Help me keep our landlord from ripping out the yard to replace with concrete!
November 9, 2007 1:06 PM Subscribe
Help me convince our landlord not to rip out our front yard to replace with concrete or tile, via the argument that tile will further amplify the already significant traffic noise we get.
My boyfriend and I just moved into a great house with a lovely front yard. Our dotty landlord -- he's a nice guy, but definitely has a couple of screws loose -- has, however, unfortunately gotten obsessed with the idea that the best way to solve global warming is to rip everything out and replace it with concrete or tile, so that he doesn't have to run the sprinklers anymore. (For the record, they only run briefly, twice a week, as it is.) I think he's as much motivated by trying to save a few bucks on the water bill (even though he admits it will cost him thousands of dollars to rip out the yard and pave it over) as he is by saving the planet.
Obviously, this is aesthetically horrible (it's not even like he wants to landscape it with climate-appropriate plants, which I'd be fine with), and makes no economic sense (spending thousands of dollars up front to save tens of dollars a month, not to mention the fact that it doesn't add value to the house overall, if he should ever try to sell it).
But our most immediate concern, though, is the noise. Our bedroom faces the front yard, which is (obviously) right on the street. Most of the time, the street is reasonably quiet. During morning rush, however, it's used as a shortcut between two major thoroughfares (as well as to the highway), creating very significant traffic noise, starting around 5:30 a.m. (We've been using a white noise machine and ear plugs to try to drown it out, with only moderate success.)
Here's the concern: we believe that removing the fence, grass, shrubbery, and trees to replace them with several hundred square feet of tile under our windows will amplify the noise to an unbearable level. (The upcoming rainy season -- aka "winter" -- is also worrisome, as the sound of heavy rain on tile is obviously a lot noisier than the sound of rain on grass.)
While the present level of noise certainly isn't our landlord's responsibility, we do think there's an argument to be made that increased noise due directly to a renovation he makes will be his responsibility (under the habitability code of CA tenant law).
We've already brought all this up with him, and he professes to not have any understanding how tile could possibly be any noisier than grass. (The amusing sidenote here is that our landlord is in fact partially deaf, and so we actually had to explain all this by yelling.)
So! Help me out here, hive mind. What resources are out there to explicitly illustrate that removing grass and replacing it with tile will lead to an amplification of noise? (We are hoping, of course, to dissuade him from doing it in the first place -- but if goes ahead and does it anyway, we want him to agree to soundproof the bedroom windows.)
My boyfriend and I just moved into a great house with a lovely front yard. Our dotty landlord -- he's a nice guy, but definitely has a couple of screws loose -- has, however, unfortunately gotten obsessed with the idea that the best way to solve global warming is to rip everything out and replace it with concrete or tile, so that he doesn't have to run the sprinklers anymore. (For the record, they only run briefly, twice a week, as it is.) I think he's as much motivated by trying to save a few bucks on the water bill (even though he admits it will cost him thousands of dollars to rip out the yard and pave it over) as he is by saving the planet.
Obviously, this is aesthetically horrible (it's not even like he wants to landscape it with climate-appropriate plants, which I'd be fine with), and makes no economic sense (spending thousands of dollars up front to save tens of dollars a month, not to mention the fact that it doesn't add value to the house overall, if he should ever try to sell it).
But our most immediate concern, though, is the noise. Our bedroom faces the front yard, which is (obviously) right on the street. Most of the time, the street is reasonably quiet. During morning rush, however, it's used as a shortcut between two major thoroughfares (as well as to the highway), creating very significant traffic noise, starting around 5:30 a.m. (We've been using a white noise machine and ear plugs to try to drown it out, with only moderate success.)
Here's the concern: we believe that removing the fence, grass, shrubbery, and trees to replace them with several hundred square feet of tile under our windows will amplify the noise to an unbearable level. (The upcoming rainy season -- aka "winter" -- is also worrisome, as the sound of heavy rain on tile is obviously a lot noisier than the sound of rain on grass.)
While the present level of noise certainly isn't our landlord's responsibility, we do think there's an argument to be made that increased noise due directly to a renovation he makes will be his responsibility (under the habitability code of CA tenant law).
