No More Sassy Ladies
November 16, 2008 8:09 PM Subscribe
I think I may be the male version of women who keep dating jerks.
I've noticed a pattern in me. I'm attracted to girls who are combination of sassy, neurotic, and bossy. The origins probably have something to do with my mom being like that. However, there's a functional reason too, perhaps, in that I find myself more stimulated around those girls. They're more likely to speak up when there's silence and they're easier for me to make jokes with. I also find that I have somewhat of a debating style of conversation, and a lot of my conversations are extended point-counterpoints.
However, ultimately, when I get into a relationship with these sassy girls, I get turned off by their assertiveness. I start to feel insecure, and I start to yearn for someone more supportive. I find that they don't go with the flow as well, and that coming to easy agreement seems like a struggle that also exacerbates my insecurities.
I've noticed this pattern over the years. Girls who aren't like that do show interest in me, but then I find myself bored and understimulated around them.
I find this similar, perhaps, to women who can't get out of a cycle of dating "bad boys." Perhaps because the "good boys" seem so dull.
How have people navigated through harmful dating patterns? Should you just force yourself to try dating other types? (or is using others as an experiment a little immoral?) Or maybe there's something more specific that I'm not getting about being in a relationship with non-sassy types.
I've noticed a pattern in me. I'm attracted to girls who are combination of sassy, neurotic, and bossy. The origins probably have something to do with my mom being like that. However, there's a functional reason too, perhaps, in that I find myself more stimulated around those girls. They're more likely to speak up when there's silence and they're easier for me to make jokes with. I also find that I have somewhat of a debating style of conversation, and a lot of my conversations are extended point-counterpoints.
However, ultimately, when I get into a relationship with these sassy girls, I get turned off by their assertiveness. I start to feel insecure, and I start to yearn for someone more supportive. I find that they don't go with the flow as well, and that coming to easy agreement seems like a struggle that also exacerbates my insecurities.
I've noticed this pattern over the years. Girls who aren't like that do show interest in me, but then I find myself bored and understimulated around them.
I find this similar, perhaps, to women who can't get out of a cycle of dating "bad boys." Perhaps because the "good boys" seem so dull.
How have people navigated through harmful dating patterns? Should you just force yourself to try dating other types? (or is using others as an experiment a little immoral?) Or maybe there's something more specific that I'm not getting about being in a relationship with non-sassy types.
I find this similar, perhaps, to women who can't get out of a cycle of dating "bad boys." Perhaps because the "good boys" seem so dull.
I think this is actually a whole 'nother kettle of fish. You might be dating bossy chicks, but you're not dating bad girls--the "bad" part usually implies some sort of emotional abuse, at least. You seem to be talking more about friendly bickering/banter. Completely different story.
I'd work on my insecurities while single for awhile. Your self esteem shouldn't crumble just because you're with someone who challenges you.
You could also try looking for girls who are sassy, perhaps bossy, but not neurotic. Or at least sassy girls with some sense of empathy.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:26 PM on November 16, 2008
I think this is actually a whole 'nother kettle of fish. You might be dating bossy chicks, but you're not dating bad girls--the "bad" part usually implies some sort of emotional abuse, at least. You seem to be talking more about friendly bickering/banter. Completely different story.
I'd work on my insecurities while single for awhile. Your self esteem shouldn't crumble just because you're with someone who challenges you.
You could also try looking for girls who are sassy, perhaps bossy, but not neurotic. Or at least sassy girls with some sense of empathy.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:26 PM on November 16, 2008
Response by poster: How does someone "work on their insecurities?" I've never heard of a successful strategy that didn't involve CBT and/or meds.
I also say this, kind of with irritation, because I tried to force myself to become more secure in order to enable myself to date one of these sassy girls. Instead, I found myself in a stockholm syndrome kind of loop, beating myself up just to fit into some girl's sense of how I should be.
I decided, thereafter, to let my insecurities be.
posted by pauldonato at 8:35 PM on November 16, 2008
I also say this, kind of with irritation, because I tried to force myself to become more secure in order to enable myself to date one of these sassy girls. Instead, I found myself in a stockholm syndrome kind of loop, beating myself up just to fit into some girl's sense of how I should be.
I decided, thereafter, to let my insecurities be.
posted by pauldonato at 8:35 PM on November 16, 2008
My solution was to just pick the very best sassy, bossy girl and build a life...
I think when you scratch the surface, we're all neurotic.
posted by bonobothegreat at 8:36 PM on November 16, 2008 [3 favorites]
I think when you scratch the surface, we're all neurotic.
posted by bonobothegreat at 8:36 PM on November 16, 2008 [3 favorites]
However, ultimately, when I get into a relationship with these sassy girls, I get turned off by their assertiveness. I start to feel insecure, and I start to yearn for someone more supportive. I find that they don't go with the flow as well, and that coming to easy agreement seems like a struggle that also exacerbates my insecurities.
