Dumb, drunken credit card problem.
August 27, 2008 8:13 AM Subscribe
Dumb, horny, out of the country, drunk, paying for strippers with credit card. They ripped me off to the tune of $2600. Stupid, stupid, stupid. It was different from a typical American strip joint, more a 'get a private room' sort of place, not a big stage show, and no sex acts performed.
I was offered and have no receipts. I only remember signing one. I have five separate charges from this place on my card. I wasn't there very long, maybe two hours. I'm 99% sure I'm being ripped off.
I DO NOT want to do anything illegal, and am willing to pay what I really signed for. How should I proceed?
A woman brought a bottle of champagne and I remember signing at least one receipt. I might have signed one more, though I'm pretty sure it was just one. Honestly, I don't remember how much it was for. I wasn't offered a copy and didn't get a copy. Stupid and drunk, I know.
When I got back to the US, I found five separate charges billed to my card... two were for the same amount to the penny, around $500 each. The other three were different, but all together added up to around $2600.
I immediately called the card company and reported this. I told them I was out and probably went to the place (the name listed is foreign and generic, and translates to 'drinking place' or some such), but no way in hell did I make five transactions totaling $2600. They cancelled the card and told me this definitely looks like fraud and to report all the charges to their fraud department.
I called their fraud department Monday morning to report it. They credited the challenged charges to my account, pending investigation. The next step is they send me paperwork via snail-mail for me to review, indicate which charges are false, sign and return. Then they'll investigate the place and the charges.
Should I challenge all the charges and make them come up with signed copies?
Should I selectively challenge certain charges?
What if someone just fakes my signature? Can you challenge a forged signature?
Again, I do not want to do anything illegal. I'm willing to pay for what I got, but $2600 is ludicrous. Yes, this is the single stupidest thing I've ever done financially, and I don't care if you want to flame me for it. I feel terrible about the whole mess.
Any advice? Anyone been in a similar situation? Help, please.
Reply here, or reach me at:
ticplas -at- yahoo.com
A woman brought a bottle of champagne and I remember signing at least one receipt. I might have signed one more, though I'm pretty sure it was just one. Honestly, I don't remember how much it was for. I wasn't offered a copy and didn't get a copy. Stupid and drunk, I know.
When I got back to the US, I found five separate charges billed to my card... two were for the same amount to the penny, around $500 each. The other three were different, but all together added up to around $2600.
I immediately called the card company and reported this. I told them I was out and probably went to the place (the name listed is foreign and generic, and translates to 'drinking place' or some such), but no way in hell did I make five transactions totaling $2600. They cancelled the card and told me this definitely looks like fraud and to report all the charges to their fraud department.
I called their fraud department Monday morning to report it. They credited the challenged charges to my account, pending investigation. The next step is they send me paperwork via snail-mail for me to review, indicate which charges are false, sign and return. Then they'll investigate the place and the charges.
Should I challenge all the charges and make them come up with signed copies?
Should I selectively challenge certain charges?
What if someone just fakes my signature? Can you challenge a forged signature?
Again, I do not want to do anything illegal. I'm willing to pay for what I got, but $2600 is ludicrous. Yes, this is the single stupidest thing I've ever done financially, and I don't care if you want to flame me for it. I feel terrible about the whole mess.
Any advice? Anyone been in a similar situation? Help, please.
Reply here, or reach me at:
ticplas -at- yahoo.com
Maybe I'm an unethical bad person, but I would a) ask to get this AskMe deleted ASAP, and b) deny deny deny to the credit card company. "I might have had a few drinks there, but I know I didn't agree to pay for anything this expensive."
posted by Forktine at 8:23 AM on August 27, 2008
posted by Forktine at 8:23 AM on August 27, 2008
Credit cards offer protection. Call your CC company and tell them that this was not an authorized charge. Be insistent. They will charge-back the vendor and remove the fee.
posted by damn dirty ape at 8:29 AM on August 27, 2008
posted by damn dirty ape at 8:29 AM on August 27, 2008
Your memory of the evening is hazy - not good. Also, the fact that you say "I'm 99% sure I'm being ripped off" is a red flag. Not 100% sure?
posted by davebush at 8:30 AM on August 27, 2008
posted by davebush at 8:30 AM on August 27, 2008
Argh. I just realized that this was anonymous.
It sounds like the place you went, like many strip joint type places, may relies on alcohol and sex to bring in profit. WHile this is an excellent business model, it typically does not benefit the consumer, unless the consumer has a lot of disposable income.
