Spouse loves Christmas. I hate it.
December 24, 2024 11:42 AM Subscribe
26th year of marriage. 26th Christmas fight. Can the cycle be broken?
While I dislike Christmas in general, I hate my wife’s observance of it - which consists of even more compulsive consumerism than she exhibits the rest of the year. The sending and the opening of gift after gift that no one asked for or wants just sickens me.
So every year, like clockwork, I passively aggressively do little or nothing to “celebrate” the day with her, then she launches into a monologue about how I’m too selfish to take her feelings into consideration.
To be clear, she is not demanding that I spend a lot of money on her. But gift-giving is part of her “love language” and - partly for childhood reasons of which she is aware but out of sympathy with - I can/will not speak it.
I’m very tired of this cycle. She’s a wonderful woman and she deserves better.
While I dislike Christmas in general, I hate my wife’s observance of it - which consists of even more compulsive consumerism than she exhibits the rest of the year. The sending and the opening of gift after gift that no one asked for or wants just sickens me.
So every year, like clockwork, I passively aggressively do little or nothing to “celebrate” the day with her, then she launches into a monologue about how I’m too selfish to take her feelings into consideration.
To be clear, she is not demanding that I spend a lot of money on her. But gift-giving is part of her “love language” and - partly for childhood reasons of which she is aware but out of sympathy with - I can/will not speak it.
I’m very tired of this cycle. She’s a wonderful woman and she deserves better.
What have you tried doing differently so far?
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 11:48 AM on December 24 [8 favorites]
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 11:48 AM on December 24 [8 favorites]
One day a year. One day. For a "wonderful woman". I feel for you, in fairness, that you are in whatever mental place you are in that has you posting this on Christmas Eve, but friend...
In some attempt to answer the question, the cycle probably can be broken, but you're the one who has to break it, and want to break it, and be willing to put the work into breaking it, be that through therapy, going abroad for Christmas or whatever, but passive agressiveness is fucked.
posted by Iteki at 11:52 AM on December 24 [55 favorites]
In some attempt to answer the question, the cycle probably can be broken, but you're the one who has to break it, and want to break it, and be willing to put the work into breaking it, be that through therapy, going abroad for Christmas or whatever, but passive agressiveness is fucked.
posted by Iteki at 11:52 AM on December 24 [55 favorites]
I cant imagine why you would do this, it sounds really hurtful. My husband didn’t buy me any gifts for several years and when he did (after I begged him to take the kids to buy me something to show he cared) they were basically crap… think a straw summer hat for a preteen or a pleather wallet from the grocery store gift section. Then he criticized the gifts I got for the kids- said he thought I was spoiling them because he would only have bought 4-5 nice things like painting sets. When they were much smaller I asked for help putting together some toys and he would “take out the paper to the paper bin” and then just never come back. It would happen over and over. Today he pulled some gifts out from hiding spots downstairs that weren’t wrapped and left them laying around the kitchen so my older son saw them and his excuse was he didn’t want me to forget it was down there but my son liked it and didn’t mind. Half an hour before bedtime he suddenly said he had a fever and started shaking and asked me to help him make a cup of tea and he went upstairs rattling the cup and moaning and stayed up there watching television. Now he’s going to bed and I’m going to get everything ready alone.
I don’t know why people ruin holidays for other people? I genuinely don’t. Passive aggressiveness is awful. I used to cry so many times. I don’t know how you stop a cycle you know you do and repeatedly do anyway. But I can tell you from the other persons point of view that eventually she may just get fed up.
Today when my husband pathetically excused himself from any productive help, I was just like: how pathetic and sad that this grown man acts like this but I’m not going to give it attention and this year I didn’t buy anything that needed assembly. I got him a nice gift that he needed and I’m going to buy myself something very nice later on and the kids will have a great time.
Really I think it has worked like this: over time he had an ego where he thought he deserved something from me and he didn’t get it. He was hurt and felt I needed to be treated badly. Instead of communicating so we could take responsibility and we could make changes he was punishing and a jerk. When he might have had a tinge he was a jerk he felt bad but shut that down by returning to how I’d actually hurt him so I was bad but it was a while ago and he couldn’t communicate so he was passive aggressive instead about various faults (not tidy enough, spending too much money on kids gifts) it’s easy to be a critic of an occasion and a person and lets him off the responsibility of actually being part of it and having a responsibility for a good time. Why help buy the gifts- he can dump it all on me and then blame me for spoiling the kids. Help me out toys together? He didn’t make me buy that stuff?
