Why does repetitive music make me nauseous?
March 17, 2007 2:42 AM Subscribe
Why does repetitive music make me nauseous?
Whenever I listen to obviously repetitive music (some techno, or happy hardcore for example) I experience quite a strong feeling of nausea, this often coincides with me consciously noticing the repetition in the music. I guess it may be something to do with low frequencies rather than repetition, but I don't experience any difference between music play on cheap headphones and that played through a PA.
I'm not looking for any kind of solution really, just curious if there is a scientific explanation. Thanks.
Whenever I listen to obviously repetitive music (some techno, or happy hardcore for example) I experience quite a strong feeling of nausea, this often coincides with me consciously noticing the repetition in the music. I guess it may be something to do with low frequencies rather than repetition, but I don't experience any difference between music play on cheap headphones and that played through a PA.
I'm not looking for any kind of solution really, just curious if there is a scientific explanation. Thanks.
At the end of your post, you question whether it's the repetition, or whether it has something to do with certain frequencies.
Have you listened to really repetitive music made with live instruments, like compositions by Philip Glass or Steve Reich? If that evokes the same response, than maybe it is the repetition that causes the reaction in you, not the combination of high volume and sounds that hammer certain frequencies.
But I think it's a leap to talk about one naturalized, physiological response to repetition when the way that we react to different sounds depends so much on one's musical taste, scene, culture etc. Lots of religious music from sub-saharan Africa, for example, can keep a repetitive groove going all night, without widespread vomiting as far as I know.
There are physical responses to high decibels and rumbling frequencies, sure, but the threshold is culturally determined to a certain extent. What about the millions who don't get nauseous from loud dance music? Punk rock that would make one person crazy could help someone else fall asleep at night.
I just don't want to teeter toward "Mozart makes your baby smart" but "Heavy Metal makes your plants wilt" kind of questionable thinking, that ultimately only serves to justify musical tastes using scientific language.
posted by umbú at 6:50 AM on March 17, 2007
Have you listened to really repetitive music made with live instruments, like compositions by Philip Glass or Steve Reich? If that evokes the same response, than maybe it is the repetition that causes the reaction in you, not the combination of high volume and sounds that hammer certain frequencies.
But I think it's a leap to talk about one naturalized, physiological response to repetition when the way that we react to different sounds depends so much on one's musical taste, scene, culture etc. Lots of religious music from sub-saharan Africa, for example, can keep a repetitive groove going all night, without widespread vomiting as far as I know.
There are physical responses to high decibels and rumbling frequencies, sure, but the threshold is culturally determined to a certain extent. What about the millions who don't get nauseous from loud dance music? Punk rock that would make one person crazy could help someone else fall asleep at night.
I just don't want to teeter toward "Mozart makes your baby smart" but "Heavy Metal makes your plants wilt" kind of questionable thinking, that ultimately only serves to justify musical tastes using scientific language.
posted by umbú at 6:50 AM on March 17, 2007
This actually happens to me sometimes when I drink too much. I personally have a theory that I get into a state of the "mental spins". Basically, sometimes if I've had too much to drink, I have the standard "the room is spinning" response, and that makes me nauseous. But other times, I'll get stuck in a mental loop. If there is repetitive music playing, it will get stuck in my head and I won't be able to get away from it, and it will eventually make me sick. I've had this happen with other things, too, one new years eve I tried to go to bed and I couldn't sleep, I couldn't stop playing boggle in my head over and over and over again and it made me sick.
Yeah, now that I type that out, it seems pretty weird.
posted by pazazygeek at 8:06 AM on March 17, 2007
Yeah, now that I type that out, it seems pretty weird.
posted by pazazygeek at 8:06 AM on March 17, 2007
Response by poster: Thanks for your replies.
I didn't mean to imply that I experience this solely with electronic music merely that is is most common - I have had the same experience while listening to some guitar based music. Nor am I implying that I dislike any of these types of music - whether I like the type of music or not seems to have no bearing on the sensation.
I'll try listening to your suggestions umbú, as I'm curious to experiment with the sensation now I've stopped to think about it.
posted by none at 8:14 AM on March 17, 2007
I didn't mean to imply that I experience this solely with electronic music merely that is is most common - I have had the same experience while listening to some guitar based music. Nor am I implying that I dislike any of these types of music - whether I like the type of music or not seems to have no bearing on the sensation.
