"late bloomer" is a bit of an understatement
December 28, 2008 7:14 PM Subscribe
Help my reconcile my atypical personality and worldview with an increasing desire to have a meaningful relationship.
Okay, here' goes...24 year old straight male here, with no relationship experience whatsoever except a few female friends. Never experienced anything more intimate than a hug, never had a woman romantically interested in me (that I know of).
I was never too worked up by this as I've had other priorities in recent years, but this year I've found myself wondering and daydreaming more and more.
I think part of it is feeling old (I know you'll disagree, but given the rich social lives most of my peers have compared to me, I haven't accomplished much for my age),
and part of it is, quite frankly, missing hanging out with women, which I've barely done in the 3 years since graduating. But there's a catch - there are several things about me that give me anxiety about entering new relationships with women. For example (and pardon my total ignorance and inadvertent reliance upon stereotypes on some of these matters):
1) I'm not interested in marriage or having kids - yes, a bit premature, but my thinking is, if most women around my age feel differently, is it dishonest in some way to be in a relationship for several months only to have it inevitably dissolved because of this irreconcilable issue? I know there are a few women who feel the same way, but should I even be concerned about this a priori?
2) I'm not particularly romantic in the TV/movies sense - yes, I know that TV and movie romances aren't realistic, but even still, I'm not into Valentine's Day, diamonds, weekend getaways at beds and breakfasts, or staring into each other's eyes. I'm not comfortable with feelings/emotions, not very good at comforting/consoling, and put very little weight in the word "love". Not to say I'm incapable of surprising someone with a gift or small-but-thoughtful things, I just hate anything that has a whiff of being contrived or materialistic.
3) I'm not especially sensitive where I'm supposed to be - I have on several occasions found female friends offended by things I have said or done, which apparently weren't as reasonable and logical as I thought. I'm not stereotyping women as emotional and illogical, but there clearly is a disconnect between me and them. If a woman asked me how she looked in some outfit, is it wrong to give an honest opinion, backed up by some sort of theory or explanation, instead of offering only platitudes? (never happened to me - yet - but the kind of thing I'm talking about)
4) I'm a terrible conversationalist - especially with women. I'm particularly bad at sharing stories/anecdotes, partially because I have very few of my own (having spent much of the last 10 years pretty alone), partially because I'm not very interested in such casual chatting (which is quite possibly a coping mechanism to being so woefully unable to contribute to such social interaction).
5) I'm not very open - it could take months before I feel comfortable with someone, to the point where I'd even consider confiding anything nontrivial in them. Could this not look like lack of interest from a woman's perspective?
6) I'm somewhat unstable - especially my moods from day to day, which I'm worried about imposing upon someone. My life in general doesn't have a whole lot of rhyme or reason to it, either. Not that I'm a lazy slacker - I have a demanding, well-paying job, but my ambitions lie elsewhere, and I'm not going to give up on them, which means I'm hesitant to make any serious financial or geographic commitments right now, which I feel could come off the wrong way to an ambitious 20-something woman.
7) I don't like social obligations - I don't want to be in an interdependent relationship, and I don't want it to be financially one-sided. I like my space, and I honestly can't picture myself ever wanting to spend time with a single person more than a few nights a week. Maybe that's not unusual, but I feel like maybe it is.
8) I admit, I'm also shallow - I greatly respect and admire intellect, creativity, ambition, and other fine qualities. But I'm also drawn to purely physical beauty. This isn't as bad as it seems, is it?
So I guess the bottom line question is: where do I go from here? Yes, I'm going to try the perennial advice of taking some sort of class, but should any of the above concern me, or do I throw caution to the wind, not worry about someone else so much, brace myself for disappointment, and try, try again?
Okay, here' goes...24 year old straight male here, with no relationship experience whatsoever except a few female friends. Never experienced anything more intimate than a hug, never had a woman romantically interested in me (that I know of).
I was never too worked up by this as I've had other priorities in recent years, but this year I've found myself wondering and daydreaming more and more.
I think part of it is feeling old (I know you'll disagree, but given the rich social lives most of my peers have compared to me, I haven't accomplished much for my age),
and part of it is, quite frankly, missing hanging out with women, which I've barely done in the 3 years since graduating. But there's a catch - there are several things about me that give me anxiety about entering new relationships with women. For example (and pardon my total ignorance and inadvertent reliance upon stereotypes on some of these matters):
1) I'm not interested in marriage or having kids - yes, a bit premature, but my thinking is, if most women around my age feel differently, is it dishonest in some way to be in a relationship for several months only to have it inevitably dissolved because of this irreconcilable issue? I know there are a few women who feel the same way, but should I even be concerned about this a priori?
2) I'm not particularly romantic in the TV/movies sense - yes, I know that TV and movie romances aren't realistic, but even still, I'm not into Valentine's Day, diamonds, weekend getaways at beds and breakfasts, or staring into each other's eyes. I'm not comfortable with feelings/emotions, not very good at comforting/consoling, and put very little weight in the word "love". Not to say I'm incapable of surprising someone with a gift or small-but-thoughtful things, I just hate anything that has a whiff of being contrived or materialistic.
3) I'm not especially sensitive where I'm supposed to be - I have on several occasions found female friends offended by things I have said or done, which apparently weren't as reasonable and logical as I thought. I'm not stereotyping women as emotional and illogical, but there clearly is a disconnect between me and them. If a woman asked me how she looked in some outfit, is it wrong to give an honest opinion, backed up by some sort of theory or explanation, instead of offering only platitudes? (never happened to me - yet - but the kind of thing I'm talking about)
4) I'm a terrible conversationalist - especially with women. I'm particularly bad at sharing stories/anecdotes, partially because I have very few of my own (having spent much of the last 10 years pretty alone), partially because I'm not very interested in such casual chatting (which is quite possibly a coping mechanism to being so woefully unable to contribute to such social interaction).
5) I'm not very open - it could take months before I feel comfortable with someone, to the point where I'd even consider confiding anything nontrivial in them. Could this not look like lack of interest from a woman's perspective?
6) I'm somewhat unstable - especially my moods from day to day, which I'm worried about imposing upon someone. My life in general doesn't have a whole lot of rhyme or reason to it, either. Not that I'm a lazy slacker - I have a demanding, well-paying job, but my ambitions lie elsewhere, and I'm not going to give up on them, which means I'm hesitant to make any serious financial or geographic commitments right now, which I feel could come off the wrong way to an ambitious 20-something woman.
7) I don't like social obligations - I don't want to be in an interdependent relationship, and I don't want it to be financially one-sided. I like my space, and I honestly can't picture myself ever wanting to spend time with a single person more than a few nights a week. Maybe that's not unusual, but I feel like maybe it is.
8) I admit, I'm also shallow - I greatly respect and admire intellect, creativity, ambition, and other fine qualities. But I'm also drawn to purely physical beauty. This isn't as bad as it seems, is it?
So I guess the bottom line question is: where do I go from here? Yes, I'm going to try the perennial advice of taking some sort of class, but should any of the above concern me, or do I throw caution to the wind, not worry about someone else so much, brace myself for disappointment, and try, try again?
That's quite a laundry list you have there. I think you are really over thinking this. I can understand being ambivalent about all of the perceived expectations of being in a relationship, but you're really putting the cart before the horse here. Why don't you go out and meet some people? Start with just getting to know someone and then decide from there what you want. You might find that you're not as atypical as you might think.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 7:31 PM on December 28, 2008
posted by The Light Fantastic at 7:31 PM on December 28, 2008
Light Fantastic has it right, but let me give some philosophical impetus to the idea that you should try just meeting and hanging out with some people. The human self is largely derivative of interactions between people, not from a transcendent ego sitting untouchable somewhere deep in the skull. These conditions that you've listed as very important to you, are only important to who you are now. They may always continue to be important to you, but they may not. When you begin spending your time with someone else, you will both be changed by the experience. You may yet become interested in marriage or children -- it's incredibly common for people your age not to want those things, only to change their minds later on. You may yet become a better conversationalist, even enjoying chatting with at least some few close friends. You may yet come to enjoy relying, and being relied upon, by another person. All of these things can, and frequently do, change in the course of long-term relationships with other people. If you use your current list of flaws as a barrier to meeting new people, you'll never give yourself a chance to overcome them.
posted by voltairemodern at 7:46 PM on December 28, 2008 [5 favorites]
posted by voltairemodern at 7:46 PM on December 28, 2008 [5 favorites]
As far as the disconnect with women goes, you'll never really understand them. If you're like me, they will always do things that will leave you baffled. But the same time, you can't think of them as these absolutely foreign species. In a lot of ways, they're just like you, insecurities and all. You can't be intimidated by them or that intimidation will overpower your interaction.
It's a duality that makes women such delightful(ly frustrating) creatures.
As cliche and cheesy as it sounds, just be yourself. The ones that are attracted to that will be the ones you want to spend time with. Though, I understand how hard that can be when you're too overwhelmed with the social aspect to simply relax and act naturally.
