Coming out to young people
November 20, 2006 5:09 PM Subscribe
How to answer offensive questions about homosexuality...
I'm in the UK, and I am working with young people up to 18 years old. I am involved in updating my company's diversity & equality policy. I am persuaded that to be more relaxed at work - with the clients, that is - I want to come out to them. I suspect most are, in fact, already in the picture.
However...
I had a bad experience in my last workplace and want to feel a lot more confident before I proceed. I trust my colleagues to back me up a lot more than they did in the last place, but the client group is no more enlightened than before. In fact, they are the same group - disaffected, excluded, so-called 'underprivileged' - the generation that thinks 'gay' = lame, nasty and worthless.
So: how do I have ready made answers for their personal questions - eg, "you put that there? Eww?!!? Ain't that dirty?"
I'm in the UK, and I am working with young people up to 18 years old. I am involved in updating my company's diversity & equality policy. I am persuaded that to be more relaxed at work - with the clients, that is - I want to come out to them. I suspect most are, in fact, already in the picture.
However...
I had a bad experience in my last workplace and want to feel a lot more confident before I proceed. I trust my colleagues to back me up a lot more than they did in the last place, but the client group is no more enlightened than before. In fact, they are the same group - disaffected, excluded, so-called 'underprivileged' - the generation that thinks 'gay' = lame, nasty and worthless.
So: how do I have ready made answers for their personal questions - eg, "you put that there? Eww?!!? Ain't that dirty?"
Best answer: (argh, clicky too soon)
This is presuming you do some sort of career help with them. I guess the way to treat it is as a nonissue, and move right back into why you're really there talking to them.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 5:16 PM on November 20, 2006
This is presuming you do some sort of career help with them. I guess the way to treat it is as a nonissue, and move right back into why you're really there talking to them.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 5:16 PM on November 20, 2006
I guess I don't understand. Your customer base is disaffected and excluded, and you assume most will not be receptive to a proclaimed homosexual, but still you want to make it a point to tell them about it? Most people (of whatever thread) specifically don't make it a point to tell customers about any aspect of their sexual practices.
posted by megatherium at 5:20 PM on November 20, 2006
posted by megatherium at 5:20 PM on November 20, 2006
I want to come out to them
Is this really important to your job function?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:29 PM on November 20, 2006
Is this really important to your job function?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:29 PM on November 20, 2006
Question: why is it necessary (or indeed any of their business) to discuss your sexuality? "Would you like some coffee? Oh, by the way I'm gay! Milk and two sugars?"
posted by oxford blue at 5:31 PM on November 20, 2006
posted by oxford blue at 5:31 PM on November 20, 2006
Best answer: I suggest not discussing it unless asked about it directly.
posted by mrbill at 5:35 PM on November 20, 2006
posted by mrbill at 5:35 PM on November 20, 2006
Response by poster: dirtynumbangelboy writes "'Not if you wash. Speaking of which, you have a job interview tomorrow, don't you? Are your interview clothes clean and ironed?'"
dirtynumbangelboy writes "(argh, clicky too soon)
"This is presuming you do some sort of career help with them. I guess the way to treat it is as a nonissue, and move right back into why you're really there talking to them."
Good response, Thanks. I do help 'em with career stuff - good guess.
posted by dash_slot- at 5:44 PM on November 20, 2006
dirtynumbangelboy writes "(argh, clicky too soon)
"This is presuming you do some sort of career help with them. I guess the way to treat it is as a nonissue, and move right back into why you're really there talking to them."
Good response, Thanks. I do help 'em with career stuff - good guess.
posted by dash_slot- at 5:44 PM on November 20, 2006
I'm not sure you should, quite frankly. Unless it's somehow relevant to the work you're doing with them, I don't think they really want to know your sexuality either way. If it were with coworkers or the like, I could understand it, but the fact that they're significantly younger adds a certain "creepy" factor.
IMHO, though, this all goes out the window if it's relevant. For example, if you're counseling them (it's not clear exactly what you do with them?) and they're struggling with their own sexuality, it might become relevant. And if one of them asked, I don't see the harm in being honest.
I'm just not sure that coming out to them voluntarily is a great idea. They probably don't think much of your sexuality anyway, so it's not necessarily worth mentioning.
However, all that aside, I think the way to answer those questions is to try to get away from explicit sexual discussion. If a friend of mine brings up having a girlfriend, I don't begin asking if he often puts his you-know-what in her you-know-where. Try to divert away from it.
posted by fogster at 5:48 PM on November 20, 2006
IMHO, though, this all goes out the window if it's relevant. For example, if you're counseling them (it's not clear exactly what you do with them?) and they're struggling with their own sexuality, it might become relevant. And if one of them asked, I don't see the harm in being honest.
I'm just not sure that coming out to them voluntarily is a great idea. They probably don't think much of your sexuality anyway, so it's not necessarily worth mentioning.
However, all that aside, I think the way to answer those questions is to try to get away from explicit sexual discussion. If a friend of mine brings up having a girlfriend, I don't begin asking if he often puts his you-know-what in her you-know-where. Try to divert away from it.
posted by fogster at 5:48 PM on November 20, 2006
Response by poster: So: how do I have ready made answers for their personal questions - eg, "you put that there? Eww?!!? Ain't that dirty?"