We've already brought all this up with him, and he professes to not have any understanding how tile could possibly be any noisier than grass. (The amusing sidenote here is that our landlord is in fact partially deaf, and so we actually had to explain all this by yelling.)
So! Help me out here, hive mind. What resources are out there to explicitly illustrate that removing grass and replacing it with tile will lead to an amplification of noise? (We are hoping, of course, to dissuade him from doing it in the first place -- but if goes ahead and does it anyway, we want him to agree to soundproof the bedroom windows.)
It will probably increase the noise inside, but to prove that, in advance, won't be easy. But the analogy to make is, imagine you're standing inside a normal living room with rugs, stuffed furniture, drapes etc., and someone is speaking to you in a normal tone of voice. Now, take everything out of the room. No furniture, no drapes, no carpet, nothing. That person's voice will definitely sound louder to you. That's because nothing is left to absorb sound and it's bouncing off the walls and floors. That's what your concrete front yard will do to the sound coming at your window. Grass, shrubs and fence absorb sound, and concrete reflects it.
That's how I'd put it, but it sounds to me like it ain't gonna work. And, truth be told, the difference won't be that huge, and one extra layer of glass on your windows will probably reduce it the noise below what it was before.
The issue is, you like your yard and want to keep it. What I would say to him is, "Look we rented this house for its lovely front yard, and we want that yard. You can quit watering, as far as we're concerned, but don't change it. If you rip it out, the lease is null and void."
posted by beagle at 1:25 PM on November 9, 2007
That's how I'd put it, but it sounds to me like it ain't gonna work. And, truth be told, the difference won't be that huge, and one extra layer of glass on your windows will probably reduce it the noise below what it was before.
The issue is, you like your yard and want to keep it. What I would say to him is, "Look we rented this house for its lovely front yard, and we want that yard. You can quit watering, as far as we're concerned, but don't change it. If you rip it out, the lease is null and void."
posted by beagle at 1:25 PM on November 9, 2007
Best answer: Replacing this lawn with tile will not help reduce global warming.
First, tile do not reduce the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere like grass does.
Second, the embodied energy of the tiles, the energy required to produce, transport, and install them, comes from the burning of fossil fuels, which increases the amount of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere (excavating clay, transporting clay to tile production facility, moving the tiles to the house, quarrying of gravel and sand, production of mortar, all the people working in these industries driving to work in the morning, etc).
Replacing the lawn with tiles would also increase the urban heat island effect.
It's bad for the environment and makes no economic sense.
posted by BeaverTerror at 1:28 PM on November 9, 2007
First, tile do not reduce the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere like grass does.
Second, the embodied energy of the tiles, the energy required to produce, transport, and install them, comes from the burning of fossil fuels, which increases the amount of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere (excavating clay, transporting clay to tile production facility, moving the tiles to the house, quarrying of gravel and sand, production of mortar, all the people working in these industries driving to work in the morning, etc).
Replacing the lawn with tiles would also increase the urban heat island effect.
It's bad for the environment and makes no economic sense.
posted by BeaverTerror at 1:28 PM on November 9, 2007
Check zoning codes--usually you can't pave your whole yard. Just call your city hall.
You should also buy your landlord a couple of nice book on xeroscaping and planting with native plants. Then offer to split the costs of some hearty, attractive drought-loving plants with him.
posted by OlderThanTOS at 1:29 PM on November 9, 2007
You should also buy your landlord a couple of nice book on xeroscaping and planting with native plants. Then offer to split the costs of some hearty, attractive drought-loving plants with him.
posted by OlderThanTOS at 1:29 PM on November 9, 2007
Why don't you offer to install some native plant grasses instead? Regular lawn grass is totally overrated and it requires a lot of water and maintenance to stay green. That is a waste of resources. You could get some pots of native grasses for not a lot of money and redo the yard. He might pay for it if you are willing to do the work. There are University Extension services that could give you some pointers into an environmentally friendly landscape that would make both you and your landlord happy.
posted by 45moore45 at 1:32 PM on November 9, 2007
posted by 45moore45 at 1:32 PM on November 9, 2007
Why are you trying to reason with him? He probably keeps bringing it up just so he has something to talk about with someone. Poor ol' batty guy. Negotiating will just encourage him.