Don't be afraid to crash and burn with girls. When you realize that the worst that can happen is that they reject you, it's easy. I always remember the Undertones' song, "She Can Only Say No."
(Sorry for the random stream of advice, but I feel for your situation and want to help as much as I can.)
posted by Drainage! at 7:47 PM on December 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
It's a duality that makes women such delightful(ly frustrating) creatures.
As cliche and cheesy as it sounds, just be yourself. The ones that are attracted to that will be the ones you want to spend time with. Though, I understand how hard that can be when you're too overwhelmed with the social aspect to simply relax and act naturally.
Don't be afraid to crash and burn with girls. When you realize that the worst that can happen is that they reject you, it's easy. I always remember the Undertones' song, "She Can Only Say No."
(Sorry for the random stream of advice, but I feel for your situation and want to help as much as I can.)
posted by Drainage! at 7:47 PM on December 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
Let's think about this for a minute. You don't want a permanent relationship. You're not terribly comfortable with emotional involvement. You're insensitive and apparently not interested in changing that. You don't like/aren't good at making conversation. You're emotionally unavailable. You're unwilling to take on social obligations and responsibilities. You like hot women.
You, my friend, are a real catch.
Again, it sounds to me like what you want here is to have sex. The whole emotional-involvement, long-term-commitment thing isn't of interest, but your right hand is getting boring, and even switching sides isn't what it used to be. If that's really all you're looking for, there are Ways of making this happen. If your job really is as lucrative as you make it sound, you can afford to Take Care of This. Not to put too fine a point on it, but there's a saying that you don't pay a prostitute to have sex with you, you pay her to leave. Getting women to have sex with you isn't as hard as it sounds. Getting them to have sex with you for absolutely nothing in return, which is what you seem to be offering here, will cost you.
If hiring a prostitute doesn't appeal to you, maybe you should reconsider your priorities, because that seems to be the only option available as far as I can tell. If you actually want a relationship, you need to abandon your ludicrously ego-centric attitude. You'd be surprised how far a little humility goes.
posted by valkyryn at 7:48 PM on December 28, 2008 [27 favorites]
You, my friend, are a real catch.
Again, it sounds to me like what you want here is to have sex. The whole emotional-involvement, long-term-commitment thing isn't of interest, but your right hand is getting boring, and even switching sides isn't what it used to be. If that's really all you're looking for, there are Ways of making this happen. If your job really is as lucrative as you make it sound, you can afford to Take Care of This. Not to put too fine a point on it, but there's a saying that you don't pay a prostitute to have sex with you, you pay her to leave. Getting women to have sex with you isn't as hard as it sounds. Getting them to have sex with you for absolutely nothing in return, which is what you seem to be offering here, will cost you.
If hiring a prostitute doesn't appeal to you, maybe you should reconsider your priorities, because that seems to be the only option available as far as I can tell. If you actually want a relationship, you need to abandon your ludicrously ego-centric attitude. You'd be surprised how far a little humility goes.
posted by valkyryn at 7:48 PM on December 28, 2008 [27 favorites]
I'm sure there's more to you than just the above and I don't want to sound harsh. But.
None of your points by themselves are a big deal, but all together? Well, it looks like the only thing you're willing to bring to the table is the desire for a relationship with someone good-looking.
Nice if you can arrange it.
On the other hand, you might want to talk with a therapist on how you can work around some of the issues you noted and figure out how to compromise a bit on them. A lot of that stuff is not too hard to overcome if you really do want a relationship.
posted by lunaazul at 7:48 PM on December 28, 2008
None of your points by themselves are a big deal, but all together? Well, it looks like the only thing you're willing to bring to the table is the desire for a relationship with someone good-looking.
Nice if you can arrange it.
On the other hand, you might want to talk with a therapist on how you can work around some of the issues you noted and figure out how to compromise a bit on them. A lot of that stuff is not too hard to overcome if you really do want a relationship.
posted by lunaazul at 7:48 PM on December 28, 2008
It might help if you just try thinking of women as PEOPLE.
There are a lot of women out there in the world, and among them there are definitely some who have goals, personalities, and desires that will align with yours. If you just get out there and be yourself, the odds favour the eventuality that you'll meet someone you'll fit with. And along the way there'll probably be some you discover you don't fit with, and that's ok too. Nobody's expecting a soulmate on a first date, so don't get all fraught if you don't see stars on your first kiss or whatever. Just be nice and treat people with kindness and respect.
Also, high-five on the fact that you're declaring your desire not to have kids right up-front. While I absolutely do not condone honesty as a blanket policy (there's no need to be honest when a little white lie will spare the dignity of a person you've decided to part ways with, for instance), the subject of child-having is one of those subjects we should all be one hundred percent honest about, one hundred percent of the time.
Good luck!
posted by pseudostrabismus at 7:48 PM on December 28, 2008 [4 favorites]
There are a lot of women out there in the world, and among them there are definitely some who have goals, personalities, and desires that will align with yours. If you just get out there and be yourself, the odds favour the eventuality that you'll meet someone you'll fit with. And along the way there'll probably be some you discover you don't fit with, and that's ok too. Nobody's expecting a soulmate on a first date, so don't get all fraught if you don't see stars on your first kiss or whatever. Just be nice and treat people with kindness and respect.
Also, high-five on the fact that you're declaring your desire not to have kids right up-front. While I absolutely do not condone honesty as a blanket policy (there's no need to be honest when a little white lie will spare the dignity of a person you've decided to part ways with, for instance), the subject of child-having is one of those subjects we should all be one hundred percent honest about, one hundred percent of the time.
Good luck!
posted by pseudostrabismus at 7:48 PM on December 28, 2008 [4 favorites]
So your problem is basically that you're a bloke. You'll cope. Billions of others have.
1: takes a bit of honesty, and will lower your hit-rate. Deal with it.
2: non-issue. When you find a girl you really dig, you'll do some of this stuff, not because you've suddenly become Hugh Grant, but because she wants to, and you want to do things with her.
3: will come with a bit of experience.
4: is not a problem, and could actually be an advantage. Ask her about herself, don't be talking about yourself.
5: Blokeness. See 2.
6: You'll deal with.
7: Is entirely normal. When you find a girl you really dig, this will change. Might be a useful barometer.
8: Blokeness. You'll cope.
posted by pompomtom at 7:50 PM on December 28, 2008
1: takes a bit of honesty, and will lower your hit-rate. Deal with it.
2: non-issue. When you find a girl you really dig, you'll do some of this stuff, not because you've suddenly become Hugh Grant, but because she wants to, and you want to do things with her.
3: will come with a bit of experience.
4: is not a problem, and could actually be an advantage. Ask her about herself, don't be talking about yourself.
5: Blokeness. See 2.
6: You'll deal with.
7: Is entirely normal. When you find a girl you really dig, this will change. Might be a useful barometer.
8: Blokeness. You'll cope.
posted by pompomtom at 7:50 PM on December 28, 2008
You are certainly setting up a lot of roadblocks to preemptively disqualify yourself from ever having a relationship. Are you sure you aren't doing this to mask a fear of rejection?
Not everyone gets married or wants to get married. However, bear in mind, too, that your opinion may change as you get older. Would you want 12 year old you to plan the life of 24 year old you? Further, not every woman you date is going to expect you to marry her, especially not at 24 years old.
My suggestion to you if you wish to try out dating and relationships but still remain relatively independent would be to find a woman who lives in a nearby town... close enough that you can see her regularly but far enough that it's inconvenient to meet more than once or twice a week.
posted by MegoSteve at 7:51 PM on December 28, 2008
Not everyone gets married or wants to get married. However, bear in mind, too, that your opinion may change as you get older. Would you want 12 year old you to plan the life of 24 year old you? Further, not every woman you date is going to expect you to marry her, especially not at 24 years old.
My suggestion to you if you wish to try out dating and relationships but still remain relatively independent would be to find a woman who lives in a nearby town... close enough that you can see her regularly but far enough that it's inconvenient to meet more than once or twice a week.
posted by MegoSteve at 7:51 PM on December 28, 2008
if most women around my age feel differently
If a woman asked me how she looked in some outfit, is it wrong to give an honest opinion, backed up by some sort of theory or explanation, instead of offering only platitudes?
I'm a terrible conversationalist - especially with women.
a woman's perspective
What do all these small snippets share? They're all points (and not all of them) where you seem to treat all women as having the same perspective, wanting the same things, reacting in the same way. In other words, it sounds a lot like you're too busy worrying about what WOMEN want, when really it's always a matter of an individual person. When people say that they have trouble with talking to women, that usually means that they have trouble understanding that women aren't some strange creatures different from themselves.
Women are people, ya know? And I'm sure you do know... You may just have trouble keeping that in mind when trying to date. Some women want commitment, some don't. Some love diamonds and dreamily staring into their lover's eyes... But just about all the women I know find that cheesy.