Just to remind those who answered off topic what the frigging question was.
posted by dash_slot- at 5:52 PM on November 20, 2006
Just to remind those who answered off topic what the frigging question was.
posted by dash_slot- at 5:52 PM on November 20, 2006
Having had multiple people come out to me during my high school years, including one in a professional capacity, I strongly suggest avoiding this with any young person you don't already have a reasonably strong working relationship with. It made me feel sexually objectified, but at the same time guilty for feeling uncomfortable about it...not exactly the kind of situation you want to develop. If you have a steady partner, it makes more sense...you can explain your relationship dynamic in familiar terms. (The most comfortable instance I have had was with a lesbian who had adopted children.)
posted by StrikeTheViol at 5:58 PM on November 20, 2006
posted by StrikeTheViol at 5:58 PM on November 20, 2006
Best answer: If someone were to ask me a question like that (I'm a lesbian), I would just tell them that that is a very personal question and not relevant to the topic at hand. Then I would direct the conversation back to the business at hand.
However, if people ask me honest, respectful questions about being gay (without being explicit), I'm more than happy to talk a little bit about my personal experiences. IMO, it helps them see gay people as "normal" people and I do my little bit for the cause. This approach has worked for me both in my years in Texas and my years in California.
posted by kamikazegopher at 6:03 PM on November 20, 2006
However, if people ask me honest, respectful questions about being gay (without being explicit), I'm more than happy to talk a little bit about my personal experiences. IMO, it helps them see gay people as "normal" people and I do my little bit for the cause. This approach has worked for me both in my years in Texas and my years in California.
posted by kamikazegopher at 6:03 PM on November 20, 2006
As far as ready made answers go, it's a function of your personality. I know gay men who don't do anal altogether, and a (rather frightening, admittedly) gay man who regularly goes bareback at fetish bars...how much are you willing to talk about, and where do you draw the line?
posted by StrikeTheViol at 6:07 PM on November 20, 2006
posted by StrikeTheViol at 6:07 PM on November 20, 2006
I am persuaded that to be more relaxed at work - with the clients, that is - I want to come out to them.
So: how do I have ready made answers for their personal questions - eg, "you put that there? Eww?!!? Ain't that dirty?"
There is a disconnect here, on a number of levels.
1. It seems that by coming out you are setting yourself up to be in a stressful non-relaxing situation, in which you need to be armed with retorts.
2. Why do YOU need to be relaxed with the clients? Shouldn't you be trying to relax them? Confronting their stereotypes doesn't seem like the way to do that.
3. "I am persuaded" vs. "I want"... why the passive in the first instance? Is someone persuading you, or is it all you?
But, if you don't want to do what seems most appropriate - keep your gayness, and discussion of your sexual life, out of your professional client relationships - I suppose you could just be honest:
"Ew, you stick it in their butts?"
"Why yes, I do, and it's quite pleasurable."
"Doesn't it get all poopy and stinky?"
"In some cases, yes, but that is why we often have enemas and use other specialised cleaning procedures."
But again, as I write these dialogues, they come off as incredibly unprofessional. 18 year olds that are in counseling might get a pass, but their counselor / supervisor / mentor needs to be working to a higher standard. I would be worried about sexual harassment lawsuits, myself.
posted by Meatbomb at 6:25 PM on November 20, 2006
So: how do I have ready made answers for their personal questions - eg, "you put that there? Eww?!!? Ain't that dirty?"
There is a disconnect here, on a number of levels.
1. It seems that by coming out you are setting yourself up to be in a stressful non-relaxing situation, in which you need to be armed with retorts.
2. Why do YOU need to be relaxed with the clients? Shouldn't you be trying to relax them? Confronting their stereotypes doesn't seem like the way to do that.
3. "I am persuaded" vs. "I want"... why the passive in the first instance? Is someone persuading you, or is it all you?
But, if you don't want to do what seems most appropriate - keep your gayness, and discussion of your sexual life, out of your professional client relationships - I suppose you could just be honest:
"Ew, you stick it in their butts?"
"Why yes, I do, and it's quite pleasurable."
"Doesn't it get all poopy and stinky?"
"In some cases, yes, but that is why we often have enemas and use other specialised cleaning procedures."
But again, as I write these dialogues, they come off as incredibly unprofessional. 18 year olds that are in counseling might get a pass, but their counselor / supervisor / mentor needs to be working to a higher standard. I would be worried about sexual harassment lawsuits, myself.
posted by Meatbomb at 6:25 PM on November 20, 2006
And since I did answer the question, I feel kind of okay in chiming in with everyone else:
This is not a good idea. You're dealing with clients who are already feeling alienated. You're going to alienate them further. You're going to sabotage yourself--how many, realistically, will say "I ain't dealing with no nonce"?
Your sex life is none of their business. Whether you're gay or straight is immaterial. I applaud you for fighting the good fight, but there are times when it's just not appropriate. Sure, I wish it wasn't the case--but if it weren't the case, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 6:43 PM on November 20, 2006
This is not a good idea. You're dealing with clients who are already feeling alienated. You're going to alienate them further. You're going to sabotage yourself--how many, realistically, will say "I ain't dealing with no nonce"?
Your sex life is none of their business. Whether you're gay or straight is immaterial. I applaud you for fighting the good fight, but there are times when it's just not appropriate. Sure, I wish it wasn't the case--but if it weren't the case, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 6:43 PM on November 20, 2006
I was outed rather unexpectedly during a short term teaching gig. I got everything from "COOL" to "GROSS. you're going to hell!" Mostly with the accusatory questions, I answered, "That's a valid opinion but it does kind of hurt my feelings." Graphic questions: "Johnny, I'm your teacher! I'm not going to answer that!" And for the ones that back away quickly, I rolled my eyes and assured them that I was neither contagious nor recruiting. Make it clear that it's not a big deal, and they will eventually catch on.
