I can haz developer???

February 11, 2009 9:33 AM

Does this person exist, relatively cheaply: drupal, PHP, Flash, CSS developer? All rolled into one.

I am tired of paying time and materials to outsource new dev/maintenance of our ecomm website. We are a start up and the costs of continued development now look to be about the same as the cost of hiring an in house resource, depending on whether my estimate of salary for this kind of person is accurate or that a single individual that can do all of this exits.

So here is what I would need this single person to be able to do:

1) implement new drupal templates for design of new pages on site
2) write new functionality that uses drupal/php to access database and manage data, users, products, etc
3) our site is an integration of Flash and CSS using a drupal engine - I want someone who can develop/optimize/fix the functionality that uses communication between the Flash customer facing stuff and the back end for transaction management, customer activity, non-transactional features, etc
4) handle day to day changes to pages on site based on promotions or testing of 'stickiness' to see how customers respond..so, like swapping out banners, areas of content, moving content around, etc
5) develop better interfaces for product and content management into drupal and the MySQL database - we use a stupid excel file now and drupal falls apart easily...I'd like to be able to develop some kind of web-based interface that uses php or something to directly into the product database and do our inventory and product management.

Is this completely unrealistic? For example, is this a team of three people rather than one person? If it is one person is this someone who should be earning 150K/annum due to the skill set or is it a lower level salary? Can anyone help me understand what's possible here better?

posted by spicynuts to computers & internet (26 comments total)

(Developer here, prepare GrainOfSalt.php)

If you are an Ecomm website, the website is the equivalent of your entire brick and mortar store, plus signage, storage, employee management, sweeping the warehouse, foot traffic, the whole shebang.

The brain trust portion of the site is important, yes. But if you were a real store, physical considerations would eat up a huge chunk of net. Especially if you are pushing the envelope on some fronts and doing a lot of day-to-day stuff.
posted by unixrat at 9:42 AM on February 11

There are certainly developers who CAN do all that, but a jack-of-all-trades is a master of none, and other cliches.

So you can get a competent/adequate person for that, yes, but they won't be the best Flash designer, or Flash scripter, or HTML/CSS developer, or the best CSS/standards person, and so on.

But that is the obvious quality argument, and many will probably jump in here on both sides of that. So I'll take another tack.

When you are dealing with commerce, and with special issues of credit card security and confidentiality, there are both future costs and ongoing risks you're talking about absorbing that you may not realize you're talking about absorbing.

When calculating your costs comparing internal vs outsourced, do not forget the cost of internal documentation that will be required and the future cost of replacement for when you need to replace this one, key, extremely delicate and irreplaceable person that you are considering. Outsourced ongoing development and support is usually more expensive, but also has a big advantage in terms of fixed and predictable costs without any worry about changing/losing people, since it's your development firm's problem to keep competent staff around. (Whether they do or not is part of whether you continue to retain them.)

It's a type of insurance for you, and that's not even counting literal liability issues. Who is responsible for a software flaw, bug, or backdoor? Think through both possible ways of doing this and decide if you want the additional control with additional risk and exposure for possibly lower cost, or the reduced control for higher stability and reduced liability. This might also inform the actual contract you have with an employee and/or development firm.

(Context: I get paid to find/screen/hire web people for both in-house jobs and development firms jobs for a living. I don't have a bias toward either type of person/choice here.)
posted by rokusan at 9:43 AM on February 11

Yes, this is completely unrealistic. If you want an expert in what is basically 3 (or four, since drupal people are usually trained specifically in drupal) distinct web dev fields, you are not going to find that cheap.
posted by shownomercy at 9:43 AM on February 11

It's sort of amazing how low the horizon was set here.

For $150k a year, I would learn Flash.


It was once *reasonably* common for a web programmer to be an expert in:

Perl/PHP
SQL
HTML (and later CSS)
Apache / Server Communication.


