Help Me Talk to The Girls Men
October 6, 2006 5:29 PM Subscribe
How can a geek/introvert establish a rapport with those soft cuddly things which possess higher fat/muscle ratio (women)?
History:
Ok, my previous questions will show you that I've had a bit of a rough time of late [1,2], but I have made a lot of +ve steps to change my life [3] to become a more pro-active, social creature that's not constantly torn by self-loathing and internal strife.
Additionally, for reasons best left unsaid the relationship went belly up (she couldn't handle me trying to improve myself) and I gave up on girl X because I realised I need to work out stuff for myself and not just jump from frying pan to fire.
Now:
I find I am actually quite AWESOME at establishing rapport, and hanging out with guys. I can approach a random guy and have a conversation with him, usually about technology, his interests, etc. The usual flow of conversation is a hello followed by some self-deprecating remarks, questions about work, and that just kinda launches it off.
Well, with the chicks this doesn't seem to work. Mostly they will talk about work and stuff but attempts to take it further get shut down pretty quick. This leads to long awkward pauses where I end up just wandering off or making bad jokes. I blame this on being in an all male-environment and having been in a relationship with one girl for so long. I just don't know what women talk about/how to talk to them!
Funnily enough I seem to find modest-to-good success with girls through more written mediums, (IM, email). Yes, I'm the poor sad geek that freezes up face-to-face. But more than that I've been told by more than one person that my personality and humour comes out much more clearly in written text.
So, (1) how/what to talk to women about and (2)How do I transition my cyber-success to meatspace? [treating it like an IM conversation face-to-face doesn't go down to well :-P]
History:
Ok, my previous questions will show you that I've had a bit of a rough time of late [1,2], but I have made a lot of +ve steps to change my life [3] to become a more pro-active, social creature that's not constantly torn by self-loathing and internal strife.
Additionally, for reasons best left unsaid the relationship went belly up (she couldn't handle me trying to improve myself) and I gave up on girl X because I realised I need to work out stuff for myself and not just jump from frying pan to fire.
Now:
I find I am actually quite AWESOME at establishing rapport, and hanging out with guys. I can approach a random guy and have a conversation with him, usually about technology, his interests, etc. The usual flow of conversation is a hello followed by some self-deprecating remarks, questions about work, and that just kinda launches it off.
Well, with the chicks this doesn't seem to work. Mostly they will talk about work and stuff but attempts to take it further get shut down pretty quick. This leads to long awkward pauses where I end up just wandering off or making bad jokes. I blame this on being in an all male-environment and having been in a relationship with one girl for so long. I just don't know what women talk about/how to talk to them!
Funnily enough I seem to find modest-to-good success with girls through more written mediums, (IM, email). Yes, I'm the poor sad geek that freezes up face-to-face. But more than that I've been told by more than one person that my personality and humour comes out much more clearly in written text.
So, (1) how/what to talk to women about and (2)How do I transition my cyber-success to meatspace? [treating it like an IM conversation face-to-face doesn't go down to well :-P]
Throw out any copy of GQ or Men's Health you might have, forget everything anyone else has ever told you about "meeting women", and just act the same way you do around guys. Many women will turn up their nose at you being who you are. Let them. Eventually, someone will come around who, instead of turning up their nose, will get a twinkle in their eye. At this point, continue to do absolutely nothing different.
Oh, and alcohol helps, too.
posted by Mr. Gunn at 5:35 PM on October 6, 2006 [3 favorites]
Oh, and alcohol helps, too.
posted by Mr. Gunn at 5:35 PM on October 6, 2006 [3 favorites]
While there all kinds of people saying you need to be yourself or some other bullshit ... you need to drop using words like "meatspace", "cyber-success" and please don't refer to women in terms of fat/muscle ratio. Use this rule: if it seems funny online it will absolutely not be offline.
Try to vary your interests, no one wants to hear a dissertation on the read/write times of various flash cards. Read the New Yorker or other topical magazines so you can converse on things. While self-deprecation can be good, it usually screams desperation in most contexts. Don't be freaked out by silences. I find in most "cold call" environments it helps to start making fun of other people in the bar (the way they dress, what they're doing) -- a certain amount of Bill Murray self-awareness impresses girls.
posted by geoff. at 5:36 PM on October 6, 2006
Try to vary your interests, no one wants to hear a dissertation on the read/write times of various flash cards. Read the New Yorker or other topical magazines so you can converse on things. While self-deprecation can be good, it usually screams desperation in most contexts. Don't be freaked out by silences. I find in most "cold call" environments it helps to start making fun of other people in the bar (the way they dress, what they're doing) -- a certain amount of Bill Murray self-awareness impresses girls.
posted by geoff. at 5:36 PM on October 6, 2006
You might find it better to go on dates rather than randomly try to pick women up. The reason for this is that a woman is more likely to commit to a date and sit it out rather than dismiss your oddities (or whatever) within seconds. In fact, that's exactly how it worked for me. I am absolutely hideous at dealing with women generally, and most think I'm rather odd, but those that get to know me like me.
