Why
August 9, 2008 11:02 AM Subscribe
Why did Bernie Mac die of pneumonia? In other words why can't we keep a 50 year old dying of pneumonia in this day and age?
Wikipedia's section on pneumonia prognosis and mortality. Not sure where you get this idea that pneumonia is no worse than a papercut. It's still an illness to take seriously.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 11:11 AM on August 9, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Solon and Thanks at 11:11 AM on August 9, 2008 [1 favorite]
Pneumonia is a common illness which occurs in all age groups (with men at an increased risk of dying from it than women), and is a leading cause of death among the elderly and people who are chronically ill. He was said to be in remission from sarcoidosis disease which is an autoimmune disorder and that such was not the cuase of the pneumonia. I wonder, though, if his general health declined and recovery from the pnemonia was compromised.
posted by ericb at 11:14 AM on August 9, 2008
posted by ericb at 11:14 AM on August 9, 2008
A lot of adults ignore the symptoms of a upper respiratory tract infection til it's too late, that's pretty much what happened to Jim Henson.
posted by jedrek at 11:15 AM on August 9, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by jedrek at 11:15 AM on August 9, 2008 [1 favorite]
"Pneumonia" is a medical term that means "inflammation of the lung". It's a symptom, and it's something that can be life threatening. It can be caused by a lot of kinds of things. There are viral pneumonias, bacterial pneumonias, and other kinds caused by other things. "Pneumonia" isn't the name of a specific disease.
There are a lot of kinds of pneumonia that can be cured.
There are some that cannot be. For instance: if someone drinks gasoline, it gets absorbed into their blood in the intestine and then evaporates out into the air through their lungs, causing fatal pneumonia.
I don't think that's how Bernie Mac died, of course. But the point is that not all causes of pneumonia can be treated.
posted by Class Goat at 11:17 AM on August 9, 2008
There are a lot of kinds of pneumonia that can be cured.
There are some that cannot be. For instance: if someone drinks gasoline, it gets absorbed into their blood in the intestine and then evaporates out into the air through their lungs, causing fatal pneumonia.
I don't think that's how Bernie Mac died, of course. But the point is that not all causes of pneumonia can be treated.
posted by Class Goat at 11:17 AM on August 9, 2008
Some patients with HIV/AIDS or other autoimmune disorders die due to Pneumocystis Pneumonia (PCP).
posted by ericb at 11:18 AM on August 9, 2008
posted by ericb at 11:18 AM on August 9, 2008
Response by poster: Not sure where you get this idea that pneumonia is no worse than a papercut.
Where did you get the impression I was comparing it to a paper cut? I am fully aware it is very serious illness, it just seems to me that in this day and age of super drugs and bypass machines we can't keep a 50 year old alive long enough to beat the infection.
posted by darkmatter at 11:22 AM on August 9, 2008
Where did you get the impression I was comparing it to a paper cut? I am fully aware it is very serious illness, it just seems to me that in this day and age of super drugs and bypass machines we can't keep a 50 year old alive long enough to beat the infection.
posted by darkmatter at 11:22 AM on August 9, 2008
Also re:pneumonia and "this day and age," bacterial infections are becoming more resistant to standard Western over-medication. Don't be surprised by comebacks of new strains of "old" diseases that were once easily treatable. Not to mention additional complications that can arise, as others pointed out, and many many people don't get treated early in a set of symptoms.
posted by Ky at 11:22 AM on August 9, 2008
posted by Ky at 11:22 AM on August 9, 2008
. . .we can't keep a 50 year old alive long enough to beat the infection.
The problem is that some pneumonias are not the result of infection and are idiopathic inflamation of parts of the lung. BOOP is a classic example of this.
posted by Neiltupper at 11:41 AM on August 9, 2008
The problem is that some pneumonias are not the result of infection and are idiopathic inflamation of parts of the lung. BOOP is a classic example of this.
posted by Neiltupper at 11:41 AM on August 9, 2008
As jedrek points out, the flipside of modern medical capability is that people often don't take symptoms seriously when they should. Someone I know died of pneumonia a few years ago around age 30, probably in part because she put off going to the hospital for so long (for reasons which seemed reasonable at the time...).
posted by hattifattener at 11:50 AM on August 9, 2008
posted by hattifattener at 11:50 AM on August 9, 2008
I've had pneumonia 11 or 12 times, and Legionnaire's Disease once. (Apparently once you get pneumonia, all cold and flu germs head straight for your lungs.) Anyway, there are different types of pneumonia (bacterial and viral), and many strains are resistant to certain types of antibiotics. If the patient isn't prescribed a stronger/different antibiotic in time, it's conceivable that he'll die of pneumonia. And sometimes even with proper treatment an unforseen complication can occur (sometimes a sudden bout of coughing is so intense and unrelentant that the patient can't catch his breath and ultimately suffocates.)
posted by Oriole Adams at 11:50 AM on August 9, 2008
posted by Oriole Adams at 11:50 AM on August 9, 2008
Some patients with HIV/AIDS or other autoimmune disorders die due to Pneumocystis Pneumonia (PCP).