Can you explain this a little better? On the one hand, "get turned off by their assertiveness...yearn for someone more supportive" sounds like you may have some issues with gender stereotypes. On the other hand, it's possible you just ran into some mean girls who really just want their way at all costs. In any event, it would seem more fruitful to think about what happened in each particular relationship rather than to blame it all on female assertiveness in general.
posted by footnote at 8:41 PM on November 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
Can you explain this a little better? On the one hand, "get turned off by their assertiveness...yearn for someone more supportive" sounds like you may have some issues with gender stereotypes. On the other hand, it's possible you just ran into some mean girls who really just want their way at all costs. In any event, it would seem more fruitful to think about what happened in each particular relationship rather than to blame it all on female assertiveness in general.
posted by footnote at 8:41 PM on November 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks though, PhoBWanKenobi. I think I may be perhaps, unnecessarily lumping variables together. There have to be sassy girls who have empathy too.
posted by pauldonato at 8:41 PM on November 16, 2008
posted by pauldonato at 8:41 PM on November 16, 2008
As a sassy (empathetic) girl, I am just curious as to whether or not these arguments get violently out of hand and end in emotional name-calling, etc., or if they are just disagreements? My boyfriend and I sometimes disagree, but we do not get at each others throats.
I guess my question is: are you looking for someone who defers to you, or simply someone who doesn't punch you in the face and call you an idiot over what restaurant you're going to?
posted by aliceinreality at 8:51 PM on November 16, 2008
I guess my question is: are you looking for someone who defers to you, or simply someone who doesn't punch you in the face and call you an idiot over what restaurant you're going to?
posted by aliceinreality at 8:51 PM on November 16, 2008
Are they doing anything else bad, like cheating or being emotionally abusive or manipulatively threatening the security of the relationship? If not, the problem isn't your selection, its dealing with the feelings you have.
If they are doing the bad things above, just dump 'em.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:01 PM on November 16, 2008
If they are doing the bad things above, just dump 'em.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:01 PM on November 16, 2008
because I tried to force myself to become more secure in order to enable myself to date one of these sassy girls. Instead, I found myself in a stockholm syndrome kind of loop, beating myself up just to fit into some girl's sense of how I should be.
After reading this follow-up comment, I think your problem is that you just ran into one bad apple. No matter what kind of personality characteristics your partner has, your relationship should never make you feel like you're trying to fit into somebody's "sense of how [you] should be."
If you really like to debate and be intellecutally stimulated, you should definitely not go out and date girls who can't provide that kind of conversation. After all, most of your relationship will be made by talking. You may have to learn (together) how to dial down the argumentation as appropriate, but that's much more doable than trying to have a relationship with someone who you can't talk to.
posted by footnote at 9:03 PM on November 16, 2008
After reading this follow-up comment, I think your problem is that you just ran into one bad apple. No matter what kind of personality characteristics your partner has, your relationship should never make you feel like you're trying to fit into somebody's "sense of how [you] should be."
If you really like to debate and be intellecutally stimulated, you should definitely not go out and date girls who can't provide that kind of conversation. After all, most of your relationship will be made by talking. You may have to learn (together) how to dial down the argumentation as appropriate, but that's much more doable than trying to have a relationship with someone who you can't talk to.
posted by footnote at 9:03 PM on November 16, 2008
Response by poster: It's more like two bad apples. I really identify with this poster recently who had a friend that makes him feel like a jerk for not putting his feelings aside for her.
posted by pauldonato at 9:14 PM on November 16, 2008
posted by pauldonato at 9:14 PM on November 16, 2008
Perhaps you need to find a girl who is willing to call off the argument when it gets to be too much? So, for instance, in one of those point-counterpoint exchanges, if it starts to get you upset and you want to call it off and move on, you can say that and she will. Some girls might not be able to let it drop; some will. You need to recognize when these exchanges start to bother you and tell her so. She needs to have enough respect for your feelings to do so, and enough maturity to really let. it. go. This all assumes that the main problem you have is with arguing, but I feel like it might be applicable in other areas as well. You need an assertive girl who will 'fight back', it sounds like, but who also values your relationship more than winning.
posted by MadamM at 9:32 PM on November 16, 2008
posted by MadamM at 9:32 PM on November 16, 2008
Response by poster: Well, I can already get a sense of the pattern of the hive mind's response. It seems the general gist is, don't give up on these "sassy" girls so quickly.
Nobody has suggested I force myself to explore different types of girls, which is interesting. And that makes sense. I can probably learn to do a better job sifting the bad sassy girls from the good ones, rather than re-wire my turn-ons and turn-offs.
posted by pauldonato at 9:43 PM on November 16, 2008
Nobody has suggested I force myself to explore different types of girls, which is interesting. And that makes sense. I can probably learn to do a better job sifting the bad sassy girls from the good ones, rather than re-wire my turn-ons and turn-offs.
posted by pauldonato at 9:43 PM on November 16, 2008
Best answer: Paul, I am the girl you date. I'm sorry things had to end this way, but I've had so much experience with your type that I just can't go on doing this to myself and to you. It's been a toxic cycle for both of us, frankly, and we need to end it right now. But before our break up, let me offer a few helpful words.
Yes, you're a little conflicted about gender, but you're leagues better than a Macho Macho Man. What you want is a girl who whips you around, figuratively. You're attracted to strong women because you enjoy the ego boost of catching the fancy of a no-nonsense, confident woman. I knew why you singled me out at the bar: you felt special when you realized you could maybe soften my sharp tongue. And as a pretty damn opinionated girl, I was pleased that you were attracted to my sassiness rather than intimidated. We had some fun times, Paul.
But that glee wore off quickly, didn't it? Suddenly I was shrewish, and your deference annoyed me. See, I just wish you'd stand up for yourself, but you tried to assuage my prickly demeanor by being nice. I don't do well with that kind of niceness, and I slowly lose respect for this perceived lack of vitality on your part, and we grow distant, or antagonizing.
