How would Obama explain that two 10-hour TA jobs is more work than a 20-hour TA job?
October 20, 2008 9:47 PM Subscribe
How can I explain to the university staff that giving me two 10-hour TAs is a lot more work than a single 20-hour TA?
I'm a grad student TA, and have been assigned to 2 10-hour TAs for the near and medium future (and currently doing 2 10-hour TAs). 10-hour TAs are basically half a regular 20-hour TA position, split between 2 professors and 2 classes (although sometimes the same course number).
I know internally that 2 10-hour TAs a ton more work than a single 20-hour TA, but my best explanation is it's a much greater mental workload.
Concrete things that make 2*10-hours a lot more work:
- twice as many quizzes/assignments/exams to grade / track / return
- twice as many students to keep track of and work with
- have to get familiar with twice the course materials since the professors use completely different content
- more days where I have to help in class or sit in on an exam (less time flexibility)
- twice the stress, twice the things to think about when I'm in the shower etc.
- more time needed taking the bus to/from school for each class or meeting with the professor
However, the staff will deflect that I would only need to work 10 hours and stop, so they should technically be the same amount of work. They also recommend tracking my hours, but there is just this "untrackable time" I can't explain, but I know I have less disposible time when doing 2 10-hour TAs compared to a 20-hour TA.
How can I phrase that 2*10-hours > 20-hours clearly and eloquently?
I'm a grad student TA, and have been assigned to 2 10-hour TAs for the near and medium future (and currently doing 2 10-hour TAs). 10-hour TAs are basically half a regular 20-hour TA position, split between 2 professors and 2 classes (although sometimes the same course number).
I know internally that 2 10-hour TAs a ton more work than a single 20-hour TA, but my best explanation is it's a much greater mental workload.
Concrete things that make 2*10-hours a lot more work:
- twice as many quizzes/assignments/exams to grade / track / return
- twice as many students to keep track of and work with
- have to get familiar with twice the course materials since the professors use completely different content
- more days where I have to help in class or sit in on an exam (less time flexibility)
- twice the stress, twice the things to think about when I'm in the shower etc.
- more time needed taking the bus to/from school for each class or meeting with the professor
However, the staff will deflect that I would only need to work 10 hours and stop, so they should technically be the same amount of work. They also recommend tracking my hours, but there is just this "untrackable time" I can't explain, but I know I have less disposible time when doing 2 10-hour TAs compared to a 20-hour TA.
How can I phrase that 2*10-hours > 20-hours clearly and eloquently?
The trouble is that whoever made the decision to impose this on you will already be fully aware that doing two half-jobs properly is more work than doing the same nominal hours as a single job. You can argue the point until you're blue in the face, and you will continue to meet the same "track your time" rebuff. That person doesn't care whether the jobs are done properly. It's not that person's problem. That person's problem is to slot everybody fit into a schedule in a way that causes no problems for them or their boss.
So, you need to work your way up the hierarchy above that person, until you find somebody who actually cares about the quality of education your institution offers its students, and put your quality-of-work argument to them. As soon as that person's time is being consumed by dealing with you, that's a problem. They will react by delegating subordinates to solving that problem. Eventually, the person who assigned you the two half-jobs will simply find it easier to find somebody less troublesome to wedge into their schedule's leftover nooks.
The risk is that you might end up with no slots because you're too much trouble all round.
Best of luck. Working for two bosses at once within the same org is just horrible.
posted by flabdablet at 10:23 PM on October 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
So, you need to work your way up the hierarchy above that person, until you find somebody who actually cares about the quality of education your institution offers its students, and put your quality-of-work argument to them. As soon as that person's time is being consumed by dealing with you, that's a problem. They will react by delegating subordinates to solving that problem. Eventually, the person who assigned you the two half-jobs will simply find it easier to find somebody less troublesome to wedge into their schedule's leftover nooks.
The risk is that you might end up with no slots because you're too much trouble all round.