I'll try listening to your suggestions umbú, as I'm curious to experiment with the sensation now I've stopped to think about it.
posted by none at 8:14 AM on March 17, 2007
What about drone music? Does that do it to you ,also?
posted by DenOfSizer at 8:17 AM on March 17, 2007
posted by DenOfSizer at 8:17 AM on March 17, 2007
It's probably a neurological response of some sort. I don't know or understand exactly what's at play, but I know that some people with some types of seizure disorders have sound triggers.
I have a seizure disorder and repetitive music makes me feel weird. I assumed it was because I had a broken brain.
posted by wildeepdotorg at 9:08 AM on March 17, 2007
I have a seizure disorder and repetitive music makes me feel weird. I assumed it was because I had a broken brain.
posted by wildeepdotorg at 9:08 AM on March 17, 2007
Slightly off-track, and not an answer (sorry)... I have this same feeling you describe when I am doing a task I find to be repetitive. Ex.: I worked for a company that required large amounts of mylar to be hole punched on an foot pedal air pressure machine; I felt nauseated doing this task.
I guess I'm saying it could be the repetition factor more than the music itself. Then again, maybe you were thinking the same thing.
posted by Laura in Canada at 9:14 AM on March 17, 2007
I guess I'm saying it could be the repetition factor more than the music itself. Then again, maybe you were thinking the same thing.
posted by Laura in Canada at 9:14 AM on March 17, 2007
Here is a page from epilepsy.com in which a few people talk about their experiences with seizures and sound. Strobe lights are so efficient at producing seizures, it would be surprising if 'strobe sounds' were completely innocuous.
posted by jamjam at 9:35 AM on March 17, 2007
posted by jamjam at 9:35 AM on March 17, 2007
Slightly off-track, and not an answer (sorry)... I have this same feeling you describe when I am doing a task I find to be repetitive. Ex.: I worked for a company that required large amounts of mylar to be hole punched on an foot pedal air pressure machine; I felt nauseated doing this task.
I've noticed this too. My theory is that boredom can be disorienting — if I get bored enough, my mind just "checks out" from my body — and disorientation can be nauseating.
Do you experience this with repetitive music you like? (Do you like any repetitive music?) Does it still happen if you're dancing, talking, working or otherwise keeping yourself occupied?
posted by nebulawindphone at 9:56 AM on March 17, 2007
I've noticed this too. My theory is that boredom can be disorienting — if I get bored enough, my mind just "checks out" from my body — and disorientation can be nauseating.
Do you experience this with repetitive music you like? (Do you like any repetitive music?) Does it still happen if you're dancing, talking, working or otherwise keeping yourself occupied?
posted by nebulawindphone at 9:56 AM on March 17, 2007
If you listen to techno through headphones, it becomes pretty obvious that the loops are panning back and forth between the speakers. Looped music seems to be the worst for this, because each loop may be "rattling" between the speakers at its own rate (preserved from the original recording), but you'll also hear this effect used in highly "produced" music from bands like Garbage, No Doubt, etc.
For me, headphones+gratuitous panning can make me feel like the whole band is sliding back and forth in front of me.
If you are listening to this stuff, your eyes and semicircular canals are telling you you're doing one thing, but your ears are adding in this swaying, rocking information, which could trigger motion sickness.
posted by Crosius at 11:00 AM on March 17, 2007
For me, headphones+gratuitous panning can make me feel like the whole band is sliding back and forth in front of me.
If you are listening to this stuff, your eyes and semicircular canals are telling you you're doing one thing, but your ears are adding in this swaying, rocking information, which could trigger motion sickness.
posted by Crosius at 11:00 AM on March 17, 2007
Hmm, Crosius may be on to something -- there are certain tracks I can't listen to on headphones without getting really disoriented, and they're all songs with hard, circular panning. Could be you're more sensitive to that sort of binaural stuff?
posted by sonofslim at 12:23 PM on March 17, 2007
posted by sonofslim at 12:23 PM on March 17, 2007
I have this problem too. Tool makes me sick, nearly to vomiting; SteveReich does not. I have wondered if it is the intensity of the bass as well as the repetition--it starts to feel like a ride I can't get off of.
posted by Riverine at 12:43 PM on March 17, 2007
posted by Riverine at 12:43 PM on March 17, 2007
If you then have an ear that is well trained musically, or have perfect pitch, or even relative perfect pitch, the result of such assemblages will not, generally, sound musical at all, and can be quite upsetting.
