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April 21, 2008 11:13 AM Subscribe
How does one delicately go about bringing up a huge discrepancy in the listed square footage vs. the actual square footage of an apartment in a unit that is for sale by owner?
My SO and I have found an apartment we are very seriously considering putting a bid on. As is my habit, I have taken the dimensions listed on the flyer given out at the open house and calculated the square footage to aid in bidding on a square foot basis using comparable sales in the area. Using the owner's own calculations of the square footage of each room, I have discovered that he has overstated the total square footage of the apartment by almost 200 square feet. This greatly affects the asking price of the apartment and most definitely affects any bid we might make.
I have a call into the owner to feel him out on his flexibility on the price. I don't want to insult him, but I do feel the need to point out that his final square footage calculation based on his own individual measurements per room is confusing. And, well, wrong. How do I broach this subject with an aim toward offering a fair bid for actual square footage rather than the overestimated square footage? The apartment is lovely in every way, in a great area, and we would love to live there for all the right reasons. We're in Brooklyn, so it may be that he's just not going to take less than the asking, but I figured I might appeal to his sense of fairness all the same. It's quite possible this is an honest mistake, after all. We are not, however, going to put in a bid on this place based on phantom square footage. FWIW, comparables in the same building are accurately listed and we know the median price per square foot these places went for in the past several months. Those units have gone for far less than the ask on this unit.
Any suggestions on how to broach the subject, if at all? Thanks.
My SO and I have found an apartment we are very seriously considering putting a bid on. As is my habit, I have taken the dimensions listed on the flyer given out at the open house and calculated the square footage to aid in bidding on a square foot basis using comparable sales in the area. Using the owner's own calculations of the square footage of each room, I have discovered that he has overstated the total square footage of the apartment by almost 200 square feet. This greatly affects the asking price of the apartment and most definitely affects any bid we might make.
I have a call into the owner to feel him out on his flexibility on the price. I don't want to insult him, but I do feel the need to point out that his final square footage calculation based on his own individual measurements per room is confusing. And, well, wrong. How do I broach this subject with an aim toward offering a fair bid for actual square footage rather than the overestimated square footage? The apartment is lovely in every way, in a great area, and we would love to live there for all the right reasons. We're in Brooklyn, so it may be that he's just not going to take less than the asking, but I figured I might appeal to his sense of fairness all the same. It's quite possible this is an honest mistake, after all. We are not, however, going to put in a bid on this place based on phantom square footage. FWIW, comparables in the same building are accurately listed and we know the median price per square foot these places went for in the past several months. Those units have gone for far less than the ask on this unit.
Any suggestions on how to broach the subject, if at all? Thanks.
I don't think you need to worry about being delicate, I'd simply ask how he calculated, because yao are coming up with different numbers.
If you are worried about insulting him, i would first make sure you are right.
If there are realtors involved, it might be easier to let them handle the question.
another thought is call the building owner, or management company, and ask what they have it listed as. you could also pull city / county records on when it was last sold, and see what it is listed as
could be it was wrong all along, and the current owner is simply giving you the information he was given when he bought it
posted by Mr_Chips at 11:20 AM on April 21, 2008
If you are worried about insulting him, i would first make sure you are right.
If there are realtors involved, it might be easier to let them handle the question.
another thought is call the building owner, or management company, and ask what they have it listed as. you could also pull city / county records on when it was last sold, and see what it is listed as
could be it was wrong all along, and the current owner is simply giving you the information he was given when he bought it
posted by Mr_Chips at 11:20 AM on April 21, 2008
This is economics. Just bid a bit under what you think its worth. Let him come to you. Always answer a bid with a movement to him, but as you get to further rounds, reduce the percentage amount that you are coming towards him to signal what you think the place is worth.
posted by Ironmouth at 11:21 AM on April 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Ironmouth at 11:21 AM on April 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
I'd add my vote to you measuring inside dimensions, and he has given the footprint of the property. Therefore all external and internal walls and cupboards will be included in his number. I'm not sure it is necessarily misleading on his part, just a different way of measuring.
posted by Brockles at 11:24 AM on April 21, 2008
posted by Brockles at 11:24 AM on April 21, 2008
I'd add my vote to you measuring inside dimensions, and he has given the footprint of the property.
The numbers are all coming from the seller.
posted by mkultra at 11:37 AM on April 21, 2008
The numbers are all coming from the seller.
posted by mkultra at 11:37 AM on April 21, 2008
I'd add my vote to you measuring inside dimensions, and he has given the footprint of the property. Therefore all external and internal walls and cupboards will be included in his number. I'm not sure it is necessarily misleading on his part, just a different way of measuring.
Thirding this, and also including plumbing/mechanical chases, equipment closets, exterior walls, half of any walls you share with adjacent tenants, etc.