Best of luck. Working for two bosses at once within the same org is just horrible.
posted by flabdablet at 10:23 PM on October 20, 2008 [1 favorite]
Best answer: One thing that's important to know is how likely your request is to get you what you want. Is this some sort of protest letter that you're sending, or some officially-accepted method of getting a preferable TA assignment? Is this some anonymous letter being sent into Bureaucracy Land, or is it a request being sent to someone you personally know in your own department, say?
Second, is this the sort of situation where, no matter what, someone is going to have to take the 2 10 hours? If so, you don't really have to prove that a 20 hour is preferable so much as you have to show that, given your specific situation, you have greater reason to want the 1 ten hour than any other candidate would.
No one can give you complete advice without knowing all this (and probably more I haven't thought of). I can try to give some advice, though, based on what you've told us.
In general, I'd advise against focusing on the first two points you list. The university is clearly expecting 2 ten hour positions to be equivalent to 1 20 hour position, insofar as grading and so forth is concerned, so they aren't going to buy the idea that you have more work to do grading, etc. Focus, instead, on your second two points and your last point. These are factors inherent to the system. There's just no way to avoid the fact that 2 10 hour positions would require you to attend twice as many class periods, get acquainted with twice as much material, etc. I don't really see how they could argue against those points.
posted by Ms. Saint at 10:29 PM on October 20, 2008
Second, is this the sort of situation where, no matter what, someone is going to have to take the 2 10 hours? If so, you don't really have to prove that a 20 hour is preferable so much as you have to show that, given your specific situation, you have greater reason to want the 1 ten hour than any other candidate would.
No one can give you complete advice without knowing all this (and probably more I haven't thought of). I can try to give some advice, though, based on what you've told us.
In general, I'd advise against focusing on the first two points you list. The university is clearly expecting 2 ten hour positions to be equivalent to 1 20 hour position, insofar as grading and so forth is concerned, so they aren't going to buy the idea that you have more work to do grading, etc. Focus, instead, on your second two points and your last point. These are factors inherent to the system. There's just no way to avoid the fact that 2 10 hour positions would require you to attend twice as many class periods, get acquainted with twice as much material, etc. I don't really see how they could argue against those points.
posted by Ms. Saint at 10:29 PM on October 20, 2008
I think they know exactly what they are doing to you and don't give a rat's ass. Suck it up or quit.
posted by LarryC at 10:37 PM on October 20, 2008 [5 favorites]
posted by LarryC at 10:37 PM on October 20, 2008 [5 favorites]
Have you got a union and a collective bargaining agreement? Do you have a union rep? This sort of thing is what they exist for.
posted by PercussivePaul at 10:38 PM on October 20, 2008
posted by PercussivePaul at 10:38 PM on October 20, 2008
This seems like the kind of problem best solved by an individual professor. I'd go to one of the professors you're TAing for (the one you have the best relationship with), explain the situation, tell them that you really want to do a good job for them and how the current situation makes that difficult, and see if they can arrange to have your position converted into a 20-hour TAship for them alone. If it's a department secretary of some kind that's doing these assignments, a visit from a faculty member might give you the leverage you need.
posted by zachlipton at 10:48 PM on October 20, 2008
posted by zachlipton at 10:48 PM on October 20, 2008
Because fails to realize the learning curve in training any new staff, and values time (10 hours) over task completion.
TAs are useful in that they gain a body of knowledge, and then are able to relieve the professor's work load by taking over for his/her students, grading, etc. Every professor on the planet would prefer to develop one curriculum and teach one class of 50 students one body of knowledge, than to teach 2 two curriculums in 2 classes of 100 students total in two separate content areas (say intro to bio and intro to chem.)
In addition to those ramp up and learning curve costs, there are implementation costs. Over time, of course one grows more proficient and efficient - but if it takes me 3 hours to prep for chem and 3 hours to prep for bio - I only have 14 hours left to implement that knowledge total, and really, 7 hours for each body of knowledge. That's less efficient than prepping 3 hours for chem and then implementing that for 17 hours. 7 hours vs. 17 hours. So of course one 20 hour job is better for you.