Unfortunately, nice girls don't do it for you because their attention is too easily captured. You want the attention of someone who's critical of their peers, wary and judging, so you can feel unique when they let their guard down for you.
It's fine to like your women sassy (I would be utterly, utterly alone if everyone liked Sweet Girls), but you've got to examine why you like these women in the first place. Clearly after the high of this aforementioned ego-boost wears off, you find yourself left with women who, in your rational opinion, are grating, bossy, egocentric and hyper-opinionated. Wean yourself off of these women, because you're the type of guy who actually wants more emotionally open, verbally affectionate, and supportive partners. That's fine. Love isn't about capturing prizes, especially not prizes you don't really want. Swallow your vainglorious addiction for that ego boost and find a girl with spunk who doesn't mow you over.
Look, I'm sorry we had to break up, but it's just the right thing to do. It's not you, and it's not me, it's both of us. I hope you understand.
posted by zoomorphic at 9:46 PM on November 16, 2008 [31 favorites]
Yes, you're a little conflicted about gender, but you're leagues better than a Macho Macho Man. What you want is a girl who whips you around, figuratively. You're attracted to strong women because you enjoy the ego boost of catching the fancy of a no-nonsense, confident woman. I knew why you singled me out at the bar: you felt special when you realized you could maybe soften my sharp tongue. And as a pretty damn opinionated girl, I was pleased that you were attracted to my sassiness rather than intimidated. We had some fun times, Paul.
But that glee wore off quickly, didn't it? Suddenly I was shrewish, and your deference annoyed me. See, I just wish you'd stand up for yourself, but you tried to assuage my prickly demeanor by being nice. I don't do well with that kind of niceness, and I slowly lose respect for this perceived lack of vitality on your part, and we grow distant, or antagonizing.
Unfortunately, nice girls don't do it for you because their attention is too easily captured. You want the attention of someone who's critical of their peers, wary and judging, so you can feel unique when they let their guard down for you.
It's fine to like your women sassy (I would be utterly, utterly alone if everyone liked Sweet Girls), but you've got to examine why you like these women in the first place. Clearly after the high of this aforementioned ego-boost wears off, you find yourself left with women who, in your rational opinion, are grating, bossy, egocentric and hyper-opinionated. Wean yourself off of these women, because you're the type of guy who actually wants more emotionally open, verbally affectionate, and supportive partners. That's fine. Love isn't about capturing prizes, especially not prizes you don't really want. Swallow your vainglorious addiction for that ego boost and find a girl with spunk who doesn't mow you over.
Look, I'm sorry we had to break up, but it's just the right thing to do. It's not you, and it's not me, it's both of us. I hope you understand.
posted by zoomorphic at 9:46 PM on November 16, 2008 [31 favorites]
Response by poster: Wow, that's pretty awesome zoomorphic. You had me worried for a good bit.
Hmm, yeah, that's very good insight into my psyche, thanks for chiming in. I think I'm very much attracted to the challenge, and it does boost my ego to think I have, at my side, this hoighty toighty girl that chose me. It's sort of like Woody Allen's, "I'd never join a club that would allow a person like me to become a member."
I think I sometimes unfortunately have the same problem when I pick my guy friends too. I've tended to get friends who are very critical of others (or critical in general). And when I show that I'm not afraid of them, it's disarming. At the same time, eventually, I start to feel under their cross-hairs too, and feel unfairly judged.
posted by pauldonato at 9:58 PM on November 16, 2008
Hmm, yeah, that's very good insight into my psyche, thanks for chiming in. I think I'm very much attracted to the challenge, and it does boost my ego to think I have, at my side, this hoighty toighty girl that chose me. It's sort of like Woody Allen's, "I'd never join a club that would allow a person like me to become a member."
I think I sometimes unfortunately have the same problem when I pick my guy friends too. I've tended to get friends who are very critical of others (or critical in general). And when I show that I'm not afraid of them, it's disarming. At the same time, eventually, I start to feel under their cross-hairs too, and feel unfairly judged.
posted by pauldonato at 9:58 PM on November 16, 2008
There is a way to have your cake and eat it too.
The answer is to date strong women, but for you to be the dominant partner in the relationship. It's not impossible to learn the skills required for you to assert yourself in that role as they're mainly to do with self-belief and a big dollop of humour.
I may be opening a can of gender-studies worms here, but if I've lost count of the number of strong, sassy women who have told me that they're "looking for a challenge" or "a man who doesn't take my shit" or "a man who knows what he wants out of life and doesn't let me get in the way".
It's not necessarily that women want "bad boys" - ie guys who will treat them like dog doo-doo - but they do want a man who is sure of himself, comfortable in his own skin and not swayed out of his purpose by a woman. (Sometimes the genuinely bad boys give off this impression, plus they're fascinatingly dangerous to boot, but that's not to say you have to act like an arsehole to be dominant in a relationship.)
One little hint (in my experience) is that strong, assertive, confident women can be the fastest to fall under the spell of even just a little bit of sass-back and dominance from a guy, a) because they appreciate a bit of a challenge themselves; and b) because they're not used to getting it very often, so it appears to be more "rare" and thus more interesting.
posted by skylar at 11:57 PM on November 16, 2008 [4 favorites]
The answer is to date strong women, but for you to be the dominant partner in the relationship. It's not impossible to learn the skills required for you to assert yourself in that role as they're mainly to do with self-belief and a big dollop of humour.
I may be opening a can of gender-studies worms here, but if I've lost count of the number of strong, sassy women who have told me that they're "looking for a challenge" or "a man who doesn't take my shit" or "a man who knows what he wants out of life and doesn't let me get in the way".
