They're not REALLY black...
March 28, 2008 3:48 PM Subscribe
I live in an apartment. The management and maintenance person of the building are racist. I need help with an issue.
My refrigerator went belly-up overnight so I called the manager and she sent over Racist Maintenance Man. He asked me if I was being bothered by "those people, you know, we've had complaints, and they are outta here on April 1st."
"Those people" live two doors down from me, and I've never had a problem. They're not loud, they mind their own business, and have always been friendly to me. I don't condone their lifestyle, but as I said, they don't affect me. I told him so.
Before maintenance man left he said, "But we have some good ones--the couple down in 108--but they're not really black-black, I think they're from India or something".
I was listening to this and feeling dumbfounded--then as he was walking out the door he said, "Yep, we're getting rid of 'em, one at a time. Trying to clean the place up, ya know".
OK, I want to slip a note under "those peoples'" door and tell them what I think is going on, but I need opinions. If anyone has a better idea, I'm all for it.
My refrigerator went belly-up overnight so I called the manager and she sent over Racist Maintenance Man. He asked me if I was being bothered by "those people, you know, we've had complaints, and they are outta here on April 1st."
"Those people" live two doors down from me, and I've never had a problem. They're not loud, they mind their own business, and have always been friendly to me. I don't condone their lifestyle, but as I said, they don't affect me. I told him so.
Before maintenance man left he said, "But we have some good ones--the couple down in 108--but they're not really black-black, I think they're from India or something".
I was listening to this and feeling dumbfounded--then as he was walking out the door he said, "Yep, we're getting rid of 'em, one at a time. Trying to clean the place up, ya know".
OK, I want to slip a note under "those peoples'" door and tell them what I think is going on, but I need opinions. If anyone has a better idea, I'm all for it.
Do you have any reason to believe the property manager shared the maintenance man's beliefs? It could very well be management tolerates him, but they don't actually intend to "clean the place up." Smiling and nodding might be easier for management than trying to convince the maintenance guy not to be a bigot.
OK, I want to slip a note under "those peoples'" door and tell them what I think is going on, but I need opinions. If anyone has a better idea, I'm all for it.
If you do this, keep it anonymous. As in typed and on unidentifiable paper. Should this end up in court, you could be on the hook for libel.
posted by Nelsormensch at 3:56 PM on March 28, 2008
OK, I want to slip a note under "those peoples'" door and tell them what I think is going on, but I need opinions. If anyone has a better idea, I'm all for it.
If you do this, keep it anonymous. As in typed and on unidentifiable paper. Should this end up in court, you could be on the hook for libel.
posted by Nelsormensch at 3:56 PM on March 28, 2008
Response by poster: About their lifestyle--they like to do massive amounts of drugs.
posted by wafaa at 3:58 PM on March 28, 2008
posted by wafaa at 3:58 PM on March 28, 2008
Response by poster: Do you have any reason to believe the property manager shared the maintenance man's beliefs? It could very well be management tolerates him, but they don't actually intend to "clean the place up."
Yep, I thought that at first but when he told me they had been evicted, I figured that the manager was just as much of a dick.
posted by wafaa at 4:02 PM on March 28, 2008
Yep, I thought that at first but when he told me they had been evicted, I figured that the manager was just as much of a dick.
posted by wafaa at 4:02 PM on March 28, 2008
So they're doing massive amounts of drugs, which is clearly an evictable offense, and you're worried that they're being evicted for the wrong reason? I think you should probably just let this one go.
posted by Justinian at 4:06 PM on March 28, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 4:06 PM on March 28, 2008 [2 favorites]
Ummm...maybe they're being evicted because they like to do "massive amounts of drugs." Just a thought...maintenance man's racist comments aside. I don't want drugs in my building and I don't really care about the color of the people who do them.
posted by notjustfoxybrown at 4:06 PM on March 28, 2008
posted by notjustfoxybrown at 4:06 PM on March 28, 2008
Best answer: Maintenance Man is allowed to think racist thoughts and say racist things. He isn't allowed to do something about it, like kick people out of the building because he's a racist fucktard. If you are friendly with 'those people,' I'd ask them why they're leaving. I'll bet that they're leaving of their own accord, and not because they're getting kicked out, for being black or any other reason. It's pretty hard to force someone to leave an apartment, at least in the state I live in. I'll bet that the Maintenance Man was just running his mouth, and by 'cleaning the place up' he means 'waiting around while tenants he doesn't like leave.'