Or there's just a math error on somebody's part. But, as others said, this isn't really anything you need to be really delicate about--just call the dude up, explain how you got your total square footage number and ask if he has any idea why his is different. I've gone out and measured quite a few retail spaces whose tenants didn't think the square footage they were getting from their landlord was accurate, so this isn't an odd issue to come with at all.
posted by LionIndex at 11:38 AM on April 21, 2008
Thirding this, and also including plumbing/mechanical chases, equipment closets, exterior walls, half of any walls you share with adjacent tenants, etc.
Or there's just a math error on somebody's part. But, as others said, this isn't really anything you need to be really delicate about--just call the dude up, explain how you got your total square footage number and ask if he has any idea why his is different. I've gone out and measured quite a few retail spaces whose tenants didn't think the square footage they were getting from their landlord was accurate, so this isn't an odd issue to come with at all.
posted by LionIndex at 11:38 AM on April 21, 2008
Also, is it possible that all the rooms are not perfectly rectangular and have niches or something that wouldn't be included in the overall room dimensions that you used to calculate room square footage?
The numbers are all coming from the seller.
Yes, but they're still just interior dimensions for the rooms, compared with an overall s.f. for the entire apartment. Unless the interior dimensions go to the centerlines of the interior walls, there's going to be a discrepancy when totalling up the figures.
posted by LionIndex at 11:43 AM on April 21, 2008
The numbers are all coming from the seller.
Yes, but they're still just interior dimensions for the rooms, compared with an overall s.f. for the entire apartment. Unless the interior dimensions go to the centerlines of the interior walls, there's going to be a discrepancy when totalling up the figures.
posted by LionIndex at 11:43 AM on April 21, 2008
Using the owner's own calculations of the square footage of each room, I have discovered that he has overstated the total square footage of the apartment by almost 200 square feet.
I think there are two things going on here. First, the dimensions of the rooms do not equal the square footage, which does include the footprint, as noted above.
However, it appears that the comparables are much lower priced as well.
TTT should calculate the "footprint" square footage or contact the management company to get an idea of what the listed square footage should be.
Then make the comparisons and the bid.
posted by Ironmouth at 11:49 AM on April 21, 2008
I think there are two things going on here. First, the dimensions of the rooms do not equal the square footage, which does include the footprint, as noted above.
However, it appears that the comparables are much lower priced as well.
TTT should calculate the "footprint" square footage or contact the management company to get an idea of what the listed square footage should be.
Then make the comparisons and the bid.
posted by Ironmouth at 11:49 AM on April 21, 2008
Check the strata docs to see where the space ends -- outside wall, middle of the wall, edge of the inner wall. Also see if the balcony is included in square footage. You should be able to view the original plans filed with City Hall, which should tell you the square footage.
posted by acoutu at 11:50 AM on April 21, 2008
posted by acoutu at 11:50 AM on April 21, 2008
(I'm the SO of the OP)
Yes, but they're still just interior dimensions for the rooms, compared with an overall s.f. for the entire apartment.
We've considered this, but there isn't much interior wall space, and 200 sqft is way too much to account for that anyway, I'd think. The floor plan, btw, includes dimensions for the hallway, foyer, and closet space.
posted by mkultra at 11:56 AM on April 21, 2008
Yes, but they're still just interior dimensions for the rooms, compared with an overall s.f. for the entire apartment.
We've considered this, but there isn't much interior wall space, and 200 sqft is way too much to account for that anyway, I'd think. The floor plan, btw, includes dimensions for the hallway, foyer, and closet space.
posted by mkultra at 11:56 AM on April 21, 2008
He could also be trying to be overly fair about room size. If a room is not a perfect rectangle some sellers will give the dimensions using the smallest measurements -- picture a closet that protrudes into only part of the room. When I was house-hunting, I came across this a lot and was sometimes pleasantly surprised that a room was bigger than the 8 x 10 or whatever.
As for your approach with the seller, I second Mr. Chips -- just ask. If he can't or won't answer the question, I wouldn't trust him on anything else he has to say.
posted by odragul at 11:57 AM on April 21, 2008
As for your approach with the seller, I second Mr. Chips -- just ask. If he can't or won't answer the question, I wouldn't trust him on anything else he has to say.
posted by odragul at 11:57 AM on April 21, 2008
acoutu: Also see if the balcony is included in square footage.
There is no balcony.
posted by mkultra at 11:58 AM on April 21, 2008
There is no balcony.
posted by mkultra at 11:58 AM on April 21, 2008
Response by poster: Thanks to all. Good suggestions and helpful advice.