Here's the problem. Fewer places pay 150k-200k for this anymore, so everyone who *could* do what you are asking for either has a way less stressful (albeit lower paying) job where they can practice their craft, are still hiding out in academia, or are already getting paid 150k a year to do this since the pool of guys who can gets smaller every year in the US. (i assume this is a US post).
posted by judge.mentok.the.mindtaker at 9:49 AM on February 11 [1 favorite has favorites]

What I am getting at is that, each of the things you listed are a really specific Industry tool, with tons of arbitrary information associated with it. The amount of time it takes to learn Flash almost precludes you learning other stuff, and what's worse, everything you learn in flash doesn't apply to drupal, or php, or AJAX.


When i am talking about "back in the day" above, there was way more overlap between the technologies due to the fact that they are all based on open implementations. They're not a custom, commercial product. Hell, go back far enough and CGI is called CGI because it was still actually written in C.

So basically, you need to hire a few people, or run a site using different technology. There's a reason so many people in small shops and startups still run straight LAMP stacks.
posted by judge.mentok.the.mindtaker at 9:58 AM on February 11

( yes i know CGI really stands for common gateway interface ;))
posted by judge.mentok.the.mindtaker at 9:58 AM on February 11

To answer the question above the fold as posted, yes, this person exists. They have terrible self-esteem if they can do all of that, and will do so cheaply.

Below the fold, what you're talking about is essentially running your whole business, via automated processes. Everything else consists of data entry, accountants, or people who demand "I want that icon in cornflower blue!"

All of that stuff, one guy? Aside from the idea of finding just one person who can and would do all of that, cramming all of your business logic into a single person is essentially engineering for a single point of failure. This is everything in your business from the point at which someone finds your website all the way to the part where a paper slip is printed for the people in the warehouse.

You need several people, with overlapping skill sets.
posted by adipocere at 10:13 AM on February 11

more info..i don't need this person to be an expert at all things as I still have an agency for big projects and underlying infrastructure development...I just need someone for day to day one off of week long tasks/projects that will use what the agency does.
posted by spicynuts at 10:13 AM on February 11

In a way, yes, this is a job for three people, because you're not just looking for a PHP/Drupal/CS3 developer. You're also looking for a content/data-entry manager, a bizdev person, and an interface designer.
posted by rhizome at 10:19 AM on February 11

Ok I'm thinking based on the responses I need to get more detailed here. The problem I'm trying to alleviate is the time it takes me to write a spec for one off work, get an estimate back from our agency, explain to them why they are making this way more complicated than it is so I can chop 5 grand off their estimate, then Project Managing their developers because they have no PM, then watching helplessly as their over runs kill my budget because they are time and materials and neglected to get a change order from me, etc etc.

The way I see it, if I have someone who is skilled enough in all of the things above, and I am paying them say 4000/month plus benefits, that person can sit next to me and she and I can say 'ok today we need to take a crack at fixing our shitty inventory management spreadsheet. let's play around in the sandbox environment for a while and see if we can get something working' and then because that person is staff, she and I can spend 12 or 15 hours straight messing with this thing and not worrying about cost over-runs, wasted time on specs (yes, i am RELIGIOUS about specs with agencies or big companies, but we are 5 people...daily tasks don't need specs), etc then that's 15 hours at 250/hr I don't have to spend to get shit results.

Meanwhile, I work with our new, more talented agency to do the big 2 month overhaul projects.

So I guess the question I'm asking is whether I can realistically expect to find this kind of person for 4k/month who will be hungry enough to work start up hours with the expectation that some day they might be CIO or at least VP or IT. Or whether I should just suck up the frustrations of time/materials agency of record stuff because the trade off isn't worth it.
posted by spicynuts at 10:22 AM on February 11

You're also looking for a content/data-entry manager, a bizdev person, and an interface designer.

That would be me and an existing employee.
posted by spicynuts at 10:23 AM on February 11

You'll have significant more luck splitting the job into two parts, hiring two specialists in those parts, and paying them a 60-75k salary.

How you split it is really up to the skills the people have, and how they work together. A simple split is PHP+MySQL (Programmer) and Flash+HTML+CSS (Web Developer), preferably both who know Drupal. The programmer would be responsible for numbers 2, a bit of 3, 5, the web developer 1, 3, 4, with a bit of overlap here and there.