You make no mention of an agreed upon price. Did you get ripped off? Is what you received worth $2600? I think that's a subjective judgment.
posted by Cat Pie Hurts at 8:33 AM on August 27, 2008
It sounds like the place you went, like many strip joint type places, may relies on alcohol and sex to bring in profit. WHile this is an excellent business model, it typically does not benefit the consumer, unless the consumer has a lot of disposable income.
You make no mention of an agreed upon price. Did you get ripped off? Is what you received worth $2600? I think that's a subjective judgment.
posted by Cat Pie Hurts at 8:33 AM on August 27, 2008
This kind of happened to a friend of mine in Vegas... they made him put his thumb print on the receipt at the time.
So... uhh... watch out for that.
posted by ph00dz at 8:36 AM on August 27, 2008
So... uhh... watch out for that.
posted by ph00dz at 8:36 AM on August 27, 2008
Disputing charges you don't have receipts for and that you can reasonably assume might be duplicates makes sense.
In a credit-card dispute, the onus is on the vendor to prove the authenticity of the charges, not on the consumer to pay up.
Now if the vendor can't prove the authenticity of the charges to the credit card company's satisfaction, they're out of luck. If they do prove the authenticity of the charges to the credit card company's satisfaction, you will have to pay up or take the matter up a level. I would advise paying up in that situation.
You did the right thing: you disputed charges that looked fishy to you. Now the credit card company and the vendor will sort it out between them.
posted by Sidhedevil at 8:58 AM on August 27, 2008 [1 favorite]
In a credit-card dispute, the onus is on the vendor to prove the authenticity of the charges, not on the consumer to pay up.
Now if the vendor can't prove the authenticity of the charges to the credit card company's satisfaction, they're out of luck. If they do prove the authenticity of the charges to the credit card company's satisfaction, you will have to pay up or take the matter up a level. I would advise paying up in that situation.
You did the right thing: you disputed charges that looked fishy to you. Now the credit card company and the vendor will sort it out between them.
posted by Sidhedevil at 8:58 AM on August 27, 2008 [1 favorite]
500 dollars for a bottle of champagne at any lounge/bar or whatever that has "table service" isn't ludicrous - in fact, it is quite normal. The fact that you were dumb enough to accept that charge doesn't fault the establishment for charging that.
The club might be ripping you off or it might not be. If you were in a private room, that will cost you. If you had private dancers, that will cost you. Since you were drunk, you buying booze will cost you. Keep challenging the charges like you are and your credit card company will be able to figure out which charges are correct and which aren't but don't be too surprised if all of them are deemed correct. Strip clubs, bars, nightclubs, etc all make their money from people being stupid and spending way too much. From your description, this clubs charges are not outrageous and out of line and I wouldn't be surprised if the credit card company discovered this too.
posted by Stynxno at 8:58 AM on August 27, 2008 [2 favorites]
The club might be ripping you off or it might not be. If you were in a private room, that will cost you. If you had private dancers, that will cost you. Since you were drunk, you buying booze will cost you. Keep challenging the charges like you are and your credit card company will be able to figure out which charges are correct and which aren't but don't be too surprised if all of them are deemed correct. Strip clubs, bars, nightclubs, etc all make their money from people being stupid and spending way too much. From your description, this clubs charges are not outrageous and out of line and I wouldn't be surprised if the credit card company discovered this too.
posted by Stynxno at 8:58 AM on August 27, 2008 [2 favorites]
When you say out of the country, and I'm assuming you're American, do you mean Canada/Western Europe or do you mean Thailand/SE Asia? If you were somewhere like Montreal or Amsterdam the price is going to be the same, if not higher, than in a place like NYC. And as has been said above, paying $2600 for what you got that night is not abnormal in a city like these.
posted by thecjm at 9:08 AM on August 27, 2008
posted by thecjm at 9:08 AM on August 27, 2008
even in NYC that would be a lot for a bottle of champagne and a few lap dances.
Not really. Well, sure, "a few lap dances". But he says he was there for TWO HOURS. That could be in the "champagne room" for two hours. It's quite possible they charge by the song. And songs at a strip joint are often cut short. So call it 40 songs plus a bottle of champagne or two. 40 songs could easily be $1200 or $1600 bucks. Plus two bottles of champagne at $500 a pop and you're at $2600.
My guess is that $2600 is accurate but that the OP had no idea going in it would be that much money. Which is why he should have found out how much stuff cost in advance.