It's not necessarily that women want "bad boys" - ie guys who will treat them like dog doo-doo - but they do want a man who is sure of himself, comfortable in his own skin and not swayed out of his purpose by a woman. (Sometimes the genuinely bad boys give off this impression, plus they're fascinatingly dangerous to boot, but that's not to say you have to act like an arsehole to be dominant in a relationship.)
One little hint (in my experience) is that strong, assertive, confident women can be the fastest to fall under the spell of even just a little bit of sass-back and dominance from a guy, a) because they appreciate a bit of a challenge themselves; and b) because they're not used to getting it very often, so it appears to be more "rare" and thus more interesting.
posted by skylar at 11:57 PM on November 16, 2008 [4 favorites]
I had a friend who was more than "sassy". She was a bitch to everyone around her, except me. The relationship worked very well for me and I assume it worked well for her. I rarely wandered into a conflict with her and she almost never provoked an argument with me. I'm saying two things. First find a woman that loves you and has enough sense not start shit with you. Once you've found her don't start shit with her. Actually there's a third thing. If an argument starts don't let it's course be dictated by what type of roles you play rather than the actual source of the disagreement.
posted by rdr at 12:36 AM on November 17, 2008
posted by rdr at 12:36 AM on November 17, 2008
Best answer: It seems like there are three ways people deal with this. One way is to decide that they won't date people like that. They meet someone un-sassy but cute, feel a bit bored and dissatisfied, force themselves to stay with her, and then about ten years later, they love their kids and house and life so much that they say marrying her was a great decision even if they still feel bored and dissatisfied and get their kicks via skydiving or something. I know people who took this path, and though I couldn't do it. But for people attracted to truly abusive people, I think this is the standard recommendation -- consider attraction and chemistry to be danger signs, and instead be rational and objective when picking a partner.
Another option is to learn to recognize the bad stuff you're attracted to. For example, in that post you related to, it took commenters no time to say "She's the jerk, dude. She doesn't get to tell you how to feel." But it seemed like the OP (maybe?) fell for her "you should feel X" scam instead of saying, "ha ha, the Nigerian prince again." So, you could learn the various scams that you fall for, and then try to date sassy women while rejecting the scams ("you don't get to tell me how to feel"). This phase will probably be full of tons of relationship drama. But you might get lucky and find some woman who still comes off as sassy but has done enough personal growth that she responds well ("you're right, I'm sorry. Let's try this discussion again.")
Another way Option 2 can go is that you get better and better at detecting and rejecting the subtle games that mess with your mind, until eventually, the process gets almost-instantaneous. You can get to a point where you're annoyed by even tiny doses of it (like the facial expressions and posture you notice now as attractive might themselves begin to feel hyper-critical) and develop an aversion to women like that. At minimum, you'll develop mixed feelings, like "ooh, hot, but she reminds me of X and that terrible time of my life." Sounds like you might already be headed down this path.
A third option is, over the long term, to change what you want. Since you seem to be approaching this with a lot of thought and awareness, whatever path you take might lead to this third solution. The trick to taking this path is to do a lot of self-examination (what am I feeling? why am I feeling this way?) and stay away from examining others (e.g., don't get in a relationship with a dull woman and try to teach her to be sassy). Ask yourself why you like critical people. Why do you like that back-and-forth? What's that phase of insecurity and trying to appease about? Or go to therapy. You can do this approach in conjunction with either path above.
Oh, and also, there are lots of self-help books on this. One I've heard about a lot is this one by Harville Hendrix. His theory is that people go after people with a trait like one parent (so, in your case, sassy), and then try to "fix" the relationship to get what they wanted the first time around (e.g., to get her to be more supportive). He has some strategies to help couples, so maybe his workbook would help you with your next partner, whether she's sassy or not. Good luck!
posted by salvia at 1:18 AM on November 17, 2008 [5 favorites]
Another option is to learn to recognize the bad stuff you're attracted to. For example, in that post you related to, it took commenters no time to say "She's the jerk, dude. She doesn't get to tell you how to feel." But it seemed like the OP (maybe?) fell for her "you should feel X" scam instead of saying, "ha ha, the Nigerian prince again." So, you could learn the various scams that you fall for, and then try to date sassy women while rejecting the scams ("you don't get to tell me how to feel"). This phase will probably be full of tons of relationship drama. But you might get lucky and find some woman who still comes off as sassy but has done enough personal growth that she responds well ("you're right, I'm sorry. Let's try this discussion again.")
Another way Option 2 can go is that you get better and better at detecting and rejecting the subtle games that mess with your mind, until eventually, the process gets almost-instantaneous. You can get to a point where you're annoyed by even tiny doses of it (like the facial expressions and posture you notice now as attractive might themselves begin to feel hyper-critical) and develop an aversion to women like that. At minimum, you'll develop mixed feelings, like "ooh, hot, but she reminds me of X and that terrible time of my life." Sounds like you might already be headed down this path.
A third option is, over the long term, to change what you want. Since you seem to be approaching this with a lot of thought and awareness, whatever path you take might lead to this third solution. The trick to taking this path is to do a lot of self-examination (what am I feeling? why am I feeling this way?) and stay away from examining others (e.g., don't get in a relationship with a dull woman and try to teach her to be sassy). Ask yourself why you like critical people. Why do you like that back-and-forth? What's that phase of insecurity and trying to appease about? Or go to therapy. You can do this approach in conjunction with either path above.