The thing is, him just saying this to you doesn't mean much of anything, and you repeating it to the people down the hall will only accomplish one thing -- tell 'those people' that there are racist fucktards in the world, which I'm rather positive they're abundantly clear about already. The only person it'll benefit, if I may be blunt, is you -- you'll get to feel self-righteous and heroic and like you've accomplished something for the day. But there isn't anything else that can come of it. The District Attorney isn't going to file a civil rights lawsuit because the maintenance guy said he's happy the black people are moving out and implied he'd like it to happen more often.
I'd be straight up with the landlord. "Hey, your maintenance man is racist and said some pretty awful things about the people in 2F because they're black." From then on, it's up to the landlord to handle.
posted by incessant at 4:09 PM on March 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
The thing is, him just saying this to you doesn't mean much of anything, and you repeating it to the people down the hall will only accomplish one thing -- tell 'those people' that there are racist fucktards in the world, which I'm rather positive they're abundantly clear about already. The only person it'll benefit, if I may be blunt, is you -- you'll get to feel self-righteous and heroic and like you've accomplished something for the day. But there isn't anything else that can come of it. The District Attorney isn't going to file a civil rights lawsuit because the maintenance guy said he's happy the black people are moving out and implied he'd like it to happen more often.
I'd be straight up with the landlord. "Hey, your maintenance man is racist and said some pretty awful things about the people in 2F because they're black." From then on, it's up to the landlord to handle.
posted by incessant at 4:09 PM on March 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
Should this end up in court, you could be on the hook for libel.
I'm not a lawyer, but I do not believe that telling someone that someone else is racist and that you suspect they're being discriminated against qualifies as libel, or even slander.
posted by incessant at 4:11 PM on March 28, 2008
I'm not a lawyer, but I do not believe that telling someone that someone else is racist and that you suspect they're being discriminated against qualifies as libel, or even slander.
posted by incessant at 4:11 PM on March 28, 2008
Response by poster: That's not the point. Yes, they should be evicted for doing massive amounts of drugs. My freak-out was when he said, "but they're not really black-black, I think they're from India or something". I really don't think Management et al. really gives a crap about the drug factor. There's plenty o' White Folk that do the same around here. But to be evicted as part of a "clean-up", WTF?
posted by wafaa at 4:19 PM on March 28, 2008
posted by wafaa at 4:19 PM on March 28, 2008
Well, it sounds like the people that are doing massive amounts of drugs are probably being evicted for reasons not related to their race, so I'd let that go. If you know the people in 108, though, I'd warn them about the maintenance man.
It was great of you to confront the maintenance man's racist assertions, though. Not enough people do that.
posted by ignignokt at 4:21 PM on March 28, 2008
It was great of you to confront the maintenance man's racist assertions, though. Not enough people do that.
posted by ignignokt at 4:21 PM on March 28, 2008
White guy does drugs and gets evicted from building = drugs
Black guy does drugs and gets evicted from building = gentrification
posted by falameufilho at 4:28 PM on March 28, 2008
Black guy does drugs and gets evicted from building = gentrification
posted by falameufilho at 4:28 PM on March 28, 2008
Response by poster: White guy does drugs and gets evicted from building = drugs
Black guy does drugs and gets evicted from building = gentrification
But the white guy is NOT getting evicted!
posted by wafaa at 4:36 PM on March 28, 2008
Black guy does drugs and gets evicted from building = gentrification
But the white guy is NOT getting evicted!
posted by wafaa at 4:36 PM on March 28, 2008
Wrong.
She said there are others "around here" that do the same thing. (I'm guessing she means in the building).
posted by Student of Man at 4:38 PM on March 28, 2008
She said there are others "around here" that do the same thing. (I'm guessing she means in the building).
posted by Student of Man at 4:38 PM on March 28, 2008
Best answer: wafaa, I'm glad you want to take some kind of stance, because regardless of the drug issue, that kind of vicious racism shouldn't stand.
The problem is, I don't know what you could do. Put a note under their door, and you have alerted them, but how can you word it without seeming as if you are bad-mouthing the maintenance man and management (who have the power to evict you)? Or maybe give the wrong idea and make the neighbors think you are in on the whole situation?
Do you have any idea who owns the building? Could you approach them?
Anyway, good on you for your heart being in the right place, whatever you decide to do!
posted by misha at 4:41 PM on March 28, 2008
The problem is, I don't know what you could do. Put a note under their door, and you have alerted them, but how can you word it without seeming as if you are bad-mouthing the maintenance man and management (who have the power to evict you)? Or maybe give the wrong idea and make the neighbors think you are in on the whole situation?