Anyway, I don’t care anymore. I enjoy my own Christmas. Get i want for myself. Love my kids. Appreciate what he does help with and things are better but who the hell has times for these ridiculous selfish shenanigans. You need therapy and deep honesty with yourself.
posted by flink at 12:01 PM on December 24 [44 favorites]
I don’t know why people ruin holidays for other people? I genuinely don’t. Passive aggressiveness is awful. I used to cry so many times. I don’t know how you stop a cycle you know you do and repeatedly do anyway. But I can tell you from the other persons point of view that eventually she may just get fed up.
Today when my husband pathetically excused himself from any productive help, I was just like: how pathetic and sad that this grown man acts like this but I’m not going to give it attention and this year I didn’t buy anything that needed assembly. I got him a nice gift that he needed and I’m going to buy myself something very nice later on and the kids will have a great time.
Really I think it has worked like this: over time he had an ego where he thought he deserved something from me and he didn’t get it. He was hurt and felt I needed to be treated badly. Instead of communicating so we could take responsibility and we could make changes he was punishing and a jerk. When he might have had a tinge he was a jerk he felt bad but shut that down by returning to how I’d actually hurt him so I was bad but it was a while ago and he couldn’t communicate so he was passive aggressive instead about various faults (not tidy enough, spending too much money on kids gifts) it’s easy to be a critic of an occasion and a person and lets him off the responsibility of actually being part of it and having a responsibility for a good time. Why help buy the gifts- he can dump it all on me and then blame me for spoiling the kids. Help me out toys together? He didn’t make me buy that stuff?
Anyway, I don’t care anymore. I enjoy my own Christmas. Get i want for myself. Love my kids. Appreciate what he does help with and things are better but who the hell has times for these ridiculous selfish shenanigans. You need therapy and deep honesty with yourself.
posted by flink at 12:01 PM on December 24 [44 favorites]
Best answer: I dislike gift-giving and consumerism myself so I have some sympathy. But you cannot be passive-aggressive! You need to sit down and negotiate/communicate.
posted by equalpants at 12:01 PM on December 24 [31 favorites]
posted by equalpants at 12:01 PM on December 24 [31 favorites]
I'm going to go against the grain here. Why does @Lemkin have to be the only one to change? Why can't their wife also modify her behavior?
I disagree that it's "one day a year." It's many months leading up to Christmas that unrelentingly pressure us to participate in a guilt-driven buying frenzy.
posted by Dolley at 12:03 PM on December 24 [14 favorites]
I disagree that it's "one day a year." It's many months leading up to Christmas that unrelentingly pressure us to participate in a guilt-driven buying frenzy.
posted by Dolley at 12:03 PM on December 24 [14 favorites]
Things I need to know to answer this question:
- What does your wife's "compulsive consumerism" look like the rest of the year? I can't tell if this is a case of her genuinely getting you into trouble by spending compulsively or you're just very frugal and she buys more things than you'd prefer.
- Would it sicken you if she sent gifts people did ask for or want? Like, is she really bombarding people with a number of gifts they also find excessive, or are you the only one who finds them excessive?
- What does it look like when you "passively aggressively do little or nothing to 'celebrate' the day with her"?
- What are the childhood reasons? Why doesn't she have sympathy for them if she is aware of them? What does her lack of sympathy look like - how is she demonstrating this?
- What does her ideal Christmas look like? What does yours look like?
I see a lot about how you feel here, and about your perceptions, but very little concrete information on the way people are behaving.
posted by wheatlets at 12:09 PM on December 24 [35 favorites]
- What does your wife's "compulsive consumerism" look like the rest of the year? I can't tell if this is a case of her genuinely getting you into trouble by spending compulsively or you're just very frugal and she buys more things than you'd prefer.
- Would it sicken you if she sent gifts people did ask for or want? Like, is she really bombarding people with a number of gifts they also find excessive, or are you the only one who finds them excessive?
- What does it look like when you "passively aggressively do little or nothing to 'celebrate' the day with her"?
- What are the childhood reasons? Why doesn't she have sympathy for them if she is aware of them? What does her lack of sympathy look like - how is she demonstrating this?
- What does her ideal Christmas look like? What does yours look like?
