What to do with a nativity set created by a pedophile?
December 22, 2006 7:47 PM Subscribe
A friend recently found out she owns a nativity set painted by a local priest who has been convicted of child molestation. As a victim of abuse herself, she wants it out of the house but would prefer to somehow sell it and donate the proceeds to a relevant advocacy group. Is this reasonable or should she just smash it up and toss it?
It really is a nice nativity set. She won it at a church raffle decades ago, and only this year noticed the initials and year inscribed on the pieces that confirm they were painted by the convicted pedophile.
Is she better off selling it without mentioning the origin or stating the origin and spinning it as a charity auction? Either way she plans on donating the money to an abuse prevention program.
On the one hand, it seems weird to sell it as the set painted by a pedophile. On the other hand, maybe it would give someone pleasure to smash it to bits?
It really is a nice nativity set. She won it at a church raffle decades ago, and only this year noticed the initials and year inscribed on the pieces that confirm they were painted by the convicted pedophile.
Is she better off selling it without mentioning the origin or stating the origin and spinning it as a charity auction? Either way she plans on donating the money to an abuse prevention program.
On the one hand, it seems weird to sell it as the set painted by a pedophile. On the other hand, maybe it would give someone pleasure to smash it to bits?
Would she really feel comfortable selling/giving it to someone who did not know the set's origin?
Would she really feel comfortable selling/giving it to someone who did know the set's origin and wanted it anyway?
posted by rhapsodie at 8:17 PM on December 22, 2006 [1 favorite]
Would she really feel comfortable selling/giving it to someone who did know the set's origin and wanted it anyway?
posted by rhapsodie at 8:17 PM on December 22, 2006 [1 favorite]
Just give it away. Send it anonymously to someplace on the other side of the country, where the priest's name isn't well known.
posted by Liosliath at 8:17 PM on December 22, 2006
posted by Liosliath at 8:17 PM on December 22, 2006
Maybe she could raffle it specifically to be smashed? I know on campus the undergrads do a 'donate money, smash the car' thing during finals week.
Er, maybe that won't work as it's a nativity. Still, I vote for breaking as a theraputic technique.
posted by cobaltnine at 8:26 PM on December 22, 2006
Er, maybe that won't work as it's a nativity. Still, I vote for breaking as a theraputic technique.
posted by cobaltnine at 8:26 PM on December 22, 2006
"Hey, we've got a nativity set painted by a proven pedophile! Anyone want to bid a little extra for it? It's for charity!"
Am I the only person who finds this creepy?
I also find the idea of smashing up some inanimate object because someone who had something to do with its creation had done something bad to someone else, and a totally different person did something similarly bad to ~you~ to be.. odd. I mean.. if he'd helped detail a car, would you think someone would want to smash ~that~ up because he'd done some painting on it?
posted by Meep! Eek! at 8:32 PM on December 22, 2006 [1 favorite]
Am I the only person who finds this creepy?
I also find the idea of smashing up some inanimate object because someone who had something to do with its creation had done something bad to someone else, and a totally different person did something similarly bad to ~you~ to be.. odd. I mean.. if he'd helped detail a car, would you think someone would want to smash ~that~ up because he'd done some painting on it?
posted by Meep! Eek! at 8:32 PM on December 22, 2006 [1 favorite]
cobaltnine: Er, maybe that won't work as it's a nativity. Still, I vote for breaking as a theraputic technique.
Okay, I will admit it. I don't understand this mindset. You have a set of religious icons which were created by some unnamed individual (or, more likely, company). They were painted by a local priest who was (later, I assume) convicted of child molestation. Both you and the poster seem to feel that a natural impulse would be to smash up a religious set, not created by but painted by a molester who didn't actually molest the owner of said religious set. I am at a complete loss as to how this would be therapeutic. He wasn't her molester. It won't hurt him or any other molester including her own. What am I missing?
mrgoldenbrown: Really, sell it somewhere where it won't be known that this priest did this and don't make an issue out of it. Take the money from the sale and send it to the cause she's interested in funding. The less drama the better, especially for your friend, I would think. Drama has a tendency to bring back bad memories.