So.. line up dates, whether you do it with Match.com (well worth trying), blind dates, or even speed-dating. Try to be in situations where she has to at least experience several minutes with you, rather than ephemeral experiences you'd find in a bar or on the street.
posted by wackybrit at 5:41 PM on October 6, 2006
So.. line up dates, whether you do it with Match.com (well worth trying), blind dates, or even speed-dating. Try to be in situations where she has to at least experience several minutes with you, rather than ephemeral experiences you'd find in a bar or on the street.
posted by wackybrit at 5:41 PM on October 6, 2006
Go to an art museum (alone). Look at art. At each piece try to say something about it or formulate a question that doesn't involve technobabble.
ps. "that is a big painting" is much better than "wow, 20 giga-pixels". I think you know how lame "big painting" is but it is not bad. "giga-pixels" is a real turn-off.
posted by MonkeySaltedNuts at 5:49 PM on October 6, 2006
ps. "that is a big painting" is much better than "wow, 20 giga-pixels". I think you know how lame "big painting" is but it is not bad. "giga-pixels" is a real turn-off.
posted by MonkeySaltedNuts at 5:49 PM on October 6, 2006
Go to an art museum (alone). Look at art. At each piece try to say something about it or formulate a question that doesn't involve technobabble.
this is an excellent suggestion! follow it!
to this i add: read books and have something on your mind other than shiny gadgets.
posted by amethysts at 5:56 PM on October 6, 2006
I second geoff. Don't panic at awkward silences. Since you are especially good at internet conversation, that means you probably just take longer to think of witty things to say. Keep her talking and drop something awesome every now and then.
posted by Laugh_track at 6:03 PM on October 6, 2006
posted by Laugh_track at 6:03 PM on October 6, 2006
Response by poster: hmmm, an addendum
1. The fat thing -- just being droll.
2. I seem to have given the impression all I know about is tech and gadgets. Actually I know quite a lot about other stuff (mostly science related and music) which stands me well with men -- but alas, with women it's still leads to too much staring at my feet.
3. I've also tried the Carnegie method of asking them about themselves, but in general women seem less forthright discussing stuff about work, etc.
posted by gadha at 6:16 PM on October 6, 2006
1. The fat thing -- just being droll.
2. I seem to have given the impression all I know about is tech and gadgets. Actually I know quite a lot about other stuff (mostly science related and music) which stands me well with men -- but alas, with women it's still leads to too much staring at my feet.
3. I've also tried the Carnegie method of asking them about themselves, but in general women seem less forthright discussing stuff about work, etc.
posted by gadha at 6:16 PM on October 6, 2006
I don't think gadha is going to call women "chicks" or "fat" to their faces. It's called joking.
Women like to talk about anything and everything. Ask them questions about themselves, not too many though. You don't want to come off as an interrogator. Their answers will lead to more conversation. "Oh yeah, you went to Emory? My sister lives in Atlanta. She sends me loads of peaches every summer. How did you like living in Georgia?" And so on.
Compliment their shoes/car/bracelet if you find them interesting. Don't compliment appearance right off the bat--it may send some women running, and come off as too flirty. Comment on the weather/politics/job. Ask them about their work. Comment on the place that you are in. "The coffee is great here", or "they always play the best music." Have fun. Good luck.
posted by LoriFLA at 6:22 PM on October 6, 2006 [1 favorite]
Women like to talk about anything and everything. Ask them questions about themselves, not too many though. You don't want to come off as an interrogator. Their answers will lead to more conversation. "Oh yeah, you went to Emory? My sister lives in Atlanta. She sends me loads of peaches every summer. How did you like living in Georgia?" And so on.
Compliment their shoes/car/bracelet if you find them interesting. Don't compliment appearance right off the bat--it may send some women running, and come off as too flirty. Comment on the weather/politics/job. Ask them about their work. Comment on the place that you are in. "The coffee is great here", or "they always play the best music." Have fun. Good luck.
posted by LoriFLA at 6:22 PM on October 6, 2006 [1 favorite]
Be yourself; just not all at once.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 6:24 PM on October 6, 2006 [8 favorites]
posted by ZenMasterThis at 6:24 PM on October 6, 2006 [8 favorites]
I second wackybrit's suggestion of going on dates. Most women don't want to deal with pick-ups outside of situations where they're already in evaluating-mates mode (bars, clubs, dating situations), even when they're single.
(And of course, if they're not single, they really don't want to deal with it.)
posted by joannemerriam at 6:27 PM on October 6, 2006
(And of course, if they're not single, they really don't want to deal with it.)
posted by joannemerriam at 6:27 PM on October 6, 2006
"You can start by not calling chicks "those soft cuddly things which possess higher fat/muscle ratio."
Hah! Good answer, but for many women "chick" is not much of an improvement.
The point at which the women freeze up, may be when they are sensing a subtext to the conversation. It is possible you are coming on too strong, or that they are sensing the implicit question: "would you consider dating me" and answering with an emphatic no. Even if this is not your goal, it is likely they are assuming so. If it is someone you will have other encounters with, a graceful exit before you reach this point might improve your odds for the next meeting.
If you don't mind rejection, then the most successful pickup strategy I've seen in action is simply to hit on everything that moves and count on a certain percentage, however small to pay off. Not my style so I would tend to only approach women with whom I share obvious interests, or who are already hitting on me. Pay close attention to nonverbal cues such as the hair flip, adjusting clothes, or concealed stare with quickly averted eyes on contact. Also pay attention to the cues you are projecting. Make eye contact but definitely avoid leering (unless it is premeditated). Smile and nod a lot.
In general, its hard to go wrong with active listening and drawing the other person out. As long as it doesn't come off as too calculated. Don't relate too much about yourself, unless it follows quite closely with something she said. Also, talk about the feelings and interpersonal aspects of whatever the topic is, rather than the nuts and bolts mechanics of it.
posted by Manjusri at 6:31 PM on October 6, 2006
Hah! Good answer, but for many women "chick" is not much of an improvement.
The point at which the women freeze up, may be when they are sensing a subtext to the conversation. It is possible you are coming on too strong, or that they are sensing the implicit question: "would you consider dating me" and answering with an emphatic no. Even if this is not your goal, it is likely they are assuming so. If it is someone you will have other encounters with, a graceful exit before you reach this point might improve your odds for the next meeting.