Basically, the person you're looking for is a web miracle worker. Jack of All Trades are rare and highly valued. Your salary offer of 150k may be nice, but these people are often comfortable where they are, so it's simply not enticing enough of an offer. It's also just too much work for one person. If it's as broken as you say it is, and you want a new PHP system put in place, that's one full job right there, excluding the whole Flash aspect.

On Preview: Your comment has helped to clarify things. Yes, this person exists, but they are being scared away by the design agency. People who work for startups have the passion and desire to do things themselves, and they hate to be stifled or ignored by design agencies who often have their heads up their asses. I speak of personal experience here as a web designer. You'll still have more luck splitting the position into two parts, but you'll need to dig yourself out of the agency's claws.

A startup is like being in the old West in many ways - true hard work, the pioneering spirit. A true designer/programmer cowboy is very competent at what they do, but they like to ride their own horse, not sit on the one that's tethered up to the post.
posted by Meagan at 10:31 AM on February 11 [1 favorite has favorites]

That's great feedback, Meagan. If I can find a person that's reliable and willing to do what the agency does then I would gladly ditch the agency.
posted by spicynuts at 11:01 AM on February 11

Most developers I know who are competent at PHP, understand the architecture of Drupal and who also know HTML/CSS enough to implement a design from a mockup would laugh in your face if you asked them to build something in Flash.

Designers, however...especially those who went through design school and learned how to focus on presentation...are the types who see Flash as a presentation-level tool. It's great for portfolios, animations, movies and other types of front-end presentations that are intended to be run once an not powered dynamically from a database through a template. Most of these designers also are competent at HTML/CSS but when it comes to understanding PHP logic or the basic architecture of a scripting language will reply "What's Drupal?" when asked.

You will occasionally run across a superstar who knows both design and programming. Someone who perhaps majored in Computer Science and then did a Graphic Design minor in college. This type of person is rare because it requires they be good at using both sides of their brain: the artistic right side of the brain and the analytical left side of the brain. This is the type of person who knows how to design a mockup in Photoshop so it's aesthetically pleasing, and then cut it up and output the GIFs and JPGs needed for the HTML/CSS, and then write the CSS/HTML and then implement it into a template that has logic driven from a scripting language like PHP. This person also understands the frame-driven approach of Flash, has perhaps taken an animation course in school, understands that Flash is first and foremost a presentation tool and not a transaction-based tool.

Finding someone who is equally competent at everything you list is going to be difficult. Those who do fit your description are often already employed in the job of their choice at the company of their choice and are well-paid.
posted by camworld at 11:03 AM on February 11 [1 favorite has favorites]

I do PHP, Flash and CSS on a regular basis for my current start-up, but I would never work for just 4k a month, especially for long hours and in freakin' Brooklyn where that much money won't go far. I would, however, consider it if it were a part-time gig and I could work from home most of the week. But never for those hours and in that location.
posted by Alison at 11:04 AM on February 11

The person you've described is basically me (well, minus much experience of Drupal). But to agree with everyone else, there are plently of people who dabble in PHP, CSS and Flash, but very few who have a solid competency in all of them. Those of us who can do all of them tend to have been in the business longer, are (I would guess) less likely to get involved with startups, and probably find it really hard to keep up-to-date with the technologies whilst trying to do our jobs at the same time.

I would personally not have grouped Flash with HTML/CSS, unless the Flash work is very design-centered and coding-light.
posted by le morte de bea arthur at 11:12 AM on February 11

I don't think you're going to find anybody with that skillset for 4k/month and promises of "might be CIO someday," especially in the NY metropolitan area. Though there's no harm in posting your job offer on Craigslist, with a plainly stated salary and seeing what kind of hits you get.

Be clear with the skillset you require; there's a difference in requiring someone who can handle Flash backend (for a programming, Actionscript will quickly make sense) and someone who can develop a Flash application from the ground up (graphical parts are harder to just pick up).