Oh, and also, there are lots of self-help books on this. One I've heard about a lot is this one by Harville Hendrix. His theory is that people go after people with a trait like one parent (so, in your case, sassy), and then try to "fix" the relationship to get what they wanted the first time around (e.g., to get her to be more supportive). He has some strategies to help couples, so maybe his workbook would help you with your next partner, whether she's sassy or not. Good luck!
posted by salvia at 1:18 AM on November 17, 2008 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: That's a good overview salvia. I think I'm probably, unconsciously just going toward Option 2. I've decided to fully inspect my feelings when I approach people now, and I notice that in the past, I've tended to ignore those feelings. In the past, the passionate attraction would spike and catch my attention, forcing me to approach these types that I'm wired into liking. But nowadays, I seem to be both aroused, but also can hear red flags more clearly.
The context of this post is that I bumped into one of these problem girls last night, and it just sent my mind into a hurricane, and I guess I really wanted to make sure I never ever again ended up down that road with someone.
posted by pauldonato at 2:29 AM on November 17, 2008
The context of this post is that I bumped into one of these problem girls last night, and it just sent my mind into a hurricane, and I guess I really wanted to make sure I never ever again ended up down that road with someone.
posted by pauldonato at 2:29 AM on November 17, 2008
One little hint (in my experience) is that strong, assertive, confident women can be the fastest to fall under the spell of even just a little bit of sass-back and dominance from a guy, a) because they appreciate a bit of a challenge themselves; and b) because they're not used to getting it very often, so it appears to be more "rare" and thus more interesting.
Uh, this, basically. I like (make that, I really like) women who are smart, confident, and who kick ass and take names. Part of what I like is that first, most guys are total pussies and are intimidated by smart, sassy women, so there's no real competition; and second, that just like Skylar suggests, the comparatively novel experience of meeting an unintimidated, confident guy produces super hot results in bed.
But the point here is that the problem is not with the women in question -- the problem is with you. If you are following the pattern that Zoomorphic so neatly lays out, then you are doing this to yourself. You are the problem here. You know what you like (sassy women), and you even seem to know how to attract them and start a relationship. What you need to learn is how to become the sort of person who can have long and happy relationships with strong, sassy women, without turning into a total
Think about it this way: what is that strong, confident woman looking for? She's probably looking for a reasonably confident guy. Maybe she wants someone who will tie her to the bedposts, or maybe she wants a guy who is confident enough in his masculinity to be tied up himself. But either way, she's probably not looking for a totally bland "nice guy." She wants a guy who is nice, but who has the gumption to meet her as an equal, just like he did when they first met and he was attracted to her strength and confidence.
You are starting out great; you just need to find a way to maintain that kind of confidence and self-awareness.
posted by Forktine at 6:37 AM on November 17, 2008 [5 favorites]
Uh, this, basically. I like (make that, I really like) women who are smart, confident, and who kick ass and take names. Part of what I like is that first, most guys are total pussies and are intimidated by smart, sassy women, so there's no real competition; and second, that just like Skylar suggests, the comparatively novel experience of meeting an unintimidated, confident guy produces super hot results in bed.
But the point here is that the problem is not with the women in question -- the problem is with you. If you are following the pattern that Zoomorphic so neatly lays out, then you are doing this to yourself. You are the problem here. You know what you like (sassy women), and you even seem to know how to attract them and start a relationship. What you need to learn is how to become the sort of person who can have long and happy relationships with strong, sassy women, without turning into a total
Think about it this way: what is that strong, confident woman looking for? She's probably looking for a reasonably confident guy. Maybe she wants someone who will tie her to the bedposts, or maybe she wants a guy who is confident enough in his masculinity to be tied up himself. But either way, she's probably not looking for a totally bland "nice guy." She wants a guy who is nice, but who has the gumption to meet her as an equal, just like he did when they first met and he was attracted to her strength and confidence.
You are starting out great; you just need to find a way to maintain that kind of confidence and self-awareness.
posted by Forktine at 6:37 AM on November 17, 2008 [5 favorites]
sassy, neurotic, and bossy Sassy is bad? Try looking for the positive qualities that are close to the ones you dislike. Confident, self-assured, funny. Add kind and thoughtful, and you're probably safe. Neurotic? Look for someone who is self-aware, and working on their own issues. Given that hardly anybody is perfect, someone who looks for ways to improve and genuinely wants to have a positive, loving relationship, is a pretty good bet.
posted by theora55 at 7:15 AM on November 17, 2008
posted by theora55 at 7:15 AM on November 17, 2008
What you need to learn is how to become the sort of person who can have long and happy relationships with strong, sassy women.
Eh, Forktine usually you give great relationship advice, but I'm going to have to disagree here. Life is just far too short to try to change your personality for the sake of a relationship....and it never works in the end anyway.
posted by footnote at 7:26 AM on November 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
Eh, Forktine usually you give great relationship advice, but I'm going to have to disagree here. Life is just far too short to try to change your personality for the sake of a relationship....and it never works in the end anyway.
posted by footnote at 7:26 AM on November 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
The answer is to date strong women, but for you to be the dominant partner in the relationship. It's not impossible to learn the skills required for you to assert yourself in that role as they're mainly to do with self-belief and a big dollop of humour.
I may be opening a can of gender-studies worms here, but if I've lost count of the number of strong, sassy women who have told me that they're "looking for a challenge" or "a man who doesn't take my shit" or "a man who knows what he wants out of life and doesn't let me get in the way".