Do you have any idea who owns the building? Could you approach them?
Anyway, good on you for your heart being in the right place, whatever you decide to do!
posted by misha at 4:41 PM on March 28, 2008
Best answer: If you do this, keep it anonymous. As in typed and on unidentifiable paper. Should this end up in court, you could be on the hook for libel.
No, if you are in the United States. Truth is never libel.
Housing discrimination is against the law. This is evidence, perhaps not the strongest, that your landlord is engaging in housing discrimination. A landlord may be able to evict a renter for using illegal drugs. But the landlord cannot evict solely one race of renters on that basis.
Here are the relevant questions: Do you think this is wrong? Do you want to get involved?
If the answers are "yes," then do the following. Tell the renters what you heard. Just the facts. Tell them to get a lawyer and contact either the state or Federal housing/discrimination agencies. Be ready to tell a whole bunch of people in a whole bunch of contexts exactly what you heard.
Be ready for blowback and unintended consequences. That's sometimes what happens when people are courageous.
posted by ferdydurke at 4:42 PM on March 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
No, if you are in the United States. Truth is never libel.
Housing discrimination is against the law. This is evidence, perhaps not the strongest, that your landlord is engaging in housing discrimination. A landlord may be able to evict a renter for using illegal drugs. But the landlord cannot evict solely one race of renters on that basis.
Here are the relevant questions: Do you think this is wrong? Do you want to get involved?
If the answers are "yes," then do the following. Tell the renters what you heard. Just the facts. Tell them to get a lawyer and contact either the state or Federal housing/discrimination agencies. Be ready to tell a whole bunch of people in a whole bunch of contexts exactly what you heard.
Be ready for blowback and unintended consequences. That's sometimes what happens when people are courageous.
posted by ferdydurke at 4:42 PM on March 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thank you, ferdydurke, for understanding my issue. I feel I need to take this one on.
posted by wafaa at 4:51 PM on March 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by wafaa at 4:51 PM on March 28, 2008 [1 favorite]
Are you certain that the management shares the maintenance worker's feelings? Perhaps management is simply taking action against a tenant they've received complaints about and the worker has read more into the situation than is warranted. I think you should complain about the worker to management. It's quite possible that they would be horrified by the guy's comments and take appropriate action to see that he either doesn't do it again or finds another place to work. Just because some racist idiot thinks that management is "getting rid of 'em" doesn't mean that's what is actually happening.
posted by LeeJay at 5:22 PM on March 28, 2008
posted by LeeJay at 5:22 PM on March 28, 2008
If you feel so strongly why didn't you call the maintenance man out as soon as he started spouting racist comments? The maintenance guy is a complete idiot, but that doesn't mean that the management is necessarily discriminating against any tenet.
posted by 26.2 at 6:16 PM on March 28, 2008
posted by 26.2 at 6:16 PM on March 28, 2008
Why don't you think they know or suspect the maintenance man is racist?
posted by elle.jeezy at 7:10 PM on March 28, 2008
posted by elle.jeezy at 7:10 PM on March 28, 2008
I am not a lawyer.
You should take a look at this Department of Housing and Urban Development on the Fair Housing complaint process. One question I had was whether you could even file a complaint, since you probably would not be considered to have been harmed directly by this discrimination (in most legal proceedings, you would be said to lack standing). But, from my understanding of it, you can still file a complaint yourself. If the complaint reaches the stage of being tried though, you probably won't be able to collect personal damages, of course, and I'm guessing you won't be able to have it tried in District Court (see steps 6-8). If you do file a complaint yourself, keep in mind how this will affect the neighbors that were evicted. They may prefer to just keep their privacy, or they may fear for their safety. Your best option, I think, is what ferdyduke said. Tell them what happened. Tell them just the facts. Be willing to testify in court what happened.