Recognize that questions, even rude ones, are attempts to understand. One comment that comes up a lot is "I've never met a gay person that wasn't a bull dyke before. This is weird!" I actually kind of like this one, as it gives me a chance to explain that they've probably met a lot of gay people before, and that 1) they don't all act like media stereotypes and 2) they don't come out because they're afraid of getting reactions like this.
Overall, be honest but tactful. Feel free to tell them that you're not comfortable talking to them about certain things. And BEWARE THEIR PARENTS.
posted by honeydew at 6:45 PM on November 20, 2006
Recognize that questions, even rude ones, are attempts to understand. One comment that comes up a lot is "I've never met a gay person that wasn't a bull dyke before. This is weird!" I actually kind of like this one, as it gives me a chance to explain that they've probably met a lot of gay people before, and that 1) they don't all act like media stereotypes and 2) they don't come out because they're afraid of getting reactions like this.
Overall, be honest but tactful. Feel free to tell them that you're not comfortable talking to them about certain things. And BEWARE THEIR PARENTS.
posted by honeydew at 6:45 PM on November 20, 2006
Best answer: okay, I'm kind of weirded out by how many people are advising not to say anything. To me, "coming out" to a new group generally means making a reference to a same sex partner or ex-partner or crush or /etc, or being able to discuss that sort of thing without having to rearrange sentences to avoid pronouns. These sorts of topics come up all the time in conversation, and being 'out' just makes it possible to be comfortable referring to aspects of who you are. Listen to office talk with an eye toward references to personal life, and you can see that coming out is nothing to do with divulging explicit sexual content, and everything to do with being able to casually mention important elements of your life.
as for the response to weird questions about sexually explicit content, I would also deflect that kind of inquiry with a generalized statement and get back to the topic at hand - you could go into a long explanation about how some straight people "put that there" and some gay people don't, and that the kind of sex someone has is not what makes them gay, but who they want to have it with, etc, but unless that actually seems pertinent in context, I'd just try to keep things simple. It's inappropriate for them to ask about your private sexual experiences - it would be just as inapproprate if they were to ask a straight person (and for, you put your mouth on that?, i'd think the majority of the population would be culpable).
posted by mdn at 7:10 PM on November 20, 2006
as for the response to weird questions about sexually explicit content, I would also deflect that kind of inquiry with a generalized statement and get back to the topic at hand - you could go into a long explanation about how some straight people "put that there" and some gay people don't, and that the kind of sex someone has is not what makes them gay, but who they want to have it with, etc, but unless that actually seems pertinent in context, I'd just try to keep things simple. It's inappropriate for them to ask about your private sexual experiences - it would be just as inapproprate if they were to ask a straight person (and for, you put your mouth on that?, i'd think the majority of the population would be culpable).
posted by mdn at 7:10 PM on November 20, 2006
Why even tell them? I know people who I found out after a while were gay, and I really just didn't care one way or the other. Unless you're planning on sleeping with them, or they're trying to sleep with you, I can't see how it matters in the workplace.
I just think that sexuality, like many personal topics, is not a very appropriate workplace subject (for most workplaces, that is).
posted by tomble at 7:14 PM on November 20, 2006
I just think that sexuality, like many personal topics, is not a very appropriate workplace subject (for most workplaces, that is).
posted by tomble at 7:14 PM on November 20, 2006
Best answer: There's an interesting question along related lines in the current New York Times "Ethicist" column. The question there is "should I tell my muslim students that I'm an atheist?".
The answer is "tell them at the end of term" which I found interesting. The reasoning is that you should respect them, and they should respect you, enough to know, but that if you tell them at the start then prejudice might colour the way they think of you.
So, if you think it's the right thing to do, maybe the right time to do it is when your work with them is pretty much done?
So if someone actually says "are you gay or what?" the right answer is "I'm not here to answer questions about that, I'm here to help you find a job" or whatever, but you can also say "-- but when the day comes and you're leaving this institution, if you still care, drop by and ask me then".
posted by AmbroseChapel at 8:08 PM on November 20, 2006
The answer is "tell them at the end of term" which I found interesting. The reasoning is that you should respect them, and they should respect you, enough to know, but that if you tell them at the start then prejudice might colour the way they think of you.
So, if you think it's the right thing to do, maybe the right time to do it is when your work with them is pretty much done?
So if someone actually says "are you gay or what?" the right answer is "I'm not here to answer questions about that, I'm here to help you find a job" or whatever, but you can also say "-- but when the day comes and you're leaving this institution, if you still care, drop by and ask me then".
posted by AmbroseChapel at 8:08 PM on November 20, 2006
I think the issue here is, regardless of your orientation, how much of your personal lives do you and your co-workers share with your clients? If you all do so on a regular basis, then I don't know that you need to come out as some huge big announcement; just start speaking of your boyfriend as a "he," or whatever's appropriate and relevent to your life, and really only when it comes up in conversation. Not making it a big announcement will probably stave off most of the stupid comments, because "I'm gay" won't be the topic at hand.