I see a lot about how you feel here, and about your perceptions, but very little concrete information on the way people are behaving.
posted by wheatlets at 12:09 PM on December 24 [35 favorites]
as you describe your actions, you are communicating, 'what you are doing is so disgusting to me that it's worthy of twenty six years of unresolved conflict.' are you sure that's what you mean to communicate?
anyway, to answer your question, i think you should give her a gift today. either one that you've purchased thoughtfully (something she wants, within your budget, that will make a ritual in her life more pleasant or some aspect of daily life easier), or one that you've made yourself -- it doesn't have to be a beautiful ritual object to be an interesting experience. after you've given her the gift, you should talk with her sincerely about this pattern that you're both in. try to listen to each other. apologize for creating the 26th fight; apologize for not resolving the fight for twenty six years. then, if you're sincere about loving her, you could commit to doing christmas with her next year in a way that satisfies both your needs.
posted by zeee at 12:09 PM on December 24 [27 favorites]
anyway, to answer your question, i think you should give her a gift today. either one that you've purchased thoughtfully (something she wants, within your budget, that will make a ritual in her life more pleasant or some aspect of daily life easier), or one that you've made yourself -- it doesn't have to be a beautiful ritual object to be an interesting experience. after you've given her the gift, you should talk with her sincerely about this pattern that you're both in. try to listen to each other. apologize for creating the 26th fight; apologize for not resolving the fight for twenty six years. then, if you're sincere about loving her, you could commit to doing christmas with her next year in a way that satisfies both your needs.
posted by zeee at 12:09 PM on December 24 [27 favorites]
I mean, what would you rather be doing...? Why not put that out in the space? Why focus on what you can’t stand and ruin her enjoyment? I get it, you don’t like it. That’s ok, you’ll live. You can compromise by meeting in the middle or you could make an effort to proactively steer your time together towards other things. But sulking passive aggressively in a way you know ruins her enjoyment is your personal choice.
posted by seemoorglass at 12:10 PM on December 24 [25 favorites]
posted by seemoorglass at 12:10 PM on December 24 [25 favorites]
Would she be happy with gifts that take you time to make but don't cost much? Then you are avoiding consumerism but still celebrating and showing that you care.
E.g.
- hand-drawing her a Christmas card
- packing a picnic for the park
- take on an extra household chore for a week
- you cook a delicious Christmas meal
My spouse and I also dislike consumerism and we do not purchase gifts. But we do other things to make Christmas feel fun such as music, cooking a feast, going to look at Christmas lights in the park.
posted by vienna at 12:10 PM on December 24 [21 favorites]
E.g.
- hand-drawing her a Christmas card
- packing a picnic for the park
- take on an extra household chore for a week
- you cook a delicious Christmas meal
My spouse and I also dislike consumerism and we do not purchase gifts. But we do other things to make Christmas feel fun such as music, cooking a feast, going to look at Christmas lights in the park.
posted by vienna at 12:10 PM on December 24 [21 favorites]
I'm with you. I'm suffering in a parking lot waiting for healthcare at a disgustingly understaffed clinic bc the goddam Christian hegemony says everyone must suffer these few days, xtian or not. And keep in mind most metro areas are more than 40% non-Christian.
I don't see why you need to be the one to cave here, other than Christian-consumerism-as-default bias. Why is she consistently so disrespectful of the obvious trauma you carry surrounding this disgusting display?
I say you try to meet in the middle. Don't be passive aggressively snarky, but don't buy in. And tell her you are happy to celebrate another holiday with her as a special thing. Could be Solstice or Yule or New Year etc. there are something like 50 holidays in December or early Jan, or you can pick one farther from the nauseating hubbub too.
TLDR: try not to yuck her yum but you are absolutely not required as a good husband to grin an eat this shit sandwich. She should give you some grace here too, there's plenty of third and fourth options that are not personally warring on Xmas nor participating in something that you clearly loathe.
Good luck!
And remember friends, if you celebrate Xmas as a non-xtian, you are supporting the xtian hegemony and all the evil they do!
posted by SaltySalticid at 12:11 PM on December 24 [8 favorites]
I don't see why you need to be the one to cave here, other than Christian-consumerism-as-default bias. Why is she consistently so disrespectful of the obvious trauma you carry surrounding this disgusting display?
I say you try to meet in the middle. Don't be passive aggressively snarky, but don't buy in. And tell her you are happy to celebrate another holiday with her as a special thing. Could be Solstice or Yule or New Year etc. there are something like 50 holidays in December or early Jan, or you can pick one farther from the nauseating hubbub too.
TLDR: try not to yuck her yum but you are absolutely not required as a good husband to grin an eat this shit sandwich. She should give you some grace here too, there's plenty of third and fourth options that are not personally warring on Xmas nor participating in something that you clearly loathe.
Good luck!
And remember friends, if you celebrate Xmas as a non-xtian, you are supporting the xtian hegemony and all the evil they do!
posted by SaltySalticid at 12:11 PM on December 24 [8 favorites]
@dolley Why does @Lemkin have to be the only one to change? Why can't their wife also modify her behavior?