Look at the way you phrase the last sentence of your question: "do I throw caution to the wind, not worry about someone else so much, brace myself for disappointment, and try, try again?" You word it as though dating women is like throwing yourself into a tornado, grasping blindly at whatever you might find, and hoping luck comes your way. You're not treating it like a collection of interactions with individual people, with their own quirks and personalities -- instead, it's like Dating Women is some giant, undifferentiated mass of behavior that you'll have to endure.
Yeah, yeah, that was just some silly wording and you didn't mean that much by it, I know. But I'm just trying to point out something at the base of how you've expressed your situation. You're not thinking about finding a person who fits your lifestyle and personality well enough for you both to be happy. Instead, you're thinking of women as some class of beings unlike yourself and dating them as a trial beyond your control.
So, what do I think you need to do? Well, first, I totally agree that you have a ton of rules about what isn't acceptable and that this is probably standing in your way. But I think you probably need to think about re-conceptualizing dating. Women are just people. Women you might date are just people, too. And there really isn't some process of Dating Women... Instead, it's just you meeting someone, spending some time with that individual person, and then seeing what comes from there.
Not all people are meant to be together, of course, and you may very well end up spending time with some people who don't end up fitting right with you. But that's just the way it is for everyone -- you're not special in that way. It's just a matter of meeting enough people, spending time with people who make you happy and who are made happy by you, and going from there.
posted by Ms. Saint at 7:59 PM on December 28, 2008 [11 favorites]
If a woman asked me how she looked in some outfit, is it wrong to give an honest opinion, backed up by some sort of theory or explanation, instead of offering only platitudes?
I'm a terrible conversationalist - especially with women.
a woman's perspective
What do all these small snippets share? They're all points (and not all of them) where you seem to treat all women as having the same perspective, wanting the same things, reacting in the same way. In other words, it sounds a lot like you're too busy worrying about what WOMEN want, when really it's always a matter of an individual person. When people say that they have trouble with talking to women, that usually means that they have trouble understanding that women aren't some strange creatures different from themselves.
Women are people, ya know? And I'm sure you do know... You may just have trouble keeping that in mind when trying to date. Some women want commitment, some don't. Some love diamonds and dreamily staring into their lover's eyes... But just about all the women I know find that cheesy.
Look at the way you phrase the last sentence of your question: "do I throw caution to the wind, not worry about someone else so much, brace myself for disappointment, and try, try again?" You word it as though dating women is like throwing yourself into a tornado, grasping blindly at whatever you might find, and hoping luck comes your way. You're not treating it like a collection of interactions with individual people, with their own quirks and personalities -- instead, it's like Dating Women is some giant, undifferentiated mass of behavior that you'll have to endure.
Yeah, yeah, that was just some silly wording and you didn't mean that much by it, I know. But I'm just trying to point out something at the base of how you've expressed your situation. You're not thinking about finding a person who fits your lifestyle and personality well enough for you both to be happy. Instead, you're thinking of women as some class of beings unlike yourself and dating them as a trial beyond your control.
So, what do I think you need to do? Well, first, I totally agree that you have a ton of rules about what isn't acceptable and that this is probably standing in your way. But I think you probably need to think about re-conceptualizing dating. Women are just people. Women you might date are just people, too. And there really isn't some process of Dating Women... Instead, it's just you meeting someone, spending some time with that individual person, and then seeing what comes from there.
Not all people are meant to be together, of course, and you may very well end up spending time with some people who don't end up fitting right with you. But that's just the way it is for everyone -- you're not special in that way. It's just a matter of meeting enough people, spending time with people who make you happy and who are made happy by you, and going from there.
posted by Ms. Saint at 7:59 PM on December 28, 2008 [11 favorites]
I met someone the other day who has all of those traits, and he's engaged to a beautiful, wonderful lady.
I think the answer is sort of a yes, you throw caution into the wind. Don't be careless, but if the goal is to suppress the expression of negative traits, the logical conclusion will be to never form a relationship with anybody.
posted by philosophistry at 8:01 PM on December 28, 2008
I think the answer is sort of a yes, you throw caution into the wind. Don't be careless, but if the goal is to suppress the expression of negative traits, the logical conclusion will be to never form a relationship with anybody.
posted by philosophistry at 8:01 PM on December 28, 2008
Wow, Ms. Saint, you said pretty much what I was trying to say, but ten times more eloquently. Damn this inefficient brain! Cheers.
posted by Drainage! at 8:03 PM on December 28, 2008
posted by Drainage! at 8:03 PM on December 28, 2008
It definitely sounds like you're not ready for or not actually interested in a relationship. If you think that's not the case, I'd try online dating. You can list all your requirements, start the relationship off lightly with getting-to-know-you in writing where you can practice and think about your questions and responses, etc.
Would you describe your friendships with these girls that you mentioned? Did you have problems there and what were they? Is that where you're getting these ideas about what women expect and are like?
posted by thebazilist at 8:13 PM on December 28, 2008
Would you describe your friendships with these girls that you mentioned? Did you have problems there and what were they? Is that where you're getting these ideas about what women expect and are like?
posted by thebazilist at 8:13 PM on December 28, 2008
You need to practise having relationships. That means forgetting all about the preconditions you listed, or big plans like marriage and interdependence, and especially forgetting about yourself and your own inadequacies for a bit, and just diving in at the shallow end.
It's really quite simple. Find a girl you think is okay (not super-hot oh my god I want to marry this person), or if you can't find a girl find a substitute guy, and invite her out for lunch or coffee. Then try to enjoy yourself/make her laugh.
posted by dydecker at 8:33 PM on December 28, 2008 [3 favorites]
It's really quite simple. Find a girl you think is okay (not super-hot oh my god I want to marry this person), or if you can't find a girl find a substitute guy, and invite her out for lunch or coffee. Then try to enjoy yourself/make her laugh.
posted by dydecker at 8:33 PM on December 28, 2008 [3 favorites]
Not every woman is Carrie Bradshaw and her friends.
If I ask my boyfriend how I look in something, and he doesn't think it looks good, he might not say "I think that looks like dog crap", even if that's what he thought. He might say instead, "I don't think that flatters your best features" or "How about that grey dress you wore last month to the party? I rather liked that." Those are KIND ways of not being a dick but not lying. (And sometimes, I wear it anyway no matter what he says.)That's just called being tactful.
What do you talk about with your male friends? No seriously. I've never dated a guy who had a set of topics for his guy friends and a set of topics for me (then again, I don't date guys who like hanging out in strip clubs). I mean, what do you talk about with ANYONE?
Lots of women are not very open. But you could say "I'm not very open, it could take months before i feel comfortable with you to confide in you, don't take that as lack of interest." HOwever, this one feels like the biggest excuse of all.
You think that women might not have serious financial or geographic or career or ambitions?
I was going to go through the whole thing, but it sounds to me like your impressions of how women are are concocted from movies and television, and you're so far off it's not even funny. You're missing out, big time. But, instead of wanting to be convinced that you're wrong, you just want someone to tell you that yeah, you can get Heidi Klum by being a taciturn, ignorant, self-centered ass. If you have enough money, you can probably find some vapid blonde nothing who won't care and won't make demands on you. Good luck there.
posted by micawber at 8:47 PM on December 28, 2008 [2 favorites]
It sounds like you're listing your personality traits and desires in the least appealing way and then daring us to find a woman who will want to be with you. That's fairly counter-productive, don't you think?
I'd say, go ahead and "throw caution to the wind" but you should try to be open to the possibility of bending and growing and maturing. Think about it, before now you didn't care especially much about having a relationship, and now you're beginning to rethink that. Not to say you'll wake up one day desperately wanting to have kids, but you ought to stop looking at your list as a static and complete definition of who you are and what you have to offer in a relationship.
There are women who can handle talking to, dating, and having relationships with men who have your list of traits. You don't need to protect the entire female population from... yourself.
(Also, there is a huge difference between saying "you're fat, stop eating so much" and "that dress isn't very flattering on you"--a great many women know the difference.)
posted by Meg_Murry at 9:15 PM on December 28, 2008
I'd say, go ahead and "throw caution to the wind" but you should try to be open to the possibility of bending and growing and maturing. Think about it, before now you didn't care especially much about having a relationship, and now you're beginning to rethink that. Not to say you'll wake up one day desperately wanting to have kids, but you ought to stop looking at your list as a static and complete definition of who you are and what you have to offer in a relationship.
There are women who can handle talking to, dating, and having relationships with men who have your list of traits. You don't need to protect the entire female population from... yourself.
(Also, there is a huge difference between saying "you're fat, stop eating so much" and "that dress isn't very flattering on you"--a great many women know the difference.)
posted by Meg_Murry at 9:15 PM on December 28, 2008
I'm going to suggest, gently, that you may have some growing up to do before you're ready for a serious relationship. Perhaps some part of you knows this, which is why you've developed such a strong case against getting involved with anyone. The inner push you're feeling to do something about this is a good sign; personal growth occurs during times of personal dissatisfaction. A few sessions with a counselor might be very useful to you right now.
posted by SPrintF at 9:58 PM on December 28, 2008
posted by SPrintF at 9:58 PM on December 28, 2008
It's a duality that makes women such delightful(ly frustrating) creatures.
