We run out of cemetaries...then what?
March 25, 2008 9:31 AM Subscribe
When all existing cemetaries run out of room, and when there's no room for any new cemetaries...what then?
I'd imagine, (though it seems unlikely to happen soon) that we'd do something like Britain's doing...
posted by BundleOfHers at 9:41 AM on March 25, 2008
posted by BundleOfHers at 9:41 AM on March 25, 2008
I believe that current cemeteries already recycle plots. Plots sold today are sold for some period of time. Most people only pay for a limited time plot. I once met an accountant who did a number of cemetery audits. They actually keep pretty careful track of how many plots they have sold, used, etc.
posted by GuyZero at 9:41 AM on March 25, 2008
posted by GuyZero at 9:41 AM on March 25, 2008
To paraphrase Ian Malcolm, fictional math guy from Jurassic Park: death finds a way.
Cemetaries aren't really necessary. You can always dig deeper, build higher. You can dump bodies in the ocean for cryin' out loud! You can cremate people. You can turn people into Soilent Green.
If the earth ever gets to the point where we run out of 'space' for the dead I'm sure we'll have bigger issues to worry about.
posted by Green With You at 9:42 AM on March 25, 2008
Cemetaries aren't really necessary. You can always dig deeper, build higher. You can dump bodies in the ocean for cryin' out loud! You can cremate people. You can turn people into Soilent Green.
If the earth ever gets to the point where we run out of 'space' for the dead I'm sure we'll have bigger issues to worry about.
posted by Green With You at 9:42 AM on March 25, 2008
We'll build golf courses over top, and start filling mines with them.
posted by blue_beetle at 9:55 AM on March 25, 2008
posted by blue_beetle at 9:55 AM on March 25, 2008
I'm working in for a capital city in southern Africa which is dealing with this exact problem, due to the skyrocketing number of deaths. They are trying to promote cremation, but the culture is largely unaccepting of the practice based on their beliefs. However, Japan faced the the same issue, but I believe they now cremate approximately 99% of their dead.
There are certain religions which do not believe in cremation; many have to be buried on the day of their death.
Much of the world's unused land that is available isn't suitable for cemetery use. Generally, that same flat land that is ideal for the creation of new cemeteries is much more appealing to developers, who will pay a premium for it that no municipality can turn down. As well, some of that land is prime agricultural land. Airport expansions and other things seem to take precedent over burials.
In the city I'm working in, the cost of burial plots HAS increased, however, it's still not enough to encourage cremation, even in a very poor area. What my municipality has begun to do is sell "family graves" which would allow family members to be buried one coffin on top of the other (at a greater depth) with a sheet of metal separating the two coffins. Cremains may also be placed in these plots.
As GuyZero mentioned, some cities also lease out plots for a limited time.
I personally would like to see more cremations taking place... it's more kind in terms of land use, and family members may still have a place to visit if the cremains are stored in a wall of remembrance or columbarium.
posted by Juniper Toast at 9:57 AM on March 25, 2008
There are certain religions which do not believe in cremation; many have to be buried on the day of their death.
Much of the world's unused land that is available isn't suitable for cemetery use. Generally, that same flat land that is ideal for the creation of new cemeteries is much more appealing to developers, who will pay a premium for it that no municipality can turn down. As well, some of that land is prime agricultural land. Airport expansions and other things seem to take precedent over burials.
In the city I'm working in, the cost of burial plots HAS increased, however, it's still not enough to encourage cremation, even in a very poor area. What my municipality has begun to do is sell "family graves" which would allow family members to be buried one coffin on top of the other (at a greater depth) with a sheet of metal separating the two coffins. Cremains may also be placed in these plots.
As GuyZero mentioned, some cities also lease out plots for a limited time.
I personally would like to see more cremations taking place... it's more kind in terms of land use, and family members may still have a place to visit if the cremains are stored in a wall of remembrance or columbarium.
posted by Juniper Toast at 9:57 AM on March 25, 2008
I wonder how profitable running a cemetery really is. Aren't you selling out small parcels of land and then agreeing to eternal upkeep and maintenance? Wouldn't it become a non-profitable situation at some point long after a particular cemetery has reached capacity?
posted by jlowen at 9:59 AM on March 25, 2008
posted by jlowen at 9:59 AM on March 25, 2008
In Singapore, notoriously crowded due to the small size of the island, burial plots are leased out for limited periods of time. I was told that when the lease runs out, the remains (if there are any - which there usually are due to the chemicals pumped into bodies) are then exhumed and cremated.