I have to step away for awhile - mkultra is my SO and he'll pop in if you guys want anymore info.
posted by TryTheTilapia at 12:01 PM on April 21, 2008
I have to step away for awhile - mkultra is my SO and he'll pop in if you guys want anymore info.
posted by TryTheTilapia at 12:01 PM on April 21, 2008
Don't underestimate the envelope factor -- I recently bought a condo, and the announced square footage includes the walls all the way out to the edges of the bricks. The difference between actual square footage and calculating based on the interiors is over a 100 square feet. 200 doesn't seem totally out of place to me, assuming the apartment's over 1000 square feet in the first place.
posted by jacquilynne at 12:41 PM on April 21, 2008
posted by jacquilynne at 12:41 PM on April 21, 2008
We've considered this, but there isn't much interior wall space, and 200 sqft is way too much to account for that anyway, I'd think. The floor plan, btw, includes dimensions for the hallway, foyer, and closet space.
You only need 400 linear feet of interior wall and you're there. Your exterior and shared walls will most likely be thicker than those, and that still doesn't account for the odd utility chase.
Nonetheless, I don't think this is an issue you need to be overly delicate about with the landlord--I'd feel pretty comfortable just asking about the discrepancy between your number and his.
posted by LionIndex at 1:13 PM on April 21, 2008
You only need 400 linear feet of interior wall and you're there. Your exterior and shared walls will most likely be thicker than those, and that still doesn't account for the odd utility chase.
Nonetheless, I don't think this is an issue you need to be overly delicate about with the landlord--I'd feel pretty comfortable just asking about the discrepancy between your number and his.
posted by LionIndex at 1:13 PM on April 21, 2008
You can always calculate by what percentage he fudged the numbers and reduce the asking price by the same percentage. And then make an offer against that.
posted by Brian Puccio at 2:47 PM on April 21, 2008
posted by Brian Puccio at 2:47 PM on April 21, 2008
Around here, at least, real estate agents use the outside measurement for each room, so if the room is 10 x 10 and the walls are 1 foot thick, then it's put down as 11 x 11. The same is done for each room, so the space occupied by the interior walls gets double-counted in the total.
Anyway, unless you're the only one showing any interest in the property, I'm not sure it's worth bringing up. You're either offering more or less money than somebody else is and that's the deciding factor.
posted by winston at 6:04 PM on April 21, 2008
Anyway, unless you're the only one showing any interest in the property, I'm not sure it's worth bringing up. You're either offering more or less money than somebody else is and that's the deciding factor.
posted by winston at 6:04 PM on April 21, 2008
I disagree with sondrialiac. Your bid is part of a negotiation. To make a successful deal, you need to be on the same page. If you want the seller to appreciate the value of your bid instead of take it as a slap in the face, it's important that you two share the same understanding of the price-per-SF being offered. Right now you believe one of you will be negotiating with wrong info. You suspect it's him. Either way, the number needs to be clarified.
Measuring square footage of homes is a complex art, partly because legal definitions vary and partly because of all the little triangles formed by walls that aren't as square and plumb as they visually appear. In all likelihood, you've both counted wrong. If you want an accurate number, hire an appraiser, ask the seller for a copy of the apartment's most recent appraisal report, or make the bid contingent on your lender's appraisal coming between X and Y square feet, where X and Y keep your final price per square foot within the range set by the comparables.
comparables in the same building are accurately listed
Eh. It's VERY common for units in same building, same blueprints, even stacked right on top of each other, to differ a bit in actual dimensions. Contractors are always having to adapt for one problem, then adapt for the next set of variations that generates. The net effect is no twosnowflakes units are exactly the same.
posted by nakedcodemonkey at 6:06 PM on April 21, 2008
Measuring square footage of homes is a complex art, partly because legal definitions vary and partly because of all the little triangles formed by walls that aren't as square and plumb as they visually appear. In all likelihood, you've both counted wrong. If you want an accurate number, hire an appraiser, ask the seller for a copy of the apartment's most recent appraisal report, or make the bid contingent on your lender's appraisal coming between X and Y square feet, where X and Y keep your final price per square foot within the range set by the comparables.
comparables in the same building are accurately listed
Eh. It's VERY common for units in same building, same blueprints, even stacked right on top of each other, to differ a bit in actual dimensions. Contractors are always having to adapt for one problem, then adapt for the next set of variations that generates. The net effect is no two
posted by nakedcodemonkey at 6:06 PM on April 21, 2008
If he lists total sqft, and sqft for each room, are you sure he included all the rooms? Did he list hallways, closets, etc?
posted by blue_beetle at 6:12 AM on April 22, 2008
posted by blue_beetle at 6:12 AM on April 22, 2008
If you had an 11x11 bedroom, a 13x11 bedroom, 2 10x10 bathrooms, and a 10x10 bathroom and those dimensions were actually going 1 ft into the walls, you'd be off by 111 feet and we haven't even got into hallways, closets, stackable laundry or awkward spaces.
posted by acoutu at 5:40 PM on April 22, 2008
posted by acoutu at 5:40 PM on April 22, 2008
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An appraiser would probably be the right person to talk to about methods for measuring, what's conventional, etc.
posted by adamrice at 11:18 AM on April 21, 2008