This happens in the good ol' USA too; I come across news stories about it pretty often.
posted by Justinian at 9:14 AM on August 27, 2008
Not really. Well, sure, "a few lap dances". But he says he was there for TWO HOURS. That could be in the "champagne room" for two hours. It's quite possible they charge by the song. And songs at a strip joint are often cut short. So call it 40 songs plus a bottle of champagne or two. 40 songs could easily be $1200 or $1600 bucks. Plus two bottles of champagne at $500 a pop and you're at $2600.
My guess is that $2600 is accurate but that the OP had no idea going in it would be that much money. Which is why he should have found out how much stuff cost in advance.
This happens in the good ol' USA too; I come across news stories about it pretty often.
posted by Justinian at 9:14 AM on August 27, 2008
Wow, there's a lot of passive-aggressive moralizing going on here. If this had been a different situation, say at a car dealership where they notice they happened to pay $2,600 fees they don't remember signing off on, I expect there would be a lot more sympathy.
Do as others tell you and dispute the fee. To be honest I'm surprised they authorized the charge without speaking to you first. I was at a birthday dinner once, with many guests, and the charge slightly more than yours. The credit card company wouldn't authorize such a large amount without the card owner's consent. An overseas charge of $2,600 from a shady strip club should have sent red flags to the company. In any case this is why you have a credit card, so you can dispute purchases. I have a feeling that if you received a quote of their services, even at the high-end, there's no way a single person could have spent $2,600 without tipping very liberally. You probably got ripped off, but I would let the card company handle it.
posted by geoff. at 9:24 AM on August 27, 2008
Do as others tell you and dispute the fee. To be honest I'm surprised they authorized the charge without speaking to you first. I was at a birthday dinner once, with many guests, and the charge slightly more than yours. The credit card company wouldn't authorize such a large amount without the card owner's consent. An overseas charge of $2,600 from a shady strip club should have sent red flags to the company. In any case this is why you have a credit card, so you can dispute purchases. I have a feeling that if you received a quote of their services, even at the high-end, there's no way a single person could have spent $2,600 without tipping very liberally. You probably got ripped off, but I would let the card company handle it.
posted by geoff. at 9:24 AM on August 27, 2008
Okay, Geoff. If the asker had said that he went to a car dealership, drunk, and signed a lot of papers, I think people would still be kind of shaking their heads.
The advice here is sound. Let the CC handle the dispute and, in the meantime, figure out how you might be able to cover the debt so that your credit scores don't take a hit for non-payment.
posted by amanda at 9:52 AM on August 27, 2008 [2 favorites]
The advice here is sound. Let the CC handle the dispute and, in the meantime, figure out how you might be able to cover the debt so that your credit scores don't take a hit for non-payment.
posted by amanda at 9:52 AM on August 27, 2008 [2 favorites]
If this had been a different situation, say at a car dealership where they notice they happened to pay $2,600 fees they don't remember signing off on, I expect there would be a lot more sympathy.
The big difference of course being that you won't be drunk at a dealership and sign off on receipts without actually looking at them. Or else you live a more interesting life than I do.
Dispute the charges as you like, but remember: you're not sure what you signed and what you didn't sign for. It's wholly possible you agreed to everything and were just too drunk to remember (or care, at the time).
I have a feeling that if you received a quote of their services, even at the high-end, there's no way a single person could have spent $2,600 without tipping very liberally.
Your feeling notwithstanding, it is entirely possible to reach that amount without tipping out of line, as others have pointed out. 2 hours in the champagne room with bottles and girls isn't free. I have at least one friend that worked up a total that's 1/4 the amount discussed here, and it was with one girl in less than one hour in an average club. Bump that up to two hours and add bottle service, it's not at all inconceivable to reach $2600.
posted by splice at 9:52 AM on August 27, 2008
The big difference of course being that you won't be drunk at a dealership and sign off on receipts without actually looking at them. Or else you live a more interesting life than I do.
Dispute the charges as you like, but remember: you're not sure what you signed and what you didn't sign for. It's wholly possible you agreed to everything and were just too drunk to remember (or care, at the time).
I have a feeling that if you received a quote of their services, even at the high-end, there's no way a single person could have spent $2,600 without tipping very liberally.