But whoever said it upthread is right. They probably know this, but really need to make profs happy by giving them a TA. And they'll take 10 hours of you over no hours of anyone.
I like Zachlipton's idea of talking to the prof. If they object, then the only way to manage it (beside not taking it) is to clearly negotiate and discuss what you can realistically accomplish in 10 hours. Talk with your professor about what you both think is reasonable in 10 hours and get an agreement that since you are splitting your time, that if it takes more than 10 hours, you aren't just expected to work til it's done. And then write a short email solidifying your agreement in print. Then, as soon as the TIME is up, regardless of whether the TASK is finished, you stop. Give it back to the professor, start counting the TIME against next week's ten hours, whatever. But 10 hours a week for 15 weeks means that they get 150 hours. After that, it's over.
By the way, I think there is some lovely mac software that actually prompts you every 15 minutes to catalogue what you are doing with your time and then prints a lovely chart. That might help justify what happened when you blow through your 150 hours after 8 weeks and the professor is left high and dry.
Good luck!
posted by anitanita at 12:00 AM on October 21, 2008
TAs are useful in that they gain a body of knowledge, and then are able to relieve the professor's work load by taking over for his/her students, grading, etc. Every professor on the planet would prefer to develop one curriculum and teach one class of 50 students one body of knowledge, than to teach 2 two curriculums in 2 classes of 100 students total in two separate content areas (say intro to bio and intro to chem.)
In addition to those ramp up and learning curve costs, there are implementation costs. Over time, of course one grows more proficient and efficient - but if it takes me 3 hours to prep for chem and 3 hours to prep for bio - I only have 14 hours left to implement that knowledge total, and really, 7 hours for each body of knowledge. That's less efficient than prepping 3 hours for chem and then implementing that for 17 hours. 7 hours vs. 17 hours. So of course one 20 hour job is better for you.
But whoever said it upthread is right. They probably know this, but really need to make profs happy by giving them a TA. And they'll take 10 hours of you over no hours of anyone.
I like Zachlipton's idea of talking to the prof. If they object, then the only way to manage it (beside not taking it) is to clearly negotiate and discuss what you can realistically accomplish in 10 hours. Talk with your professor about what you both think is reasonable in 10 hours and get an agreement that since you are splitting your time, that if it takes more than 10 hours, you aren't just expected to work til it's done. And then write a short email solidifying your agreement in print. Then, as soon as the TIME is up, regardless of whether the TASK is finished, you stop. Give it back to the professor, start counting the TIME against next week's ten hours, whatever. But 10 hours a week for 15 weeks means that they get 150 hours. After that, it's over.
By the way, I think there is some lovely mac software that actually prompts you every 15 minutes to catalogue what you are doing with your time and then prints a lovely chart. That might help justify what happened when you blow through your 150 hours after 8 weeks and the professor is left high and dry.
Good luck!
posted by anitanita at 12:00 AM on October 21, 2008
Please clarify why you want to "explain" that two 10-hour jobs are more work than a 20-hour job. I suspect that flabdablet and LarryC are right: the staff that you are talking to are probably not under any misimpression that the two assignments are equivalent. If they are speaking to you from their official positions, then of course they will go through whatever rhetorical contortions are necessary to uphold the official line that each job requires the number of work hours specified, period.
I am given to understand that it is common for universities in the US to affix entirely fictional work hours to their TA/RA positions. You can't be considered a full-time student if you do paid work for too many hours, so they assign you whatever work load they need you to do, and then they call it whatever number of hours is administratively expedient. The purpose of labeling TAships as 10 or 20 hours is emphatically NOT to represent how much work is involved (in either absolute or relative terms). The purpose of labeling TAships as 10 or 20 hours is to keep everything tidy for the government audit.
I suspect that this is more or less the situation at your institution. You can "explain" how the TA work load really works until you are blue in the face, but I doubt your explanations will motivate anyone in an administrative position to drop the pretense. They have good reasons for keeping their individual asses and the institution's collective ass covered.