And sarcoidosis is an autoimmune disorder.
posted by rhizome at 11:52 AM on August 9, 2008
And sarcoidosis is an autoimmune disorder.
posted by rhizome at 11:52 AM on August 9, 2008
Where did you get the impression I was comparing it to a paper cut? I am fully aware it is very serious illness, it just seems to me that in this day and age of super drugs and bypass machines we can't keep a 50 year old alive long enough to beat the infection.
I don't mean to be snide or start an argument, but it just seemed like you were taking pneumonia lightly. I got that impression because you seemed to find it strange that someone would die of an illness that is a major cause of death in many nations and is still a threat even in our medically advanced one, as the Wikipedia page details.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 11:56 AM on August 9, 2008
I don't mean to be snide or start an argument, but it just seemed like you were taking pneumonia lightly. I got that impression because you seemed to find it strange that someone would die of an illness that is a major cause of death in many nations and is still a threat even in our medically advanced one, as the Wikipedia page details.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 11:56 AM on August 9, 2008
FWIW, pneumonia used to be called the elderly's friend. People who were very old and sick, at the end of their life, were often carried off by pneumonia, and it was considered a blessing.
posted by vilcxjo_BLANKA at 12:03 PM on August 9, 2008
posted by vilcxjo_BLANKA at 12:03 PM on August 9, 2008
this day and age of super drugs
...is precisely part of the problem, because it's helped created drug-resistant superbugs.
posted by scody at 12:43 PM on August 9, 2008
...is precisely part of the problem, because it's helped created drug-resistant superbugs.
posted by scody at 12:43 PM on August 9, 2008
Okay, for the record, there's no indication that he died of a drug resistant strain. I don't think we know what, exactly, he died of.
Much more likely is that he battled sarcoidosis for a long time, which resembles the symptoms for pneumonia. Either he was weakened by sarcoidosis, or assuming he was merely exhibiting symptoms of a disease he had previously, he did not get to the hospital in time.
50 is no spring chicken, even if people like Madonna seem to look perpetually 31.
posted by geoff. at 12:58 PM on August 9, 2008
Much more likely is that he battled sarcoidosis for a long time, which resembles the symptoms for pneumonia. Either he was weakened by sarcoidosis, or assuming he was merely exhibiting symptoms of a disease he had previously, he did not get to the hospital in time.
50 is no spring chicken, even if people like Madonna seem to look perpetually 31.
posted by geoff. at 12:58 PM on August 9, 2008
If Bernie Mac had sarcoidosis, it's likely he got treatment for it, which may have been something like Prednisone. Prednisone is an immune suppressant, which makes it harder for your body to fight off infections. So his lungs may have been predisposed to injury due to that. Secondly, if he ever smoked, his lungs would also be predisposed to injury.
I would suspect that his chronic autoimmune problems and the treatment for that probably put him at greater risk for developing a pneumonia, and also likely made it more difficult for his immune system to fight it and his body to recover from it.
posted by sarahnade at 1:10 PM on August 9, 2008
I would suspect that his chronic autoimmune problems and the treatment for that probably put him at greater risk for developing a pneumonia, and also likely made it more difficult for his immune system to fight it and his body to recover from it.
posted by sarahnade at 1:10 PM on August 9, 2008
Okay, for the record, there's no indication that he died of a drug resistant strain. I don't think we know what, exactly, he died of.
And that's not what I was implying. I was responding to the OP's mention of "this day and age of super-drugs" which appeared to be made without the understanding (or at least the acknowledgment) that super-drugs themselves have created a whole host of serious medical problems for which a solution doesn't presently exist.
posted by scody at 1:42 PM on August 9, 2008
And that's not what I was implying. I was responding to the OP's mention of "this day and age of super-drugs" which appeared to be made without the understanding (or at least the acknowledgment) that super-drugs themselves have created a whole host of serious medical problems for which a solution doesn't presently exist.
posted by scody at 1:42 PM on August 9, 2008
From what I understood, Henson was Christian Scientist, or some variant thereof, and refused medical treatment for his pneumonia, rather than just never got around to getting it treated. I remember hearing about that very clearly, as he was my childhood idol/hero, and I felt very betrayed by what I saw at the time as his stunning selfishness in depriving the world (and me) of his genius. Granted, that's an incredibly selfish point of view, but I was a child. And I still think that way.
