Is there a way to give a dog a safe indoor place away from a cat?
May 23, 2008 8:08 AM Subscribe
Is there a way to give a dog a safe indoor place away from a cat?
My girlfriend has a ~23 pound, 7.5 year old Rat Terrier (Ralph) and I have ~13 pound, 1 year old cat (Jimmy). She stays at my house half the time, and brings the dog.
The two animals get along fine most of the time, Ralph mostly just ignores the cat. Jimmy sometimes bats at the dog, but then loses interest.
The problem comes when Ralph is trying to rest or sleep. During this time, he wants the cat to stay away from him. He'll growl, and if the cat continues to come toward him (he usually does if we don't distract him), he will jump up and bark and try to bite the cat. Ralph has never given chase, but we've always been there to yell at him and punish him (and Jimmy).
Ralph goes to bed with us (under the covers) as soon as we go to bed. Jimmy comes later, after he's finished being a kitty. Sometimes Jimmy wants to sleep under the covers, and I try to keep him quarantined to my side of the bed away from Ralph. For fear of him not being able to escape if a fight breaks out.
Should I worry about any of this when we start leaving the cat and dog alone for long periods of time (when we're both at work)? The dog usually sleeps under covers somewhere when he's alone for a while.
I was considering getting an indoor invisible fence system for the cat, so the dog had an area he could sleep in peace when we're away. Has anyone tried these? The receivers that go on the cat look huge, and I'm not sure I want my cat to have to wear that all the time unless it's necessary.
My girlfriend has a ~23 pound, 7.5 year old Rat Terrier (Ralph) and I have ~13 pound, 1 year old cat (Jimmy). She stays at my house half the time, and brings the dog.
The two animals get along fine most of the time, Ralph mostly just ignores the cat. Jimmy sometimes bats at the dog, but then loses interest.
The problem comes when Ralph is trying to rest or sleep. During this time, he wants the cat to stay away from him. He'll growl, and if the cat continues to come toward him (he usually does if we don't distract him), he will jump up and bark and try to bite the cat. Ralph has never given chase, but we've always been there to yell at him and punish him (and Jimmy).
Ralph goes to bed with us (under the covers) as soon as we go to bed. Jimmy comes later, after he's finished being a kitty. Sometimes Jimmy wants to sleep under the covers, and I try to keep him quarantined to my side of the bed away from Ralph. For fear of him not being able to escape if a fight breaks out.
Should I worry about any of this when we start leaving the cat and dog alone for long periods of time (when we're both at work)? The dog usually sleeps under covers somewhere when he's alone for a while.
I was considering getting an indoor invisible fence system for the cat, so the dog had an area he could sleep in peace when we're away. Has anyone tried these? The receivers that go on the cat look huge, and I'm not sure I want my cat to have to wear that all the time unless it's necessary.
We use 3 baby gates. We stack them on top of one another to keep the cats from climbing over them. Sounds extreme but it only takes a minute to put them up or down. We use the kind that stay in place by exerting pressure out to the side, not the ones that hinge on eye bolts on the side of a doorway. That way they can be used in any doorway, at any time.
posted by hecho de la basura at 8:38 AM on May 23, 2008
posted by hecho de la basura at 8:38 AM on May 23, 2008
Maybe I'm missing the problem here, but if they normally get along, why not let them sort it out themselves? By always intervening you're keeping the cat from learning a lesson that the dog is not to be bothered with while he's sleeping. That would be fine if cats were actually trainable, but since they tend to do whatever they want, it might be better to let him learn the hard way.
posted by toomuchpete at 8:45 AM on May 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by toomuchpete at 8:45 AM on May 23, 2008 [1 favorite]
I second toomuchpete, as long as Jimmy has his claws and can defend himself if he really needs too.
posted by iknowizbirfmark at 8:47 AM on May 23, 2008
posted by iknowizbirfmark at 8:47 AM on May 23, 2008
I third toomuchpete. The dog probably won't really hurt the cat, just teach him a lesson. Invisible fence is overkill. If it turns out that the dog truly has murder on his mind, you can always crate train him, which would be beneficial in a dozen other ways as well.
posted by HotToddy at 8:51 AM on May 23, 2008
posted by HotToddy at 8:51 AM on May 23, 2008
You could use a door to enclose one of them in a room, but I can't imagine any way you could make a dog-permeable membrane that is not also cat-permeable (other way around is easy). If there's no convenient door, then you could do something similar to what hecho suggests, but make sure the cat truly cannot jump over such a stack (maybe angle them slightly in the direction of the cat so climbing is not an option). If you're trying to block off an area that the cat normally goes, then they will certainly try. One of our cats probably could probably get his claws on top of the top gate and pull himself up from there, but he's pretty athletic. If you want a more permanent solution, you can train the cat not to enter a certain area. It is quite possible, but it requires constant vigilance for a week to a month. In other words, any time you're not there to shoo them off (squirt guns work well), the door should be closed or the area otherwise physically inaccessible.