posted by Meep! Eek! at 8:47 PM on December 22, 2006
Okay, I will admit it. I don't understand this mindset. You have a set of religious icons which were created by some unnamed individual (or, more likely, company). They were painted by a local priest who was (later, I assume) convicted of child molestation. Both you and the poster seem to feel that a natural impulse would be to smash up a religious set, not created by but painted by a molester who didn't actually molest the owner of said religious set. I am at a complete loss as to how this would be therapeutic. He wasn't her molester. It won't hurt him or any other molester including her own. What am I missing?
mrgoldenbrown: Really, sell it somewhere where it won't be known that this priest did this and don't make an issue out of it. Take the money from the sale and send it to the cause she's interested in funding. The less drama the better, especially for your friend, I would think. Drama has a tendency to bring back bad memories.
posted by Meep! Eek! at 8:47 PM on December 22, 2006
I think it would be pointless and wasteful to smash the nativity set. If your friend must get rid of it, sell it on ebay, or paint over the man's name and sell it locally.
posted by orange swan at 8:53 PM on December 22, 2006
posted by orange swan at 8:53 PM on December 22, 2006
Didn't the teacher who started out life as the baby in that manger talk about forgiveness?
Sell it and donate the money -- and say a prayer for the person who made it, and the ones he harmed.
posted by ottereroticist at 9:04 PM on December 22, 2006 [5 favorites]
Sell it and donate the money -- and say a prayer for the person who made it, and the ones he harmed.
posted by ottereroticist at 9:04 PM on December 22, 2006 [5 favorites]
I can't quite understand the impetus of giving it away or selling it, but if she must get rid of it I would just donate it (not sell it) to an organization that would appreciate it.
Why did she go to the trouble of figure out it was painted by this person? It seems like she was just asking for trouble. Does she somehow think "evil" has been inculcated into the paint?
I'm the only one who thinks we probably use and enjoy things every day that a pedophile had a hand in creating?
posted by dgeiser13 at 9:12 PM on December 22, 2006
Why did she go to the trouble of figure out it was painted by this person? It seems like she was just asking for trouble. Does she somehow think "evil" has been inculcated into the paint?
I'm the only one who thinks we probably use and enjoy things every day that a pedophile had a hand in creating?
posted by dgeiser13 at 9:12 PM on December 22, 2006
I think selling it under the pretense of anything but it being a regular, nondescript item would be really wrong. After all, it's that kind of profiting from somebody's horrific crime, even if the money is used for a good purpose? And who would buy such a "pedo-made nativity" other than someone that is seriously disturbed in their own right? I say just donate it to somebody that actually wants it, and don't mention its origin. Paint over or scratch out the maker's mark if necessary. If destroying it would really bring catharsis to its current owner then so be it, but just because it was made by a particular person doesn't mean it couldn't still be put to use by someone else.
posted by Rhomboid at 9:30 PM on December 22, 2006
posted by Rhomboid at 9:30 PM on December 22, 2006
I don't think the criminal history of the creator has anything to do with selling it. It's not like the artwork itself was involved in his acts, and it's not like the funds are aiding him. I don't think you'd be doing anything wrong if you sold it but didn't disclose that it was created by a pedophile.
If she'd prefer to smash it, that's her prerogative, although I can't bring myself to recommend smashing a nativity set on Christmas.
posted by fogster at 9:31 PM on December 22, 2006
If she'd prefer to smash it, that's her prerogative, although I can't bring myself to recommend smashing a nativity set on Christmas.
posted by fogster at 9:31 PM on December 22, 2006
Couldn't she just repaint it?
posted by internet!Hannah at 10:07 PM on December 22, 2006
posted by internet!Hannah at 10:07 PM on December 22, 2006
it is a symbol of lies, painted holiness, false purity. it's not the same as other things he may have created, because it's ment to be a symbol of divinity, holiness , light.
if she is troubled by this object for what it represents, she may want to purge the object , lay it bare for what it is. is it made of wood, or plastic, metal , ceramic?
to simply smash it would not truly unmask what it represents. what it represents is a wolf in sheep's clothing. this item is powerful psychologically to those who feel victimized in that manner, to blow that off is a mistake.