Still, people can, and do, die from pneumonia daily. It's one of those things that you don't usually realize by yourself that you've got it, and if you're someone who avoids going to doctors, even when you're obviously sick, it can get a pretty fair head start on killing you.
posted by Ghidorah at 2:43 PM on August 9, 2008
Still, people can, and do, die from pneumonia daily. It's one of those things that you don't usually realize by yourself that you've got it, and if you're someone who avoids going to doctors, even when you're obviously sick, it can get a pretty fair head start on killing you.
posted by Ghidorah at 2:43 PM on August 9, 2008
Ky: "bacterial infections are becoming more resistant to standard Western over-medication"
I'm not quibbling with your assertion that bacterial strains are tending to develop more widespread polydrug resistance, but I think your equivocally blaming medicine is a straw man. The majority (some 70-80%) of antibiotic use by bulk volume in the environment is on livestock, to enhance milk yields and weight gain during feeding, before slaughter. Medical use of antibiotics is reasonably well controlled and studied but, given the massive misuse of them by meat farming, I think it's probable that the majority of antibiotic evolution occurs (or, to be more exact, continually re-occurs) mostly as a consequence of people's appetite for cheap meat and cheese. Lax hygiene and sterilisation procedures in medical centres and hospitals can then result in the establishment of persistent, polydrug-resistant colonies in areas where many sick people congregate. But much of the development of the resistance happens outside these centres. Still, though, hospitals are a dangerous place, especially for anyone with a compromised or suppresed immune system.
posted by meehawl at 2:51 PM on August 9, 2008 [1 favorite]
I'm not quibbling with your assertion that bacterial strains are tending to develop more widespread polydrug resistance, but I think your equivocally blaming medicine is a straw man. The majority (some 70-80%) of antibiotic use by bulk volume in the environment is on livestock, to enhance milk yields and weight gain during feeding, before slaughter. Medical use of antibiotics is reasonably well controlled and studied but, given the massive misuse of them by meat farming, I think it's probable that the majority of antibiotic evolution occurs (or, to be more exact, continually re-occurs) mostly as a consequence of people's appetite for cheap meat and cheese. Lax hygiene and sterilisation procedures in medical centres and hospitals can then result in the establishment of persistent, polydrug-resistant colonies in areas where many sick people congregate. But much of the development of the resistance happens outside these centres. Still, though, hospitals are a dangerous place, especially for anyone with a compromised or suppresed immune system.
posted by meehawl at 2:51 PM on August 9, 2008 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Without access to medical records it is impossible to say why he couldn't be saved; even with access to the records it might not be possible. I have taken care of a few healthy adults that were admitted with pneumonia that for whatever reason developed some combination of ARDS, toxic shock, sepsis, and/or SIRS that spiraled down into multiorgan failure and death. An underlying serious illness like sarcoid definitely would not help. The bottom line is that despite what many people think, we are a long way from conquering infectious disease. Indeed, some would argue that most of the increase in health over the past century or so has come more from public health measures such as improved sewage treatment than treating specific diseases.
posted by TedW at 3:11 PM on August 9, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by TedW at 3:11 PM on August 9, 2008 [2 favorites]
Some patients with HIV/AIDS or other autoimmune disorders die due to Pneumocystis Pneumonia (PCP)
For quite a while in the eighties and early nineties, pneumonia as a cause of death was a sign that someone closeted had died of AIDS. That practice seems to be less frequent now.
Not meaning to imply anything with regards to Mr. Mac, just expanding on ericb's comment.
posted by sixswitch at 3:38 PM on August 9, 2008
For quite a while in the eighties and early nineties, pneumonia as a cause of death was a sign that someone closeted had died of AIDS. That practice seems to be less frequent now.
Not meaning to imply anything with regards to Mr. Mac, just expanding on ericb's comment.
posted by sixswitch at 3:38 PM on August 9, 2008
it just seems to me that in this day and age of super drugs and bypass machines we can't keep a 50 year old alive long enough to beat the infection.