I don't want to start a fight here, but I'm pretty sure this is total bs. I have relative pitch that is basically perfect (as well as a whole lot of musical training, classical), and I listen to a ton of electronica, and even make my own. I have never been made nauseous. I know others as well, though admittedly no one with perfect pitch. Also, many (though by no means all) people making electronic music have a substantial amount of music training. However, I do know people of older generations who simply don't like this kind of music, and the reasons are ultimately aesthetic, not not physiological. For instance, I bet my dad would get very uncomfortable around loud electronica, but this is because it's very very different from any music he likes (classical vocal/brass music). (My sister and I were once playing some juno reactor for him and he said to my mother "our children are aliens!")
Also, "intermodulation distortion" is present in a wide variety of music afaik, and it is often used to musical effect (e.g. in a tube amp). This is why it's common in electronic music, because people are often trying to simulate the non-linear characteristics of tube amps to get an "analog" sound (which, incidentally, if done right is usually described as "smooth" and "warm".). Too much of it at the wrong frequencies _may_ cause some listener fatigue effect, but I've never heard of this (I would be interested in seeing any discussion of this, though, if there is a source.)
There _are_ psychoacoustic effects that can make listeners uncomfortable, but they are not specific to any kind of music. For instance too much content in the 2-4kHz range (esp. at 3kHz) can produce listener fatigue over time at high volumes (I've read this in various discussions about mixing, the source I have on my desk right now is this one; the information is online here). I've read that too much high-frequency distortion can cause listener fatigue also, but I don't know where I saw this (googling just now only lead to a sidebar in a radio trade publication). There could be effects of significant amounts of sub-bass, I don't know that much about this topic -- subbass would be present at many live shows, including electronic ones. However, the only effect I know of is just an urban legend, the supposed brown note. Books about mixing just tell you things like that too much sub-bass makes a mix sound "muddy" (which is very true). I've also never heard of repetition itself being a cause of listener fatigue, but again who knows -- I don't think psychoacoustics are very well understood. If you want to go into it more, there is academic/experimental (in the psychology sense, not the musical sense) work on most of this, I'm not familiar with it myself though.
posted by advil at 3:15 PM on March 17, 2007 [1 favorite]
I don't want to start a fight here, but I'm pretty sure this is total bs. I have relative pitch that is basically perfect (as well as a whole lot of musical training, classical), and I listen to a ton of electronica, and even make my own. I have never been made nauseous. I know others as well, though admittedly no one with perfect pitch. Also, many (though by no means all) people making electronic music have a substantial amount of music training. However, I do know people of older generations who simply don't like this kind of music, and the reasons are ultimately aesthetic, not not physiological. For instance, I bet my dad would get very uncomfortable around loud electronica, but this is because it's very very different from any music he likes (classical vocal/brass music). (My sister and I were once playing some juno reactor for him and he said to my mother "our children are aliens!")
Also, "intermodulation distortion" is present in a wide variety of music afaik, and it is often used to musical effect (e.g. in a tube amp). This is why it's common in electronic music, because people are often trying to simulate the non-linear characteristics of tube amps to get an "analog" sound (which, incidentally, if done right is usually described as "smooth" and "warm".). Too much of it at the wrong frequencies _may_ cause some listener fatigue effect, but I've never heard of this (I would be interested in seeing any discussion of this, though, if there is a source.)