If you're not already regularly discussing your personal lives with these kids, then maybe sticking a rainbow sticker or pink triangle or whatever symbol's appropriate on your office door to let the kids know you're willing to talk about it if they want help/info might work, and again, with that you're unlikely to feel it necessary to stay embroiled in a "I'm gay, what do you think of that?" conversation.
Basically, avoid the "I'm gay, what do you think of that?" announcement. These kids don't get a vote in your romantic life; don't set up a conversation that makes it look like you're seeking their input on it.
posted by occhiblu at 8:18 PM on November 20, 2006
If you're not already regularly discussing your personal lives with these kids, then maybe sticking a rainbow sticker or pink triangle or whatever symbol's appropriate on your office door to let the kids know you're willing to talk about it if they want help/info might work, and again, with that you're unlikely to feel it necessary to stay embroiled in a "I'm gay, what do you think of that?" conversation.
Basically, avoid the "I'm gay, what do you think of that?" announcement. These kids don't get a vote in your romantic life; don't set up a conversation that makes it look like you're seeking their input on it.
posted by occhiblu at 8:18 PM on November 20, 2006
Response by poster: Listen to office talk with an eye toward references to personal life, and you can see that coming out is nothing to do with divulging explicit sexual content, and everything to do with being able to casually mention important elements of your life.
Thanks - you get it.
I guess even on Mefi it's hard for folks to understand what coming out is about. It's a basic function in gay people, but many here don't know why we may want to be open & honest for it's own sake.
Ours is a non-standard office - the boss brings his dog in and his daughters drop in after school. We live in a liberal city, but our clients aren't so liberal.
Something in me is saying - you are researching this diversity & equality topic, and no matter how the company is run - which is to say, very compassionately - this is not a safe environment to be out, because of the client group.
I'm less persuaded now. Don't want to nail myself up there. Back to ambiguity.
posted by dash_slot- at 12:36 AM on November 21, 2006
Thanks - you get it.
I guess even on Mefi it's hard for folks to understand what coming out is about. It's a basic function in gay people, but many here don't know why we may want to be open & honest for it's own sake.
Ours is a non-standard office - the boss brings his dog in and his daughters drop in after school. We live in a liberal city, but our clients aren't so liberal.
Something in me is saying - you are researching this diversity & equality topic, and no matter how the company is run - which is to say, very compassionately - this is not a safe environment to be out, because of the client group.
I'm less persuaded now. Don't want to nail myself up there. Back to ambiguity.
posted by dash_slot- at 12:36 AM on November 21, 2006
Since (based on which questions you've marked as best answer) you appear to be dead set on telling your underprivileged teenagers about your sexual orientation, I would agree with most of the people here. Don't make it a big deal. Anything too personal, tell them that you wouldn't answer that if you were straight, and they wouldn't have asked it if you were straight, so it's inappropriate.
Having said all that, I have to say I disagree that it's necessary for you to come out to them. Having dealt with a few underprivileged teens in my day, I can see the situation arising where they refuse your help, specifically because you are gay. Moreso the males than the females, most likely, but yes, I can definitely see that happening. Do you want to have people missing out on your help just because of their own stupid biases?
posted by antifuse at 2:38 AM on November 21, 2006
Having said all that, I have to say I disagree that it's necessary for you to come out to them. Having dealt with a few underprivileged teens in my day, I can see the situation arising where they refuse your help, specifically because you are gay. Moreso the males than the females, most likely, but yes, I can definitely see that happening. Do you want to have people missing out on your help just because of their own stupid biases?
posted by antifuse at 2:38 AM on November 21, 2006
Best answer: Megatherium, Brandon Blatcher, Oxford blue, Mrbill, Fogster, StrikeTheViol, Meatbomb, Dirtynumbangelboy, Tomble, and Antifuse:
I'd like to challenge you all to make it through the rest of the workweek without "coming out" as straight. That means no wedding band, no pictures of family on your desk, no gender-specific pronouns when talking about your spouse/ (girl/boy)friend, no taking phone calls from your significant other at work, not answering truthfully when someone asks what you did last weekend, laughing along when someone makes an offensive joke about you, and on and on and on.
Get a clue, people: this question isn't about someone wanting to stand up on his desk and treat his coworkers to a description of his favorite sexual position. This is about someone not wanting to spend every minute monitoring every word that comes out of his mouth for something that might give him away.
Straight people "flaunt their sexuality" all. the. freaking. time. You enroll your spouses in your company-sponsored health plan. Your coworkers take up a collections to buy wedding/ baby shower gifts for you. You bring your spouse to the office holiday party. You get flowers at work on Valentine's Day. You leave work early to go pick up your kids.
Tell me: why is it not okay for the OP to want to do those things? He doesn't complain when you do them. Show him the same courtesy. It's not his responsibility to censor his life to make you comfortable. It's your responsibility-- as a member of a pluralistic society-- to give his life the same respect he give yours.
To the OP:
Sorry if I've derailed your post. I honestly tried to resist responding to these ridiculous comments, but when they just kept coming (!), I couldn't help myself. As to your question: I think it's best-- especially given your particular position-- for you to try to turn these comments into "teachable moments." Rather than coming back with a retort, ask them to reconsider what they've said. Something like, "Why would you ask that? How would you feel if I said something like that to you? It's okay for you to have questions, but it's not okay for you to treat someone with disrespect because they're different from you."
posted by chickletworks at 3:25 AM on November 21, 2006 [5 favorites]
I'd like to challenge you all to make it through the rest of the workweek without "coming out" as straight. That means no wedding band, no pictures of family on your desk, no gender-specific pronouns when talking about your spouse/ (girl/boy)friend, no taking phone calls from your significant other at work, not answering truthfully when someone asks what you did last weekend, laughing along when someone makes an offensive joke about you, and on and on and on.