I would reask this question, something more along the lines of a landlord doing major rennovation to the property after you move in. Imagine if you had rented a house for the cool bath tub, and the landlord decided to take it out and put in a shower. Or, if they decided to take out the kitchen and put in a garage. At some point, you have to have some rights in this sort of major change to your rented property. I would say something like "if you do this, I will move immediately. I will pay no more rent, and I will sue you to get my security deposit back. This is all I have to say on the subject." You don't have to give him a reason or become Al Gore.
The best way to disuade him is to threaten to leave. If you are good renters, this will be enough. On the other hand, maybe he wants you out? You could ask him "Are you doing this to get rid of us? Because if it is all tile out there we will leave."
But my gut is telling me this guy is all talk.
posted by Eringatang at 1:34 PM on November 9, 2007
I would reask this question, something more along the lines of a landlord doing major rennovation to the property after you move in. Imagine if you had rented a house for the cool bath tub, and the landlord decided to take it out and put in a shower. Or, if they decided to take out the kitchen and put in a garage. At some point, you have to have some rights in this sort of major change to your rented property. I would say something like "if you do this, I will move immediately. I will pay no more rent, and I will sue you to get my security deposit back. This is all I have to say on the subject." You don't have to give him a reason or become Al Gore.
The best way to disuade him is to threaten to leave. If you are good renters, this will be enough. On the other hand, maybe he wants you out? You could ask him "Are you doing this to get rid of us? Because if it is all tile out there we will leave."
But my gut is telling me this guy is all talk.
posted by Eringatang at 1:34 PM on November 9, 2007
If it looks like he's going to proceed despite your concerns, talk to him about going native. Native plantings can survive on the water that's available to them, without sprinklers. People in Southern California occasionally do this, and that's a place where sprinklers run once (or twice!) a day, seven days a week in the summer.
posted by davejay at 1:38 PM on November 9, 2007
posted by davejay at 1:38 PM on November 9, 2007
Best answer: The grass on your front lawn probably doesn't reduce the noise indoors by much. Sound doesn't reverberate outdoors and any difference the grass makes would be in reducing the amount of reflected sound, but because of the angles between the street, your lawn, and your window, that amount is minimal.
If you really want to reduce the traffic noise you hear, you should look into getting double glazed windows. They're expensive, but they'll significantly reduce heating and cooling costs. If your landlord is interested in reducing global warming and resolving the looming energy crisis, he should look into this option.
And photovoltaic cells on the roof, as well as a solar water heater for the showers.
posted by BeaverTerror at 1:40 PM on November 9, 2007
If you really want to reduce the traffic noise you hear, you should look into getting double glazed windows. They're expensive, but they'll significantly reduce heating and cooling costs. If your landlord is interested in reducing global warming and resolving the looming energy crisis, he should look into this option.
And photovoltaic cells on the roof, as well as a solar water heater for the showers.
posted by BeaverTerror at 1:40 PM on November 9, 2007
I thik I'd approach it from the "we don't want to live here anymore if you do this" angle. Also, "you may have trouble finding future renters, as tiled-over front lawns are not very many people's cup of tea"
He's really not trying to be environmentally friendly, he just wants to reduce his water bill. Since his real motive seems to be money, I'd try to reason with his wallet.
posted by DrGirlfriend at 1:40 PM on November 9, 2007
He's really not trying to be environmentally friendly, he just wants to reduce his water bill. Since his real motive seems to be money, I'd try to reason with his wallet.
posted by DrGirlfriend at 1:40 PM on November 9, 2007
Best answer: You may not be able to attack the noise as easily as his pocketbook. Ask him if the water issue is his main concern. If so, then tackle that issue from the cost savings side. Eliminate his requirement for watering.
The best solution is to introduce plants that tolerate dry times and increase the pervious surface to allow water to infiltrate the soil. Include mulch to retain moisture.
If he's set on installing a hard surface, appeal to his enviornmental concern, and hit him with the request for pervious pavers. Insist that dark pavement is not appropriate. Turfstone is good since it has open cells. You can plant sedum or such in the spaces. You can also include plants in containers to help dull the sounds if it becomes necessary.