posted by arcticwoman at 9:59 AM on March 25, 2008
posted by arcticwoman at 9:59 AM on March 25, 2008
death finds a way
Or economics does. As the amount of available land goes down, the cost of burial will go up and less people will chose (or be able to afford) burial as their option for disposal. (This will be limited by all land use not just land use for cemeteries.) Cremation may become more attractive (In the UK it currently accounts for around 70% of human remains disposal). Other options include burial at sea and conversion for dog food. Besides economics, other incentives may change behaviour, in the UK, burial outside traditional cemeteries is on the rise as people choose to be buried more sustainably, for example in woodland. Some instructions here to build your own biodegradable coffin. Green burial is also an issue in the US.
posted by biffa at 10:05 AM on March 25, 2008 [1 favorite]
Or economics does. As the amount of available land goes down, the cost of burial will go up and less people will chose (or be able to afford) burial as their option for disposal. (This will be limited by all land use not just land use for cemeteries.) Cremation may become more attractive (In the UK it currently accounts for around 70% of human remains disposal). Other options include burial at sea and conversion for dog food. Besides economics, other incentives may change behaviour, in the UK, burial outside traditional cemeteries is on the rise as people choose to be buried more sustainably, for example in woodland. Some instructions here to build your own biodegradable coffin. Green burial is also an issue in the US.
posted by biffa at 10:05 AM on March 25, 2008 [1 favorite]
Graves have been "recycled" here in London for centuries - the same is true in most large British cities.
One possible method is to do something like the following:
1) Shove all the current headstones (or at least the ones not belonging to important/rich people) to the cemetary wall.
2) Chuck enough earth down to raise the cemetary ground level by a couple of feet.
3) Dig new graves (which, thanks to the new ground level, will stop just high enough to avoid any previous burials)
4) Profit
S'why the ground level in the grounds of oooooooold London churches is often (seemingly inexplicibly) about 3 feet higher than that outside it.
posted by garius at 10:05 AM on March 25, 2008 [1 favorite]
One possible method is to do something like the following:
1) Shove all the current headstones (or at least the ones not belonging to important/rich people) to the cemetary wall.
2) Chuck enough earth down to raise the cemetary ground level by a couple of feet.
3) Dig new graves (which, thanks to the new ground level, will stop just high enough to avoid any previous burials)
4) Profit
S'why the ground level in the grounds of oooooooold London churches is often (seemingly inexplicibly) about 3 feet higher than that outside it.
posted by garius at 10:05 AM on March 25, 2008 [1 favorite]
There is a limited amount of space available in New Orleans proper for cemeteries. Also, because the water table is only a couple of feet below the surface, graves are not practical. So they use above-the-ground tombs made of marble. Corpses are placed inside without a coffin. And by law each one is permitted to take a new corpose a year and a day after the previous one.
And there's always cremation.
posted by Class Goat at 10:24 AM on March 25, 2008
And there's always cremation.
posted by Class Goat at 10:24 AM on March 25, 2008
The dead will roam the Earth? Oh, sorry.
If such a lack of available property ever became a factor, cremation would be a reasonable alternative. Of course, you'd have to ensure that any crematory operators were reputable and diligent, lest they employ the none-too-effective Ray Brent Marsh method.
posted by grabbingsand at 10:26 AM on March 25, 2008
If such a lack of available property ever became a factor, cremation would be a reasonable alternative. Of course, you'd have to ensure that any crematory operators were reputable and diligent, lest they employ the none-too-effective Ray Brent Marsh method.
posted by grabbingsand at 10:26 AM on March 25, 2008
In Paris they just stuck the bones in limestone quarries.
posted by Nelson at 10:27 AM on March 25, 2008
posted by Nelson at 10:27 AM on March 25, 2008
I wonder how profitable running a cemetery really is. Aren't you selling out small parcels of land and then agreeing to eternal upkeep and maintenance? Wouldn't it become a non-profitable situation at some point long after a particular cemetery has reached capacity?
My folks looked into buying a cemetery a while back. You're exactly right - the business relies on getting the money upfront and investing it such that you can pay for upkeep as well as make a profit.
posted by cr_joe at 10:33 AM on March 25, 2008
My folks looked into buying a cemetery a while back. You're exactly right - the business relies on getting the money upfront and investing it such that you can pay for upkeep as well as make a profit.
posted by cr_joe at 10:33 AM on March 25, 2008
Dead people are wasted fertilizer. I want forests to be planted over cremated or promated bodies. Then the only desecration possible is cutting down the trees. We need more trees, so adding another encouragement for their planting and hindrance to their removal would be good. Create a woods (birds, etc.), not a manicured park.