Well, people die from totally preventable things everyday. I'm not sure why a sick person should be any different, you know? Our medical knowledge and technology is good and getting better all the time, but remember, it doesn't take much to kill a person.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:17 PM on August 9, 2008
Well, people die from totally preventable things everyday. I'm not sure why a sick person should be any different, you know? Our medical knowledge and technology is good and getting better all the time, but remember, it doesn't take much to kill a person.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:17 PM on August 9, 2008
Dispelling the Henson rumors...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Henson#Death
posted by gjc at 6:28 PM on August 9, 2008
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Henson#Death
posted by gjc at 6:28 PM on August 9, 2008
Forgot to mention- the last time I had pneumonia, it struck very quickly. In the course of 6 hours, I went from "hmm, I think I have a cold coming on" to "if this gets any worse, I'm going to the hospital." Luckily, I was able to phone the doctor and get some Cipro and spent the next 24 hours huddled over the heat vent in a cold sweat.
posted by gjc at 6:31 PM on August 9, 2008
posted by gjc at 6:31 PM on August 9, 2008
Bernie Mac had just gotten out of the hospital right before he went back into it - having been treated there for pneumonia. That suggests that whatever kind of pneumonia killed him, it was likely antibiotic resistant.
It's true that Bernie Mac had sarcoidosis, which is a disease that can really make a god-awful mess out of your lungs. Any kind of underlying lung disease makes pneumonia that much more serious. I have watched several patients with sarcoid succumb to pneumonia despite best efforts; it is always sad but not particularly unexpected. I liked Bernie Mac's films a lot and it's sad to lose him so early.
posted by ikkyu2 at 8:31 PM on August 9, 2008
It's true that Bernie Mac had sarcoidosis, which is a disease that can really make a god-awful mess out of your lungs. Any kind of underlying lung disease makes pneumonia that much more serious. I have watched several patients with sarcoid succumb to pneumonia despite best efforts; it is always sad but not particularly unexpected. I liked Bernie Mac's films a lot and it's sad to lose him so early.
posted by ikkyu2 at 8:31 PM on August 9, 2008
My dad had near-lethal pneumonia when I was ten. He thought it was a bad flu up until he started coughing up significant amounts of blood. Even then, he resisted going to the hospital; it was a stressful time at work and he just couldn't see a way to miss a few days.
Once he went to the hospital, they kept him there for a long time. Watch out for innocuous flus.
posted by crinklebat at 9:38 PM on August 9, 2008
Once he went to the hospital, they kept him there for a long time. Watch out for innocuous flus.
posted by crinklebat at 9:38 PM on August 9, 2008
In other words why can't we keep a 50 year old dying of pneumonia in this day and age?
The average healthy 50 year old, we probably can. Bernie Mac, however, was someone with a serious chronic illness and therefore cannot be considered average. Having a disease, particularly an autoimmune disease like sarcoidosis, probably cut his life expectancy in half the day he was diagnosed. (Indeed, 75% of sarcoidosis patients die by age 60.) This is a reality even in the 21st century.
Adding to Bernie Mac's statistical challenges were his race (blacks in the U.S. have a lower life expectancy by five years) and social circumstances (growing up in a single-parent home, working various odd jobs and struggling on the road as a comic, and notably raising his sister's kids).
It's possible that even with the best, most attentive care, he could still have died from this. Pneumonia, as noted, is a condition with a high mortality rate even for younger people.
Now, there is a broader question, I suppose. Are there characteristics of pneumonia that we can research and fight? There are vaccines for bacterial pneumonia, and Mac may well have been given one considering his condition. But pneumonia has a possibility of infecting other organs and once it's in the bloodstream it is probably very difficult to treat.
posted by dhartung at 10:46 PM on August 9, 2008
The average healthy 50 year old, we probably can. Bernie Mac, however, was someone with a serious chronic illness and therefore cannot be considered average. Having a disease, particularly an autoimmune disease like sarcoidosis, probably cut his life expectancy in half the day he was diagnosed. (Indeed, 75% of sarcoidosis patients die by age 60.) This is a reality even in the 21st century.
Adding to Bernie Mac's statistical challenges were his race (blacks in the U.S. have a lower life expectancy by five years) and social circumstances (growing up in a single-parent home, working various odd jobs and struggling on the road as a comic, and notably raising his sister's kids).
It's possible that even with the best, most attentive care, he could still have died from this. Pneumonia, as noted, is a condition with a high mortality rate even for younger people.
Now, there is a broader question, I suppose. Are there characteristics of pneumonia that we can research and fight? There are vaccines for bacterial pneumonia, and Mac may well have been given one considering his condition. But pneumonia has a possibility of infecting other organs and once it's in the bloodstream it is probably very difficult to treat.
posted by dhartung at 10:46 PM on August 9, 2008
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by geoff. at 11:05 AM on August 9, 2008