Get a clue, people: this question isn't about someone wanting to stand up on his desk and treat his coworkers to a description of his favorite sexual position. This is about someone not wanting to spend every minute monitoring every word that comes out of his mouth for something that might give him away.
Straight people "flaunt their sexuality" all. the. freaking. time. You enroll your spouses in your company-sponsored health plan. Your coworkers take up a collections to buy wedding/ baby shower gifts for you. You bring your spouse to the office holiday party. You get flowers at work on Valentine's Day. You leave work early to go pick up your kids.
Tell me: why is it not okay for the OP to want to do those things? He doesn't complain when you do them. Show him the same courtesy. It's not his responsibility to censor his life to make you comfortable. It's your responsibility-- as a member of a pluralistic society-- to give his life the same respect he give yours.
To the OP:
Sorry if I've derailed your post. I honestly tried to resist responding to these ridiculous comments, but when they just kept coming (!), I couldn't help myself. As to your question: I think it's best-- especially given your particular position-- for you to try to turn these comments into "teachable moments." Rather than coming back with a retort, ask them to reconsider what they've said. Something like, "Why would you ask that? How would you feel if I said something like that to you? It's okay for you to have questions, but it's not okay for you to treat someone with disrespect because they're different from you."
posted by chickletworks at 3:25 AM on November 21, 2006 [5 favorites]
chickletworks writes "I'd like to challenge you all to make it through the rest of the workweek without 'coming out' as straight."
Chicklet, honey, I'm as queer as a three-dollar bill. And I keep a picture of my boyfriend on my desk at work. He's listed on my medical/dental benefits, he's the beneficiary of my life insurance (along with my niece and nephew), he comes to social functions with me. I am out and proud everywhere.
However, the difference between my life and dash_slot's is that I am not working with underprivileged youth. My sexuality cannot be a negative at my work. For dash_slot, there are very real concerns with coming out to his clients, ranging from further alienation to a general sense--wrongly, I'll grant--of creepiness and exploitation to--depending on exactly what these kids are like--a very real threat of physical violence. There are very, very good reasons for dash_slot not to come out to his clients. Chief among them is that it's none of their damn business. Sure, there are good reasons for dash_slot to come out, but in this situation I think they are vastly outweighed.
I very, very strongly suggest that in the future, you take a moment to find out who people are before you wedge your foot so very fucking firmly into your mouth.
Kindly do not make such assumptions, okay?
And an apology would be nice. Assuming that I'm 1) straight, and 2) insensitive is fucking ignorant.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 4:37 AM on November 21, 2006
Chicklet, honey, I'm as queer as a three-dollar bill. And I keep a picture of my boyfriend on my desk at work. He's listed on my medical/dental benefits, he's the beneficiary of my life insurance (along with my niece and nephew), he comes to social functions with me. I am out and proud everywhere.
However, the difference between my life and dash_slot's is that I am not working with underprivileged youth. My sexuality cannot be a negative at my work. For dash_slot, there are very real concerns with coming out to his clients, ranging from further alienation to a general sense--wrongly, I'll grant--of creepiness and exploitation to--depending on exactly what these kids are like--a very real threat of physical violence. There are very, very good reasons for dash_slot not to come out to his clients. Chief among them is that it's none of their damn business. Sure, there are good reasons for dash_slot to come out, but in this situation I think they are vastly outweighed.
I very, very strongly suggest that in the future, you take a moment to find out who people are before you wedge your foot so very fucking firmly into your mouth.
Kindly do not make such assumptions, okay?
And an apology would be nice. Assuming that I'm 1) straight, and 2) insensitive is fucking ignorant.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 4:37 AM on November 21, 2006
Response by poster: "Since (based on which questions you've marked as best answer) you appear to be dead set on telling your underprivileged teenagers about your sexual orientation..." - antifuse
Did you not read the post I made immediately before you wrote that? Where I said: "Something in me is saying - you are researching this diversity & equality topic, and no matter how the company is run - which is to say, very compassionately - this is not a safe environment to be out, because of the client group.
I'm less persuaded now. Don't want to nail myself up there. Back to ambiguity."
I want, in an ideal world, or even just a progressive one, to be able to demonstrate how ordinary and banal gay people are. I am a perfect example of that, I assure you. :)
posted by dash_slot- at 4:52 AM on November 21, 2006
Did you not read the post I made immediately before you wrote that? Where I said: "Something in me is saying - you are researching this diversity & equality topic, and no matter how the company is run - which is to say, very compassionately - this is not a safe environment to be out, because of the client group.
I'm less persuaded now. Don't want to nail myself up there. Back to ambiguity."
I want, in an ideal world, or even just a progressive one, to be able to demonstrate how ordinary and banal gay people are. I am a perfect example of that, I assure you. :)
posted by dash_slot- at 4:52 AM on November 21, 2006
dash_slot- writes "I want, in an ideal world, or even just a progressive one, to be able to demonstrate how ordinary and banal gay people are. I am a perfect example of that, I assure you. :)"
And believe me, I totally agree with and am in support of your aims. I just don't think it's the time or place, is all.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 4:54 AM on November 21, 2006
And believe me, I totally agree with and am in support of your aims. I just don't think it's the time or place, is all.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 4:54 AM on November 21, 2006
You can call them on their homophobia (and other prejudices) without coming out yourself.
posted by Carol Anne at 5:24 AM on November 21, 2006
posted by Carol Anne at 5:24 AM on November 21, 2006
Did you not read the post I made immediately before you wrote that?