Also, RIGHT NOW, go write down what happened with the maintenance man, with no exaggeration, embellishment, artistic license, stylistic fluff, etc. Also write down any related events, like incidents that make you believe the landlord actually is trying to "clean the place up". It would be a good idea to go have it notarized as soon as you get a chance as well, to prove when it was written. Again, I emphasize that I am not a lawyer, but I do not think you should try to "bait" your landlord into admitting that he is, in fact, trying to "clean up" the place. At most, you should tell him what happened with the maintenance man, with just the facts.
posted by gauchodaspampas at 7:10 PM on March 28, 2008
You should take a look at this Department of Housing and Urban Development on the Fair Housing complaint process. One question I had was whether you could even file a complaint, since you probably would not be considered to have been harmed directly by this discrimination (in most legal proceedings, you would be said to lack standing). But, from my understanding of it, you can still file a complaint yourself. If the complaint reaches the stage of being tried though, you probably won't be able to collect personal damages, of course, and I'm guessing you won't be able to have it tried in District Court (see steps 6-8). If you do file a complaint yourself, keep in mind how this will affect the neighbors that were evicted. They may prefer to just keep their privacy, or they may fear for their safety. Your best option, I think, is what ferdyduke said. Tell them what happened. Tell them just the facts. Be willing to testify in court what happened.
Also, RIGHT NOW, go write down what happened with the maintenance man, with no exaggeration, embellishment, artistic license, stylistic fluff, etc. Also write down any related events, like incidents that make you believe the landlord actually is trying to "clean the place up". It would be a good idea to go have it notarized as soon as you get a chance as well, to prove when it was written. Again, I emphasize that I am not a lawyer, but I do not think you should try to "bait" your landlord into admitting that he is, in fact, trying to "clean up" the place. At most, you should tell him what happened with the maintenance man, with just the facts.
posted by gauchodaspampas at 7:10 PM on March 28, 2008
I have to agree with what LeeJay said. I'm as against racism as the next guy, but just the mere fact that the maintenance guy said something doesnt prove racism is going on. He's just a maintenance man for crying out loud, about the only power he has is a power-vacuum with swivel attachment.
Telling the neighbors down the hall and getting yourself involved is going to cause more grief and drama than whats probably existing now. In other words, that course of action has the potential to make you more enemies than it does friends. I'm not saying you shouldnt sometimes stand up and "fight the good fight".. but you should be smart about what fights you pick, and this one (to me) just doesnt seem to have enough solid facts to be worth it.
What I would do is write a polite letter to the management letting them know the things the maintenance man said, and that you are shocked and offended at his apparent attitude. I've known plenty of "old boys club" types that were overtly racist, and any involvement fighting with them always led to escalation, drama and a regret that I should have just minded my own business.
posted by jmnugent at 7:25 PM on March 28, 2008
Telling the neighbors down the hall and getting yourself involved is going to cause more grief and drama than whats probably existing now. In other words, that course of action has the potential to make you more enemies than it does friends. I'm not saying you shouldnt sometimes stand up and "fight the good fight".. but you should be smart about what fights you pick, and this one (to me) just doesnt seem to have enough solid facts to be worth it.
What I would do is write a polite letter to the management letting them know the things the maintenance man said, and that you are shocked and offended at his apparent attitude. I've known plenty of "old boys club" types that were overtly racist, and any involvement fighting with them always led to escalation, drama and a regret that I should have just minded my own business.
posted by jmnugent at 7:25 PM on March 28, 2008
Did you specifically tell the maintenance guy you thought that what he said was offensively racist? Because that would have been the courageous thing to do.
Listen to incessant, gauchodaspampas and jmnugent.
posted by flabdablet at 8:01 PM on March 28, 2008 [2 favorites]
Listen to incessant, gauchodaspampas and jmnugent.
posted by flabdablet at 8:01 PM on March 28, 2008 [2 favorites]
I am not a lawyer.
It doesn't sound like you have much evidence that management is racist, and a note under the door may qualify as libel if your assertions are proven false.
However, if you are serious about this, you may want to contact the Justice Department's Civil Rights division, which has a Housing section devoted to investigating and prosecuting racial discrimination. I don't know how big your management company is and whether the Dep't would be interested in this case, but they may be able to tell you where to turn if they're not. Yes, I know you wouldn't expect much from the Justice Dep't under the current administration, but following the recent scandals it has actually started doing its job again, at least in this area.
Alternatively, you could call your congressperson. Most congresspeople will follow up on pretty much any request, and could either contact the appropriate authorities or tell you who to call. They have staff specifically for this kind of "casework," and have contacts in all layers of government.
posted by walla at 5:47 AM on March 29, 2008
It doesn't sound like you have much evidence that management is racist, and a note under the door may qualify as libel if your assertions are proven false.
However, if you are serious about this, you may want to contact the Justice Department's Civil Rights division, which has a Housing section devoted to investigating and prosecuting racial discrimination. I don't know how big your management company is and whether the Dep't would be interested in this case, but they may be able to tell you where to turn if they're not. Yes, I know you wouldn't expect much from the Justice Dep't under the current administration, but following the recent scandals it has actually started doing its job again, at least in this area.