There _are_ psychoacoustic effects that can make listeners uncomfortable, but they are not specific to any kind of music. For instance too much content in the 2-4kHz range (esp. at 3kHz) can produce listener fatigue over time at high volumes (I've read this in various discussions about mixing, the source I have on my desk right now is this one; the information is online here). I've read that too much high-frequency distortion can cause listener fatigue also, but I don't know where I saw this (googling just now only lead to a sidebar in a radio trade publication). There could be effects of significant amounts of sub-bass, I don't know that much about this topic -- subbass would be present at many live shows, including electronic ones. However, the only effect I know of is just an urban legend, the supposed brown note. Books about mixing just tell you things like that too much sub-bass makes a mix sound "muddy" (which is very true). I've also never heard of repetition itself being a cause of listener fatigue, but again who knows -- I don't think psychoacoustics are very well understood. If you want to go into it more, there is academic/experimental (in the psychology sense, not the musical sense) work on most of this, I'm not familiar with it myself though.
posted by advil at 3:15 PM on March 17, 2007 [1 favorite]
happy hardcore should make pretty much anyone nauseous.
posted by atom128 at 4:22 PM on March 17, 2007
posted by atom128 at 4:22 PM on March 17, 2007
Occasionally music with very high bass levels will make me feel sick to my stomach. Not nauseous exactly, but very unpleasant. I've always assumed this was from the music hitting the resonant frequency of some body part that doesn't particularly care to be vibrated.
I see you get this with headphones as well -- perhaps some frequencies are affecting your inner ear and sense of balance in a way that causes the nausea?
posted by yohko at 5:55 PM on March 17, 2007
I see you get this with headphones as well -- perhaps some frequencies are affecting your inner ear and sense of balance in a way that causes the nausea?
posted by yohko at 5:55 PM on March 17, 2007
"I don't want to start a fight here, but I'm pretty sure this is total bs."
It's not "total bs," it's basic electronic amplifier design principles, known by millions since the 1930's :-) Books on the topic are generally available at public libraries. I recommend The Standard Handbook of Audio and Radio Engineering as a one volume reference.
"... Also, "intermodulation distortion" is present in a wide variety of music afaik, and it is often used to musical effect (e.g. in a tube amp). ..."
Audio amplifiers of analog designs (Class A, Class B, Class AB) produce at least two kinds of distortion that are commonly measured as indications of amplifier performance. The better the amplifier, the lower its contribution of distortion products of all types, with decent audio amplifiers usually producing a few hundredths of a per cent of total distortion products when operated at their extremes.
Harmonic distortion occurs when an amplifier creates extraneous output at harmonic or sub-harmonic multiples of a frequency it is asked to produce. Harmonic distortion can occur for even and odd order harmonics, but the design of a given amplifier will generally favor the production of either even or odd order harmonics, as a matter of phase coupling between stages. Fed a 2000 Hz sine wave, all but perfect amplifiers will have some output components at 1000 and 4000 Hz, as well as decreasing amounts (hopefully!) at 500 and 8000 Hz, 250 and 16,000 Hz, etc. Harmonic distortion is not "unmusical" to most ears, because it tends to mimic the natural harmonic overtone series present in many resonant instruments, and to work with the very mechanisms of human hearing, but it is fairly easily detected by human ears, such that amounts of more than 0.5% Total Harmonic Distortion products will be readily apparent to most listeners as a timbre change when compared with unprocessed signal. Thus, harmonic distortion is sometimes sought by electronic musicians as a means of "warming" or "thickening" a sound source, although such additions are objectionable to many listeners.
Intermodulation distortion is produced when an amplifier, fed a complex waveform consisting of multiple frequencies not in harmonic relationship, beats those frequencies together, to produce non-harmonic output artifacts. Given tones of equal amplitude simultaneously, at 1900 and 2000 Hz, an amplifier exhibiting intermodulation distortion will produce output products at every beat frequency, i.e. 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, etc. in varying strengths, depending on the architecture of its design, and the number and organization of gain stages the amplifier contains. Moreover, there will be lesser levels of distortion products at all the beat frequencies of the beat products! Thus, 1.9, 2.9, 3.9, 4.9.....19.9K, 20.9K and every other cross-product beat frequency present. Inter-modulation distortion products are therefore not at all harmonically related and are readily identified in amounts as small as .1% Total Intermodulation Distortion (a level much lower than for harmonic distortion products) as harsh, edgy noise from an amplifier. Long exposure to high levels of intermodulation distortion is reported as fatiguing and unpleasant by most listeners. In my experience, women are particularly sensistive to intermodulation distortion, possibly due to their generally better abilities to hear high frequencies.