So. What were you hoping to achieve by this explanation? I suggest you start thinking about alternative means of achieving that objective.
posted by Orinda at 12:24 AM on October 21, 2008
I am given to understand that it is common for universities in the US to affix entirely fictional work hours to their TA/RA positions. You can't be considered a full-time student if you do paid work for too many hours, so they assign you whatever work load they need you to do, and then they call it whatever number of hours is administratively expedient. The purpose of labeling TAships as 10 or 20 hours is emphatically NOT to represent how much work is involved (in either absolute or relative terms). The purpose of labeling TAships as 10 or 20 hours is to keep everything tidy for the government audit.
I suspect that this is more or less the situation at your institution. You can "explain" how the TA work load really works until you are blue in the face, but I doubt your explanations will motivate anyone in an administrative position to drop the pretense. They have good reasons for keeping their individual asses and the institution's collective ass covered.
So. What were you hoping to achieve by this explanation? I suggest you start thinking about alternative means of achieving that objective.
posted by Orinda at 12:24 AM on October 21, 2008
You need more detailed advice that depends upon your university & department. So I'd say just ask some professor who likes you about whom to ask. You likely want to discuss this with the "undergraduate vice chair", who normally both has all the power over such matters and cares about undergraduate education.
posted by jeffburdges at 12:26 AM on October 21, 2008
posted by jeffburdges at 12:26 AM on October 21, 2008
anitanita: for the record, you could well be thinking of OfficeTime. It's priced rather high, but they have a free trial. An obsession with accounting for your time is somewhat getting away from the point here though, which is about using time effectively.
posted by zachlipton at 1:13 AM on October 21, 2008
posted by zachlipton at 1:13 AM on October 21, 2008
I think they know exactly what they are doing to you and don't give a rat's ass.
That's possible, but highly unlikely. Much more likely is that the person who schedules this is trying to do the best job of matching a bunch of graduate fellows who may or may not take their job seriously or actually show up with the amount of time/funding allotted to each one (extra strict if there are international students) and the demands of professors who think that every one of them is going to get their demand of X full-time people totally dedicated to the job. And in many departments that person has limited authority to make significant changes, and even less leeway to do so without getting yelled at by somebody with tenure and a bad attitude.
What that means is that if you ask the departmental staff nicely and explain that you take the job seriously, you might get some help, but there's a good chance that your schedule is part of the "everybody gets screwed a little so that nobody gets totally hosed" compromise. If they can help you, they will let you know. If they can't and you go over their head without asking, there's a chance they'll get told to accommodate you even if it's not reasonable, which will change somebody else's schedule, and then some professor comes in to yell at them; this will not endear you to the people who take care of making sure you get paid.
posted by Dr.Enormous at 5:50 AM on October 21, 2008
That's possible, but highly unlikely. Much more likely is that the person who schedules this is trying to do the best job of matching a bunch of graduate fellows who may or may not take their job seriously or actually show up with the amount of time/funding allotted to each one (extra strict if there are international students) and the demands of professors who think that every one of them is going to get their demand of X full-time people totally dedicated to the job. And in many departments that person has limited authority to make significant changes, and even less leeway to do so without getting yelled at by somebody with tenure and a bad attitude.
What that means is that if you ask the departmental staff nicely and explain that you take the job seriously, you might get some help, but there's a good chance that your schedule is part of the "everybody gets screwed a little so that nobody gets totally hosed" compromise. If they can help you, they will let you know. If they can't and you go over their head without asking, there's a chance they'll get told to accommodate you even if it's not reasonable, which will change somebody else's schedule, and then some professor comes in to yell at them; this will not endear you to the people who take care of making sure you get paid.
posted by Dr.Enormous at 5:50 AM on October 21, 2008
It might help to know what kind of TA spot you are talking about. Are these "I attend lecture and grade homework" TAs, or are they "I teach the recitation section and grade homework" or "I teach labs and grade lab work only"? Who is giving the assignments that you need to grade, you or the prof? How much control do you have over how much of the work you end up responsible for, is what I'm asking here.
If you have a lot of control over the amount of student work you end up creating, assigning & grading, you may be able to reduce your own workload no matter what happens. If you have very little control, you'll need to talk to the professor and explain the situation.