Alternatively, you could call your congressperson. Most congresspeople will follow up on pretty much any request, and could either contact the appropriate authorities or tell you who to call. They have staff specifically for this kind of "casework," and have contacts in all layers of government.
posted by walla at 5:47 AM on March 29, 2008
I might consider moving out. I don't have time for racist fucktards and wouldn't want to look at this guy everyday when I come home from work. At the time of moving out, I might tell Maintenance Man and Landlord that Maintenance Man's comment led to this nice clean white boy to send his rent check somewhere else.
I understand being dumbfounded when someone drops a comment like that but your silence, in Maintenance Man's mind, is tacit agreement and I wouldn't want to live with that. In his small mind you are now one of "his kind."
I am not sure if I would get involved with the other tenants. I guess I would try to find out the circumstances of the first group of tenants' eviction and if they somehow felt wrongly evicted and you were willing to move out yourself *and* go to court, you could say something. I wouldn't mention anything to the nice Indian couple in 108, my god you would freak their shit out, possibly for no reason.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 9:12 AM on March 29, 2008
I understand being dumbfounded when someone drops a comment like that but your silence, in Maintenance Man's mind, is tacit agreement and I wouldn't want to live with that. In his small mind you are now one of "his kind."
I am not sure if I would get involved with the other tenants. I guess I would try to find out the circumstances of the first group of tenants' eviction and if they somehow felt wrongly evicted and you were willing to move out yourself *and* go to court, you could say something. I wouldn't mention anything to the nice Indian couple in 108, my god you would freak their shit out, possibly for no reason.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 9:12 AM on March 29, 2008
How do you know that the management are racist?
posted by oneirodynia at 10:52 AM on March 29, 2008
posted by oneirodynia at 10:52 AM on March 29, 2008
Getting involved is really a bad idea. If you really thing something nefarious is afoot, call one of the organizations listed above whose job it is to get involved.
There are a lot of details you don't know... for starters, it sounds as though the people in 2F have done things that have earned them an eviction. There's some suggestion that the same behavior is being tolerated in white people... but do you know that to be true?
Are you sure the management knows about the white druggies? Couldn't it be that the other tenants are the ones discriminating here? That they complain about the black druggies but not the white ones? Or that the folks in 2F actually got caught while the others did not?
Not trying to make excuses for the management, but just pointing out that you really don't know even a fraction of the situation, and it sounds like you're trying to Save The World because you don't like having a racist maintenance man.
Grow a backbone and confront the racism you KNOW exists as opposed to hurling largely unfounded accusations at people whose life/business you could ruin to make yourself feel better.
posted by toomuchpete at 9:25 AM on March 30, 2008
There are a lot of details you don't know... for starters, it sounds as though the people in 2F have done things that have earned them an eviction. There's some suggestion that the same behavior is being tolerated in white people... but do you know that to be true?
Are you sure the management knows about the white druggies? Couldn't it be that the other tenants are the ones discriminating here? That they complain about the black druggies but not the white ones? Or that the folks in 2F actually got caught while the others did not?
Not trying to make excuses for the management, but just pointing out that you really don't know even a fraction of the situation, and it sounds like you're trying to Save The World because you don't like having a racist maintenance man.
Grow a backbone and confront the racism you KNOW exists as opposed to hurling largely unfounded accusations at people whose life/business you could ruin to make yourself feel better.
posted by toomuchpete at 9:25 AM on March 30, 2008
incessant: "Should this end up in court, you could be on the hook for libel.
I'm not a lawyer, but I do not believe that telling someone that someone else is racist and that you suspect they're being discriminated against qualifies as libel, or even slander."
I'm not a lawyer either but I'm pretty sure you're right. Both libel and slander require that the person said or published something they knew to be false, and since the OP actually believes that the maintenance guy and the management are being racist that kind of eliminates that.
posted by katyggls at 8:38 PM on March 30, 2008
I'm not a lawyer, but I do not believe that telling someone that someone else is racist and that you suspect they're being discriminated against qualifies as libel, or even slander."
I'm not a lawyer either but I'm pretty sure you're right. Both libel and slander require that the person said or published something they knew to be false, and since the OP actually believes that the maintenance guy and the management are being racist that kind of eliminates that.
posted by katyggls at 8:38 PM on March 30, 2008
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by answergrape at 3:52 PM on March 28, 2008 [1 favorite]