Um, barf.
I know lots of prickly, introspective, closed-off women, and I know romantic, cheesy, chatty men. Our society genders certain personality traits-- men are aggressive, women are nurturing-- but this gendering is nothing more than a set of social constructs furthered by mainstream media and mythology. You should date women who have personalities that you find appealing, whether that is someone else who is no-nonsense, straightforward, and ambitious, or someone completely different. You do not sound like someone who would mesh well with a very traditionally-minded woman who buys into gender types completely; so don't date those types of people.
One way to do this is to involve yourself in activities that you are honestly interested in, not ones that you think will help you meet women. For example, if your interests are free/open source software, Libertarianism, and rock climbing, I would not advise you to start hanging around flower arranging classes because you think there will be chicks there. You could also try Okcupid.com, which appeals to many of the geekier/internettier folks out there.
posted by alicetiara at 10:02 PM on December 28, 2008 [6 favorites]
Um, barf.
I know lots of prickly, introspective, closed-off women, and I know romantic, cheesy, chatty men. Our society genders certain personality traits-- men are aggressive, women are nurturing-- but this gendering is nothing more than a set of social constructs furthered by mainstream media and mythology. You should date women who have personalities that you find appealing, whether that is someone else who is no-nonsense, straightforward, and ambitious, or someone completely different. You do not sound like someone who would mesh well with a very traditionally-minded woman who buys into gender types completely; so don't date those types of people.
One way to do this is to involve yourself in activities that you are honestly interested in, not ones that you think will help you meet women. For example, if your interests are free/open source software, Libertarianism, and rock climbing, I would not advise you to start hanging around flower arranging classes because you think there will be chicks there. You could also try Okcupid.com, which appeals to many of the geekier/internettier folks out there.
posted by alicetiara at 10:02 PM on December 28, 2008 [6 favorites]
Meet someone you like. Do this any way you can. Eventually you will find a woman who makes you forget about your list, which is convenient for you, because that's exactly what needs to happen if you're ever going to have a real relationship.
Just an example: I'm 23 and a year ago marriage was the furthest thing from my mind. I would've laughed if you'd brought it up. Now: though I haven't yet (officially) proposed, it's something my girlfriend and I talk about all the time.
posted by smorange at 10:39 PM on December 28, 2008
Just an example: I'm 23 and a year ago marriage was the furthest thing from my mind. I would've laughed if you'd brought it up. Now: though I haven't yet (officially) proposed, it's something my girlfriend and I talk about all the time.
posted by smorange at 10:39 PM on December 28, 2008
If a woman asked me how she looked in some outfit, is it wrong to give an honest opinion, backed up by some sort of theory or explanation, instead of offering only platitudes? (never happened to me - yet - but the kind of thing I'm talking about)
OK, thing the first: I don't know what percentage of relationship problems wouldn't exist if people got out of the habit of thinking in terms of "women" and "men" as generalisations, but I bet it would be over 50%.
Yes, there are women for whom a question like this is a trap - fishing for compliments, a passive-aggressive way to start a fight, whatever. I regard these women as a waste of time and effort. Fortunately there are also many women who actually appreciate an honest (tactful) opinion. I married one of them.
Note than "being honest" is not an excuse for "being a shithead." "That's not a flattering outfit" is honest. "That makes you look like you have a beer gut" is also honest. Only one of those is a good answer.
I admit, I'm also shallow - I greatly respect and admire intellect, creativity, ambition, and other fine qualities. But I'm also drawn to purely physical beauty. This isn't as bad as it seems, is it?
I'll give the same answer I gave a woman who asked much the same thing on ask - no, not in and of itself, as long as you don't go around trying to make people feel like shit because they don't appeal to your sense of beauty. But be aware that, depending on what you find beautiful, it can be pretty fleeting. Most of us tend to look worse at 50 than at 25 by most standards of beauty. We go bald, we get paunches, our tits sag, our arses make a break in the direction of our knees. Learning to appreciate qualities that stick around is a great way of avoiding being a sad 50 year old striking out with 25 year olds who think you're a creepy old git.
I don't like social obligations - I don't want to be in an interdependent relationship, and I don't want it to be financially one-sided. I like my space, and I honestly can't picture myself ever wanting to spend time with a single person more than a few nights a week. Maybe that's not unusual, but I feel like maybe it is.
I think it is.
The thing is that you have some pretty narrow requirements. That's not, in and of itself, a bad thing. But it does narrow your field, a lot. You can either choose to relax those requirements, or you can choose to accept that, even with the most perfect communication skills in the world, your lack of interest in marriage, kids, cohabitation, and so on, will simply rule you out as a viable partner for many women, and work with the smaller pool that it leaves you.
The other point I guess I'd make is that narrow, definite requirements are a bit odd in a 24 year old with no real experience. I don't want to sound like I'm condescending from a position of age, because I hate that shit when people have done it to me, but perhaps you should ask yourself whether you have the life experience to be certain about all the things you think you're sure of - to offer an example, an ex of mine was pretty much unconvinced that living together was worth much until she stayed over a few nights, and one morning after a fun wake up announced, "So this is why people get married!" Experience will most likely change your opinions about stuff to some degree; be wary of cutting off your future paths.
It's a duality that makes women such delightful(ly frustrating) creatures.
This is a dumb worldview.
A friend embarking on his first same-sex relationship asked me for advice once. I explained to him that the thing he would be most struck by is that he would suddenly discover that all the stereotypes he carried about being unable to understand women would suddenly apply to men - or, more specifically, a man: his new boyfriend. Because what makes people seem strange and weird and hard to understand isn't their genitals, it's the fact you want to have a romantic relationship with them.
posted by rodgerd at 11:23 PM on December 28, 2008 [7 favorites]
OK, thing the first: I don't know what percentage of relationship problems wouldn't exist if people got out of the habit of thinking in terms of "women" and "men" as generalisations, but I bet it would be over 50%.
Yes, there are women for whom a question like this is a trap - fishing for compliments, a passive-aggressive way to start a fight, whatever. I regard these women as a waste of time and effort. Fortunately there are also many women who actually appreciate an honest (tactful) opinion. I married one of them.
Note than "being honest" is not an excuse for "being a shithead." "That's not a flattering outfit" is honest. "That makes you look like you have a beer gut" is also honest. Only one of those is a good answer.
I admit, I'm also shallow - I greatly respect and admire intellect, creativity, ambition, and other fine qualities. But I'm also drawn to purely physical beauty. This isn't as bad as it seems, is it?
I'll give the same answer I gave a woman who asked much the same thing on ask - no, not in and of itself, as long as you don't go around trying to make people feel like shit because they don't appeal to your sense of beauty. But be aware that, depending on what you find beautiful, it can be pretty fleeting. Most of us tend to look worse at 50 than at 25 by most standards of beauty. We go bald, we get paunches, our tits sag, our arses make a break in the direction of our knees. Learning to appreciate qualities that stick around is a great way of avoiding being a sad 50 year old striking out with 25 year olds who think you're a creepy old git.
I don't like social obligations - I don't want to be in an interdependent relationship, and I don't want it to be financially one-sided. I like my space, and I honestly can't picture myself ever wanting to spend time with a single person more than a few nights a week. Maybe that's not unusual, but I feel like maybe it is.
I think it is.
The thing is that you have some pretty narrow requirements. That's not, in and of itself, a bad thing. But it does narrow your field, a lot. You can either choose to relax those requirements, or you can choose to accept that, even with the most perfect communication skills in the world, your lack of interest in marriage, kids, cohabitation, and so on, will simply rule you out as a viable partner for many women, and work with the smaller pool that it leaves you.
The other point I guess I'd make is that narrow, definite requirements are a bit odd in a 24 year old with no real experience. I don't want to sound like I'm condescending from a position of age, because I hate that shit when people have done it to me, but perhaps you should ask yourself whether you have the life experience to be certain about all the things you think you're sure of - to offer an example, an ex of mine was pretty much unconvinced that living together was worth much until she stayed over a few nights, and one morning after a fun wake up announced, "So this is why people get married!" Experience will most likely change your opinions about stuff to some degree; be wary of cutting off your future paths.
It's a duality that makes women such delightful(ly frustrating) creatures.
This is a dumb worldview.
A friend embarking on his first same-sex relationship asked me for advice once. I explained to him that the thing he would be most struck by is that he would suddenly discover that all the stereotypes he carried about being unable to understand women would suddenly apply to men - or, more specifically, a man: his new boyfriend. Because what makes people seem strange and weird and hard to understand isn't their genitals, it's the fact you want to have a romantic relationship with them.
posted by rodgerd at 11:23 PM on December 28, 2008 [7 favorites]
Rogerd's just given you some great advice.