As a strong sassy woman, I'm going to disagree with this, mostly because (in my experience), men who aim to be the dominant partner often seem to underestimate their partners--they treat them dismissively. And, while I like to be challenged, it pisses me off more to be undervalued/appreciated/respected.
Look for a woman with whom you're about equal with. And who seems to feel the same about you. My SO and I joke that the great mystery of our relationship is that we'll never know who's smarter--we both think we might be, but we have our serious doubts. It leads to great, charged, exciting conversations as we both try to top one another. But both parties never doubt that, deep down, we both respect one another greatly. That respect is key.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:48 AM on November 17, 2008 [8 favorites]
I may be opening a can of gender-studies worms here, but if I've lost count of the number of strong, sassy women who have told me that they're "looking for a challenge" or "a man who doesn't take my shit" or "a man who knows what he wants out of life and doesn't let me get in the way".
As a strong sassy woman, I'm going to disagree with this, mostly because (in my experience), men who aim to be the dominant partner often seem to underestimate their partners--they treat them dismissively. And, while I like to be challenged, it pisses me off more to be undervalued/appreciated/respected.
Look for a woman with whom you're about equal with. And who seems to feel the same about you. My SO and I joke that the great mystery of our relationship is that we'll never know who's smarter--we both think we might be, but we have our serious doubts. It leads to great, charged, exciting conversations as we both try to top one another. But both parties never doubt that, deep down, we both respect one another greatly. That respect is key.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:48 AM on November 17, 2008 [8 favorites]
It's probably important to point out that the OP's tastes are more tailored than the simple archetype of a Strong, Confident Woman. He sounds like the guy who gravitates towards the cheekiest, thorniest girl in the group, and it's not panning out.
And yes, some bossy women want dudes they can boss around, and they typically align themselves with men who want just as badly to be bossed. Does that mean all strong women want a milquetoast lamb to nettle and aggravate? Of course not, because that sounds positively abysmal to me.
OP, you don't want to be bossed, and you don't want to do the bossing. That doesn't mean you have to resign yourself to the demure dollys of the world just because you get exhausted by girls who think sparring is a form of foreplay. It's 2008, and the earth abounds with women who are simultaneously self-assured and easy-going. Go forth, date multiple versions of that type; leave the thorny women to the thorny men (or the milquetoasts). You're doing everyone a favor by reevaluating your priorities, because my people are tired of discovering two months into dating your people that, oops, you wanted a little spoon, not a pistol.
posted by zoomorphic at 8:45 AM on November 17, 2008
And yes, some bossy women want dudes they can boss around, and they typically align themselves with men who want just as badly to be bossed. Does that mean all strong women want a milquetoast lamb to nettle and aggravate? Of course not, because that sounds positively abysmal to me.
OP, you don't want to be bossed, and you don't want to do the bossing. That doesn't mean you have to resign yourself to the demure dollys of the world just because you get exhausted by girls who think sparring is a form of foreplay. It's 2008, and the earth abounds with women who are simultaneously self-assured and easy-going. Go forth, date multiple versions of that type; leave the thorny women to the thorny men (or the milquetoasts). You're doing everyone a favor by reevaluating your priorities, because my people are tired of discovering two months into dating your people that, oops, you wanted a little spoon, not a pistol.
posted by zoomorphic at 8:45 AM on November 17, 2008
Best answer: "Oh my god, i can't stand it any more! I ask her where she wants to go to dinner, and she says she doesn't care, so we go to have Chinese, and then she doesn't eat very much, and I don't find out until we have a fight three weeks later about something else that she utterly hates Chinese but didn't want to 'be difficult'. When will I ever meet a woman who's... who's... well, more like a guy!"
<>
"Oh this is the most wonderful thing ever! She's so smart! She knows so much about so many things. She has an actual OPINION and isn't afraid to express it and doesn't back down if it's important to her. She tells me what she wants. She tells me when I do something stupid. We argued for three hours over whether or not Mick Taylor or Ron Wood were better guitarists for the Stones, agreed to disagree, and then went to bed where we had amazing sex. She LIKES having sex! She asks me what I want to do and how I want to be touched and will even SHOW me! I love how she sends me funny little text messages in the middle of the day, totally randomly, . This is the most amazing thing ever!"
<>
"Oh my god, women who like sex are just too much work. Why does she always have to argue with me about that noise the car makes? I mean, I know she's right and I also know that she actually can fix cars (because she rebuilt a 1977 Datsun when she was in high school) and I can't even change a tire without calling AAA, but still. And instead of agreeing on what to eat, she suggests that we both order what we want and make two stops for take out food. I mean, the two restaurants are across the street from each other and it's really not a big deal to stop in both places, but why can't she just eat what I'm eating? It's Chinese, everyone can find something they want to eat with Chinese food. And I wish she would stop asking me when I was going to go take the MCAT's and bringing me home brochures about going to get my MBA. I mean, I know I told her that my dream was to start my own business and that I want to go back to school, but, sheesh. And why does she always tiptoe in before she leaves for work to kiss me? I mean I act like I'm asleep and all but she's going to see me later that night. Why does she have to text me during the day? Can't we be apart for a little while?"
I have lived this too many times, and tried to change and modulate and whatever until I realized that I was who I was and that while we all could stand to learn and grow, I just hadn't met the right guy. The right guy would appreciate all of me. Yes, he was out there.