I'm guessing this sort of thing happens more often in non-science departments. I never heard of a science TA asked to do multiple courses at once. On the other hand, the second you finish and land a job with teaching responsibility, you're expected to handle it. If nothing else, it will give you a taste of how much fun it is to try that the first semester (hint: It blows, say goodbye to sleep...)
posted by caution live frogs at 7:00 AM on October 21, 2008
If you have a lot of control over the amount of student work you end up creating, assigning & grading, you may be able to reduce your own workload no matter what happens. If you have very little control, you'll need to talk to the professor and explain the situation.
I'm guessing this sort of thing happens more often in non-science departments. I never heard of a science TA asked to do multiple courses at once. On the other hand, the second you finish and land a job with teaching responsibility, you're expected to handle it. If nothing else, it will give you a taste of how much fun it is to try that the first semester (hint: It blows, say goodbye to sleep...)
posted by caution live frogs at 7:00 AM on October 21, 2008
You are a GTA. You don't get to pick what you do, unfortunately. Sometimes you get the good stuff, sometimes you get the bad. You just gotta hope the scheduling peoples don't hit you with the bad stuff every semester.
It's over in 4 or 5 years. I say deal with it.
(This coming from a fellow GTA, with all the compassion I could muster.)
posted by TypographicalError at 7:00 AM on October 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
It's over in 4 or 5 years. I say deal with it.
(This coming from a fellow GTA, with all the compassion I could muster.)
posted by TypographicalError at 7:00 AM on October 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
Actually, since my last reply is full of snark, let me share with you a secret.
It sounds like you're a new GTA. Or maybe this is your 3rd semester, first time with the 2*10 business. Either way, there's a trick that you need to learn:
Stop caring about the students.
Now, that is not to say that you should actively seek their failure, or that you shouldn't help the ones that come to you, but if you're trying to help everyone, you're doing something wrong. This job is not stressful if you're doing it right.
So when you're grading, establish a rubric and stick to it like a robot. 90% of my grading stress comes from me trying to flex my mathematical standards to see if I can give a student an extra point or two, and that's a terrible idea. The best (worst) example is when I happen to make a test that's too hard, and I have to sit down and have my face rubbed in how badly the students did. You have to suppress that guilty instinct and just grade.
Just do what the professor/instructor tells you to do with the class. Don't try to be a hero - you're a TA. TA's are not heroes.
If you do this, I think a lot of your "untrackable" time will go away.
As to your other points:
posted by TypographicalError at 7:29 AM on October 21, 2008
It sounds like you're a new GTA. Or maybe this is your 3rd semester, first time with the 2*10 business. Either way, there's a trick that you need to learn:
Stop caring about the students.
Now, that is not to say that you should actively seek their failure, or that you shouldn't help the ones that come to you, but if you're trying to help everyone, you're doing something wrong. This job is not stressful if you're doing it right.
So when you're grading, establish a rubric and stick to it like a robot. 90% of my grading stress comes from me trying to flex my mathematical standards to see if I can give a student an extra point or two, and that's a terrible idea. The best (worst) example is when I happen to make a test that's too hard, and I have to sit down and have my face rubbed in how badly the students did. You have to suppress that guilty instinct and just grade.
Just do what the professor/instructor tells you to do with the class. Don't try to be a hero - you're a TA. TA's are not heroes.
If you do this, I think a lot of your "untrackable" time will go away.
As to your other points:
- If you don't know the packaging for the material, but you know the material, you're golden. If you have to explain do/while to a student but aren't sure how they've learned it, ask them to explain it. Or alternately, explain it however you want to - alternate approaches are good for students. The point is: as long as you know the material backwards and forwards, the packaging doesn't matter to you, the TA.
- If the travel time is an issue, start treating this like a real job: come in at 8 in the morning, leave at 5 in the afternoon. You'll be more productive and then this will be a nonissue. Realize that despite your TAship and coursework, you're still doing less work than average man on the street. It may be more mentally taxing (god how it may be), but with the right frame of mind you can get rid of some of that stress.