As someone who recently worked for a startup, for peanuts and promises, I can tell you I'm not likely to do it again for such a salary, unless I received stock in the company upfront and a position such as CIO immediately. I did much of the work you're looking for (minus Drupal) for much less than you're offering, but I also got to work from home at will, and I was hourly (capped at 40 hrs) so there were no long hours. Your best luck might be with students or someone just out of college (though as a CS major graduating this year, I can tell you starting offers for Bachelors in CS have ranged 60k - 130k in the NYC area). Basically, you'll probably need to increase your compensation or settle for less experience/qualification.
posted by miscbuff at 11:23 AM on February 11

Agreed with the feedback others are giving. One problem is that you are grouping a number of different skillsets together: you want a programmer and a designer, and there are very few people who are good enough at both to be worth your while.

It sounds like what you really need/want is someone you can sit down with and try stuff, rather than relying on an external hourly-billed shop, when you're trying to determine what the best solution to a given problem might be. If that is the case, expert knowledge may not be necessary: someone who is conversant in PHP, is armed with a copy of a good Drupal development book, and knows flash programming (not just "can make moving pictures") can probably help you.

If what you're really looking for, though, is a project manager/designer/architect/developer with expertise in specific frameworks, it's going to be rough. As others have mentioned, you're probably going to have a lot better luck hiring someone who does Drupal development and has flash coding experience, then hiring a CSS/design person to work with them. Imagine a worker's skills as multipliers: if someone is an expert in four skills, it can be more expensive to hire them than it is to hire two people who are experts in two complimentary areas.
posted by verb at 11:49 AM on February 11

Have you considered outsourcing through sites like Get a Freelancer? There is also Odesk, as well as others.

Now, I am not going to suggest you go looking for a type of person that can fit your bill entirely here, because, along with the others (and as a web designer myself), I think it's completely unreasonable. However, outsourcing can often be cheaper for a number of reasons--little to no new equipment/etc. costs to both parties, flexible hours for all (meaning you can get work done in another country, during out-of-office hours), not paying benefits, and more besides.

Look for competent developers and designers for each thing you're interested in having done. Eventually, you will find some that you go back to on a frequent basis. Most of these sites have a rating and review system and escrow payment plans, so there are some safeties against bad things happening.

My fiance is a freelance web developer, and he has outsourced minor jobs (e.g., content insertion) to developing nations. He tends to stick to freelancers from developed nations for the more complex tasks, as we have found sometimes language barriers and education differences make for lower quality work.

Good luck.
posted by metalheart at 12:15 PM on February 11

I think I need to do some job hunting if what everything said here is true, or is New York really that much more expensive than Nebraska? I don't even make a quarter of that and would say besides the Flash I do exactly what you're describing. However, for that kind of money I'd be more than willing to learn. Granted I may not be an 'expert' in design, but that's a subjective term. On an expertise scale of 1-5, 5 being an expert, a person who is at least a 4 with Drupal, PHP, Flash, and CSS does exist. But based on your description:

(our site is an integration of Flash and CSS using a drupal engine - I want someone who can develop/optimize/fix the functionality that uses communication between the Flash customer facing stuff and the back end for transaction management, customer activity, non-transactional features, etc)

it doesn't sound like you're looking for a Flash expert. Based on that, what you're looking for is someone familiar with Flash who can learn quickly as he goes, and those kind of people definitely exist. PHP, Drupal and CSS are often times used and learned concurrently while someone who programs in Flash is probably not going to know any PHP or Drupal, but may be excellent with CSS. Because of this, I'll second the idea of splitting this into two positions, but why don't you start posting the job offer anyways and see what kind of people you hear from? If I found this exact job in NE at 4k per month I'd be sending you my resume instead of posting this comment.
posted by trueluk at 12:23 PM on February 11 [1 favorite has favorites]

or is New York really that much more expensive than Nebraska?