Actually, no I didn't, since I'd opened the thread in a new tab when I got to work, and failed to preview when I finally got around to writing my answer. Many apologies.
And chickletworks: perhaps that comment would have been better posted to MetaTalk, yes?
posted by antifuse at 6:01 AM on November 21, 2006
Actually, no I didn't, since I'd opened the thread in a new tab when I got to work, and failed to preview when I finally got around to writing my answer. Many apologies.
And chickletworks: perhaps that comment would have been better posted to MetaTalk, yes?
posted by antifuse at 6:01 AM on November 21, 2006
The official policy of the office should definitely include a lot about respect for diversity of all kinds, and even list various kinds (religion, race, sexual orientation, etc)--there should be a clear no-tolerance policy listed--especially no harassment or bullying or derogatory statements about anyone else, etc. You should always make a clear and strong statement whenever any of the kids use racist, sexist or derogatory language towards or about others, and explain why.
Coming out personally to the kids/clients/customers is not necessary unless it's relevant. If a kid is having his or her life ruined because of incessant teasing or bashings etc because they're seen as gay or lesbian, it's definitely relevant because it'll show that you can get past it all as you did. Also be ready to act if those in authority at school etc are not treating it as a serious matter.
Our suicide rates are much higher than straight kids, so be on the lookout and be ready to refer them for help before it gets to that point.
posted by amberglow at 6:57 AM on November 21, 2006
Coming out personally to the kids/clients/customers is not necessary unless it's relevant. If a kid is having his or her life ruined because of incessant teasing or bashings etc because they're seen as gay or lesbian, it's definitely relevant because it'll show that you can get past it all as you did. Also be ready to act if those in authority at school etc are not treating it as a serious matter.
Our suicide rates are much higher than straight kids, so be on the lookout and be ready to refer them for help before it gets to that point.
posted by amberglow at 6:57 AM on November 21, 2006
I'd say just be yourself, refer to your partner when appropriate, and respond to rude questions with kamikazegopher's excellent "Sorry, that's a personal question" and a quick return to business. (My brother is gay, doesn't hide it at work but doesn't make a point of it either, and so far it's working out for him. And he works in a law-enforcement office, so it's not exactly a touchy-feely environment where everyone is cool with the gay thing.)
posted by languagehat at 7:18 AM on November 21, 2006
posted by languagehat at 7:18 AM on November 21, 2006
> Coming out personally to the kids/clients/customers is not necessary unless it's relevant.
It's anything but clear how relevant it is in this particular job situation, and that's critical. It's taken quite a bit of back-and-forth both here and in the parallel meta thread for dash_dot to make it clear that he doesn't do "teen counselling" of the sort where a lot of intimate personal revelations are unavoidable. But (we at last find out) he doesn't, so that justification for being out with young clients can't be invoked.
OTOH, a different and perfectly valid reason for having to be ready to explain over-personal things that your typical banker or systems analyst doesn't have to explain is (what appears to be the case here) if you typically work with clients who are too young and/or boorish to refrain from aggressive personal inquisition about things that are none of their business. In that sort of work situation you clearly do have to be prepared either to answer or deflect personal questions, or else get into a different kind of work.
posted by jfuller at 8:43 AM on November 21, 2006
It's anything but clear how relevant it is in this particular job situation, and that's critical. It's taken quite a bit of back-and-forth both here and in the parallel meta thread for dash_dot to make it clear that he doesn't do "teen counselling" of the sort where a lot of intimate personal revelations are unavoidable. But (we at last find out) he doesn't, so that justification for being out with young clients can't be invoked.
OTOH, a different and perfectly valid reason for having to be ready to explain over-personal things that your typical banker or systems analyst doesn't have to explain is (what appears to be the case here) if you typically work with clients who are too young and/or boorish to refrain from aggressive personal inquisition about things that are none of their business. In that sort of work situation you clearly do have to be prepared either to answer or deflect personal questions, or else get into a different kind of work.
posted by jfuller at 8:43 AM on November 21, 2006
No, no, absolutely, no.
Homophobia is the baseline among boys that age. Some of them are likely to think you are coming on to them if you come out to them, and may even make accusations to that effect. And someone somewhere who does not like the kind of thing your organization is trying to do may decide it is politically expedient to take such an accusation seriously.
Then, after a period of abject misery which could last even years, you get to try to pick up the pieces and start over in a new career, always fearful that the story may come out.
posted by jamjam at 9:06 AM on November 21, 2006
Homophobia is the baseline among boys that age. Some of them are likely to think you are coming on to them if you come out to them, and may even make accusations to that effect. And someone somewhere who does not like the kind of thing your organization is trying to do may decide it is politically expedient to take such an accusation seriously.
Then, after a period of abject misery which could last even years, you get to try to pick up the pieces and start over in a new career, always fearful that the story may come out.
posted by jamjam at 9:06 AM on November 21, 2006
Response by poster: It's taken quite a bit of back-and-forth both here and in the parallel meta thread for dash_dot to make it clear that he doesn't do "teen counselling"
I'll make it clear here that I don't do housepainting.