Guide specs for sustainable building include the following quote:
Site Paving: ...... Asphalt paving is not desirable in a cooling climate due to its tendency to absorb and reradiate heat, and the potential for emissions and runoff of petroleum byproducts during its installation and use. During design, consider using porous pavement to manage stormwater and reduce urban heat islands.
It's included in this information but, you may not be able to access it. (I don't know if it's limited to subscribers)
The main concern with the paving is that increases runoff! Which is VERY BAD. Stormwater runoff reduces groundwater recharge and pulls pollutants off the roof, cars, driveways, etc. into the water system.
posted by mightshould at 1:44 PM on November 9, 2007
The best solution is to introduce plants that tolerate dry times and increase the pervious surface to allow water to infiltrate the soil. Include mulch to retain moisture.
If he's set on installing a hard surface, appeal to his enviornmental concern, and hit him with the request for pervious pavers. Insist that dark pavement is not appropriate. Turfstone is good since it has open cells. You can plant sedum or such in the spaces. You can also include plants in containers to help dull the sounds if it becomes necessary.
Guide specs for sustainable building include the following quote:
Site Paving: ...... Asphalt paving is not desirable in a cooling climate due to its tendency to absorb and reradiate heat, and the potential for emissions and runoff of petroleum byproducts during its installation and use. During design, consider using porous pavement to manage stormwater and reduce urban heat islands.
It's included in this information but, you may not be able to access it. (I don't know if it's limited to subscribers)
The main concern with the paving is that increases runoff! Which is VERY BAD. Stormwater runoff reduces groundwater recharge and pulls pollutants off the roof, cars, driveways, etc. into the water system.
posted by mightshould at 1:44 PM on November 9, 2007
Response by poster: Thanks to stupidsexyFlanders and others for the suggestion about zoning and building codes -- I (excitedly!) called an inspector at Building and Safety, but unfortunately in L.A. it's within code to pave over your entire lawn. (You just can't park on it.)
Thanks, too, to everyone for the specific reasons that this plan will actually NOT help the environment -- all these arguments may actually carry some weight with him. I'm composing my letter now!
As for the suggestions to landscaping with native plants, we've already repeatedly offered that as a suggestion. (We've also offered to take on the cost of watering the lawn ourselves.) No dice. He's OBSESSED with tiling it -- "I think it's for the very best," he keeps repeating. I will bring up the issue of environmentally sound hard surfaces, though.
But my gut is telling me this guy is all talk.
Unfortunately, he's dead serious -- he told my boyfriend today that he's already hired the guy to pave it over after Thanksgiving, hence why I finally posted this to AskMe. (We actually kept avoiding the topic ourselves, hoping he'd forget about it. No such luck.) The only way he'll stop is if we convince him.
Thanks again, everyone. Please keep the suggestions and information coming!
posted by scody at 1:53 PM on November 9, 2007
Thanks, too, to everyone for the specific reasons that this plan will actually NOT help the environment -- all these arguments may actually carry some weight with him. I'm composing my letter now!
As for the suggestions to landscaping with native plants, we've already repeatedly offered that as a suggestion. (We've also offered to take on the cost of watering the lawn ourselves.) No dice. He's OBSESSED with tiling it -- "I think it's for the very best," he keeps repeating. I will bring up the issue of environmentally sound hard surfaces, though.
But my gut is telling me this guy is all talk.
Unfortunately, he's dead serious -- he told my boyfriend today that he's already hired the guy to pave it over after Thanksgiving, hence why I finally posted this to AskMe. (We actually kept avoiding the topic ourselves, hoping he'd forget about it. No such luck.) The only way he'll stop is if we convince him.
Thanks again, everyone. Please keep the suggestions and information coming!
posted by scody at 1:53 PM on November 9, 2007
Best answer: here's a good basic overview of permeable landscaping, which outlines some of the benefits and why cities are moving towards replacing concrete spaces with green spaces.
posted by judith at 2:26 PM on November 9, 2007
posted by judith at 2:26 PM on November 9, 2007
You may want to gather some tiling horror stories, too, that would involve significant expense or hassle for him as owner. For instance, have they planned how the land will need to be graded before tiling to accommodate the runoff so that the foundation isn't harmed? Water damage and flooded basements are no joke. What else could go wrong?