Negative feedback can almost completely cancel harmonic distortion in an audio amplifier, and has been the chief means of ensuring linear output and flat frequency response in audio amplifiers for more than 70 years. But, at best, negative feedback is only partially effective in controlling intermodulation distortion, and amplifiers which depend on negative feedback alone to control distortion sometimes actually display both higher levels of intermodulation distortion when fed highly complex signals, and poor response to high amplitude transient signals, even breaking over into ringing oscillations, which are also horribly unmusical.
Moreover, the application of large amounts of negative feedback to control intermodulation distortion usually requires that more gain stages be added to the amplifier design, or that devices of inherently higher gain be used, to overcome the powerful damping effect of negative feedback. These choices inevitably compromise amplifier stability and increase cost, while they also make the amplifier design more subject to other high order non-linearities.
Animals with extended hearing range can sometimes be quite sensitive to audio equipment generating large amounts of distortion, even if the overall volume of sound produced is not excessive. It's not uncommon for dogs or cats to leave a room when a recording of sound with high order transient distortion products such as intermodulation distortion, clipping, or ringing is played, and for them to return, albeit slowly, when such sound sources are stopped. I've seen this happen hundreds of times, over many years, in the homes of audiophiles and in commercial sound reinforcement and broadcast engineering settings in which I've worked professionally.
So from experience and observation, if the pooches or the women are leaving an area, or otherwise looking like they aren't enjoying the music, I recommend that men and older people leave the area too, or turn down the sound, or better yet, fix the distortion problem. I think that this is the basis for the Army's frequent choice of electronic music in psyops operations, too.
posted by paulsc at 6:08 PM on March 17, 2007
It's not "total bs," it's basic electronic amplifier design principles, known by millions since the 1930's :-) Books on the topic are generally available at public libraries. I recommend The Standard Handbook of Audio and Radio Engineering as a one volume reference.
"... Also, "intermodulation distortion" is present in a wide variety of music afaik, and it is often used to musical effect (e.g. in a tube amp). ..."
Audio amplifiers of analog designs (Class A, Class B, Class AB) produce at least two kinds of distortion that are commonly measured as indications of amplifier performance. The better the amplifier, the lower its contribution of distortion products of all types, with decent audio amplifiers usually producing a few hundredths of a per cent of total distortion products when operated at their extremes.
Harmonic distortion occurs when an amplifier creates extraneous output at harmonic or sub-harmonic multiples of a frequency it is asked to produce. Harmonic distortion can occur for even and odd order harmonics, but the design of a given amplifier will generally favor the production of either even or odd order harmonics, as a matter of phase coupling between stages. Fed a 2000 Hz sine wave, all but perfect amplifiers will have some output components at 1000 and 4000 Hz, as well as decreasing amounts (hopefully!) at 500 and 8000 Hz, 250 and 16,000 Hz, etc. Harmonic distortion is not "unmusical" to most ears, because it tends to mimic the natural harmonic overtone series present in many resonant instruments, and to work with the very mechanisms of human hearing, but it is fairly easily detected by human ears, such that amounts of more than 0.5% Total Harmonic Distortion products will be readily apparent to most listeners as a timbre change when compared with unprocessed signal. Thus, harmonic distortion is sometimes sought by electronic musicians as a means of "warming" or "thickening" a sound source, although such additions are objectionable to many listeners.
Intermodulation distortion is produced when an amplifier, fed a complex waveform consisting of multiple frequencies not in harmonic relationship, beats those frequencies together, to produce non-harmonic output artifacts. Given tones of equal amplitude simultaneously, at 1900 and 2000 Hz, an amplifier exhibiting intermodulation distortion will produce output products at every beat frequency, i.e. 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, etc. in varying strengths, depending on the architecture of its design, and the number and organization of gain stages the amplifier contains. Moreover, there will be lesser levels of distortion products at all the beat frequencies of the beat products! Thus, 1.9, 2.9, 3.9, 4.9.....19.9K, 20.9K and every other cross-product beat frequency present. Inter-modulation distortion products are therefore not at all harmonically related and are readily identified in amounts as small as .1% Total Intermodulation Distortion (a level much lower than for harmonic distortion products) as harsh, edgy noise from an amplifier. Long exposure to high levels of intermodulation distortion is reported as fatiguing and unpleasant by most listeners. In my experience, women are particularly sensistive to intermodulation distortion, possibly due to their generally better abilities to hear high frequencies.