Women who are assertive and bossy and know what they want can also be nurturing and loving and affectionate. There's nothing they have to change, and there's nothing you have to change. You just don't really want what you think you want.
posted by micawber at 8:52 AM on November 17, 2008 [7 favorites]
<>
"Oh this is the most wonderful thing ever! She's so smart! She knows so much about so many things. She has an actual OPINION and isn't afraid to express it and doesn't back down if it's important to her. She tells me what she wants. She tells me when I do something stupid. We argued for three hours over whether or not Mick Taylor or Ron Wood were better guitarists for the Stones, agreed to disagree, and then went to bed where we had amazing sex. She LIKES having sex! She asks me what I want to do and how I want to be touched and will even SHOW me! I love how she sends me funny little text messages in the middle of the day, totally randomly, . This is the most amazing thing ever!"
<>
"Oh my god, women who like sex are just too much work. Why does she always have to argue with me about that noise the car makes? I mean, I know she's right and I also know that she actually can fix cars (because she rebuilt a 1977 Datsun when she was in high school) and I can't even change a tire without calling AAA, but still. And instead of agreeing on what to eat, she suggests that we both order what we want and make two stops for take out food. I mean, the two restaurants are across the street from each other and it's really not a big deal to stop in both places, but why can't she just eat what I'm eating? It's Chinese, everyone can find something they want to eat with Chinese food. And I wish she would stop asking me when I was going to go take the MCAT's and bringing me home brochures about going to get my MBA. I mean, I know I told her that my dream was to start my own business and that I want to go back to school, but, sheesh. And why does she always tiptoe in before she leaves for work to kiss me? I mean I act like I'm asleep and all but she's going to see me later that night. Why does she have to text me during the day? Can't we be apart for a little while?"
I have lived this too many times, and tried to change and modulate and whatever until I realized that I was who I was and that while we all could stand to learn and grow, I just hadn't met the right guy. The right guy would appreciate all of me. Yes, he was out there.
Women who are assertive and bossy and know what they want can also be nurturing and loving and affectionate. There's nothing they have to change, and there's nothing you have to change. You just don't really want what you think you want.
posted by micawber at 8:52 AM on November 17, 2008 [7 favorites]
Best answer: crap. above should say "enter miss X" in the first bracket and then "three weeks, months, years later" in the second bracket.
posted by micawber at 8:52 AM on November 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by micawber at 8:52 AM on November 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: micawber, that's very interesting. I think that gets close to problem here. I'm very much lured by what superficially seems interesting and stimulating, which is good for the conversation at the bar and some of the initial getting-to-know, but I hate what it evolves into.
posted by pauldonato at 9:25 AM on November 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by pauldonato at 9:25 AM on November 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: This is good. I think a recurring bit of advice I get is, "know what you really want." And I think maybe I'm asking the wrong questions by trying to ask "do I want a sassy type?" It's an over-simplification and a stereotype.
Instead, I'm guessing I should ask myself, "what do I want functionally to happen in a relationship?" And here is what it is.
I do not want to be bossed. And I don't want to boss/punish anybody. I don't have problems stating what I want to my partner, but I'm not going to do it via off-hand, sarcastic put-downs or whatever mind-control techniques are used to dominate my woman. i.e. I won't "put her in her place." And I want someone who is nice in general, not just non-bitchy to me. And I want to be stimulated by the interactions, and I want to be naturally turned-on by the person.
So yeah, I'll probably just sort through the sassy types and focus on what they do and how they treat me and others, and not focus on who I think they are.
posted by pauldonato at 9:43 AM on November 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
Instead, I'm guessing I should ask myself, "what do I want functionally to happen in a relationship?" And here is what it is.
I do not want to be bossed. And I don't want to boss/punish anybody. I don't have problems stating what I want to my partner, but I'm not going to do it via off-hand, sarcastic put-downs or whatever mind-control techniques are used to dominate my woman. i.e. I won't "put her in her place." And I want someone who is nice in general, not just non-bitchy to me. And I want to be stimulated by the interactions, and I want to be naturally turned-on by the person.
So yeah, I'll probably just sort through the sassy types and focus on what they do and how they treat me and others, and not focus on who I think they are.
posted by pauldonato at 9:43 AM on November 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
i'm sorry i haven't had a chance to read all of the responses but generally, it's not that the girls you're dating are sassy or assertive, it's that they're a**holes. stockholm syndrome? yikes. it should be a lot easier to find a civil, yet sassy, emotionally mature, yet assertive, woman than change who turns you on. good luck!
posted by smallstatic at 1:05 PM on November 17, 2008
posted by smallstatic at 1:05 PM on November 17, 2008
Eh, Forktine usually you give great relationship advice, but I'm going to have to disagree here. Life is just far too short to try to change your personality for the sake of a relationship....and it never works in the end anyway.
I guess my take on it was that what he is doing isn't working for him. Either he can change whom he is attracted to, or he can change how he deals with those people once he is dating them. I think it is a lot easier to change one's behaviors than one's preferences, but both are certainly options. Continuing to do exactly the same things will just produce the same results, and the OP doesn't sound excited about that.
But yes, you are right, changing one's personality is not easy nor is casually suggesting it good advice, and I hope that is not what I was doing.
posted by Forktine at 3:31 PM on November 17, 2008
I guess my take on it was that what he is doing isn't working for him. Either he can change whom he is attracted to, or he can change how he deals with those people once he is dating them. I think it is a lot easier to change one's behaviors than one's preferences, but both are certainly options. Continuing to do exactly the same things will just produce the same results, and the OP doesn't sound excited about that.
