both have done amazing things for those in the 3rd world. GWB was responsible for PEPFAR, doing more for AIDS in Africa than any president before himself, but of course he had a lot else he was responsible for as well that's not so exemplary.
posted by allkindsoftime at 11:32 PM on April 6, 2009

Surprised no one mentioned Dr. Tom Dooley (no relation to the condemned man in the song, BTW).

The link isn't superb, but while looking for a better one, I discovered that Tom was a flaming whoopsy*. My longtime curiosity about why the Catholic church never even beatified him is satisfied.

*Not meant mean-spirited; I just think it's a hilarious phrase. How can anything that funny-sounding be a sin?
posted by IAmBroom at 7:19 AM on April 7, 2009

I screwed up my post above: All Saints was written by Robert Ellsberg, not Daniel; Robert is Daniel's son. Robert was involved with the Catholic Worker movement, not Dan. cite. Whoops.
posted by Sfving at 8:08 AM on October 30, 2009

FWIW, the Catholic definition of a saint includes things like "a life of heroic virtue", with one or more things worthy of emulation by the faithful. Thus, there countless saints un-named and a relative few who make the 'hall of fame' (formal canonization).
posted by jquinby at 5:56 PM on November 11, 2009