I don't do nursing.
I don't do policing.
I don't do ... an awful lot of things. i work with young people - that's all that you need to know. I never even implied that i was a counsellor. That was read in between the lines.
If I was a teen counsellor - in the sense that the word is used in the UK, then revealing personal information would be a breach of professional ethics, as I understand them to be.
posted by dash_slot- at 9:08 AM on November 21, 2006
I'll make it clear here that I don't do housepainting.
I don't do nursing.
I don't do policing.
I don't do ... an awful lot of things. i work with young people - that's all that you need to know. I never even implied that i was a counsellor. That was read in between the lines.
If I was a teen counsellor - in the sense that the word is used in the UK, then revealing personal information would be a breach of professional ethics, as I understand them to be.
posted by dash_slot- at 9:08 AM on November 21, 2006
Response by poster: Oops - pressy send too quick, it's catching.
"..typically work with clients who are too young and/or boorish to refrain from aggressive personal inquisition about things that are none of their business. In that sort of work situation you clearly do have to be prepared either to answer or deflect personal questions, or else get into a different kind of work."
yep, that's where I'm at.
posted by dash_slot- at 9:10 AM on November 21, 2006
"..typically work with clients who are too young and/or boorish to refrain from aggressive personal inquisition about things that are none of their business. In that sort of work situation you clearly do have to be prepared either to answer or deflect personal questions, or else get into a different kind of work."
yep, that's where I'm at.
posted by dash_slot- at 9:10 AM on November 21, 2006
Best answer: Homophobia is definitely the baseline, but it's also something that should not be acceptable in this situation, especially if this work is about mainstreaming/getting these kids to be productive adults who will have to function successfully in a wide variety of settings among a wide variety of people. It's a groundrules thing, really--in certain settings, certain things are not acceptable behavior or speech. By clearly outlining what--and why--these things are not acceptable-- whether that involves outing yourself or not--you can then start to do the job and help these kids.
I think that if one of the kids spouts out some shit, and you call him or her on it, that's enough. And if they wonder why you care, you say why. And if they catch on without having to fight you on it, all the better.
posted by amberglow at 9:25 AM on November 21, 2006
I think that if one of the kids spouts out some shit, and you call him or her on it, that's enough. And if they wonder why you care, you say why. And if they catch on without having to fight you on it, all the better.
posted by amberglow at 9:25 AM on November 21, 2006
If I were you, as kind of mentioned above, I would behave exactly as a straight person would, only homosexually. What I mean by this is, have a picture of your boyfriend out. Wear a wedding band if you've had a ceremony/consider yourself married. Use gender specific pronouns. Talk about what you did last weekend. And so on.
Then, when someone who is rude and nosy asks a rude and nosy question, answer as you would any rude and nosy question [such as, "Where do you get those awful clothes?" "Don't you ever brush your teeth?" "Why do you have so much acne?"]: "Wow, you're very rude today, would you like to reschedule your appointment for a day when you won't feel the need to insult the person assigned to help you?"
posted by starbaby at 10:50 AM on November 21, 2006
Then, when someone who is rude and nosy asks a rude and nosy question, answer as you would any rude and nosy question [such as, "Where do you get those awful clothes?" "Don't you ever brush your teeth?" "Why do you have so much acne?"]: "Wow, you're very rude today, would you like to reschedule your appointment for a day when you won't feel the need to insult the person assigned to help you?"
posted by starbaby at 10:50 AM on November 21, 2006
And an apology would be nice. Assuming that I'm 1) straight, and 2) insensitive is fucking ignorant.
Your advice was insensitive. Telling someone not to enjoy the same freedom that you grant yourself is hypocritical and condescending. As for assuming you're straight... if you quack like a duck and stand right in the middle of a big group of ducks, then it's not that unreasonable for you to get hit when duck-hunting season comes around.
Alright, I'm done. I think the issues here have been more or less straightened out (harhar) in MetaTalk, so I don't want to get into pissing contests.
posted by chickletworks at 11:17 AM on November 21, 2006
Your advice was insensitive. Telling someone not to enjoy the same freedom that you grant yourself is hypocritical and condescending. As for assuming you're straight... if you quack like a duck and stand right in the middle of a big group of ducks, then it's not that unreasonable for you to get hit when duck-hunting season comes around.
Alright, I'm done. I think the issues here have been more or less straightened out (harhar) in MetaTalk, so I don't want to get into pissing contests.
posted by chickletworks at 11:17 AM on November 21, 2006
I think it is great that you want to come out to the young people you work with -- it shows a real respect for them and for yourself, that you want them to know who you really are.
But all this business about "deflecting" the questions really miss the point: it is rude to ask certain questions about the particulars of gay sex. And they need to be told, in no uncertain terms, that it's rude. There seems to be an attitude that, if you're gay, then it's open season for specific questions about the mechanics of gay sex.
But imagine a heterosexual teacher addressing a class of young, underprivileged people. He says something about his wife. Would it be appropriate for a student to say, "Hey, how often do you 'hit that' ?" "Do you like to do doggy style with your wife?" No, it would be absolutely inappropriate, and would deserve a severe rebuke. Same with your sex life. Just because you're gay doesn't make your life an open book, nor do you have to be "respectful" and "tolerant" of their stupid, ignorant questions. The best lesson you can give them is to let them know certain topics are off limits.
posted by jayder at 5:25 PM on November 21, 2006
But all this business about "deflecting" the questions really miss the point: it is rude to ask certain questions about the particulars of gay sex. And they need to be told, in no uncertain terms, that it's rude. There seems to be an attitude that, if you're gay, then it's open season for specific questions about the mechanics of gay sex.