But yes, you are right, changing one's personality is not easy nor is casually suggesting it good advice, and I hope that is not what I was doing.
posted by Forktine at 3:31 PM on November 17, 2008
I do not want to be bossed. And I don't want to boss/punish anybody. I don't have problems stating what I want to my partner, but I'm not going to do it via off-hand, sarcastic put-downs or whatever mind-control techniques are used to dominate my woman. i.e. I won't "put her in her place." And I want someone who is nice in general, not just non-bitchy to me. And I want to be stimulated by the interactions, and I want to be naturally turned-on by the person.
So yeah, I'll probably just sort through the sassy types and focus on what they do and how they treat me and others, and not focus on who I think they are.
And this strikes me as a great approach that should produce much better results for you. You list of wants/don't-wants looks perfectly reasonable and normal, stuff that any normal and loving person would want for herself, too.
Good luck!
posted by Forktine at 3:37 PM on November 17, 2008
So yeah, I'll probably just sort through the sassy types and focus on what they do and how they treat me and others, and not focus on who I think they are.
And this strikes me as a great approach that should produce much better results for you. You list of wants/don't-wants looks perfectly reasonable and normal, stuff that any normal and loving person would want for herself, too.
Good luck!
posted by Forktine at 3:37 PM on November 17, 2008
i think i fall into this sassy category. well, i am a sarcastic smart-ass and i like it. the guy who i am dating now likes it too but i distinctly remember something he said to me when we first started dating, which is that despite how i acted, he knew i had a soft side and he was going to find it. in a way i found this sweet and reassuring. all girls have that sweet side, but sometimes it makes us feel vulnerable to let it out. especially if we think a guy is attracted to us for our hardass attitude. so let these sassy girls know that you like their sass and opinions and the fact that they are also able to be sweet without compromising what they stand for. if we know you want both sides, we are more willing to share them both with you. plus, i think a lot of guys automatically assume we are bitchy, so the fact that he assumed the opposite was nice.
the other problem i have had is that sometimes with all the 'little' fights and whatnot it becomes a power struggle, or wrong vs. right. its absolutely essential to maintain respect and kindness towards each other, and try to view each other as equals, not as winners or losers of an argument. of course, this is universal advice that will make any relationship better, but in particular for the sassy girl sometimes it can be hard to 'lose' the fight and then we are pissy. i've learned how to be sassy and sarcastic and sweet and nice at the same time, but it took a lot of work and crappy relationships. basically, i grew up and matured. your problem may just be that you are too young, or at least the girls you date are. (i'm 25.) they won't grow out their opinions or ambitions, but with time most of them will outgrow the bitchy stuff. good luck to you.
posted by lblair at 11:11 AM on November 26, 2008 [1 favorite]
the other problem i have had is that sometimes with all the 'little' fights and whatnot it becomes a power struggle, or wrong vs. right. its absolutely essential to maintain respect and kindness towards each other, and try to view each other as equals, not as winners or losers of an argument. of course, this is universal advice that will make any relationship better, but in particular for the sassy girl sometimes it can be hard to 'lose' the fight and then we are pissy. i've learned how to be sassy and sarcastic and sweet and nice at the same time, but it took a lot of work and crappy relationships. basically, i grew up and matured. your problem may just be that you are too young, or at least the girls you date are. (i'm 25.) they won't grow out their opinions or ambitions, but with time most of them will outgrow the bitchy stuff. good luck to you.
posted by lblair at 11:11 AM on November 26, 2008 [1 favorite]
i thought of a bit more to clarify-
i know that there are quite a few guys out there who ARE attracted to this 'type.' i think thats why i found it so nice when my boyfriend took on the challenge of finding my 'sweet side'- thats how I knew that he actually wanted to get to know the real me, the part of me i don't necessarily show everyone. a lot of guys are just into the idea of the sassy girl and they never really delve deeper than that, and it gets lonely to maintain that act all the time. he let me know it was ok to be me no matter how i was feeling. by making me feel secure i was able to let down the guard. maybe the problem is one or the other- you are either approaching the wrong women, or maybe your approach to them is wrong. sassy girls are still girls and they have girlie feelings which you must respect!
posted by lblair at 11:20 AM on November 26, 2008
i know that there are quite a few guys out there who ARE attracted to this 'type.' i think thats why i found it so nice when my boyfriend took on the challenge of finding my 'sweet side'- thats how I knew that he actually wanted to get to know the real me, the part of me i don't necessarily show everyone. a lot of guys are just into the idea of the sassy girl and they never really delve deeper than that, and it gets lonely to maintain that act all the time. he let me know it was ok to be me no matter how i was feeling. by making me feel secure i was able to let down the guard. maybe the problem is one or the other- you are either approaching the wrong women, or maybe your approach to them is wrong. sassy girls are still girls and they have girlie feelings which you must respect!
posted by lblair at 11:20 AM on November 26, 2008
This thread is closed to new comments.
This attraction to them also seems to come even before I have conversations with sassy types. I seem to immediately get a sense, by the way a girl is dressed, the way she carries herself, and the kind of facial expressions she uses, that she is that type. And I'm immediately turned on.
When I see a girl who is not like that type, I don't find myself pulled in. As a result, I don't initiate conversations with them in the first place. And I feel kind of weird forcing myself to talk to women when I'm not turned on.
posted by pauldonato at 8:15 PM on November 16, 2008