Ultimately, I think it's likely that the animals will learn to tolerate each other at least to the degree that there's very little chance of anything really dreadful happening. The dog already seems unlikely to provoke the cat, and despite popular wisdom, the cat will probably learn to leave the dog alone. It may take awhile.
posted by ErWenn at 8:53 AM on May 23, 2008
Ultimately, I think it's likely that the animals will learn to tolerate each other at least to the degree that there's very little chance of anything really dreadful happening. The dog already seems unlikely to provoke the cat, and despite popular wisdom, the cat will probably learn to leave the dog alone. It may take awhile.
posted by ErWenn at 8:53 AM on May 23, 2008
Does the cat have claws? He'll be fine. If cat antagonizes dog, and dog responds, the cat will swat him and dog will have bloody nose. End of fight. (You'll want to have cornstarch on hand because dog noses bleed incredibly profusely - but no lasting damage.)
posted by desjardins at 8:55 AM on May 23, 2008
posted by desjardins at 8:55 AM on May 23, 2008
Response by poster: Thanks for the advice so far.
The dog is crate trained in the sense that he has a crate, and he will go to it when told (he's actually very well trained overall). We have to keep the crate closed when he's not inside, or the cat goes inside it right away and sleeps. But we don't leave him in there when we're gone all day. That's not really a valid option for us. He doesn't cause any problems when he's free all day and alone.
The cat does have his claws (which I trim every 2 weeks), but they're sharp enough for defense still).
I'm hoping those of you who say they'll just work it out themselves are right. This gives me hope and comfort in leaving them alone for longer in the future.
posted by wukkuan at 9:11 AM on May 23, 2008
The dog is crate trained in the sense that he has a crate, and he will go to it when told (he's actually very well trained overall). We have to keep the crate closed when he's not inside, or the cat goes inside it right away and sleeps. But we don't leave him in there when we're gone all day. That's not really a valid option for us. He doesn't cause any problems when he's free all day and alone.
The cat does have his claws (which I trim every 2 weeks), but they're sharp enough for defense still).
I'm hoping those of you who say they'll just work it out themselves are right. This gives me hope and comfort in leaving them alone for longer in the future.
posted by wukkuan at 9:11 AM on May 23, 2008
I would agree that they should be able to work it out themselves (perhaps monitor at first to make sure they don't get out of control, but don't break it up unless one seems at significant risk; animals play rough.
I did want to address one other point, though, in case someone finds it useful:
ErWenn: "You could use a door to enclose one of them in a room, but I can't imagine any way you could make a dog-permeable membrane that is not also cat-permeable (other way around is easy)...."
They actually make electronic animal doors which use a magnet or RFID chip on one animal's collar to ensure they only open for the correct animal. You could very easily create an area behind this type of door for which the dog has a chip and the cat does not. Please note that I know nothing about the particular company to which I linked (I merely searched for "electronic dog door"), but these devices seem to be readily available.
posted by JMOZ at 10:55 AM on May 23, 2008
I did want to address one other point, though, in case someone finds it useful:
ErWenn: "You could use a door to enclose one of them in a room, but I can't imagine any way you could make a dog-permeable membrane that is not also cat-permeable (other way around is easy)...."
They actually make electronic animal doors which use a magnet or RFID chip on one animal's collar to ensure they only open for the correct animal. You could very easily create an area behind this type of door for which the dog has a chip and the cat does not. Please note that I know nothing about the particular company to which I linked (I merely searched for "electronic dog door"), but these devices seem to be readily available.
posted by JMOZ at 10:55 AM on May 23, 2008
Sounds to me like there's a pretty big territory issue here. Your house is the cat's territory.
I was going to say that my Ratties (who were there first) made it clear to the cat that their crate was NOT a welcome place for Kitteh, but then, they had the territory firmly established when she got there. Since your Kitteh accepts that your place is his domain, he'd be understandably confused about not being welcome in the dog's crate.