Your feeling notwithstanding, it is entirely possible to reach that amount without tipping out of line, as others have pointed out. 2 hours in the champagne room with bottles and girls isn't free. I have at least one friend that worked up a total that's 1/4 the amount discussed here, and it was with one girl in less than one hour in an average club. Bump that up to two hours and add bottle service, it's not at all inconceivable to reach $2600.
posted by splice at 9:52 AM on August 27, 2008
I'd refute everything and let them come up with signed receipts. Granted they could have been forged but if you are able to view those copies with the detailed information maybe that will jog your memory.
posted by doorsfan at 10:00 AM on August 27, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by doorsfan at 10:00 AM on August 27, 2008 [1 favorite]
I don't think it's moralizing, geoff. I think a lot of people are pointing out that it is not really all that hard to believe that he actually spent this much money. He 1) bought enough drinks to get at least moderately drunk; 2) was too drunk to remember how many receipts that he signed, much less the amounts for which he signed; 3) then bought at least a bottle, maybe more, of bottle service champagne; 4) paid for a private room 5) with multiple girls 6) at an establishment that likely does not make charges for things explicit before purchase. So this means two things: he has no way of knowing, at this point, how much he actually agreed to pay, but it was likely to be considerably more than he might think is reasonable in the cold light of day. If there was a way to do something similar at a car dealership, I'd say the same thing.
BTW, anonymous, no judgment here...we've all done stupid stuff, especially while traveling. Your stupid stuff was just a little more expensive than usual.
posted by LittleMissCranky at 10:22 AM on August 27, 2008
BTW, anonymous, no judgment here...we've all done stupid stuff, especially while traveling. Your stupid stuff was just a little more expensive than usual.
posted by LittleMissCranky at 10:22 AM on August 27, 2008
I'd say given what you've done so far, say you were there but that only one of the three identical charges looks like the right amount and everything else is frivolous.
The credit card company will write to the strip club. A letter. The strip club has 30 days to respond, typically, including all documentation and receipts. This will then be forwarded on to you. You have 30 days to respond.
The first person to NOT respond loses, so always be sure you respond quickly. And be prepared for the strip club to drag this out; this may hang over your head for MONTHS but at least you're not paying interest on the charges.
If everyone responds in a timely manner, then the credit card company decides. If the club has receipts that tie to you, you lose. If they don't then they lose.
So fight through the credit card company as you are, and just be diligent about it.
posted by arniec at 10:22 AM on August 27, 2008
The credit card company will write to the strip club. A letter. The strip club has 30 days to respond, typically, including all documentation and receipts. This will then be forwarded on to you. You have 30 days to respond.
The first person to NOT respond loses, so always be sure you respond quickly. And be prepared for the strip club to drag this out; this may hang over your head for MONTHS but at least you're not paying interest on the charges.
If everyone responds in a timely manner, then the credit card company decides. If the club has receipts that tie to you, you lose. If they don't then they lose.
So fight through the credit card company as you are, and just be diligent about it.
posted by arniec at 10:22 AM on August 27, 2008
The smart thing is to dispute everything and let them prove that you authorized the charges. You might get lucky and get your money back. It certainly can't hurt.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 10:47 AM on August 27, 2008
posted by The Light Fantastic at 10:47 AM on August 27, 2008
Sondriliac said:
Since you don't remember, I'd challenge all of them and make them come up with receipts.
I don't see what you'd possibly doing that would be illegal.
Correct. The Light Fantastic and others said the same thing.
It's just routine to ask your CC company to get you more details on charges that you don't remember. You don't have to deny incurring the charges; you don't have to accuse anybody of anything; you just have to say truthfully that you don't remember. The overseas vendor should be willing to provide details on the CC charges as a normal part of their business operations.
posted by JimN2TAW at 11:31 AM on August 27, 2008
Since you don't remember, I'd challenge all of them and make them come up with receipts.
I don't see what you'd possibly doing that would be illegal.
Correct. The Light Fantastic and others said the same thing.
It's just routine to ask your CC company to get you more details on charges that you don't remember. You don't have to deny incurring the charges; you don't have to accuse anybody of anything; you just have to say truthfully that you don't remember. The overseas vendor should be willing to provide details on the CC charges as a normal part of their business operations.
posted by JimN2TAW at 11:31 AM on August 27, 2008
This is a well established scam, and it is illegal in some countries. These guys are ripping people off. If you dispute the charges, most likely they will not challenge it, just shrug it off and go rip off the next customer.