But if land were really an issue, you could instead scatter us to the fish and birds, drop us to the bottom of the sea, and throw us into volcanoes. We'll never run out of room for the little pile of us that remains when the water is gone.
(By the way, please fix the spelling in the tag. There is no A in cemetery. Three Es.)
posted by pracowity at 10:34 AM on March 25, 2008
But if land were really an issue, you could instead scatter us to the fish and birds, drop us to the bottom of the sea, and throw us into volcanoes. We'll never run out of room for the little pile of us that remains when the water is gone.
(By the way, please fix the spelling in the tag. There is no A in cemetery. Three Es.)
posted by pracowity at 10:34 AM on March 25, 2008
I suppose they'll start burying the dead vertically soon. I thought I read somewhere that they've already started doing that in some places, but my google-fu is not good enough it seems.
Here's an interesting snippet I found in wikipedia on this subject:
posted by ogami at 10:42 AM on March 25, 2008
Here's an interesting snippet I found in wikipedia on this subject:
Occasionally suicides were buried upside down, as a post mortem punishment and (as with burial at cross-roads) to inhibit the activities of the resulting undead.I can almost imagine a question concerning that coming up in QI!
posted by ogami at 10:42 AM on March 25, 2008
Historically: Stacking coffins within graves, or in some cases disinterring coffins and storing the bones in an ossuary (often to quite startling effect).
I get the impression that our ancestors were a lot less squeamish about disturbing the long dead.
posted by Artw at 11:40 AM on March 25, 2008
I get the impression that our ancestors were a lot less squeamish about disturbing the long dead.
posted by Artw at 11:40 AM on March 25, 2008
Reusing cemeteries is an ancient English practice that was abandoned somewhere along the way. I have read historic accounts of gravediggers discarding the teeth of bones of previous residents as they dig fresh graves.
At the giant cemetery in Havana many of the graves seemed to have deep vertical holes with a stone slab over them. I think what they did was to drop fresh coffins over the old decaying ones and put the slab back on the top.
posted by LarryC at 11:43 AM on March 25, 2008
At the giant cemetery in Havana many of the graves seemed to have deep vertical holes with a stone slab over them. I think what they did was to drop fresh coffins over the old decaying ones and put the slab back on the top.
posted by LarryC at 11:43 AM on March 25, 2008
If you are San Francisco, you pass a law outlawing the construction of new cemetaries, and then pass another law evicting all existing cemetaries. Then you create a necropolis in the suburbs.
posted by PercussivePaul at 12:07 PM on March 25, 2008
posted by PercussivePaul at 12:07 PM on March 25, 2008
Many cities in their initial growth phases swallowed up cemeteries of earlier settlers. They were usually dug up and supposedly reburied elsewhere. It still happens these days although not with as much regularity. Within the last 20 years here in Milwaukee there has been a few cemeteries/mausoleums that have been lost or are in the process. I've seen a new cemetery in Ann Arbor that had high rise vaults so I would foresee those being used more often in the future especially where old cemeteries are being reclaimed for other uses.
posted by JJ86 at 12:23 PM on March 25, 2008
posted by JJ86 at 12:23 PM on March 25, 2008
If were were Spartans we could use them for construction materials.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:04 PM on March 25, 2008
posted by kirkaracha at 1:04 PM on March 25, 2008
In the cemetary I work with, we have currently unused land sitting that we are expecting to have to use maybe in 40 years or so...if the current ratio of full burial to cremation remains steady. However, cremation has been going up. We have various ways and means to handle cremation remains from burial in the earth to wall niches to a scattering garden. Double depth plots are more common now for couples than side-by sides.
As for the non-profit aspect; our cemetary is non-profit. The extra money after upfront costs & salaries are paid goes into a perpetual care fund. Money from that is used to maintain the entire cemetary, from the oldest graves to the newest, and even do some restoration work. We still have to work on getting grants for expansion projects (like our new wall niches).
One of the things we've been talking about is the rise of 'non-traditional' rites, like cremation and even green burials. It will let us keep the land we have marked for use for a while yet. After that...
(this is in small city Ontario)
posted by sandraregina at 1:15 PM on March 25, 2008
As for the non-profit aspect; our cemetary is non-profit. The extra money after upfront costs & salaries are paid goes into a perpetual care fund. Money from that is used to maintain the entire cemetary, from the oldest graves to the newest, and even do some restoration work. We still have to work on getting grants for expansion projects (like our new wall niches).