Negative feedback can almost completely cancel harmonic distortion in an audio amplifier, and has been the chief means of ensuring linear output and flat frequency response in audio amplifiers for more than 70 years. But, at best, negative feedback is only partially effective in controlling intermodulation distortion, and amplifiers which depend on negative feedback alone to control distortion sometimes actually display both higher levels of intermodulation distortion when fed highly complex signals, and poor response to high amplitude transient signals, even breaking over into ringing oscillations, which are also horribly unmusical.
Moreover, the application of large amounts of negative feedback to control intermodulation distortion usually requires that more gain stages be added to the amplifier design, or that devices of inherently higher gain be used, to overcome the powerful damping effect of negative feedback. These choices inevitably compromise amplifier stability and increase cost, while they also make the amplifier design more subject to other high order non-linearities.
Animals with extended hearing range can sometimes be quite sensitive to audio equipment generating large amounts of distortion, even if the overall volume of sound produced is not excessive. It's not uncommon for dogs or cats to leave a room when a recording of sound with high order transient distortion products such as intermodulation distortion, clipping, or ringing is played, and for them to return, albeit slowly, when such sound sources are stopped. I've seen this happen hundreds of times, over many years, in the homes of audiophiles and in commercial sound reinforcement and broadcast engineering settings in which I've worked professionally.
So from experience and observation, if the pooches or the women are leaving an area, or otherwise looking like they aren't enjoying the music, I recommend that men and older people leave the area too, or turn down the sound, or better yet, fix the distortion problem. I think that this is the basis for the Army's frequent choice of electronic music in psyops operations, too.
posted by paulsc at 6:08 PM on March 17, 2007
I don't think it was the existence of intermodulation distortion that was in doubt - I think it was more the implied claim that generally, people with a good sense of pitch and musical training will find electronic music fatiguing and unmusical, which, given the large number of extremely gifted and musical electronic music producers with a large amount of musical training - often with excellent traditional musical skills - is patently untrue.
Interesting and informative posts, though - thanks!
posted by Jon Mitchell at 7:15 PM on March 17, 2007
Interesting and informative posts, though - thanks!
posted by Jon Mitchell at 7:15 PM on March 17, 2007
It's not "total bs," it's basic electronic amplifier design principles
Yes, just to be clear, what I was calling bs is (as Jon Mitchell suggests) this: "If you then have an ear that is well trained musically, or have perfect pitch, or even relative perfect pitch, the result of such assemblages will not, generally, sound musical at all, and can be quite upsetting."
I am willing to believe you on the intermodulation distortion thing (I didn't mean to call that bs), I think I've just seen the term used incorrectly -- to encompass harmonic distortion (e.g. wikipedia does this). However, I'm also still not sure I see how the process of creating electronic music is going to introduce any, now that I have a more specific idea of what it is.
posted by advil at 7:44 PM on March 17, 2007
Yes, just to be clear, what I was calling bs is (as Jon Mitchell suggests) this: "If you then have an ear that is well trained musically, or have perfect pitch, or even relative perfect pitch, the result of such assemblages will not, generally, sound musical at all, and can be quite upsetting."
I am willing to believe you on the intermodulation distortion thing (I didn't mean to call that bs), I think I've just seen the term used incorrectly -- to encompass harmonic distortion (e.g. wikipedia does this). However, I'm also still not sure I see how the process of creating electronic music is going to introduce any, now that I have a more specific idea of what it is.
posted by advil at 7:44 PM on March 17, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
If you then have an ear that is well trained musically, or have perfect pitch, or even relative perfect pitch, the result of such assemblages will not, generally, sound musical at all, and can be quite upsetting. I find most electronic music quite fatiguing to hear, and if I'm more than a little bit inebriated, I can easily become nauseous in the presence of high volume electronica. I'm never nauseous otherwise, and the sensation quickly passes in minutes if I leave the area.
So, I think there is a physiological basis for this reaction, but whether I've captured it in the above observations or not is more a matter of conjecture than science. I don't know of definitive double-blind physiological studies that make the connection. The U.S. Army psyops units have made use of loud music in some well publicized operations, and I don't think they were playing Duke Ellington or Brahms :-)
posted by paulsc at 4:49 AM on March 17, 2007