If you don't mind rejection, then the most successful pickup strategy I've seen in action is simply to hit on everything that moves and count on a certain percentage, however small to pay off. Not my style so I would tend to only approach women with whom I share obvious interests, or who are already hitting on me. Pay close attention to nonverbal cues such as the hair flip, adjusting clothes, or concealed stare with quickly averted eyes on contact. Also pay attention to the cues you are projecting. Make eye contact but definitely avoid leering (unless it is premeditated). Smile and nod a lot.
In general, its hard to go wrong with active listening and drawing the other person out. As long as it doesn't come off as too calculated. Don't relate too much about yourself, unless it follows quite closely with something she said. Also, talk about the feelings and interpersonal aspects of whatever the topic is, rather than the nuts and bolts mechanics of it.
posted by Manjusri at 6:31 PM on October 6, 2006
I second LoriFLA; women do like to talk about anything and everything. We are, after all, people. You seem to be generalizing a little, i.e. women don't like to talk about tech, science and music and women aren't forthright discussing stuff like work.
Most people of any gender like talking to well-rounded people who can carry on discussions on a variety of topics. Read magazines, go to museums. Having a little something to say on a variety of topics will get you a long way.
Also, going on actual dates is a great idea. A woman is more likely to be open (about work and other personal things) to someone on a date than to some stranger in a bar whom she might think justs wants to get in her pants.
posted by mostlymartha at 6:37 PM on October 6, 2006 [1 favorite]
Most people of any gender like talking to well-rounded people who can carry on discussions on a variety of topics. Read magazines, go to museums. Having a little something to say on a variety of topics will get you a long way.
Also, going on actual dates is a great idea. A woman is more likely to be open (about work and other personal things) to someone on a date than to some stranger in a bar whom she might think justs wants to get in her pants.
posted by mostlymartha at 6:37 PM on October 6, 2006 [1 favorite]
A lot of good advice here, and I have little to add except that geek girls often like geek guys. If her eyes glaze over when you talk about tech stuff, you may not be within reach of your target audience. This may also be why you find IMs and emails more successful - your audience is already comfortable with your topics and sense of humor. Perhaps send out feelers for a fellow geek?
posted by vers at 6:47 PM on October 6, 2006
posted by vers at 6:47 PM on October 6, 2006
These guys you get along with so well - do they have female friends? Maybe they could introduce you to some women at a non-romantic event (book club meeting, hike, etc) and you could talk to them casually without the pressure of being on a date. I think that people who aren't innately Mr. or Ms. Smooth tend to feel tense and awkward on a date because of all the expectations they have, and the ones they assume the other person has.
If you're in a group where you already get along fine with the guys, it might be easier to interact with the gals - when conversations are already humming along nicely, it's easy to join in or invite others to join. Plus, the event itself provides a ready topic of conversation ("What did you think of the book?" "Have you ever seen such beautiful autumn colors?"). And having a wide range of interests at the tip of your tongue, not just tech-geek arcana, is important too, as others have said. Good luck!
posted by Quietgal at 7:05 PM on October 6, 2006
If you're in a group where you already get along fine with the guys, it might be easier to interact with the gals - when conversations are already humming along nicely, it's easy to join in or invite others to join. Plus, the event itself provides a ready topic of conversation ("What did you think of the book?" "Have you ever seen such beautiful autumn colors?"). And having a wide range of interests at the tip of your tongue, not just tech-geek arcana, is important too, as others have said. Good luck!
posted by Quietgal at 7:05 PM on October 6, 2006
being able to dumb down your tech stuff can help though. i know my current geek-man is amazingly articulate in his descriptions of his work. i'm not a computer scientist, but i do understand why he likes what he's doing. he also humours me in my rants about history/linguistitcs/library science.
i totally agee with LoriFLA and mostlymartha in that women like well rounded, or seemingly well rounded. acting like you can't even be well rounded around members of the opposite sex would be very off putting. no doubt it's from you being intimidated by possible outcomes, but really, don't act like women won't understand/be interested in your geeky tech talk. they won't be if it's at all condescending, hopefully you're not like that.
posted by kendrak at 7:07 PM on October 6, 2006
i totally agee with LoriFLA and mostlymartha in that women like well rounded, or seemingly well rounded. acting like you can't even be well rounded around members of the opposite sex would be very off putting. no doubt it's from you being intimidated by possible outcomes, but really, don't act like women won't understand/be interested in your geeky tech talk. they won't be if it's at all condescending, hopefully you're not like that.
posted by kendrak at 7:07 PM on October 6, 2006
Great question. My 1.5 cents...
1. "Cyber-success to meatspace." Ban this kind of language from your online and offline lives right f'ing now. You're not 12 years old. (Or are you?)
2. Turn off the computer. Seriously. Get out of the house. Go do something.
3. See #2. Find a hobby that uses larger muscle groups (other than finngers/brain). Take tennis lessons. Join a book club. Go to a record store. Anything. Just be somewhere, doing something, where there are other people. It works every time.
posted by turducken at 7:22 PM on October 6, 2006
1. "Cyber-success to meatspace." Ban this kind of language from your online and offline lives right f'ing now. You're not 12 years old. (Or are you?)
2. Turn off the computer. Seriously. Get out of the house. Go do something.
3. See #2. Find a hobby that uses larger muscle groups (other than finngers/brain). Take tennis lessons. Join a book club. Go to a record store. Anything. Just be somewhere, doing something, where there are other people. It works every time.
posted by turducken at 7:22 PM on October 6, 2006
Borrow a dog (if you don't have one) and go to the park. Remember for all their differences, men and women are both humans and some of their goals intersect.
posted by Kensational at 7:31 PM on October 6, 2006
posted by Kensational at 7:31 PM on October 6, 2006
Disclaimer: generalizations about men and women below. Not all people fall into the following categories:
Both women and men are interested in all sorts of things, and often the same sorts of things, but -- more often than men -- women tend to see things through a human-relationships trend.