But imagine a heterosexual teacher addressing a class of young, underprivileged people. He says something about his wife. Would it be appropriate for a student to say, "Hey, how often do you 'hit that' ?" "Do you like to do doggy style with your wife?" No, it would be absolutely inappropriate, and would deserve a severe rebuke. Same with your sex life. Just because you're gay doesn't make your life an open book, nor do you have to be "respectful" and "tolerant" of their stupid, ignorant questions. The best lesson you can give them is to let them know certain topics are off limits.
posted by jayder at 5:25 PM on November 21, 2006
If anyone asks you a question that personal, ie "OMG, butt secks, wut?!?!11?", you're perfectly within your rights to direct the Icy Stare(tm) at them, and inform them, in whatever phrasing you prefer, that they're being incredibly gauche. Dont feel obligated to educate people with no manners. Gay people arent any more obliged to answer questions that cross the line of good taste than straight people are.
posted by supercrayon at 6:08 PM on November 21, 2006
posted by supercrayon at 6:08 PM on November 21, 2006
chickletworks writes "Your advice was insensitive. Telling someone not to enjoy the same freedom that you grant yourself is hypocritical and condescending. As for assuming you're straight... if you quack like a duck and stand right in the middle of a big group of ducks, then it's not that unreasonable for you to get hit when duck-hunting season comes around."
Sorry there, miss thing, but you completely failed to understand what I was saying.
There is a time and a place for talking about your personal life. Counselling underprivileged teens is not one of those times, gay or straight. I work in a corpoate environment where I am completely out to co-workers. With clients, it's precisely as much of their business as it would be if I were straight: none. My personal life has zero bearing on my professional relationships with both vendors and clients.
Apology, please. This time, unqualified. Take some ownership of the fact that you made blanket assumptions that were stupid and ignorant.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 9:07 PM on November 21, 2006
Sorry there, miss thing, but you completely failed to understand what I was saying.
There is a time and a place for talking about your personal life. Counselling underprivileged teens is not one of those times, gay or straight. I work in a corpoate environment where I am completely out to co-workers. With clients, it's precisely as much of their business as it would be if I were straight: none. My personal life has zero bearing on my professional relationships with both vendors and clients.
Apology, please. This time, unqualified. Take some ownership of the fact that you made blanket assumptions that were stupid and ignorant.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 9:07 PM on November 21, 2006
I'm with starbaby, jayder, supercrayon. You can be "out" and still deal with rude questions or comments. My (underprivileged gay foster) kid goes to a special school with lots of other (gay and straight underprivileged foster) kids. Some of the kids are homophobic; some are not. The teachers are all "out" as either gay or straight, but the kids get in trouble if they say rude or overly personal/sexual things to the teachers (gay or straight). The kids are often inappropriate in conversation on all sorts of topics (drugs, their own sex lives, fighting, etc.), and this particular area is no different. So however you deal with other inappropriateness (ignoring, deflecting, pushing back, etc.), this would just be one more example.
Also, FWIW, in my experience urban kids are really good as sussing out sexual orientation. So trying not to be out is actually pretty tricky.
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 1:18 AM on November 22, 2006
Also, FWIW, in my experience urban kids are really good as sussing out sexual orientation. So trying not to be out is actually pretty tricky.
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 1:18 AM on November 22, 2006
IANAH, but I've worked in foster care with a gay casework boss for three years, a gay director for 4 years, gay coworkers all 5 years, and now a gay employee for 3 months. We work with 0-21 in low-income, black and hispanic neighborhoods.
NO staff put up with crap from the teens on this any more than anything else. But to tell you the truth, we never had any problems. If people are pissed off they will call you names, but that's mostly the adults. If you're gay it'll be that. I and my Hispanic employee both get "white bitch." So you have to have a tough skin and not take shit, no matter what your demographic is.
Teens will test you on any number of levels. There needs to be an understanding of what is unacceptable, what the consequences are, and how staff will react. Whether it's homophobia, hostility, starting fights, racism, whatever.
So to answer the original question, it's all about the support of coworkers (as you said) and you should answer questions like that by firmly asking the client to be more respectful or leave. "Hey! I'm not coming at you with attitude; why are you coming at me with attitude? You're not on the basketball court and you don't talk like that. Are we clear or do you need to leave and think about it?"
posted by Marnie at 9:59 AM on November 22, 2006
NO staff put up with crap from the teens on this any more than anything else. But to tell you the truth, we never had any problems. If people are pissed off they will call you names, but that's mostly the adults. If you're gay it'll be that. I and my Hispanic employee both get "white bitch." So you have to have a tough skin and not take shit, no matter what your demographic is.
Teens will test you on any number of levels. There needs to be an understanding of what is unacceptable, what the consequences are, and how staff will react. Whether it's homophobia, hostility, starting fights, racism, whatever.
So to answer the original question, it's all about the support of coworkers (as you said) and you should answer questions like that by firmly asking the client to be more respectful or leave. "Hey! I'm not coming at you with attitude; why are you coming at me with attitude? You're not on the basketball court and you don't talk like that. Are we clear or do you need to leave and think about it?"
posted by Marnie at 9:59 AM on November 22, 2006
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 5:14 PM on November 20, 2006