i'm not sure what i would do in her shoes, but i think removing the paint might be a good place to start, using paint thinner or some other solvent, or simply setting up a burn pit for the object. it may seem foolish , but once the artful mask has been removed, seeing the clumsy material it's made of with out it's serene depiction of devotion, maybe it will help to disassociate the actions of the priest, from the idea of the nativity. i know that this may seem an strange approach, but i thought i would mention it. hope she can find the best thing that fits for her.
posted by nola at 11:36 PM on December 22, 2006 [1 favorite]
if she is troubled by this object for what it represents, she may want to purge the object , lay it bare for what it is. is it made of wood, or plastic, metal , ceramic?
to simply smash it would not truly unmask what it represents. what it represents is a wolf in sheep's clothing. this item is powerful psychologically to those who feel victimized in that manner, to blow that off is a mistake.
i'm not sure what i would do in her shoes, but i think removing the paint might be a good place to start, using paint thinner or some other solvent, or simply setting up a burn pit for the object. it may seem foolish , but once the artful mask has been removed, seeing the clumsy material it's made of with out it's serene depiction of devotion, maybe it will help to disassociate the actions of the priest, from the idea of the nativity. i know that this may seem an strange approach, but i thought i would mention it. hope she can find the best thing that fits for her.
posted by nola at 11:36 PM on December 22, 2006 [1 favorite]
I second the idea of removing the paint and re-painting it. It's sort of symbolic and might be more therapeutic than smashing -- undoing something that is generally accepted as permanent, then repairing damage that is in some ways irreparable. If only we could really go back in time to undo these sorts of things.
Besides which, if she sells the set after repainting it, she will be selling something that isn't tainted, at least not in the same way. And even if she doesn't reveal its history, it would be good for her to know.
Alternately, she could ask a clergyman/woman she trusts to repaint the set.
posted by brina at 11:52 PM on December 22, 2006
Besides which, if she sells the set after repainting it, she will be selling something that isn't tainted, at least not in the same way. And even if she doesn't reveal its history, it would be good for her to know.
Alternately, she could ask a clergyman/woman she trusts to repaint the set.
posted by brina at 11:52 PM on December 22, 2006
QUCIK! Wrap it up nice, write a letter to the bastard saying just what you've told us, (I.E. just having the thing around makes your family sick) and send it you the sicko as a chirstmas present.
(sorry if someone else already suggested this, I was too angry to read everyone eles's ideas)
and Merry Christmas!
posted by nintendo at 3:31 AM on December 23, 2006
(sorry if someone else already suggested this, I was too angry to read everyone eles's ideas)
and Merry Christmas!
posted by nintendo at 3:31 AM on December 23, 2006
I don't see the problem in eBay-ing it. I'm sure that somewhere in my house there has been something that was made by a criminal - after all I never ran background checks on the people who assembled my phone, bound my books, made my cat food, or sewed my clothes. Just sell it to someone who would enjoy it, get the money, and donate it. That'll be doing something good rather than smashing it, which will give you ten minutes of drama and then nothing else for the victims of molestation.
posted by christinetheslp at 6:26 AM on December 23, 2006
posted by christinetheslp at 6:26 AM on December 23, 2006
It seems that your friend is certainly religious. If so, do you really think that destroying a nativity is a good idea? At Christmas?
Selling it as an artifact created by a pedophile is tacky and unseemly. Does she really want to commercialize the sin?
If she really can't stand to have it in her presence any longer, giving it away to someone unlikely to discover its roots would seem to be the thing to do.
Or she could keep it as a symbol that no one is completely evil and irredeemable. Even the most corrupt souls can sometimes produce works of beauty. We never fail to forget that we are all sinners, but we are all children of God, also. We all have it within us to be good. Sometime all that it takes to bring that out is a little forgiveness.
I would tell her to keep it. In the memory of Christ and his lessons of forgiveness and acceptance.
posted by oddman at 7:00 AM on December 23, 2006
Selling it as an artifact created by a pedophile is tacky and unseemly. Does she really want to commercialize the sin?
If she really can't stand to have it in her presence any longer, giving it away to someone unlikely to discover its roots would seem to be the thing to do.