As a guy, I can spend hours waxing poetically about the Mars Rover, European History, Jazz, Microsoft, Stanley Kubrick movies and neural networks without ever mentioning another human being. Conversing with a woman, I'd be better off talking about how happy they are at NASA about the Rover, Napoleon and Josephine, Miles David, Bill Gates, etc.
I'm not claiming that women don't care about "serious issues." They do just as much as men do -- they just frame these issues in a different way.
Naturally, the closer the humans are to the woman you're talking to, the better. Know some dirt about her boss? Great. But Bill and Hillary will work, too, as will MacBeth and Lady MacBeth. When you talk about movies or novels, make sure you spend as much time talking about characters as you do about writing style and camera angles.
If you get in the habit of doing this, you'll not only have better success with women, you'll become a better man. I'm fascinated with relationships, but I'm not as good at understanding them as my women friends. I've learned so much from women about people. Women tend to pick up on subtle social cues that many men miss. Women have helped me -- a major introvert -- become much more of a people person than I ever thought possible.
posted by grumblebee at 7:35 PM on October 6, 2006 [5 favorites]
Both women and men are interested in all sorts of things, and often the same sorts of things, but -- more often than men -- women tend to see things through a human-relationships trend.
As a guy, I can spend hours waxing poetically about the Mars Rover, European History, Jazz, Microsoft, Stanley Kubrick movies and neural networks without ever mentioning another human being. Conversing with a woman, I'd be better off talking about how happy they are at NASA about the Rover, Napoleon and Josephine, Miles David, Bill Gates, etc.
I'm not claiming that women don't care about "serious issues." They do just as much as men do -- they just frame these issues in a different way.
Naturally, the closer the humans are to the woman you're talking to, the better. Know some dirt about her boss? Great. But Bill and Hillary will work, too, as will MacBeth and Lady MacBeth. When you talk about movies or novels, make sure you spend as much time talking about characters as you do about writing style and camera angles.
If you get in the habit of doing this, you'll not only have better success with women, you'll become a better man. I'm fascinated with relationships, but I'm not as good at understanding them as my women friends. I've learned so much from women about people. Women tend to pick up on subtle social cues that many men miss. Women have helped me -- a major introvert -- become much more of a people person than I ever thought possible.
posted by grumblebee at 7:35 PM on October 6, 2006 [5 favorites]
"Be yourself; just not all at once."
posted by ZenMasterThis at 9:24 PM EST on October 6
As often happens in relationship threads here, the shortest answer may be the best. So let me take off on ZenMasterThis' little koan, here, with a riff of my own.
See, I think, from the language of your posts, and the analytical nature of your questions, that you're trying way too hard to invest yourself in a role you've chosen. You see yourself as a geek/nerd/comp sci guy, and you act like one, because you know how they act. You see 'em all around you, every day, and you share their interests, and you're naturally kind of introverted anyway, and not broadly experienced in relationships, or widely traveled in the larger world.
So, it's easy for you to Act. Like. One.
Problem is, acts, in real life, are off-putting to many. There's a thinness about acting one's life that comes off false to many, or at least odd enough to make people a bit reserved about offering themselves up for exchanges with you. Nerd/Geek/Comp Sci Guy may be the life role in which you feel most complete, but maintaining it and projecting it, to cover what you may feel to be greater vunerabilities, also creates greater problems in relating to others. It's not that they might not like you as a geek, but they have a hard time getting a handle on you initially, if the role you are playing is at all forced and stereotypical. And unfortunately, if people form a poor first impression of you, in the first 30 seconds to 1 minute after they meet you, you may find it impossible to get them to give you addtional chances.
So, you can either change the first impressions you are creating, or you can resign yourself to muddling through many, many of them, until you find women who are willing to wait for the gallant you truly are underneath to appear, and greet him with the beautific acceptance for which you so deeply hope.
The first strategy requires new learning and new insight on your part, the second, a willingness to suffer considerable serial rejection, and a steady supply of new women you can meet, as it is mainly a numbers game. In short, you can date smart, or date hard, to get the relationship you want.
Let's take up my first theory, that you could do things to create a better first impression. How would you best do that? Dress and grooming are things you can get good advice about all over the place, so I won't take up space here. Other posters upthread have suggested that you work on your reading, and broaden your interests so as to be able to talk comfortably on a range of topics, and that's not a bad suggestion. Still others have advised you to be more natural, and that is kind of what I'm advising too, but with a twist. I'm going to suggest that you try to find some activity that is challenging to you, in an area in which you do not have natural ability or particular talent, and which is also of interest to women, and start doing it, as a means of meeting women, when you are too busy mentally to be anybody else, but yourself, warts and all.
Now, this could be skiing, or roller-blading, or quilting, or professional dog walking, or ballroom dancing. Ideally, it should be something you can afford to do, and local, with some turn over of persons, but what it is will depend upon you. As long as doing it is slightly challenging, and you need pretend no talent or skill in trying it, it will do. If the activity is just enough to keep you mentally busy, such that you don't have extra cycles to automatically fall into your Nerd Guy role, you will "automagically" be more yourself, and therefore more approachable. You won't be hard to talk to, and you won't have so much trouble talking to others.
So, that's one suggestion. The other is to view life as the numbers game so many do, and recognize that if you badly date 100 women, you may find 2 or 3 with whom you share some kind of personal connection that is natural, and worth pursuing beyond the first awkwardness. If you are willing to have 97 uncomfortable first dates, and perhaps another 45 somewhat awkward second dates, and perhaps 20 disappointing third dates, to get 2 or 3 reasonably interesting and fun fourth dates, join any dating site, and start posting profiles, and keep being Nerd Guy. 'Cause that has worked OK for some of the happiest married couples I know. If you can stand the rejection, and remain determined, you don't have to ever be scintillating to be successful in the mating game.
posted by paulsc at 7:53 PM on October 6, 2006 [2 favorites]
posted by ZenMasterThis at 9:24 PM EST on October 6
As often happens in relationship threads here, the shortest answer may be the best. So let me take off on ZenMasterThis' little koan, here, with a riff of my own.
