Sir...
November 13, 2007 2:40 PM Subscribe
How do I find out how/where someone was knighted?
I know a man that occasionally is referred to as "Sir" so and so. He isn't called that all the time, but I'm really curious to know what country knighted him. He's American but is incredibly well traveled and has lived a very unusual life to say the least, so really anything is possible. The lists on wikipedia of the British knights didn't include him and the fact that he doesn't use Sir all that often makes me think its probably something kind of obscure. Any ideas? Or know of any lists of knights from around the world?
I know a man that occasionally is referred to as "Sir" so and so. He isn't called that all the time, but I'm really curious to know what country knighted him. He's American but is incredibly well traveled and has lived a very unusual life to say the least, so really anything is possible. The lists on wikipedia of the British knights didn't include him and the fact that he doesn't use Sir all that often makes me think its probably something kind of obscure. Any ideas? Or know of any lists of knights from around the world?
He may be a baronet: it's basically a hereditary knighthood. There aren't many of them, though. Burke's Peerage is your best bet for some answers.
Some Commonwealth realms also bestow (or bestowed) knighthoods: Sidney Poitier, for instance, is 'Sir Sidney' when treated as a Bahamian, as opposed to a US citizen.
And, there's always the possibility that it's not an earned honorific, but that hardly needs saying.
posted by holgate at 2:54 PM on November 13, 2007
Some Commonwealth realms also bestow (or bestowed) knighthoods: Sidney Poitier, for instance, is 'Sir Sidney' when treated as a Bahamian, as opposed to a US citizen.
And, there's always the possibility that it's not an earned honorific, but that hardly needs saying.
posted by holgate at 2:54 PM on November 13, 2007
Only British and Commonwealth Knights are normally entitled to be styled as 'Sir'. If he is American, (ie a non-British citizen at the time of his investment) his knighthood would be 'honorary'.
The other possibility is that he inherited his knighthood - a situation known as a Baronet
There are many thousands of Baronets - so tracking down specific information might be a little difficult. But Google might well be your friend
posted by TheOtherGuy at 2:56 PM on November 13, 2007
The other possibility is that he inherited his knighthood - a situation known as a Baronet
There are many thousands of Baronets - so tracking down specific information might be a little difficult. But Google might well be your friend
posted by TheOtherGuy at 2:56 PM on November 13, 2007
As far as I know, Sir is only a British salutation. A Spanish low-ranking nobleman, for instance, would be a "Señor."
posted by nasreddin at 2:57 PM on November 13, 2007
posted by nasreddin at 2:57 PM on November 13, 2007
I don't think the British knight Americans.
Bill Gates has a knighthood.
posted by nasreddin at 2:58 PM on November 13, 2007
Bill Gates has a knighthood.
posted by nasreddin at 2:58 PM on November 13, 2007
Only a little helpful, but I don't think the British knight Americans. Or non Brits, for that matter.
Should have previewed: baronetcies are passed on by strict primogeniture (no female succession, apart from a few rare cases); and you can be born in the US and still be a British or Commonwealth realm citizen (or 'subject', since we're dealing with toff matters here) by virtue of your parents.
Anyway, here are all the extant baronetcies. And the other Book of Toffs is Debrett's: sometimes found in British reference libraries, but with no real online presence.
posted by holgate at 3:03 PM on November 13, 2007
Should have previewed: baronetcies are passed on by strict primogeniture (no female succession, apart from a few rare cases); and you can be born in the US and still be a British or Commonwealth realm citizen (or 'subject', since we're dealing with toff matters here) by virtue of your parents.
Anyway, here are all the extant baronetcies. And the other Book of Toffs is Debrett's: sometimes found in British reference libraries, but with no real online presence.
posted by holgate at 3:03 PM on November 13, 2007
Bill Gates has a knighthood.
Nah, he has a KBE. He only becomes eligible for a 'Sir' if he takes UK citizenship, which is what Sir Paul Getty did.
posted by holgate at 3:08 PM on November 13, 2007
Nah, he has a KBE. He only becomes eligible for a 'Sir' if he takes UK citizenship, which is what Sir Paul Getty did.
posted by holgate at 3:08 PM on November 13, 2007
OK, I hate to use wikipedia for this, but page lists the various orders that the British have. Using the table in the Current orders of Chivalry section, you can get to pages about each order. Each of those pages either has a list of current members, or links to lists maintained elsewhere. This is only the British list; there might be others for other countries, so this may or may not help you.
Again, sorry for using Wikipedia, but it seemed like this was the most centralized way to do this.
Citizens of countries who do not have the Queen as head of state can be made honorary members, which entitles them to use the initials, but not the title.
posted by never used baby shoes at 3:15 PM on November 13, 2007
Again, sorry for using Wikipedia, but it seemed like this was the most centralized way to do this.
Citizens of countries who do not have the Queen as head of state can be made honorary members, which entitles them to use the initials, but not the title.
posted by never used baby shoes at 3:15 PM on November 13, 2007
I know this is dissatisfying to the internet sleuth, but you should just ask him about it. If he really has a title I would imagine he wouldn't mind talking about it.
posted by aubilenon at 3:52 PM on November 13, 2007
posted by aubilenon at 3:52 PM on November 13, 2007
Damned interesting and the only place for updated honours information: The London, Belfast and Edinburgh Gazettes.
posted by parmanparman at 3:52 PM on November 13, 2007
posted by parmanparman at 3:52 PM on November 13, 2007
From the most recent London Gazette:
The Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of the Thistle Chancery of the Order, Court of the Lord Lyon, Edinburgh
Her Majesty THE QUEEN has been graciously pleased to appoint The Right Honourable David George Coke Patrick Ogilvy, the Earl of Airlie, KT, GCVO, PC, JP, to be Chancellor of the Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of the Thistle, in place of the Most Noble Walter Francis John Montagu Douglas Scott, Duke of Buccleuch and Queensberry, KT, VRD, deceased.