You're spending too much time thinking about all of this and no time actually living it. You're also presenting long lists of things as absolutes about yourself that make you "undateable", and not a single thing about what makes you dateable other than, essentially, I'm smart and I have good income potential. What's up with that? Surely you're a nice guy, or you're funny, you're good looking-ish, or you are kind? You're 24. You have a long, long way down the road to go just yet. Your life will change, and it will change you. Part of that process is to open to other people. Even people you don't want to date, but just want to get to know. Why not just do that for a while and see what happens?
Maybe it's the mention of money/income disparity and the overall tone of the original post, but I smell a whiff of what I call Take A Number Syndrome here. TANS appears when someone has accomplished something, and in the accomplishment, their entire life would change. Change is: I finish law school, now I have opportunities for work I'd find a bit more interesting or challenging than the work I had before. Apotheosis is: I finished law school. This means I'm immediately rich, powerful, sexy and interesting, and everyone will want to know me/date me/respect me.
That's when TANS kicks in. The sufferer adopts a demeanor of combined hope/arrogance/disappointment. Hope that they'll need a Take A Number setup to organise the hordes of people who'll start queuing to get to know them/date them/hire them/be cartoonishly impressed. Arrogance in direct relation to how far they had to travel to scale the heights of their own metaphor. And disappointment that the queues never form... or if they do, they aren't the sort of queues they had in mind. This leads to confusion, loneliness and bitterness. Some people go back to school and get another degree, or lose another 10 lbs, to see if the apotheosis will come and that TAN machine will get a workout. Those who figure out how silly it is to think that a degree (or losing 20 lbs) will solve all their feelings of inadequacy and make them a golden object of desire... they move on to happy lives.
Don't fall victim to TANS. People are just people, wherever you go. That girl who catches your eye? Talk to her. Like you'd like someone to talk to you. If you're worried about someone only wanting you for your money, guess what... you'll figure that out pretty quickly once you start dating them and they insist you buy them things and pay for everything. Maybe that trade will be OK for you.
I have a friend who suffers from TANS. Same personality quirks you've listed, same sorts of questions about money/women/why won't hot chicks date me now I've done what I thought would guarantee hot chicks would date me. Same sorts of stuff about how to make sure he didn't attract gold diggers, when because he admitted his personality flaws and occasionally chaotic schedule. Same sorts of stuff you're talking about in your original post.
He's married now. She is a stunningly attractive woman. Really gorgeous. As in, you occasionally catch yourself staring sort of gorgeous. Personality, she's really kind of OK. Intellectually, pretty average, not dim. She also made it pretty clear to him that she was only interested in him as long as the flow of cash towards her and her family kept moving. As in saying things like "you need to buy this condo for my mother or this car for my cousin or I will stop seeing you" He thought she was the most beautiful woman he'd ever seen, and made a lot of really nonsensical and slightly degrading "it's her culture" sorts of excuses. You know what? They're both happy. She's good to him, despite the money stuff. He's good to her, despite the fact that he will say tactless things about how she needs plastic surgery to keep herself in tip top shape. In other words, they found each other and complete each other. Any other man would be miserable in this, but I think he's actually pretty happy. Though he'd prefer to not have the really naked demands for cash, he sees parity in their relationship, and he gets the girl that he wanted - physically beautiful - without having to change his dress sense or much about himself that would attract someone who'd give him a different sort of relationship. She gets financial security for herself and her family, with top up surgeries/treatments to her heart's content.
Take that cautionary tale as you see fit. The period of time he had TANS before he met this girl, he could have met someone different. Or maybe not. The point is, you won't know for yourself unless you just open the door to change and to women as people. Now, while you're young, while you're flexible, while women around you are the same way. Don't wait until you're 35. Do it now.
posted by Grrlscout at 2:59 AM on December 29, 2008 [7 favorites]
You're spending too much time thinking about all of this and no time actually living it. You're also presenting long lists of things as absolutes about yourself that make you "undateable", and not a single thing about what makes you dateable other than, essentially, I'm smart and I have good income potential. What's up with that? Surely you're a nice guy, or you're funny, you're good looking-ish, or you are kind? You're 24. You have a long, long way down the road to go just yet. Your life will change, and it will change you. Part of that process is to open to other people. Even people you don't want to date, but just want to get to know. Why not just do that for a while and see what happens?
Maybe it's the mention of money/income disparity and the overall tone of the original post, but I smell a whiff of what I call Take A Number Syndrome here. TANS appears when someone has accomplished something, and in the accomplishment, their entire life would change. Change is: I finish law school, now I have opportunities for work I'd find a bit more interesting or challenging than the work I had before. Apotheosis is: I finished law school. This means I'm immediately rich, powerful, sexy and interesting, and everyone will want to know me/date me/respect me.
That's when TANS kicks in. The sufferer adopts a demeanor of combined hope/arrogance/disappointment. Hope that they'll need a Take A Number setup to organise the hordes of people who'll start queuing to get to know them/date them/hire them/be cartoonishly impressed. Arrogance in direct relation to how far they had to travel to scale the heights of their own metaphor. And disappointment that the queues never form... or if they do, they aren't the sort of queues they had in mind. This leads to confusion, loneliness and bitterness. Some people go back to school and get another degree, or lose another 10 lbs, to see if the apotheosis will come and that TAN machine will get a workout. Those who figure out how silly it is to think that a degree (or losing 20 lbs) will solve all their feelings of inadequacy and make them a golden object of desire... they move on to happy lives.
Don't fall victim to TANS. People are just people, wherever you go. That girl who catches your eye? Talk to her. Like you'd like someone to talk to you. If you're worried about someone only wanting you for your money, guess what... you'll figure that out pretty quickly once you start dating them and they insist you buy them things and pay for everything. Maybe that trade will be OK for you.
I have a friend who suffers from TANS. Same personality quirks you've listed, same sorts of questions about money/women/why won't hot chicks date me now I've done what I thought would guarantee hot chicks would date me. Same sorts of stuff about how to make sure he didn't attract gold diggers, when because he admitted his personality flaws and occasionally chaotic schedule. Same sorts of stuff you're talking about in your original post.
He's married now. She is a stunningly attractive woman. Really gorgeous. As in, you occasionally catch yourself staring sort of gorgeous. Personality, she's really kind of OK. Intellectually, pretty average, not dim. She also made it pretty clear to him that she was only interested in him as long as the flow of cash towards her and her family kept moving. As in saying things like "you need to buy this condo for my mother or this car for my cousin or I will stop seeing you" He thought she was the most beautiful woman he'd ever seen, and made a lot of really nonsensical and slightly degrading "it's her culture" sorts of excuses. You know what? They're both happy. She's good to him, despite the money stuff. He's good to her, despite the fact that he will say tactless things about how she needs plastic surgery to keep herself in tip top shape. In other words, they found each other and complete each other. Any other man would be miserable in this, but I think he's actually pretty happy. Though he'd prefer to not have the really naked demands for cash, he sees parity in their relationship, and he gets the girl that he wanted - physically beautiful - without having to change his dress sense or much about himself that would attract someone who'd give him a different sort of relationship. She gets financial security for herself and her family, with top up surgeries/treatments to her heart's content.
Take that cautionary tale as you see fit. The period of time he had TANS before he met this girl, he could have met someone different. Or maybe not. The point is, you won't know for yourself unless you just open the door to change and to women as people. Now, while you're young, while you're flexible, while women around you are the same way. Don't wait until you're 35. Do it now.
posted by Grrlscout at 2:59 AM on December 29, 2008 [7 favorites]
Women might not need, like, or want diamonds.
I have my own; some inherited, as well as pieces purchased by me, thank you very much.
posted by jgirl at 5:46 AM on December 29, 2008
I have my own; some inherited, as well as pieces purchased by me, thank you very much.
posted by jgirl at 5:46 AM on December 29, 2008
Step 1 is clarifying what exactly you want, and why you want it. Once that's clear, you can start a systematic search for others whose desires are compatible. Thanks to the glorious Internet, you have a good chance of finding what you want -- but you have to know, very clearly, what you want.
posted by amtho at 6:53 AM on December 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by amtho at 6:53 AM on December 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
Honestly, you sound like a typical inexperienced, somewhat sheltered, young guy. Thankfully, experience is cheap and easy to get. I think you'll find that youre overthinking this and you should just try to meet someone you have some shared interest with. Perhaps this will help get you out of your shell and show you that a lot of your worries are non-issues outside of year four of a LTR and many of them are just stereotypical strawmen, err strawwomen.
Humans seems to have a built-in mechanism to seek out partners. So, right now you may think that spending so much time with someone would be crazy and weekend getaways are for the birds, but once the part of you that wants to be in relationship truly turns on you may find your current opinions will change. You wont turn into some bodice-ripper romantic lead, but you may find yourself a tad less cynical about the whole thing.