See, I think, from the language of your posts, and the analytical nature of your questions, that you're trying way too hard to invest yourself in a role you've chosen. You see yourself as a geek/nerd/comp sci guy, and you act like one, because you know how they act. You see 'em all around you, every day, and you share their interests, and you're naturally kind of introverted anyway, and not broadly experienced in relationships, or widely traveled in the larger world.
So, it's easy for you to Act. Like. One.
Problem is, acts, in real life, are off-putting to many. There's a thinness about acting one's life that comes off false to many, or at least odd enough to make people a bit reserved about offering themselves up for exchanges with you. Nerd/Geek/Comp Sci Guy may be the life role in which you feel most complete, but maintaining it and projecting it, to cover what you may feel to be greater vunerabilities, also creates greater problems in relating to others. It's not that they might not like you as a geek, but they have a hard time getting a handle on you initially, if the role you are playing is at all forced and stereotypical. And unfortunately, if people form a poor first impression of you, in the first 30 seconds to 1 minute after they meet you, you may find it impossible to get them to give you addtional chances.
So, you can either change the first impressions you are creating, or you can resign yourself to muddling through many, many of them, until you find women who are willing to wait for the gallant you truly are underneath to appear, and greet him with the beautific acceptance for which you so deeply hope.
The first strategy requires new learning and new insight on your part, the second, a willingness to suffer considerable serial rejection, and a steady supply of new women you can meet, as it is mainly a numbers game. In short, you can date smart, or date hard, to get the relationship you want.
Let's take up my first theory, that you could do things to create a better first impression. How would you best do that? Dress and grooming are things you can get good advice about all over the place, so I won't take up space here. Other posters upthread have suggested that you work on your reading, and broaden your interests so as to be able to talk comfortably on a range of topics, and that's not a bad suggestion. Still others have advised you to be more natural, and that is kind of what I'm advising too, but with a twist. I'm going to suggest that you try to find some activity that is challenging to you, in an area in which you do not have natural ability or particular talent, and which is also of interest to women, and start doing it, as a means of meeting women, when you are too busy mentally to be anybody else, but yourself, warts and all.
Now, this could be skiing, or roller-blading, or quilting, or professional dog walking, or ballroom dancing. Ideally, it should be something you can afford to do, and local, with some turn over of persons, but what it is will depend upon you. As long as doing it is slightly challenging, and you need pretend no talent or skill in trying it, it will do. If the activity is just enough to keep you mentally busy, such that you don't have extra cycles to automatically fall into your Nerd Guy role, you will "automagically" be more yourself, and therefore more approachable. You won't be hard to talk to, and you won't have so much trouble talking to others.
So, that's one suggestion. The other is to view life as the numbers game so many do, and recognize that if you badly date 100 women, you may find 2 or 3 with whom you share some kind of personal connection that is natural, and worth pursuing beyond the first awkwardness. If you are willing to have 97 uncomfortable first dates, and perhaps another 45 somewhat awkward second dates, and perhaps 20 disappointing third dates, to get 2 or 3 reasonably interesting and fun fourth dates, join any dating site, and start posting profiles, and keep being Nerd Guy. 'Cause that has worked OK for some of the happiest married couples I know. If you can stand the rejection, and remain determined, you don't have to ever be scintillating to be successful in the mating game.
posted by paulsc at 7:53 PM on October 6, 2006 [2 favorites]
Get a taxi driving licence.
posted by flabdablet at 7:55 PM on October 6, 2006
posted by flabdablet at 7:55 PM on October 6, 2006
I am going to second Vers response above - if the topics you truly enjoy are science, gadgets, and music, I guarantee that there are females who enjoy discussing the same topics. Why give that up and why don't you try to find those females?
You mention in another post that you are a graduate student. Surely there are physics, chemistry, biology, and engineering departments there. Attend some of the talks/or departmental graduate events and you will find people who love discussing science.
Another idea - are there any science museums located nearby? Can you volunteer a few days a week there? I guarantee you will meet females who also volunteer or go to the museum, well, because they love the subject.
Or if music is your true passion hang out frequently at a place where they play live music. Join a band. Find and seek out people who enjoy your same interests - I guarantee your approach will work, you just need to find the right group.
posted by Wolfster at 7:55 PM on October 6, 2006
You mention in another post that you are a graduate student. Surely there are physics, chemistry, biology, and engineering departments there. Attend some of the talks/or departmental graduate events and you will find people who love discussing science.
Another idea - are there any science museums located nearby? Can you volunteer a few days a week there? I guarantee you will meet females who also volunteer or go to the museum, well, because they love the subject.
Or if music is your true passion hang out frequently at a place where they play live music. Join a band. Find and seek out people who enjoy your same interests - I guarantee your approach will work, you just need to find the right group.
posted by Wolfster at 7:55 PM on October 6, 2006
grumblebee: you're still talking about "women" in the generic plural. Not all women may be highly socially oriented; some women, surprise, also enjoy talking about issues in the abstract.
posted by bad grammar at 7:57 PM on October 6, 2006
posted by bad grammar at 7:57 PM on October 6, 2006
Women get hit on a lot more often than men, and if they're not in the mood to be hit on -- which they usually aren't -- it can be really annoying. Maybe that's why you're being shut down? If you could try to be low key and get to know them with the same friendliness you'd use with a man, that might help.
posted by croutonsupafreak at 8:38 PM on October 6, 2006
posted by croutonsupafreak at 8:38 PM on October 6, 2006
I am a "soft cuddly thing with a higher fat/muscle ratio" (haha) with a guy pretty similar to you. Geeky introvert, is very quiet around people. I too am very geeky but I'm more extroverted than he is.