You may have some luck due to the breed: Rat Terriers are wicked smart and VERY trainable. You could probably train him to use some sort of magnetic latch system in a matter of a couple of weeks. Also, if the Ratty hasn't decided already that the cat is prey, he probably won't do worse than a quick warning cuff. (My girl with no front teeth [rescued from a puppy mil. damn millers!] has given Kitteh a couple of bald patches. They grew back. Kids get along 90% of the time.)
posted by foxydot at 11:09 AM on May 23, 2008
I was going to say that my Ratties (who were there first) made it clear to the cat that their crate was NOT a welcome place for Kitteh, but then, they had the territory firmly established when she got there. Since your Kitteh accepts that your place is his domain, he'd be understandably confused about not being welcome in the dog's crate.
You may have some luck due to the breed: Rat Terriers are wicked smart and VERY trainable. You could probably train him to use some sort of magnetic latch system in a matter of a couple of weeks. Also, if the Ratty hasn't decided already that the cat is prey, he probably won't do worse than a quick warning cuff. (My girl with no front teeth [rescued from a puppy mil. damn millers!] has given Kitteh a couple of bald patches. They grew back. Kids get along 90% of the time.)
posted by foxydot at 11:09 AM on May 23, 2008
I'm also in agreement with toomuchpete.
posted by oneirodynia at 12:51 PM on May 23, 2008
posted by oneirodynia at 12:51 PM on May 23, 2008
I'm not a fan of letting animals work things out for themselves in these kinds of situations, and I'm very uncomfortable about letting dogs and cats be together unsupervised when there's tension between them. Dogs, even rat terriers, have much stronger jaws than cats, and they can kill with one well-placed bite and some shaking. Cats with claws can take out even a big dog's eye, and cats without claws can give a nasty bite that gets infected easily.
Dogs, in general, are much more anxious about confinement than cats. Even dogs who love their crates, and can be left happily for eight hours at a stretch can be claustrophobic about being shut up in one room. Cats are much less claustrophobic. If you put them in a room, they'll find the most comfortable spot and curl up. I would definitely separate them when no one is home to watch them. Put your cat in a room with food, water and a litterbox when you're not there to supervise.
posted by freshwater_pr0n at 8:57 PM on May 23, 2008
Dogs, in general, are much more anxious about confinement than cats. Even dogs who love their crates, and can be left happily for eight hours at a stretch can be claustrophobic about being shut up in one room. Cats are much less claustrophobic. If you put them in a room, they'll find the most comfortable spot and curl up. I would definitely separate them when no one is home to watch them. Put your cat in a room with food, water and a litterbox when you're not there to supervise.
posted by freshwater_pr0n at 8:57 PM on May 23, 2008
"I'm very uncomfortable about letting dogs and cats be together unsupervised when there's tension between them"
I don't think anyone is suggesting this. I know I wasn't.
My thought was to stop being so over-protective. If they're still squabbling over the sleepy-time, then by all means separate them when you can't be around to supervise... but there's no sense in stepping in every time they start to use their animal conflict resolution skills... animals have survived millions of years without us playing mediator -- they have the skills and the instincts to communicate with each other in ways that they understand.
Once they successfully deal with the issue and no longer get aggressively territorial when you're home, then (and not until) it would probably be okay to leave them alone together.
posted by toomuchpete at 8:37 AM on May 24, 2008
I don't think anyone is suggesting this. I know I wasn't.
My thought was to stop being so over-protective. If they're still squabbling over the sleepy-time, then by all means separate them when you can't be around to supervise... but there's no sense in stepping in every time they start to use their animal conflict resolution skills... animals have survived millions of years without us playing mediator -- they have the skills and the instincts to communicate with each other in ways that they understand.
Once they successfully deal with the issue and no longer get aggressively territorial when you're home, then (and not until) it would probably be okay to leave them alone together.
posted by toomuchpete at 8:37 AM on May 24, 2008
Dogs and cats have not lived happily together for millions of years without human intervention. Domesticated canids and housecats are the product of human intervention, and neither of them have even existed until quite recently. There's nothing "natural" about dogs and cats living successfully together in a house. It's a highly unnatural situation.
Wild animals absolutely do not have magical "instincts" that allow them to communicate happily with each other. If they did, they would all have starved and died long ago.