Or she could keep it as a symbol that no one is completely evil and irredeemable. Even the most corrupt souls can sometimes produce works of beauty. We never fail to forget that we are all sinners, but we are all children of God, also. We all have it within us to be good. Sometime all that it takes to bring that out is a little forgiveness.
I would tell her to keep it. In the memory of Christ and his lessons of forgiveness and acceptance.
posted by oddman at 7:00 AM on December 23, 2006
I am sure there are some details that are going to be missing from my suggestion, as this idea is still forming in my head, but here it is:
Put away the nativity for this year. Before the Advent/Christmas season next year, paint the figurines white (or strip the paint off of them). Then have a Christmas party for local Christian kids or Christian kids at a local children's hospital or something like that, and make it a "painting party" for the nativity scene.
Of course, this will take a bit of planning, you will have to decide if you want to tell the parents why you are doing it, and it won't look as good as it does now.
Yet, considering how this crime take so much from children (and I say this as a clergyman who has spent the better part of nine years training congregations to prevent child sexual abuse), this could be a cool, but very subtle way to let kids kind of take something back from this abuser.
What is more, it might give you a new way to look at and enjoy this nativity, or you could even donate it to the parish where this priest served, as a way to help them heal, while giving them a way, each Christmas, to remember what it means to worship a God who identifies with children enough to become one.
Just a few thoughts. Best wishes on whatever you decide.
posted by 4ster at 8:02 AM on December 23, 2006
Put away the nativity for this year. Before the Advent/Christmas season next year, paint the figurines white (or strip the paint off of them). Then have a Christmas party for local Christian kids or Christian kids at a local children's hospital or something like that, and make it a "painting party" for the nativity scene.
Of course, this will take a bit of planning, you will have to decide if you want to tell the parents why you are doing it, and it won't look as good as it does now.
Yet, considering how this crime take so much from children (and I say this as a clergyman who has spent the better part of nine years training congregations to prevent child sexual abuse), this could be a cool, but very subtle way to let kids kind of take something back from this abuser.
What is more, it might give you a new way to look at and enjoy this nativity, or you could even donate it to the parish where this priest served, as a way to help them heal, while giving them a way, each Christmas, to remember what it means to worship a God who identifies with children enough to become one.
Just a few thoughts. Best wishes on whatever you decide.
posted by 4ster at 8:02 AM on December 23, 2006
no matter what you do, i think step one is to use a solvent and scrub off his name, or scratch it off, or paint over it. permanently anonymize this thing so no one else who ever gets it googles it and finds out who painted it. even if your chosen final destination for the set isn't a creepy one, maybe it's prudent to make sure no-one else down the line can trace the thing's origin.
i am 100% against the idea of advertising it as the work of a pervert. there's no way you want to hand it over to anyone who would want it under that banner.
posted by twistofrhyme at 10:16 AM on December 23, 2006
i am 100% against the idea of advertising it as the work of a pervert. there's no way you want to hand it over to anyone who would want it under that banner.
posted by twistofrhyme at 10:16 AM on December 23, 2006
Is there any reason she can't just send it back to the parish of origin, after explaining why she's sending it back?
posted by medea42 at 11:03 AM on December 23, 2006
posted by medea42 at 11:03 AM on December 23, 2006
I suggest she find it in her heart to forgive the man his sins, as Jesus would do, and keep the set in remembrance and recognition of what has passed. Beauty can come from ugliness and ugliness from beauty.
posted by Roger Dodger at 11:39 AM on December 23, 2006
posted by Roger Dodger at 11:39 AM on December 23, 2006
I think she should do whatever she is most comfortable with. Terrible answer, I know, but people have strong feelings about pedophilia and I can see how the feelings can get transferred to an inanimate object. If it makes her feel better to smash it, then do it. Perhaps down the road she could explore her feelings about it, or not.