Amazingly, he's the one that made the first moves. And I'm glad he did.
Here's what worked for the both of us:
a) Being ourselves. We're both comfortable with being geeky towards each other (we're both Web geeks, though he enjoys coding and I like the more communciations, Web meme-y stuff). Even when one of us doesn't quite understand what the other is talking about, we make an effort to listen.
b) Talking to each other - he liked me because he found me interesting to talk to. We have really good conversations about ANYTHING. So just chat. Doesn't have to be really heavy stuff, just simple things - our relationship started off with conversations about family and travel (we've both been on exchange programs). Get to know each other.
c) Patience and compassion. My man, despite his geeky introvert self, has a gift for motivational speaking and counselling. Whenever I'm in a rut he's always able to calm me down, listen to me, take in whatever frustration I have, help me let it go. It's the same in reverse - he knows he can count on me for help, that I won't judge him (he stutters, which made it difficult for him growing up, and he values people that don't judge him for that), that I'll be there for him.
d) Not really expecting to "Get the girl". My man did make the first moves - ask for a photo, danced, held me. (long story!) But he didn't think "aha! I shall try to get this girl into my arms and have her swoon for me by the end of the night!" It was just something that felt right to him (instinct, he called it). As he's my first boyfriend, he understands when I'm still processing something and doesn't let things get too far from where we're ready. He didn't have ulterior motives. He just liked me. And for him, it paid off ;)
So basically, be you - not You the Geek, but just You. Care for other people. Be genuine. And try not to go into it thinking the girl's a reward or a prize. We're all human. Just go into it as one human making a connection with another (even if just as friends or acquaintances) and see where it leads you.
Good luck!
posted by divabat at 8:44 PM on October 6, 2006 [1 favorite]
Amazingly, he's the one that made the first moves. And I'm glad he did.
Here's what worked for the both of us:
a) Being ourselves. We're both comfortable with being geeky towards each other (we're both Web geeks, though he enjoys coding and I like the more communciations, Web meme-y stuff). Even when one of us doesn't quite understand what the other is talking about, we make an effort to listen.
b) Talking to each other - he liked me because he found me interesting to talk to. We have really good conversations about ANYTHING. So just chat. Doesn't have to be really heavy stuff, just simple things - our relationship started off with conversations about family and travel (we've both been on exchange programs). Get to know each other.
c) Patience and compassion. My man, despite his geeky introvert self, has a gift for motivational speaking and counselling. Whenever I'm in a rut he's always able to calm me down, listen to me, take in whatever frustration I have, help me let it go. It's the same in reverse - he knows he can count on me for help, that I won't judge him (he stutters, which made it difficult for him growing up, and he values people that don't judge him for that), that I'll be there for him.
d) Not really expecting to "Get the girl". My man did make the first moves - ask for a photo, danced, held me. (long story!) But he didn't think "aha! I shall try to get this girl into my arms and have her swoon for me by the end of the night!" It was just something that felt right to him (instinct, he called it). As he's my first boyfriend, he understands when I'm still processing something and doesn't let things get too far from where we're ready. He didn't have ulterior motives. He just liked me. And for him, it paid off ;)
So basically, be you - not You the Geek, but just You. Care for other people. Be genuine. And try not to go into it thinking the girl's a reward or a prize. We're all human. Just go into it as one human making a connection with another (even if just as friends or acquaintances) and see where it leads you.
Good luck!
posted by divabat at 8:44 PM on October 6, 2006 [1 favorite]
Here is how to get women to like you:
This is the most important; you need to get to the point where you like talking to women. Where you really enjoy the chit and the chat and the flirting is an end to itself and not a means to a any goal. This isn't too hard, because flirting with womenisn't a chore it is fun. It is fun because men and women need to like each other and maybe love each other for there to be men and women. If you aren't enjoying it realise because of anxiety or unfamiliarity that's cool too. Just pretend you enjoy it and eventually you will enjoy it.
This is less important but still pretty important; the stakes are really fucking low on the lose side in these kinds of interactions. If you get to the place where you enjoy talking to women you are interested in what you have to lose are the seconds where you think "oh well" that is it. Intellectually you know that you have damn little to lose but habbit makes it difficult to behave as if that is true. You know that your aversion is irational so stumble through it. Chock up some failures just to see how inocuous it is.
Your desire is nothing to be ashamed of. This is another one that most guys know but don't behave as though they know. Women don't want to be lonely either. Women like to know that men think that they are pretty. Even if a girl doesn't like you she will still in the vast majority of cases like knowing that you like her and what you like about her.
You need to take the risks. Yes girls can make the first move but they seldom do because making the first move is hard. You feel that it is hard. What makes it easy is practice and most girls don't practice this because they aren't expected to. As hard as it is for a man to make the first move it tends to be harder for a girl to make the first move because it isn't expected in the rules of engagement. A girl making the first move would entail all the discomfort you feel plus the discomfort of altering the rules that have been layed down. Plenty of girls are up to it, dont get me wrong, but most aren't most of the time and there is nothing wrong with that.
The very fact that you take a risk with talking to a women with honesty about your desires will make you more attractive in her eyes.
You do come off in this question as a big nerd. That is fine. Seriously. Girls are less interested in this stuff than guys but it isn't a deal breaker or anything. There is one problem that 90% of guys have with finding women to love and be loved by. That is the failure to recognize the actual stakes. You don't need to alter your priorities. You don't need to love art. You don't need to dress differently or not use dorky expressions. You need to take your licks and realize that there is a point where licks are fun to take and once you get there it is easy to get what you want.
posted by I Foody at 9:12 PM on October 6, 2006
This is the most important; you need to get to the point where you like talking to women. Where you really enjoy the chit and the chat and the flirting is an end to itself and not a means to a any goal. This isn't too hard, because flirting with womenisn't a chore it is fun. It is fun because men and women need to like each other and maybe love each other for there to be men and women. If you aren't enjoying it realise because of anxiety or unfamiliarity that's cool too. Just pretend you enjoy it and eventually you will enjoy it.