Yes. It is.
posted by spicynuts at 12:36 PM on February 11

6 figures is middle class in Manhattan.
posted by grumblebee at 1:29 PM on February 11

I'm a Flash developer. I know enough backend stuff and CSS/JS to get by in a pinch, but my expertise is Flash and Actionscript. I've worked for several companies full of really smart developers, and at each one, I was the only one (aside from other Flash developers) who really knew how to wrestle with Flash. Most of the other people there -- PHP developers, AJAX people, etc. -- could have learned Flash, but they had no interest in it.

I've also been the only Flash developer in a company full of Flash designers/animators. Most of them had rudimentary coding skills, but if you threw them in the deep end, they'd drown.

With Flash, the bottom lines is usually this: Actionscript has matured from a toy language to something complex and Java-like. It's now too complicated for designers; on the other hand, its reputation as a toy makes it unappealing to traditional comp-sci types and hackers.

That's great for me, because it keeps me in demand, but it's also really frustrating because my employers are always asking me to recommend other Flash developers, and when I do, they say, "Don't you know anyone who can program like you but who is also a really good designer/can do ajax/can do php?"

No, I don't. I'm sure a few exists, but the Flash+ people I meet are either shoddy Flash developers or good Flash developers with shoddy secondary skills.
posted by grumblebee at 1:40 PM on February 11

You've heard "Good. Fast. Cheap. Pick 2", right?

I think you've gotten good answers here but I'll chime in too. With the proviso that I'm neither a designer nor a Flash animator, I have this skill set though I avoid Flash, if possible, in favor of AJAX. I'm also in a position to hire and manage developers and have never seen professional experience with this skill set available at $4000/mo+benefits. It would be exceedingly rare to find a reliable developer with this skill set at that price because that person is already employed in a better job.

explain to them why they are making this way more complicated than it is so I can chop 5 grand off their estimate...Project Managing their developers...then watching helplessly as their over runs kill my budget

It sounds a bit like you are going into this saying "this is simple! X, Y, and Z are bloat and only increase the price" without the low-level knowledge of how easy or hard things are to implement. Have you considered accepting a bid based on the specification, and staying out of the way until you get the deliverables? At that point, you compare the delivered "application" to the specification and require fixes where the application doesn't meet the specification under the existing contract. Remedies for missed deadlines and missing functionality should be in the contract. Change orders should be in writing and approved by you or they are not billable. By acting as "PM" you are likely responsible for the scope-creep and blown budgets.

we need to take a crack at fixing our shitty inventory management spreadsheet

Wait, I thought you were looking for a PHP/Drupal/CSS/Flash developer. You want good SQL knowledge too? All PHP developers do CRUD but database design is a skill all its own and not synonymous with PHP/Drupal/Flash. A poorly designed database will lead to wasted time and will probably eventually need to be fixed. And please don't ask me to do anything with Excel except migrate it to a database.

because that person is staff, she and I can spend 12 or 15 hours straight messing with this thing

First, you mean 15 hours over two day, right?. For $4k per month, any developer that works uncompensated overtime is a fool. Also, in 15 hours you will not complete a migration of mission-critical data from Excel to a well designed database. Designing databases is like finish carpentry: measure twice, cut once.

messing with this thing and not worrying about cost over-runs, wasted time on specs

It's kind of one or the other. Plan the project and write up at least a rough spec or be prepared for wasted times and/or cost over-runs.
posted by McGuillicuddy at 4:42 PM on February 11

Someone who does all of that, and there are a few, is rare and is going to command more like 4k a week, not 4k a month.

And people pay it, because this is one of those areas where you really do get what you pay for.
posted by Edubya at 8:50 PM on February 11

The problem I'm trying to alleviate is the time it takes me to write a spec for one off work, get an estimate back from our agency, explain to them why they are making this way more complicated than it is so I can chop 5 grand off their estimate, then Project Managing their developers because they have no PM, then watching helplessly as their over runs kill my budget because they are time and materials and neglected to get a change order from me, etc etc.

Okay, forget the person. You are working with a bad, disorganized firm. How can they not have any project managers? That's crazy.

You either need a different relationship with the firm (a fixed price contract where they spend the hours) or a different firm, here.
posted by rokusan at 11:25 PM on February 11