You can have a household in which dogs and cats coexist peacefully - I do, as well. But its the least natural thing in the world.
posted by freshwater_pr0n at 11:00 PM on May 26, 2008
Wild animals absolutely do not have magical "instincts" that allow them to communicate happily with each other. If they did, they would all have starved and died long ago.
You can have a household in which dogs and cats coexist peacefully - I do, as well. But its the least natural thing in the world.
posted by freshwater_pr0n at 11:00 PM on May 26, 2008
Dogs and cats have not lived happily together for millions of years without human intervention. Domesticated canids and housecats are the product of human intervention, and neither of them have even existed until quite recently. There's nothing "natural" about dogs and cats living successfully together in a house. It's a highly unnatural situation.
There's evidence of domestic dogs from at least 14,000 years ago (cats about 8,000 years ago). I don't think domestic dogs are any more "unnatural" than humans living in houses, which is a much more recent adaptation. One of the things that makes domestication possible in animal species is low fear, and high stress tolerance, which also makes them more suitable for integrating with other non-human species in the household.
Wild animals absolutely do not have magical "instincts" that allow them to communicate happily with each other. If they did, they would all have starved and died long ago.
As you just pointed out, domestic dogs and cats are not "wild" species. But to address your argument: communication between animal species is all about getting to eat or avoiding being eaten- survival, in other words. It's usually a one-way communication, often in the form of eavesdropping. It's not a "magical" instinct, it's a documented survival tactic.
posted by oneirodynia at 5:20 PM on May 27, 2008
There's evidence of domestic dogs from at least 14,000 years ago (cats about 8,000 years ago). I don't think domestic dogs are any more "unnatural" than humans living in houses, which is a much more recent adaptation. One of the things that makes domestication possible in animal species is low fear, and high stress tolerance, which also makes them more suitable for integrating with other non-human species in the household.
Wild animals absolutely do not have magical "instincts" that allow them to communicate happily with each other. If they did, they would all have starved and died long ago.
As you just pointed out, domestic dogs and cats are not "wild" species. But to address your argument: communication between animal species is all about getting to eat or avoiding being eaten- survival, in other words. It's usually a one-way communication, often in the form of eavesdropping. It's not a "magical" instinct, it's a documented survival tactic.
posted by oneirodynia at 5:20 PM on May 27, 2008
"Dogs and cats have not lived happily together for millions of years without human intervention."
Don't be silly. Nobody is suggesting that. What I said was (emphasis added): "animals have survived millions of years without us playing mediator." In other words: they have mechanisms (claws, teeth, growling) to let another animal know that they're not welcome. It's entirely possible (and likely) that these animals will set their own boundaries without any serious, lasting harm to each other.
Just in case they can't, they need supervision until they get along.
Also? This is just ridiculous: "Wild animals absolutely do not have magical 'instincts' that allow them to communicate happily with each other. If they did, they would all have starved and died long ago."
First of all, animals communicate with each other constantly. You're right, though, the instincts are not "magical." There are so many examples I scarcely know where to begin. Bright colors on poisonous animals warning predators to stay away, bears growling/being aggressive when other animals come near their cubs, territory marking, and the list goes on and on. Just because they can't talk doesn't mean they don't communicate.
Also, what part of eating requires an animal to be unable to communicate to another animal? That just doesn't make any sense.
posted by toomuchpete at 5:58 PM on May 27, 2008
Don't be silly. Nobody is suggesting that. What I said was (emphasis added): "animals have survived millions of years without us playing mediator." In other words: they have mechanisms (claws, teeth, growling) to let another animal know that they're not welcome. It's entirely possible (and likely) that these animals will set their own boundaries without any serious, lasting harm to each other.
Just in case they can't, they need supervision until they get along.
Also? This is just ridiculous: "Wild animals absolutely do not have magical 'instincts' that allow them to communicate happily with each other. If they did, they would all have starved and died long ago."
First of all, animals communicate with each other constantly. You're right, though, the instincts are not "magical." There are so many examples I scarcely know where to begin. Bright colors on poisonous animals warning predators to stay away, bears growling/being aggressive when other animals come near their cubs, territory marking, and the list goes on and on. Just because they can't talk doesn't mean they don't communicate.
Also, what part of eating requires an animal to be unable to communicate to another animal? That just doesn't make any sense.
posted by toomuchpete at 5:58 PM on May 27, 2008
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posted by pieoverdone at 8:31 AM on May 23, 2008 [1 favorite]