This is less important but still pretty important; the stakes are really fucking low on the lose side in these kinds of interactions. If you get to the place where you enjoy talking to women you are interested in what you have to lose are the seconds where you think "oh well" that is it. Intellectually you know that you have damn little to lose but habbit makes it difficult to behave as if that is true. You know that your aversion is irational so stumble through it. Chock up some failures just to see how inocuous it is.
Your desire is nothing to be ashamed of. This is another one that most guys know but don't behave as though they know. Women don't want to be lonely either. Women like to know that men think that they are pretty. Even if a girl doesn't like you she will still in the vast majority of cases like knowing that you like her and what you like about her.
You need to take the risks. Yes girls can make the first move but they seldom do because making the first move is hard. You feel that it is hard. What makes it easy is practice and most girls don't practice this because they aren't expected to. As hard as it is for a man to make the first move it tends to be harder for a girl to make the first move because it isn't expected in the rules of engagement. A girl making the first move would entail all the discomfort you feel plus the discomfort of altering the rules that have been layed down. Plenty of girls are up to it, dont get me wrong, but most aren't most of the time and there is nothing wrong with that.
The very fact that you take a risk with talking to a women with honesty about your desires will make you more attractive in her eyes.
You do come off in this question as a big nerd. That is fine. Seriously. Girls are less interested in this stuff than guys but it isn't a deal breaker or anything. There is one problem that 90% of guys have with finding women to love and be loved by. That is the failure to recognize the actual stakes. You don't need to alter your priorities. You don't need to love art. You don't need to dress differently or not use dorky expressions. You need to take your licks and realize that there is a point where licks are fun to take and once you get there it is easy to get what you want.
posted by I Foody at 9:12 PM on October 6, 2006
Okay, last night, for the first time I ever, I got a girl's phone number. It was pretty ridiculous; I'm 25. That's a milestone that should have passed a long time ago.
What makes it all the more ridiculous is that it was absolutely simple. I was attending a grad studies mixer at my school, and I saw a couple of girls talking. So I went up and asked one if she was in my program (because she looked familiar). I ended up talking to them for quite a while and got the one's phone number, and we're going to try to get together next week. I didn't say anything particularly clever or anything; when they said that they were not in my program, I asked what program they were in, and how they liked it, and what classes they were taking, and we went from there.
In the end, these women? They're people. The hardest part for me was getting over my own lack of confidence and whatnot.
posted by synecdoche at 9:24 PM on October 6, 2006
What makes it all the more ridiculous is that it was absolutely simple. I was attending a grad studies mixer at my school, and I saw a couple of girls talking. So I went up and asked one if she was in my program (because she looked familiar). I ended up talking to them for quite a while and got the one's phone number, and we're going to try to get together next week. I didn't say anything particularly clever or anything; when they said that they were not in my program, I asked what program they were in, and how they liked it, and what classes they were taking, and we went from there.
In the end, these women? They're people. The hardest part for me was getting over my own lack of confidence and whatnot.
posted by synecdoche at 9:24 PM on October 6, 2006
You really want to try something? Sign up for eharmony.com. I haven't used them myself, but it seems that whenever someone I know in real life mentions they met their mate through an online service, that is the one.
posted by Doohickie at 10:31 PM on October 6, 2006
posted by Doohickie at 10:31 PM on October 6, 2006
Here's a piece of info that may be of use to you: My success with women (from a numbers standpoint) has always been mild. They don't, as a general rule flirt w/me or try to pick me up.
But then one day, I met a girl and we got married.
This is the point at which women started coming out of the woodwork. Flirting w/me, trying to pick me up, sereptitiously slipping me their phone numbers.
So, I asked my mom what she thought about that (asking the wife would have been suicidal). And she said that once you're hooked, you no longer give off the "desperately in search of a mate vibe". In short, I was more relaxed and more myself because I couldn't care less about impressing these women, which in turn, did impress them.
The upshot is this: you have to believe (not pretend) that whether or not this girl or that girl likes you simply does not matter. If they like you - great - keep talking. If they don't - who cares? - move on. But you have to believe it deep down, because if you pretend, you'll just end up acting like a dick.
Do not pretend to be anything but what you are, because if you do, you'll be stuck pretending for the remainder of the relationship. So just be who you are and realize that the worst thing a women can do is say no. And really, how awful is that?
No.
No.
No.
See, that wasn't so bad.
posted by jaded at 5:26 AM on October 7, 2006
But then one day, I met a girl and we got married.
This is the point at which women started coming out of the woodwork. Flirting w/me, trying to pick me up, sereptitiously slipping me their phone numbers.
So, I asked my mom what she thought about that (asking the wife would have been suicidal). And she said that once you're hooked, you no longer give off the "desperately in search of a mate vibe". In short, I was more relaxed and more myself because I couldn't care less about impressing these women, which in turn, did impress them.
The upshot is this: you have to believe (not pretend) that whether or not this girl or that girl likes you simply does not matter. If they like you - great - keep talking. If they don't - who cares? - move on. But you have to believe it deep down, because if you pretend, you'll just end up acting like a dick.
Do not pretend to be anything but what you are, because if you do, you'll be stuck pretending for the remainder of the relationship. So just be who you are and realize that the worst thing a women can do is say no. And really, how awful is that?
No.
No.
No.
See, that wasn't so bad.
posted by jaded at 5:26 AM on October 7, 2006
grumblebee: you're still talking about "women" in the generic plural. Not all women may be highly socially oriented; some women, surprise, also enjoy talking about issues in the abstract.