Start small, be open minded, jettison your assumptions, and just get out there and do you best.
Lastly, you should really ask yourself if youre depressed. Reading your question set off some red flags for me for depression. Relationships are easier when you arent depressed.
posted by damn dirty ape at 7:05 AM on December 29, 2008
Humans seems to have a built-in mechanism to seek out partners. So, right now you may think that spending so much time with someone would be crazy and weekend getaways are for the birds, but once the part of you that wants to be in relationship truly turns on you may find your current opinions will change. You wont turn into some bodice-ripper romantic lead, but you may find yourself a tad less cynical about the whole thing.
Start small, be open minded, jettison your assumptions, and just get out there and do you best.
Lastly, you should really ask yourself if youre depressed. Reading your question set off some red flags for me for depression. Relationships are easier when you arent depressed.
posted by damn dirty ape at 7:05 AM on December 29, 2008
I recommend this book by the Queer Eye guys. The advice therein goes not only towards dressing fashionably but also lots of good tips on dating and how to seem interesting.
posted by waraw at 7:50 AM on December 29, 2008
posted by waraw at 7:50 AM on December 29, 2008
Never experienced anything more intimate than a hug, never had a woman romantically interested in me (that I know of).
...
I'm not into Valentine's Day, diamonds, weekend getaways at beds and breakfasts, or staring into each other's eyes.
Don't knock it 'til you've tried it, hun. Hormones are a hell of a drug.
posted by heatherann at 7:55 AM on December 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
...
I'm not into Valentine's Day, diamonds, weekend getaways at beds and breakfasts, or staring into each other's eyes.
Don't knock it 'til you've tried it, hun. Hormones are a hell of a drug.
posted by heatherann at 7:55 AM on December 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
Heatherann has a very good point there. You say you're not into X, Y and Z and would be bad at A, B and C but you've never tried it. If you actually fell in love with someone who reciprocated your feelings, you might find that all kinds of things change. Very few people are mesmerised by the abstract idea of gazing into another person's eyes, and yet people in love quite often engage in this behaviour.
It's a bit like sex. If you described the physical act to an alien, it really wouldn't sound all that appealing as a mating ritual, and yet we humans who do engage in it find it rather compelling.
It occurs to me that your entire post boils down to "I am not interested in bonding." I think it's more than likely that you're afraid of bonding. There is risk, but there is also reward, and most of us find the latter outweighs the former. You might give it a go.
posted by DarlingBri at 9:22 AM on December 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
It's a bit like sex. If you described the physical act to an alien, it really wouldn't sound all that appealing as a mating ritual, and yet we humans who do engage in it find it rather compelling.
It occurs to me that your entire post boils down to "I am not interested in bonding." I think it's more than likely that you're afraid of bonding. There is risk, but there is also reward, and most of us find the latter outweighs the former. You might give it a go.
posted by DarlingBri at 9:22 AM on December 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
Well, your post is puzzling... from what you've described, you basically just want to have sex two or three times a week, and you're willing to put a certain very minimum effort toward this connection being considered a kind of "relationship," if absolutely necessary. You don't want commitment, romance, sharing, conversation, or social interaction. You do want financial parity (as I read it), and somebody who is beautiful; other attractive qualities wouldn't be bad, but they are secondary, tertiary, or whatever. This is what you've described, and pretty clearly, but the puzzling part is where you say you find yourself "daydreaming more and more."
Daydreaming, as opposed to, say, "fantasizing," seems to suggest some sort of romance, some sharing and emotional investment instead of just a purely physical relationship... and you don't seem like the sort of person who is imprecise with language. I mean you could have asked "how can I have sex with an attractive woman on a regular basis with absolutely no strings, a minimum of conversation, and no expectations at all, if I don't want to hire a prostitute or in any way pay for the experience?" and people would have tried to answer that question. Why ask about a relationship and then negate every single thing that makes a relationship more than simply a brief exchange of bodily fluids on a fairly regular basis?
I suspect you are being obtuse because you are trying to protect yourself from... the idea of putting yourself out there? All the potential pain and struggle? I don't really know, but if you really want any kind of helpful advice, I think you should ask this question again, a little more honestly. If you are really thinking of some sort of emotional connection, you need to be willing to admit that. If you just want some semi-regular sex without any kind of investment, financial or emotional, ask about that (it will certainly be a highly favorited thread!).
And just as a note, I want to tell you that the reason to be with someone is that it's fun. And it's exciting, yes, but it's also plain enjoyable. And warm and comforting. It makes you happier. It makes life's burdens less onerous. It expands you. It makes your world better. When you find that with someone, you get together. That's how you work that. Your post is full of dread, and I don't understand this. You aren't such a strange creature that no one will ever understand or care for you; you don't have to settle for the least worse of possible arrangements.
posted by taz at 9:37 AM on December 29, 2008 [5 favorites]
Daydreaming, as opposed to, say, "fantasizing," seems to suggest some sort of romance, some sharing and emotional investment instead of just a purely physical relationship... and you don't seem like the sort of person who is imprecise with language. I mean you could have asked "how can I have sex with an attractive woman on a regular basis with absolutely no strings, a minimum of conversation, and no expectations at all, if I don't want to hire a prostitute or in any way pay for the experience?" and people would have tried to answer that question. Why ask about a relationship and then negate every single thing that makes a relationship more than simply a brief exchange of bodily fluids on a fairly regular basis?
I suspect you are being obtuse because you are trying to protect yourself from... the idea of putting yourself out there? All the potential pain and struggle? I don't really know, but if you really want any kind of helpful advice, I think you should ask this question again, a little more honestly. If you are really thinking of some sort of emotional connection, you need to be willing to admit that. If you just want some semi-regular sex without any kind of investment, financial or emotional, ask about that (it will certainly be a highly favorited thread!).
And just as a note, I want to tell you that the reason to be with someone is that it's fun. And it's exciting, yes, but it's also plain enjoyable. And warm and comforting. It makes you happier. It makes life's burdens less onerous. It expands you. It makes your world better. When you find that with someone, you get together. That's how you work that. Your post is full of dread, and I don't understand this. You aren't such a strange creature that no one will ever understand or care for you; you don't have to settle for the least worse of possible arrangements.
posted by taz at 9:37 AM on December 29, 2008 [5 favorites]
What valkyryn said, to be frank. Go get laid a few times, then see how you feel about the situation.
posted by Guy_Inamonkeysuit at 9:39 AM on December 29, 2008
posted by Guy_Inamonkeysuit at 9:39 AM on December 29, 2008
A few comments.
First, some of the things you've listed (not liking social obligations, not being open, not interested in marriage/kids, not wanting to be interdependant) are things that could easily change if you met the right person. People change a LOT in their 20s... and it sounds like most of your changing is ahead of you, because a lot of those changes come through experiences.
I'm a 25 year old woman who people think of as relatively stable, as pragmatic, logical, and so on. I have been that way in all of my previous relationships (3 serious ones). I never EVER thought I was the kind of person to consider a long distance relationship with someone I'd only met once, or the kind of person who would want to constantly be around the person I was dating, or the kind of person who would live with someone I was dating. But then I fell in love with my current boyfriend, and it all changed almost overnight.
As for the rest of your list, some of those will indeed make it more difficult to meet and get to know women in general. That doesn't mean you can't meet women and get to know women... but it does mean that it will be more difficult for you than for many other guys. So you have two options: 1) accept that it will be more tough going, brace yourself for lots and lots of rejection before you find a good one, and start looking, or 2) work on a few things like conversation and sensitivity (or tact, at the very least), brace yourself for lots of rejection before you find a good one, and start looking.
Not all women need over-the-top romance or white lies about looking good in an outfit. Generally speaking, the ones who need those things are going to be higher-maintenance and you'll probably want to avoid them anyway. Almost all women require some gestures of appreciation every so often (even if/especially if they are small and thoughtful), and almost all women appreciate at least a little tact. For example, "How do I look in this outfit?" (when a dress makes her look flat-chested) could be answered many different ways. Saying "You're flat chested" is only going to fly with a very few women... saying "That dress makes you look flat chested" will fly with a few more, but saying "I think there are other dresses that show off your gorgeous curves better" will probably go over pretty well with most women. (If you can't tell, the difference is that you're making it clear that it's the article of clothing at fault, not the woman.)
Anyway, good luck. I saw some earlier recommendations that mentioned joining clubs and such where you have interests. This will be a much better idea for you than trying to randomly approach people at a bar or coffee shop.
posted by etherealclarity at 9:54 AM on December 29, 2008
First, some of the things you've listed (not liking social obligations, not being open, not interested in marriage/kids, not wanting to be interdependant) are things that could easily change if you met the right person. People change a LOT in their 20s... and it sounds like most of your changing is ahead of you, because a lot of those changes come through experiences.