13 November 2007. (389885)
posted by parmanparman at 3:56 PM on November 13, 2007
The Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of the Thistle Chancery of the Order, Court of the Lord Lyon, Edinburgh
Her Majesty THE QUEEN has been graciously pleased to appoint The Right Honourable David George Coke Patrick Ogilvy, the Earl of Airlie, KT, GCVO, PC, JP, to be Chancellor of the Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of the Thistle, in place of the Most Noble Walter Francis John Montagu Douglas Scott, Duke of Buccleuch and Queensberry, KT, VRD, deceased.
13 November 2007. (389885)
posted by parmanparman at 3:56 PM on November 13, 2007
Response by poster: I should say while he's American, it isn't impossible that he has some sort of dual citizenship somewhere. I highly doubt it was inherited. I only vaguelly vaguelly know this man as an acquaintance (but am familiar with his work) and honestly have no idea when I'd ever see him at an event or something.
I really don't think it's British, just because I think that something would come up when i googled him about it. The whole Bahama thing sounds slightly more plausible or some small country that gives out knighthoods in a sort of non traditional way, if there is one.
posted by whoaali at 4:14 PM on November 13, 2007
I really don't think it's British, just because I think that something would come up when i googled him about it. The whole Bahama thing sounds slightly more plausible or some small country that gives out knighthoods in a sort of non traditional way, if there is one.
posted by whoaali at 4:14 PM on November 13, 2007
Whoaali: do you know what order he claims? This looks like a really good introduction to whether you are being conned, or if he was. http://www.baronage.co.uk/2002d/conned.pdf
posted by parmanparman at 4:24 PM on November 13, 2007
posted by parmanparman at 4:24 PM on November 13, 2007
also http://www.faketitles.com/index.html
posted by parmanparman at 4:40 PM on November 13, 2007
posted by parmanparman at 4:40 PM on November 13, 2007
Response by poster: I doubt its a matter of him being conned. He's live a pretty amazing life. He's served in some pretty important positions and known more than a few heads of state in his time and I know has done a lot of important work, so it really doesn't seem that far fetched that some small country at one point honored him with a knighthood. Of course the man is so old it could have easily been over 50 years ago.
posted by whoaali at 4:54 PM on November 13, 2007
posted by whoaali at 4:54 PM on November 13, 2007
I suppose it would be tactless for you to name the name. I understand, but, heavens, what a pity for the curious.
posted by IndigoJones at 5:59 PM on November 13, 2007
posted by IndigoJones at 5:59 PM on November 13, 2007
Is it possible he's a member of one of the modern incarnations of the Knights Hospitaller? I don't know that they technically use "Sir", but I could see that being sort of an in-joke.
posted by worldswalker at 6:09 PM on November 13, 2007
posted by worldswalker at 6:09 PM on November 13, 2007
Response by poster: Yeah I'd rather not say who it is, but it isn't someone you would know. I mean within certain very small circles he's known, but he's really just one of those really accomplished and really eccentric people who you never stop hearing random stories about. Hence hearing the whole Sir thing.
I think worldswalker might be on the right track. Obscure ancient clubs certainly seem right up his alley. I'm guessing his knighthood probably is the result of something like this rather than being knighted by an actual monarchy.
posted by whoaali at 6:51 PM on November 13, 2007
I think worldswalker might be on the right track. Obscure ancient clubs certainly seem right up his alley. I'm guessing his knighthood probably is the result of something like this rather than being knighted by an actual monarchy.
posted by whoaali at 6:51 PM on November 13, 2007
Americans are usually not granted knighthoods unless they become UK citizens. Note that it is illegal for a federal employee, office holder or holder of a "trust" (whatever that means) to have a title of foreign nobility. From Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution:
No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States: and no person holding any office of profit or trust under them, shall, without the consent of the Congress, accept of any present, emolument, office, or title, of any kind whatever, from any king, prince, or foreign state.
Generally the whole orders and knighthoods thing in the UK is so convoluted so as not to be understood by rational beings.
posted by Ironmouth at 7:30 PM on November 13, 2007
No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States: and no person holding any office of profit or trust under them, shall, without the consent of the Congress, accept of any present, emolument, office, or title, of any kind whatever, from any king, prince, or foreign state.
Generally the whole orders and knighthoods thing in the UK is so convoluted so as not to be understood by rational beings.
posted by Ironmouth at 7:30 PM on November 13, 2007
Could he have been a citizen of a Commonwealth country at some point? It's not that Commonwealth countries give out knighthoods in a 'non-traditional way', people are still honoured by the Queen of the Commonwealth who is the Queen of the UK but it may be in a different 'order' of chivalry (or may not). If he is a 'real' knight in any Cwealth country his name and the honour will be listed in the London Gazette. He will also be listed in Burke's Peerage. If so, he can only (correctly) use 'Sir' if he is also still a national of a Cwealth country. If he is not listed in either of these you can safely assume his use of the honorific 'Sir' derives not from the Queen.
posted by goo at 1:08 AM on November 14, 2007
posted by goo at 1:08 AM on November 14, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by sweetkid at 2:52 PM on November 13, 2007