It's not a surprise to me, which is why, at the very top of my post, I said, "Disclaimer: generalizations about men and women below. Not all people fall into the following categories."
MANY women that I have met are socially oriented, and when I understood that -- and learned to frame "topics" in that way -- I was more successful with women. I don't just assume women will be that way. One of the tricks of good conversation is learning not to pre-judge people, and to try to meet each person on his/her own level.
I reccommend this book: You Just Don't Understand: Women and Men in Conversation by Deborah Tannen.
posted by grumblebee at 6:41 AM on October 7, 2006
It's not a surprise to me, which is why, at the very top of my post, I said, "Disclaimer: generalizations about men and women below. Not all people fall into the following categories."
MANY women that I have met are socially oriented, and when I understood that -- and learned to frame "topics" in that way -- I was more successful with women. I don't just assume women will be that way. One of the tricks of good conversation is learning not to pre-judge people, and to try to meet each person on his/her own level.
I reccommend this book: You Just Don't Understand: Women and Men in Conversation by Deborah Tannen.
posted by grumblebee at 6:41 AM on October 7, 2006
I don't think gadha is going to call women "chicks" or "fat" to their faces. It's called joking.
it's not the joking part, it's the generalizing part, I think... I'm female and was annoyed enough by the presentation not to come into the thread to start with. It's the idea that women are these alien creatures that are all soft and cuddly that is disconcerting - we're not alien, and we're not defined by causal properties that produce pleasure in men. Women are just more people.
of course, it seems some women like being pursued and "treated like a woman" and all that crap, so I'm just speaking for a particular contingent of us, who you prob aren't interested in nailing anyway... still, I'll post this to remind you that there are people who think like you and other people who don't, and a lot of people are going to be turned off if they get the sense you're only thinking in terms of "talking to a girl" when you talk to them. That is not to say that you should somehow not be aware of their gender, but just that that is not the only characteristic on your mind - talk to the whole person, not just the boobs, so to speak. Enjoy the conversation even if it is not going to end up in bed.
posted by mdn at 6:51 AM on October 7, 2006
it's not the joking part, it's the generalizing part, I think... I'm female and was annoyed enough by the presentation not to come into the thread to start with. It's the idea that women are these alien creatures that are all soft and cuddly that is disconcerting - we're not alien, and we're not defined by causal properties that produce pleasure in men. Women are just more people.
of course, it seems some women like being pursued and "treated like a woman" and all that crap, so I'm just speaking for a particular contingent of us, who you prob aren't interested in nailing anyway... still, I'll post this to remind you that there are people who think like you and other people who don't, and a lot of people are going to be turned off if they get the sense you're only thinking in terms of "talking to a girl" when you talk to them. That is not to say that you should somehow not be aware of their gender, but just that that is not the only characteristic on your mind - talk to the whole person, not just the boobs, so to speak. Enjoy the conversation even if it is not going to end up in bed.
posted by mdn at 6:51 AM on October 7, 2006
Talk with women like you'd talk with a man. That is the best advice given here so far.
Eliminate your geek-speak. Keep it if you want to find a woman who would find it charming, but recognize this is not the majority of women. Try sci-fi, computer, and anime/roleplaying clubs to make it more likely you'll find a lady who will find it charming.
I used to be terrible at talking and flirting with women (and I'm female!). I wasn't interested in shopping! I wasn't interested in talking about feelings! And in grade school all the other girls ostracized me because I liked to read! Clearly, I was doomed from the start. I would clam up, be rejected, and never find a girlfriend, ever.
But y'know what? That's all bullshit. One day I just went for it and posted an online profile. I was honest and open and tried to be funny, and I got replies. And with that slight confidence-booster under my belt, I found myself more able to go up and just talk to a lady. And what do you know, the first time I did it--and I picked a lady I was sure would be far too attractive for me and probably not even interested in women--I got a phone number.
Dude, relax. If you get yourself wrapped up in how badly you will fail, you will. Stop telling yourself you have no idea how to relate to "those creatures", and simply talk to them.
posted by Anonymous at 7:40 AM on October 7, 2006
Eliminate your geek-speak. Keep it if you want to find a woman who would find it charming, but recognize this is not the majority of women. Try sci-fi, computer, and anime/roleplaying clubs to make it more likely you'll find a lady who will find it charming.
I used to be terrible at talking and flirting with women (and I'm female!). I wasn't interested in shopping! I wasn't interested in talking about feelings! And in grade school all the other girls ostracized me because I liked to read! Clearly, I was doomed from the start. I would clam up, be rejected, and never find a girlfriend, ever.
But y'know what? That's all bullshit. One day I just went for it and posted an online profile. I was honest and open and tried to be funny, and I got replies. And with that slight confidence-booster under my belt, I found myself more able to go up and just talk to a lady. And what do you know, the first time I did it--and I picked a lady I was sure would be far too attractive for me and probably not even interested in women--I got a phone number.
Dude, relax. If you get yourself wrapped up in how badly you will fail, you will. Stop telling yourself you have no idea how to relate to "those creatures", and simply talk to them.
posted by Anonymous at 7:40 AM on October 7, 2006
How do I transition my cyber-success to meatspace?
Stop looking for free relationship therapy from random strangers on teh internets. Join a writing group. GO on some art tours. Do some amateur drama. Volunteer for some communal work in a charity. Connect with people, not with bits.
posted by meehawl at 7:55 AM on October 7, 2006
Stop looking for free relationship therapy from random strangers on teh internets. Join a writing group. GO on some art tours. Do some amateur drama. Volunteer for some communal work in a charity. Connect with people, not with bits.
posted by meehawl at 7:55 AM on October 7, 2006
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posted by greasy_skillet at 5:33 PM on October 6, 2006 [11 favorites]