I guess I don't have as much of a visceral anger reaction to sex offenders anymore since I began treating them. I guess I realized by talking to them that they aren't "monsters". They're people who have a bad problem and who did something (or a bunch of things) terrible that profoundly victimized others. Personally I'd probably keep the set - and then get involved in the prevention of child sexual abuse in a manner that might actually reduce its frequency. Smashing it certainly won't make that happen.
posted by forensicphd at 12:04 PM on December 23, 2006
I guess I don't have as much of a visceral anger reaction to sex offenders anymore since I began treating them. I guess I realized by talking to them that they aren't "monsters". They're people who have a bad problem and who did something (or a bunch of things) terrible that profoundly victimized others. Personally I'd probably keep the set - and then get involved in the prevention of child sexual abuse in a manner that might actually reduce its frequency. Smashing it certainly won't make that happen.
posted by forensicphd at 12:04 PM on December 23, 2006
There is no inherent evil in the nativity set. Ebay it, sell it, or give it away, so that any inherent beauty can be appreciated. The more effort put into the object, the more power he still has as a molester. Get it, and him, out of her life.
Moving towards forgiveness and understanding is a good ideal, but having an item so closely affiliated with a molester around is not a good idea.
posted by theora55 at 1:34 PM on December 23, 2006
Moving towards forgiveness and understanding is a good ideal, but having an item so closely affiliated with a molester around is not a good idea.
posted by theora55 at 1:34 PM on December 23, 2006
She should just give it away if it's really bothering her but possibly learn something important in the meantime. Paint is not pedophilia, the objects are just physical objects, they hold no power in themselves, they're just chunks of wood (or whatever they're made of), the man's spirit does not live in them.
Is ascribing power to these things not akin to breaking the 'no graven images' commandment which warns against believing in the mystical power of mere things, a sort of worship of material objects, believing there's more to them than there is?
Worth considering may be Paul's lesson to the Corinthians about eating meat sacrificed to false gods. He said there was no danger because the sacrificial ritual added nothing whatsoever, no power, no meaning, nothing to the physical object. A piece of meat is just a piece of meat and if you know that, there's no harm. Unless you're doing it in the presence of someone 'weaker', lacking this understanding, and therefor vulnerable.
IMO, she shouldn't repaint or scratch out initials, doing that might only reinforce the notion that the perp still needs to be faught physically, that he retains some sort of physical control or influence over children, which he doesn't in reality.
posted by scheptech at 2:22 PM on December 23, 2006
Is ascribing power to these things not akin to breaking the 'no graven images' commandment which warns against believing in the mystical power of mere things, a sort of worship of material objects, believing there's more to them than there is?
Worth considering may be Paul's lesson to the Corinthians about eating meat sacrificed to false gods. He said there was no danger because the sacrificial ritual added nothing whatsoever, no power, no meaning, nothing to the physical object. A piece of meat is just a piece of meat and if you know that, there's no harm. Unless you're doing it in the presence of someone 'weaker', lacking this understanding, and therefor vulnerable.
IMO, she shouldn't repaint or scratch out initials, doing that might only reinforce the notion that the perp still needs to be faught physically, that he retains some sort of physical control or influence over children, which he doesn't in reality.
posted by scheptech at 2:22 PM on December 23, 2006
Response by poster: I want to thank everyone for answering. To answer some of the questions brought up:
The friend doesn't believe the set itself is evil, but she wants it out of the house because she is creeped out by it being there. Sure we all probably have something in the house created by a criminal. But we don't know what thing, or who it was created by. This was created by a priest in her church, and the thought of touching something he touched, with hands that touched others in horrible ways, is too much for her to handle.
She didn't spend time figuring out who it was. She just noticed some initials and a year carved into the bottom of a piece, and the information just clicked.
I think the idea of selling it on ebay, to someone who won't know what the initials on the bottom stand for is the best solution.
posted by mrgoldenbrown at 10:22 AM on December 24, 2006
The friend doesn't believe the set itself is evil, but she wants it out of the house because she is creeped out by it being there. Sure we all probably have something in the house created by a criminal. But we don't know what thing, or who it was created by. This was created by a priest in her church, and the thought of touching something he touched, with hands that touched others in horrible ways, is too much for her to handle.
She didn't spend time figuring out who it was. She just noticed some initials and a year carved into the bottom of a piece, and the information just clicked.
I think the idea of selling it on ebay, to someone who won't know what the initials on the bottom stand for is the best solution.
posted by mrgoldenbrown at 10:22 AM on December 24, 2006
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by moira at 8:09 PM on December 22, 2006