I'd lay odds you can get your money back, and I'd urge you to do it.
posted by TigerCrane at 12:12 PM on August 27, 2008
I'd lay odds you can get your money back, and I'd urge you to do it.
posted by TigerCrane at 12:12 PM on August 27, 2008
My opinion: Fraud departments aren't really set up to deal with "partially valid" purchases. They kind of expect an all-or-nothing deal. So, just take back your entire $2600. I say, screw 'em. They tried to work you over? They get nothing. If they wanted that to which they were rightfully entitled, they'd have charged you a fair amount. Let them pay for their greed.
posted by Citrus at 12:20 PM on August 27, 2008
posted by Citrus at 12:20 PM on August 27, 2008
Fraud departments aren't really set up to deal with "partially valid" purchases. They kind of expect an all-or-nothing deal.
Not so. A credit card company will challenge part of a charge if that part was unwarranted.
posted by Taken Outtacontext at 1:25 PM on August 27, 2008
Not so. A credit card company will challenge part of a charge if that part was unwarranted.
posted by Taken Outtacontext at 1:25 PM on August 27, 2008
Charging thousands for a bottle of wine is an old scam. Great wine can cost that much and so they say that's what you drank. They're professional scammers and they will almost certainly have the receipts and your signature.
That said, they are scammers so at least make it difficult for them and drag out the process. You might just win or retrieve some money by querying every part of it.
posted by holloway at 3:43 PM on August 27, 2008
That said, they are scammers so at least make it difficult for them and drag out the process. You might just win or retrieve some money by querying every part of it.
I don't care if you want to flame me for it.You're an idiot. Take cash to town, not gold bars or your modern creditcard equivalent.
posted by holloway at 3:43 PM on August 27, 2008
I'm with TigerCrane. Similar thing happened to me in Mexico -- though it was an AKA Joe. (Remember those?) The charges came off and it was really no big deal.
posted by Work to Live at 4:53 PM on August 27, 2008
posted by Work to Live at 4:53 PM on August 27, 2008
If it were me, I would pay the first $500 charge and dispute all subsequent charges.
posted by kattyann at 6:34 PM on August 27, 2008
posted by kattyann at 6:34 PM on August 27, 2008
At a slightly upscale strip club in Dallas, $500 is nothing for a couple of hours. Not to mention the private room and the booze (In Dallas at the time, full stripping meant you brought your own liquor as you couldn't buy it in the club, and bought ice and glassware from the club "bar"). Sweetheart, you probably owe it. I'm with those that say you underestimated.
But hey, you've disputed it, and you're willing to let the chips fall where they may with regards to the credit card company's decision?
Lesson learned: Don't ever whip out the credit card when drunk. An ex-girlfriend of mine did that at a strip club once, but it was the corporate card. Luuucy, you got some splainin' to do.
posted by tejolote at 1:15 AM on August 28, 2008
But hey, you've disputed it, and you're willing to let the chips fall where they may with regards to the credit card company's decision?
Lesson learned: Don't ever whip out the credit card when drunk. An ex-girlfriend of mine did that at a strip club once, but it was the corporate card. Luuucy, you got some splainin' to do.
posted by tejolote at 1:15 AM on August 28, 2008
The smart thing is to dispute everything and let them prove that you authorized the charges. You might get lucky and get your money back. It certainly can't hurt.
But you'd be a real turd if you got away with it.
posted by tejolote at 1:17 AM on August 28, 2008
But you'd be a real turd if you got away with it.
posted by tejolote at 1:17 AM on August 28, 2008
Fraud departments aren't really set up to deal with "partially valid" purchases. They kind of expect an all-or-nothing deal.
Bzzt! No, one of the most common things credit card fraud departments deal with is duplicate charging (whether by mistake or as a rip-off). I've gone around with this twice with restaurant charges: one place I think really did it by accident (they called me to apologize and sent a gift certificate) and the other place was just a rip-off joint that's done this to others I know.
It's very, very usual for someone who has a series of separate charges posted on the same day from the same vendor to question whether all of the charges are accurate.
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:14 AM on August 28, 2008
Bzzt! No, one of the most common things credit card fraud departments deal with is duplicate charging (whether by mistake or as a rip-off). I've gone around with this twice with restaurant charges: one place I think really did it by accident (they called me to apologize and sent a gift certificate) and the other place was just a rip-off joint that's done this to others I know.
It's very, very usual for someone who has a series of separate charges posted on the same day from the same vendor to question whether all of the charges are accurate.
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:14 AM on August 28, 2008
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What price did you agree to?
posted by Cat Pie Hurts at 8:18 AM on August 27, 2008