Because Lemkin is the one asking the question.
posted by seemoorglass at 12:12 PM on December 24 [37 favorites]
Because Lemkin is the one asking the question.
posted by seemoorglass at 12:12 PM on December 24 [37 favorites]
If I imagine a compromise - in which you participate by giving thoughtful, hand-made gift on which you've spent time but not money - which of you backs down?
If it's you, it's christmas eve, and you could still write a poem. If it's her, well, in that case this internet stranger is more similar to you than to her. But I'm not the one married to her, so that probably doesn't solve much.
posted by wattle at 12:12 PM on December 24 [1 favorite]
If it's you, it's christmas eve, and you could still write a poem. If it's her, well, in that case this internet stranger is more similar to you than to her. But I'm not the one married to her, so that probably doesn't solve much.
posted by wattle at 12:12 PM on December 24 [1 favorite]
I want to add, I see this as particularly not good because when you get married you are forming a life together and presumably you knew she wanted to have a life in which she celebrated Christmas with you. To marry her and then not celebrate Christmas with her in a meaningful way is making her life a life in which a specific holiday is not something she is able to form cozy living memories of- and in fact the opposite- she’s having to form bad ones. So I don’t think she should have to change here. And if you really want to break the pattern I bet you could do it really fast by admitting that you’ve been expecting her to be different than she is… watch the Christmas movie and eat the cookies… give her a nice gift… listen to the music and talk to her about money (if that’s the problem, with honesty) and be honest about the anger and resentment because that’s often where passive aggression comes from… or from not meeting your own needs in a healthy way and manipulating… through ruining the day or relationship so you can be free to meet them because the other person has gotten so mad they’re giving you space.
posted by flink at 12:15 PM on December 24 [6 favorites]
posted by flink at 12:15 PM on December 24 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: What have you tried doing differently so far?
I’ve explained to her how the gift-giving circuit was burned out of me long before we met. I probably haven’t told her as frankly I’ve told all of you how upsetting her behavior is to me. It’s like watching a bulimic bingeing on candy bars and they don’t want to hear anything about their having an eating disorder.
If the consensus advice is “Fake it for one lousy day, you cad”, I’m open to any practical suggestions how.
posted by Lemkin at 12:16 PM on December 24
I’ve explained to her how the gift-giving circuit was burned out of me long before we met. I probably haven’t told her as frankly I’ve told all of you how upsetting her behavior is to me. It’s like watching a bulimic bingeing on candy bars and they don’t want to hear anything about their having an eating disorder.
If the consensus advice is “Fake it for one lousy day, you cad”, I’m open to any practical suggestions how.
posted by Lemkin at 12:16 PM on December 24
That is definitely not my advice. Talk with her, explain why you feel the way you do, and see whether she will compromise by dialing back her compulsive consumerism. You can certainly move a bit and buy (or make) her one or two gifts.
You do not have to do all the compromising, even if you did ask the question.
posted by Dolley at 12:20 PM on December 24 [8 favorites]
You do not have to do all the compromising, even if you did ask the question.
posted by Dolley at 12:20 PM on December 24 [8 favorites]
I think you’ll have to really break down what the issue is. Is it the time she spends shopping, how much she spends? Does she need to discuss every gift purchase and you are totally burnt out for 3 months straight? Do you need to spend an hour with all 50 people she bought gifts for? I have no idea of knowing how big the problem is but maybe book a few sessions with someone who can help you really articulate and make a plan to solve it. Maybe, just maybe, if you could find a way to connect with her- she would calm down and feel secure in your love during the holidays… maybe that’s possible…
posted by flink at 12:20 PM on December 24 [17 favorites]
posted by flink at 12:20 PM on December 24 [17 favorites]
I’m also against waste and deadweight even when disguised as presents, but presents and affection and celebration are valuable and we have to provide alternatives to the consumerist version if we actually want to undercut it.
"Something you somehow haven’t to deserve."
Like, cook a feast you both like, and maybe one for a shelter you both approve of; organize a seasonal event (attend something musical, make cocoa and hot potatoes for a covid-safe amble through winter weather), do heavy cleaning and organizing so the household enters the new year feeling at its best. Figure out how everyone can have wish lists given your families’ social/economic/technological constraints so that the gifts aren’t deadweight. Any of these. The less you do, the more she’ll do to make up the lack and the thinner she’s spread over the problem the more compulsive shopping will be the achievable outlet.
Or, if you actually want a divorce, think about doing that well and safely and generously.
posted by clew at 12:21 PM on December 24 [19 favorites]
"Something you somehow haven’t to deserve."