I'm a 25 year old woman who people think of as relatively stable, as pragmatic, logical, and so on. I have been that way in all of my previous relationships (3 serious ones). I never EVER thought I was the kind of person to consider a long distance relationship with someone I'd only met once, or the kind of person who would want to constantly be around the person I was dating, or the kind of person who would live with someone I was dating. But then I fell in love with my current boyfriend, and it all changed almost overnight.
As for the rest of your list, some of those will indeed make it more difficult to meet and get to know women in general. That doesn't mean you can't meet women and get to know women... but it does mean that it will be more difficult for you than for many other guys. So you have two options: 1) accept that it will be more tough going, brace yourself for lots and lots of rejection before you find a good one, and start looking, or 2) work on a few things like conversation and sensitivity (or tact, at the very least), brace yourself for lots of rejection before you find a good one, and start looking.
Not all women need over-the-top romance or white lies about looking good in an outfit. Generally speaking, the ones who need those things are going to be higher-maintenance and you'll probably want to avoid them anyway. Almost all women require some gestures of appreciation every so often (even if/especially if they are small and thoughtful), and almost all women appreciate at least a little tact. For example, "How do I look in this outfit?" (when a dress makes her look flat-chested) could be answered many different ways. Saying "You're flat chested" is only going to fly with a very few women... saying "That dress makes you look flat chested" will fly with a few more, but saying "I think there are other dresses that show off your gorgeous curves better" will probably go over pretty well with most women. (If you can't tell, the difference is that you're making it clear that it's the article of clothing at fault, not the woman.)
Anyway, good luck. I saw some earlier recommendations that mentioned joining clubs and such where you have interests. This will be a much better idea for you than trying to randomly approach people at a bar or coffee shop.
posted by etherealclarity at 9:54 AM on December 29, 2008
Guess what? You don't just get a relationship no strings attached where you don't have to WORK a little for it. Partners need to feel appreciated, to know their partner cares, to know their point of view is respected and considered.
But that's advanced relationship advice. As a beginner, you just need to work on FRIENDSHIP with women first. Learn to see them as people, just like your guy friends.
If you don't have any friends that are girls already, try to use your guy friends who seem to have girl friends. Hang out with them a lot. Go to their parties that girls will be at. Make friends. NEVER say no to an opportunity to socialize with anyone- you never know who (guy or girl) might introduce you to a nice girl (and if you say no more than once to someone's invitations, they will stop inviting you- so always jump at social opportunities if you don't get them often). Build your current relationships. Throw parties. Join classes or clubs or groups in things you are interested in, and invite people out for coffee or lunch afterwards. PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE your social relationships... even ones with guys can lead to girls.
Ok, so the goal of the above is to make at least one good friend that is a girl. Don't even try or think or worry about the sex/romantic relationship part yet. Befriend a girl who you DON'T intend to get romantically involved with. Try to become intimate with her, in a strictly FRIENDLY way. By this I mean, get beyond the surface. Try to discover her inner life and secrets... to do this you're going to have to open up and reveal some of yours. How's your relationship with your very best guy friend? Try to find a girl who you can get that comfortable with.
Once you have a good friend that's a girl, who you hang out with at least once a month and whom you feel comfortable with, start trying to go to her parties and social outings to meet other girls. Your comfortable relationship with your first girl friend will be a testimonial to the other girls - "Hey, this guy's not a creep or loser, Sally likes him! He must be alright. Or at least fun."
So really, it just takes one solid FRIENDSHIP with a lady to open you up to a whole pool of ladies. Ask her for advice. Ask her where you could stand to improve, and have her help you. But remember, all relationships are give and take- she's not going to help you unless you are offering her a solid friendship in return (this means comforting her when she's down, helping her move, going to events with her she doesn't want to go to alone; things you might not necessarily be comfortable with but that she would appreciate).
Once you have a good girl friend that you're not trying to bed, suddenly women won't seem so mysterious anymore.
Now... once you have a pool of available ladies through your girl friend and you want to start working on them, here's what you do.
Never close yourself off to anyone. Give everyone a chance, no matter how ugly or whatever... beauty is relative, and I'd say my looks can vary from below average to very attractive depending on how much effort I put into it. Don't write someone off just because they have a bad hair or skin day or are wearing frumpy clothes (how would you like it if they did that to you?). And even if you're not romantically attracted to a girl, if you befriend her she'll become your ally and help set you up with other ladies... or maybe you'll even change your mind after you get to know her better.
(And here's a tacky piece of advice- it's easier to befriend unattractive ladies. And if they're into you even if you're not into them, that automatically makes you more attractive to ever other lady around- "Jane is obsessed with this guy, he must be something special!" Of course please try to consider everyone's feelings and be nice and don't lead anyone on who you know you will never want to hook up with. Just be friends. And maybe you'll learn that personalities can be just as attractive or even moreso than looks...)
If you've hung out with a potential lady in social group setting a few times and she seems to like you alright (or at least not hate you), ask her out for lunch or coffee... something casual. Pay attention to her body language to get an idea if she's interested in you. If her body is leaning away and she keeps glancing around and not looking at you, she's not especially interested (yet).
Ask about her. Try to relate what she's telling you to things you do in your life to keep the conversation going. But remember, most people are really interested in themselves, and if you appeal to that conversation is easier. Try not to get bogged down in self-destructive thoughts. Distract yourself if you start becoming self-conscious. Easy confidence is the sexiest... and even nerds can get that way when they start talking about geeky stuff (just carefully note her reactions to your conversation to make sure you're not boring her- if she looks bored, try to engage her by asking a question.)
That's a good start, we can get into more advanced relationship advice once you actually get into a relationship. :P
One other thing- here's a unspoken rule that no one likes to admit but is totally true:
You can't really date outside your league, looks-wise. Be honest with yourself- how attractive are you? Go for girls at a similar level of attractiveness. Sad but true. Yes, ugly or fat men can date beautiful women, but they have to have something special to compensate for the attractiveness disparity- like a really nice personality, generosity and empathy, humor, a sense of adventure, social standing, power, or sadly, lots and lots of money (but you don't want a beautiful woman who's only interested in your money, do you? That's a shallow road to go down, and will ultimately make both of you unhappy.)
This whole process of making friends that are girls and getting comfortable with them will take you a while- probably at least a year or so. Don't get discouraged. You're behind socially, and have some catching up to do.
Hope this helps. Sorry I am unable to be more concise! :P
(P.S. I am a woman in a happy 9 year relationship.)
posted by thejrae at 2:22 PM on December 29, 2008 [4 favorites]
But that's advanced relationship advice. As a beginner, you just need to work on FRIENDSHIP with women first. Learn to see them as people, just like your guy friends.
If you don't have any friends that are girls already, try to use your guy friends who seem to have girl friends. Hang out with them a lot. Go to their parties that girls will be at. Make friends. NEVER say no to an opportunity to socialize with anyone- you never know who (guy or girl) might introduce you to a nice girl (and if you say no more than once to someone's invitations, they will stop inviting you- so always jump at social opportunities if you don't get them often). Build your current relationships. Throw parties. Join classes or clubs or groups in things you are interested in, and invite people out for coffee or lunch afterwards. PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE your social relationships... even ones with guys can lead to girls.
Ok, so the goal of the above is to make at least one good friend that is a girl. Don't even try or think or worry about the sex/romantic relationship part yet. Befriend a girl who you DON'T intend to get romantically involved with. Try to become intimate with her, in a strictly FRIENDLY way. By this I mean, get beyond the surface. Try to discover her inner life and secrets... to do this you're going to have to open up and reveal some of yours. How's your relationship with your very best guy friend? Try to find a girl who you can get that comfortable with.
Once you have a good friend that's a girl, who you hang out with at least once a month and whom you feel comfortable with, start trying to go to her parties and social outings to meet other girls. Your comfortable relationship with your first girl friend will be a testimonial to the other girls - "Hey, this guy's not a creep or loser, Sally likes him! He must be alright. Or at least fun."
So really, it just takes one solid FRIENDSHIP with a lady to open you up to a whole pool of ladies. Ask her for advice. Ask her where you could stand to improve, and have her help you. But remember, all relationships are give and take- she's not going to help you unless you are offering her a solid friendship in return (this means comforting her when she's down, helping her move, going to events with her she doesn't want to go to alone; things you might not necessarily be comfortable with but that she would appreciate).
Once you have a good girl friend that you're not trying to bed, suddenly women won't seem so mysterious anymore.
Now... once you have a pool of available ladies through your girl friend and you want to start working on them, here's what you do.
Never close yourself off to anyone. Give everyone a chance, no matter how ugly or whatever... beauty is relative, and I'd say my looks can vary from below average to very attractive depending on how much effort I put into it. Don't write someone off just because they have a bad hair or skin day or are wearing frumpy clothes (how would you like it if they did that to you?). And even if you're not romantically attracted to a girl, if you befriend her she'll become your ally and help set you up with other ladies... or maybe you'll even change your mind after you get to know her better.