- If it's actually, literally twice the number of things to grade, that's really unfortunate, and I don't have a good piece of advice for that. Grading is, after all, the least fun thing about being a TA. My advice would be to just try and minimize the mental ache you get from this as above, and hope that you get a 20 hr assignment next semester.
posted by TypographicalError at 7:29 AM on October 21, 2008
As someone who assigns graduate fellows to professors, I can tell you that I do realize that working for two professors is more difficult than working for one, but the vast majority of the time, it's not possible for me to assign one student to one professor due to the hours and obligations of other grad. fellows (which may be less or more than another one's), professor needs, and to the ratio of students to faculty.
I do my best to assign one grad student to one professor when I can, but I can also tell you where I work it almost never happens --- most of my fellows work for two professors, and that really is the best I can do since there just aren't enough grad. students with appropriate funding to assign one to every professor.
Priority also goes to grad. students who have been here the longest.
posted by zizzle at 9:03 AM on October 21, 2008
I do my best to assign one grad student to one professor when I can, but I can also tell you where I work it almost never happens --- most of my fellows work for two professors, and that really is the best I can do since there just aren't enough grad. students with appropriate funding to assign one to every professor.
Priority also goes to grad. students who have been here the longest.
posted by zizzle at 9:03 AM on October 21, 2008
Response by poster: Thanks for all the responses.
The staff does care about the TAs and the job we do. I just have to find a way to explain why the two 10 hour TAs are more work. Most TAs have 20-hour positions, and I've been able to switch TA assignments before by asking with a good argument.
I was thinking more like asking them to imagine working 20 2-hour jobs, or something along the line.
posted by tasty at 9:04 AM on October 21, 2008
The staff does care about the TAs and the job we do. I just have to find a way to explain why the two 10 hour TAs are more work. Most TAs have 20-hour positions, and I've been able to switch TA assignments before by asking with a good argument.
I was thinking more like asking them to imagine working 20 2-hour jobs, or something along the line.
posted by tasty at 9:04 AM on October 21, 2008
I agree that accounting for your time is the best way to make this argument. If you are currently doing the same teaching load, this shouldn't be very difficult at all. I would include with this, say, a packet of copies of graded student work, so that you can illustrate the amount of work that you put into grading student papers. If they tell you that you should be spending less time on grading, tell them that this would be doing the students a disservice, and that you deserve to be compensated for all time spent working, including prep time. The real problem here isn't that the two ten hour assignments are more work than one twenty hour assignment. The problem is that you're working for more than twenty hours, with no compensation (either through extra tuition remission, or extra stipend money) for that. Keep tracking your time, and keep reiterating that spending any less time on this work outside of class would be slacking in your job duties.
I'm lucky in that my graduate school tacks on prep time pay per course rather than for hourly assignments--not that it really makes a huge difference in my paycheck, but at least I know I'm getting paid a token amount for the time spent outside of class. In my sister's graduate program, on the other hand, students will be frequently given a "lecturer" instead of a "TA" position that's identical in terms of job duties but does not include the full tuition remission, benefits, or the same amount of pay. Universities know that graduate students pretty much constitute cheap, cheap labor for them, and will exploit this however they can. Definitely contact your union, if you have one. They're there to help you.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:27 AM on October 21, 2008
I'm lucky in that my graduate school tacks on prep time pay per course rather than for hourly assignments--not that it really makes a huge difference in my paycheck, but at least I know I'm getting paid a token amount for the time spent outside of class. In my sister's graduate program, on the other hand, students will be frequently given a "lecturer" instead of a "TA" position that's identical in terms of job duties but does not include the full tuition remission, benefits, or the same amount of pay. Universities know that graduate students pretty much constitute cheap, cheap labor for them, and will exploit this however they can. Definitely contact your union, if you have one. They're there to help you.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:27 AM on October 21, 2008
This thread is closed to new comments.
Alternatively, find some research on this topic and quote that.
posted by amtho at 10:13 PM on October 20, 2008