(Because I'm wondering from your follow-up if he wasn't talked into this by someone with a vested interest. Is the paver guy his brother-in-law or something?)
posted by desuetude at 3:32 PM on November 9, 2007
(Because I'm wondering from your follow-up if he wasn't talked into this by someone with a vested interest. Is the paver guy his brother-in-law or something?)
posted by desuetude at 3:32 PM on November 9, 2007
Here's a table of the embodied energy of concrete.
BeaverTerror made most of my points- he won't be contributing anything in the fight against global warming by repaving the lawn with tile. One significant point, is that soil is a carbon sink. There is more CO2 stored in soil than in the atmosphere.
Best of luck- I really hope you manage to convince him.
posted by oneirodynia at 4:01 PM on November 9, 2007
BeaverTerror made most of my points- he won't be contributing anything in the fight against global warming by repaving the lawn with tile. One significant point, is that soil is a carbon sink. There is more CO2 stored in soil than in the atmosphere.
Best of luck- I really hope you manage to convince him.
posted by oneirodynia at 4:01 PM on November 9, 2007
Prepare to move. He sounds like he has his mind made up.
And why did he wait until after you'd moved in to drop this bomb? That's not just weird, it's unreasonable. This is not the kind of guy I'd want to have as a landlord.
posted by LuckySeven~ at 8:42 PM on November 9, 2007
And why did he wait until after you'd moved in to drop this bomb? That's not just weird, it's unreasonable. This is not the kind of guy I'd want to have as a landlord.
posted by LuckySeven~ at 8:42 PM on November 9, 2007
offer to pay your rent in carbon credits.
posted by Mr_Crazyhorse at 11:38 PM on November 9, 2007
posted by Mr_Crazyhorse at 11:38 PM on November 9, 2007
Best answer: Here's the state of California's xeriscaping page--would government documents convince him?
posted by brujita at 1:03 AM on November 10, 2007
posted by brujita at 1:03 AM on November 10, 2007
Response by poster: Update, for anyone still reading.
Unfortunately, even with a very persuasive letter that I wrote (chock-full of much of the amazing facts and figures offered by people in this thread!) that convinced him to hold off for awhile, we officially lost this argument with the landlord; we awoke today to find the grass being ripped out.
However, we did apparently convince him to keep the trees and the flower beds, though, as well as to replace the grass with environmentally safe paving. So it's a partial victory, I guess -- at least it isn't as bad as just pouring concrete over the whole shebang.
As for people wondering why we don't just move out: it's an adorable house otherwise, in a neighborhood we love, and we easily pay $500-1000 less every month than we'd pay for a comparable house in similar neighborhoods (the landlord cut us a deal because my boyfriend had rented the back guest house from him for about 5 years before the main house on the property became available).
As for the noise, my boyfriend constructed a set of window plugs with some serious-density foam and plywood. They're not going to win us any interior design awards, but at least we can sleep past 5:30 in the morning now.
posted by scody at 11:05 PM on March 8, 2008
Unfortunately, even with a very persuasive letter that I wrote (chock-full of much of the amazing facts and figures offered by people in this thread!) that convinced him to hold off for awhile, we officially lost this argument with the landlord; we awoke today to find the grass being ripped out.
However, we did apparently convince him to keep the trees and the flower beds, though, as well as to replace the grass with environmentally safe paving. So it's a partial victory, I guess -- at least it isn't as bad as just pouring concrete over the whole shebang.
As for people wondering why we don't just move out: it's an adorable house otherwise, in a neighborhood we love, and we easily pay $500-1000 less every month than we'd pay for a comparable house in similar neighborhoods (the landlord cut us a deal because my boyfriend had rented the back guest house from him for about 5 years before the main house on the property became available).
As for the noise, my boyfriend constructed a set of window plugs with some serious-density foam and plywood. They're not going to win us any interior design awards, but at least we can sleep past 5:30 in the morning now.
posted by scody at 11:05 PM on March 8, 2008
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 1:10 PM on November 9, 2007