Question about the plot of The Bourne Ultimatum

October 4, 2007 1:38 PM

Question about the plot of The Bourne Ultimatum, specifically about Bourne's memories of his early training (SPOILERS INSIDE, probably for all three Bourne movies).

I only saw it in a theater; I don't have a video copy to refer to yet (and I haven't read the book).

I'm wondering if I'm missing the point of the climactic scene where he's returned to the training facility and is confronting the guy who oversaw his training.

All through the movie we watch him have memories of torture that was part of his training -- sleep deprivation, water torture, psychological conditioning.

Then we get to that climactic moment where it's going to be revealed "what really happened to him," and it's just the footage of him choosing to shoot the prisoner, then the overseer guy telling him this was his moment of transformation from David Webb to Jason Bourne.

So in his dreams that we see, is he *inventing* those memories of all the torture -- like conflating it with real experiences (for example, in the flashes when we see him remembering his head being held underwater at the same time he's remembering Marie drowning) as a defense mechanism, to try to make himself think he was more forced into this life than he actually was?

Or did all that torture really happen, as the means of getting him from the initial point of idealistic volunteering to do "anything" for his country to that later point of actually choosing to shoot the defenseless prisoner?

Am I just reaching for extra implications behind that talking scene in the training facility, because it wasn't the big revealing climax I expected?

posted by sparrows to Media & Arts (14 answers total)

I think the point of that scene is that Bourne had spent all this time angry at what was done to him and what he was made to become, but when it came down to it the truth was that he chose to become who he was. The evidence is that he could have walked away at any time up until he shot the prisoner and he chose to stay of his own free will.

He wasn't inventing those memories; that likely happened after he shot the prisoner. But he had, up until the big reveal, believed that all this had happened against his will. Instead he learns that he wanted it to happen.
posted by Justinian at 1:43 PM on October 4, 2007

I think you'd have to read the books for the "right" answer, but my personal take was that the flashbacks were real, and he was tortured until he broke down and shot the prisoner, thus proving himself as a capable killer.
posted by thewittyname at 1:44 PM on October 4, 2007

I remember wondering if we were supposed to interpret all that as him misremembering what happened, and that he was the one who had tortured someone else.

I don't remember if I had good evidence for that theory. But I did find that part of the movie pretty confusing, too, and this was a possibility I came up with to try to fit it all together.

I do certainly agree with Justinian that the important part is that he had wanted it all.
posted by Ms. Saint at 1:46 PM on October 4, 2007

thewittyname's answer sounds right to me--though unfortunately, it looks as if the only thing the book has in common with the movie is that some of the characters have the same names.
posted by Prospero at 1:47 PM on October 4, 2007

As I recall: the torture was real. The flashbacks also show Bourne with a hood being pulled over his head - the same hood worn by the prisoner than Bourne eventually shoots. The prisoner and Bourne were also wearing the same uniform. The implication was that they were both taking part in the same training - whoever broke down first and killed the other would be accepted into the program.
posted by ludwig_van at 1:48 PM on October 4, 2007

It's possible that the guy he shot was the real Jason Bourne. (If there even is one.)
posted by kirkaracha at 1:52 PM on October 4, 2007

[I do have a video copy for reference, and have watched it a few times already.]

From what I understand, the books are very different(haven't read them). Much more complex and often not translatable.

In the movies. It seems he wanted to believe he didn't choose, but in the end we find out he did; in one of the flashbacks we hear him saying something involving "no", but at the end he remembers he was in agreement.

All of the torture did happen. We know this from his conversation with Nikky in the Spanish diner(just before the two policeman walk in) where she says that the agents needed to be "broken down" before they could be put into service.

We also get a hint that there was something deeper between him and Nikky. Unfortunately, if they do continue the series, Damon has stated that he has no desire to do any more of them. I personally can't see them being successful without him.
posted by a_green_man at 2:10 PM on October 4, 2007

I think you guys are reading too much into it.

He was tortured and broken down until he lost any sense of self and became an emotionless killing machine.

Wikipedia's take.
posted by atomly at 2:28 PM on October 4, 2007

I defintely saw the torture as really happening. The whole purpose of the torture was to break him down. When he is asked if he really wants to do this (I don't think he knew the full details at the time. He knew it was some kind of covert ops, but not necessarily killing people cold blooded), I get the impression that afterwards they break him down via torture until he would finally kill a man in cold blood. When he did that, his transformation was complete.
Also, they had mentioned resistance. He wasn't gung-ho about killing the dude. It's why the torture happened- so he'd actually kill him and thus be an assassin.

It all ties back to the first movie when he didn't kill the dude with his kids in the picture. If he isn't resistant to the programming and torture in the first place, he kills his target and there's no movies.
posted by jmd82 at 2:35 PM on October 4, 2007

The movies, while entertaining, deviate from the books pretty far.

They are almost two separate stories with the same character names.
posted by iamabot at 2:56 PM on October 4, 2007

The torture really happened, and was designed to break him down and remove his sense of self so he could take on any assignment and any cover.

But he volunteered for the job. He volunteered to have his identity removed. All the things that happened to him, he wanted to happen, even though he wouldn't remember who he was before he became Jason Bourne.

This is the big reveal -- that David Webb was just as evil, in his own way, as everyone else involved with Treadstone/Blackbriar.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 3:00 PM on October 4, 2007

David Webb was just as evil, in his own way, as everyone else involved

Ditto.

We have met the enemy and he is us.
posted by bonehead at 4:35 PM on October 4, 2007

Hmm. I had a different take. I didn't think that the torture was about breaking him down--to me, entering (and sticking with) the training showed that he'd made the choice. I always figured the 'torture' was about making him into the toughest motherfucker that ever there was. See, for example, the SERE (and other) training sequences in GI Jane.

If he knows what it feels like to drown, he won't panic if he's suddenly underwater, basically. Same thing with everything else. Shooting the other guy was just about making sure he could kill in cold blood without answers to his questions.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 4:58 PM on October 4, 2007

The torture happened, before he shoots the hooded guy. That's why the old guy says, when he's trying to convince Matt Damon to shoot, "you haven't slept in a long time" (paraphrased).
posted by inigo2 at 1:20 PM on October 5, 2007