One of the things we've been talking about is the rise of 'non-traditional' rites, like cremation and even green burials. It will let us keep the land we have marked for use for a while yet. After that...
(this is in small city Ontario)
posted by sandraregina at 1:15 PM on March 25, 2008
See also: Sky burials, burial at sea, freeze drying and my personal favorite, the viking funeral.
posted by 1f2frfbf at 1:17 PM on March 25, 2008
posted by 1f2frfbf at 1:17 PM on March 25, 2008
Before they opened the big municipal cemeteries in Victorian London they just about run out of burial space in the City. The results were not pleasant... burying people on top of each other or cramming them into burial vaults etc... and sort of 'squishing' down what was already there, or shoving them out into the sewers etc.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:24 PM on March 25, 2008
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:24 PM on March 25, 2008
PercussivePaul mentions something I was just exploring this weekend. The Neptune Society Columbarium is one of these places. From wikipedia: The Odd Fellows, forced to abandon their cemetery, established Green Lawn Cemetery In Colma ... The crematorium and various mausolea were demolished, and many of the headstones were used to build a seawall at Aquatic Park. btw, the Columbarium is both gorgeous and open to the public and afaik, the last place where you can be interred in San Francisco proper (i.e. there is still space available according to their website).
I found this interesting also. Germany recycles graves and evidently it's not always so simple:
When bodies don't decompose, their graves can't be reused -- a common practice in Germany.
posted by a_green_man at 1:35 PM on March 25, 2008
I found this interesting also. Germany recycles graves and evidently it's not always so simple:
When bodies don't decompose, their graves can't be reused -- a common practice in Germany.
posted by a_green_man at 1:35 PM on March 25, 2008
Sure, there are practical issues about wanting cemetaries close to populous centers, but in general it's not like we're short on ground space. And of course, in the long run bodies decompose... even bones. Look how excited we are when we find an even remotely intact ancient human skeleton.
posted by you're a kitty! at 2:43 PM on March 25, 2008
posted by you're a kitty! at 2:43 PM on March 25, 2008
You could take all 6 billion people alive today and bury them in the state of Connecticut. Looking at the size of Connecticut on a world map indicates there is lots of room for a long time to come.
posted by JackFlash at 4:05 PM on March 25, 2008
posted by JackFlash at 4:05 PM on March 25, 2008
BTW If you're interested in the general subject of dead bodies you should check out Stiff by Mary Roach. I beleive it may touch on the whole dis/reinterment issue as well.
posted by Artw at 4:08 PM on March 25, 2008
posted by Artw at 4:08 PM on March 25, 2008
Graves have been "recycled" here in London for centuries - the same is true in most large British cities.
And I highly recommend Necropolis: London and its Dead by Catharine Arnold for an entertaining and intriguing look at how London has dealt with the problem of shrinking land and increasing numbers of dead people over the centuries, including through plagues and war. Fascinating.
posted by andraste at 5:09 PM on March 25, 2008
And I highly recommend Necropolis: London and its Dead by Catharine Arnold for an entertaining and intriguing look at how London has dealt with the problem of shrinking land and increasing numbers of dead people over the centuries, including through plagues and war. Fascinating.
posted by andraste at 5:09 PM on March 25, 2008
Old dead bodies unless they're a tourist draw (like Edgar Alan Poe's grave) will most likely be disinterred and either cremated or placed in an underground necropolis under the cemetary.
Also keep in mind that not everyone wants to be buried. Some donate their bodies to medical science.
posted by Kioki-Silver at 5:46 PM on March 25, 2008
Also keep in mind that not everyone wants to be buried. Some donate their bodies to medical science.
posted by Kioki-Silver at 5:46 PM on March 25, 2008
It also bears noting that although those 6 Billion people (pulled out of JackFlash's arse no doubt, or do you have a reference for that? and are you counting those already buried?) could be buried in Connecticut, most people prefer to be interred on their home soil, whether that soil is by birth or adoption.
posted by a_green_man at 1:45 AM on March 26, 2008
posted by a_green_man at 1:45 AM on March 26, 2008
And I highly recommend Necropolis: London and its Dead by Catharine Arnold for an entertaining and intriguing look at how London has dealt with the problem of shrinking land and increasing numbers of dead people over the centuries, including through plagues and war. Fascinating.
Seconded. Great Book.
posted by garius at 2:22 AM on March 26, 2008
Seconded. Great Book.
posted by garius at 2:22 AM on March 26, 2008
This thread is closed to new comments.
BTW, did you read this?
posted by mr. creosote at 9:38 AM on March 25, 2008