(And here's a tacky piece of advice- it's easier to befriend unattractive ladies. And if they're into you even if you're not into them, that automatically makes you more attractive to ever other lady around- "Jane is obsessed with this guy, he must be something special!" Of course please try to consider everyone's feelings and be nice and don't lead anyone on who you know you will never want to hook up with. Just be friends. And maybe you'll learn that personalities can be just as attractive or even moreso than looks...)
If you've hung out with a potential lady in social group setting a few times and she seems to like you alright (or at least not hate you), ask her out for lunch or coffee... something casual. Pay attention to her body language to get an idea if she's interested in you. If her body is leaning away and she keeps glancing around and not looking at you, she's not especially interested (yet).
Ask about her. Try to relate what she's telling you to things you do in your life to keep the conversation going. But remember, most people are really interested in themselves, and if you appeal to that conversation is easier. Try not to get bogged down in self-destructive thoughts. Distract yourself if you start becoming self-conscious. Easy confidence is the sexiest... and even nerds can get that way when they start talking about geeky stuff (just carefully note her reactions to your conversation to make sure you're not boring her- if she looks bored, try to engage her by asking a question.)
That's a good start, we can get into more advanced relationship advice once you actually get into a relationship. :P
One other thing- here's a unspoken rule that no one likes to admit but is totally true:
You can't really date outside your league, looks-wise. Be honest with yourself- how attractive are you? Go for girls at a similar level of attractiveness. Sad but true. Yes, ugly or fat men can date beautiful women, but they have to have something special to compensate for the attractiveness disparity- like a really nice personality, generosity and empathy, humor, a sense of adventure, social standing, power, or sadly, lots and lots of money (but you don't want a beautiful woman who's only interested in your money, do you? That's a shallow road to go down, and will ultimately make both of you unhappy.)
This whole process of making friends that are girls and getting comfortable with them will take you a while- probably at least a year or so. Don't get discouraged. You're behind socially, and have some catching up to do.
Hope this helps. Sorry I am unable to be more concise! :P
(P.S. I am a woman in a happy 9 year relationship.)
posted by thejrae at 2:22 PM on December 29, 2008 [4 favorites]
"This is a dumb worldview"
Who the hell do you think you are to say that? That is just so rude.
It's a duality that makes women such delightful(ly frustrating) creatures.
I have no idea what got people's panties all in a bunch about this statement, I thought it was sweet. Is that some sort of crime that someone would admit to being sometimes baffled by the opposite sex? I rather like a man to be delightfully frustrated with me. In fact, I like to drive a man *to insanity* with love for me. But that's just me, heh.
To the OP:
You said yourself that you are shallow. This is something you might want to examine, since being judgmental of others is one sign of a low self-esteem. If you truly do want a relationship, you will have to re-evaluate a lot of the above and make some changes.
People don't want to be around other people who seem disinterested in them, and your post made me think that you just aren't ready to feel all romantically in love(and it shows), and that's fine. When and if you ever do find someone you like and eventually love, you might find that you *want* to do goofy, romantic things for them and open up your heart. You might want to spoil them silly, which wouldn't be materialistic or contrived at all, merely you putting your money where your mouth is.
Love yourself first, and it will all work out.
posted by Grlnxtdr at 4:04 PM on December 29, 2008
No men - that is, none, not any, not even one single guy - daydream about they day they can marry Ms. Right (who is ugly but has a great personality) on a starlight night on a warm beach surrounded by puppies and kittens frolicking in the sand. You really sound like a typical guy in most respects, Anon.
But I have a question for you.
Today, while doing some after Christmas sale shopping, I noticed lots of husbands/boyfriends in Pottery Barn and Crate and Barrel. Some of them, like my husband, found a place to sit down in the store and check email or whatever while their SO's looked around. Others were wandering around looking bored, and one poor guy looked like he wanted someone to shoot him if he had to look at another throw pillow. My question is, "Why don't these stores provide a little area with some chairs and ESPN for the guys to hang out?"
No wait, wrong question - here goes: "Why do you think those guys were there?" Really - why do they put up with doing stuff they clearly don't enjoy? (Alternatively, why do I caddy for my husband when I have zero interest in golf?) Are they all trapped, unhappy, despairing that they could be doing fun stuff if only they weren't tied to the old ball and chain? Or is there something else?
As to where do you go from here:
- Don't let your quality #8 draw you to getting seriously involved with someone you do not enjoy spending time with.
- Don't be adverse to getting seriously involved with someone you DO enjoy being around and who has compatible values.
- Realize that your perspective on everything else may change if you do.
Now go throw caution to the wind and try, try again. Good luck Anon! I'm rooting for ya.
posted by txvtchick at 7:33 PM on December 29, 2008
But I have a question for you.
Today, while doing some after Christmas sale shopping, I noticed lots of husbands/boyfriends in Pottery Barn and Crate and Barrel. Some of them, like my husband, found a place to sit down in the store and check email or whatever while their SO's looked around. Others were wandering around looking bored, and one poor guy looked like he wanted someone to shoot him if he had to look at another throw pillow. My question is, "Why don't these stores provide a little area with some chairs and ESPN for the guys to hang out?"
No wait, wrong question - here goes: "Why do you think those guys were there?" Really - why do they put up with doing stuff they clearly don't enjoy? (Alternatively, why do I caddy for my husband when I have zero interest in golf?) Are they all trapped, unhappy, despairing that they could be doing fun stuff if only they weren't tied to the old ball and chain? Or is there something else?
As to where do you go from here:
- Don't let your quality #8 draw you to getting seriously involved with someone you do not enjoy spending time with.
- Don't be adverse to getting seriously involved with someone you DO enjoy being around and who has compatible values.
- Realize that your perspective on everything else may change if you do.
Now go throw caution to the wind and try, try again. Good luck Anon! I'm rooting for ya.
posted by txvtchick at 7:33 PM on December 29, 2008
I read this question to Mr. Goofyfoot, who could have written many parts of it at your age. He could have written a few parts at 28, or 30, before his loneliness made him get out of his head and seek human companionship. He did this even tho by then, he'd figured he'd just remain outside that part of life for the rest of his days.
He wasn't concerned about the attractiveness of potential partners, or about relative earnings, but his anxieties were akin to yours in that he didn't think himself able to engage. He didn't have the social skills, he says. And he got just further and further alone, the longer he put off trying.
Mr. Goofyfoot says what you need to do is to have sex, and demystify that aspect of your anxieties. Or, "Son, you need to get laid and get yourself some perspective."
Yeah, it's not that simple, but it sort of is that simple. How do you do that? You start by engaging on purely platonic levels with every woman you know. thejrae's post above makes a lot of sense here: never close yourself off to anyone. You sound like a person who lives inside his head more than is comfortable for you, so the corrective is to give existing with other people a try. Maybe on alternating days, just for a start. Don't forget: you can always be alone at home. Your default of solitude is safe, and it sounds as tho you still find comfort in that safety. But if I'm not as blunt as my partner in giving advice, he's got a point. You need perspective, you're not getting it by being celibate, and you're giving yourself tons of reasons not to get involved with women by anticipating what she'll expect of you. My word, of all the strange and trivial things, anticipating what you'll say if a person asks you what you think of what she's wearing?! If that's a stumbling block, here's your answer to any inquiry of this type: You look wonderful. Now let's go out and have fun.
Mr. Goofyfoot further says: take a dancing class. They're overwhelming female, and you're learning a social skill. Also if a woman asks you out, say yes.
posted by goofyfoot at 1:03 AM on December 31, 2008
He wasn't concerned about the attractiveness of potential partners, or about relative earnings, but his anxieties were akin to yours in that he didn't think himself able to engage. He didn't have the social skills, he says. And he got just further and further alone, the longer he put off trying.
Mr. Goofyfoot says what you need to do is to have sex, and demystify that aspect of your anxieties. Or, "Son, you need to get laid and get yourself some perspective."
Yeah, it's not that simple, but it sort of is that simple. How do you do that? You start by engaging on purely platonic levels with every woman you know. thejrae's post above makes a lot of sense here: never close yourself off to anyone. You sound like a person who lives inside his head more than is comfortable for you, so the corrective is to give existing with other people a try. Maybe on alternating days, just for a start. Don't forget: you can always be alone at home. Your default of solitude is safe, and it sounds as tho you still find comfort in that safety. But if I'm not as blunt as my partner in giving advice, he's got a point. You need perspective, you're not getting it by being celibate, and you're giving yourself tons of reasons not to get involved with women by anticipating what she'll expect of you. My word, of all the strange and trivial things, anticipating what you'll say if a person asks you what you think of what she's wearing?! If that's a stumbling block, here's your answer to any inquiry of this type: You look wonderful. Now let's go out and have fun.
Mr. Goofyfoot further says: take a dancing class. They're overwhelming female, and you're learning a social skill. Also if a woman asks you out, say yes.
posted by goofyfoot at 1:03 AM on December 31, 2008
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Maisie Jay at 7:21 PM on December 28, 2008