Like, cook a feast you both like, and maybe one for a shelter you both approve of; organize a seasonal event (attend something musical, make cocoa and hot potatoes for a covid-safe amble through winter weather), do heavy cleaning and organizing so the household enters the new year feeling at its best. Figure out how everyone can have wish lists given your families’ social/economic/technological constraints so that the gifts aren’t deadweight. Any of these. The less you do, the more she’ll do to make up the lack and the thinner she’s spread over the problem the more compulsive shopping will be the achievable outlet.
Or, if you actually want a divorce, think about doing that well and safely and generously.
posted by clew at 12:21 PM on December 24 [19 favorites]
don't land on "Fake it for one lousy day."
the root problem here is "faking it" -- when you're inauthentic about your needs/feelings (i.e., "I passively aggressively do little or nothing to “celebrate” the day with her" [...] "[which earns me] a monologue about how I’m too selfish") , you're not doing the work to present yourself in a way that helps mrs. lemkin hear you or feel heard herself
how can you help each other when you're not listening to each other? you are partners
posted by zeee at 12:23 PM on December 24 [7 favorites]
the root problem here is "faking it" -- when you're inauthentic about your needs/feelings (i.e., "I passively aggressively do little or nothing to “celebrate” the day with her" [...] "[which earns me] a monologue about how I’m too selfish") , you're not doing the work to present yourself in a way that helps mrs. lemkin hear you or feel heard herself
how can you help each other when you're not listening to each other? you are partners
posted by zeee at 12:23 PM on December 24 [7 favorites]
I don't understand. What exactly is happening on the day that you can't tolerate? Is the problem the amount of money spent, the fact that the gifts given are not wanted, or not of utility? Are you having family over this is being shared with? I'm genuinely not clear on the problem we are attempting to solve.
posted by DarlingBri at 12:24 PM on December 24 [24 favorites]
posted by DarlingBri at 12:24 PM on December 24 [24 favorites]
You can also do nice gift giving without going to the mall much… there is great advice here if you ask and you can order a few in October or November and forget about it and then a lovely Xmas bouquet or real wreath delivered. Those things are extremely tasteful- very christmassy and you wouldn’t need to go to a shop. Something like jewelry or start changing out stuff you already have for upgraded versions never feels like consumerism to me. Not sure if that way of thinking works for you.
posted by flink at 12:26 PM on December 24 [1 favorite]
posted by flink at 12:26 PM on December 24 [1 favorite]
Best answer: If the consensus advice is “Fake it for one lousy day, you cad”, I’m open to any practical suggestions how.
If this is really the only thing you're getting from these responses, my answer to this is: find something to enjoy. Just one thing, and concentrate on that. Allow yourself to feel joy in it. Wallow in it. Do you like cooking? Become the chef and make a kickass meal. Sharing time with family? Facilitate that with your loved ones. Do you want to travel? Next year, take her on a Christmas vacation somewhere for just the two of you. Cultivate experiences. Learn to count to ten before you make a complaint or a passive aggressive comment. Notice how much time you spend in negative spaces (online, offline) and cut down on that.
Stop concentrating on what you hate. Embrace what you enjoy. Allow her to enjoy what she does.
Remember, in all things: life is too, too short. If this was (God forbid) your last Christmas together, how would you want her to remember it? With a passive aggressive and miserable husband? Or with a man who tried hard to find some joy in difficult circumstances?
posted by fight or flight at 12:34 PM on December 24 [75 favorites]
If this is really the only thing you're getting from these responses, my answer to this is: find something to enjoy. Just one thing, and concentrate on that. Allow yourself to feel joy in it. Wallow in it. Do you like cooking? Become the chef and make a kickass meal. Sharing time with family? Facilitate that with your loved ones. Do you want to travel? Next year, take her on a Christmas vacation somewhere for just the two of you. Cultivate experiences. Learn to count to ten before you make a complaint or a passive aggressive comment. Notice how much time you spend in negative spaces (online, offline) and cut down on that.
Stop concentrating on what you hate. Embrace what you enjoy. Allow her to enjoy what she does.
Remember, in all things: life is too, too short. If this was (God forbid) your last Christmas together, how would you want her to remember it? With a passive aggressive and miserable husband? Or with a man who tried hard to find some joy in difficult circumstances?
posted by fight or flight at 12:34 PM on December 24 [75 favorites]
Celebrating doesn't have to mean gifts, so if you're refusing to have anything fancier to eat or play games or listen to music, this is deeper than just anti-consumerism.
If the issue is her gifts to you and how thankful you appear, do you provide her a very specific list of items you would like? I don't care if it is your favorite snack or a pair of socks or a medical device. It can be boring or even unromantic, but something you would have normally bought for yourself and that you allow her to buy instead and wrap for you as a gesture of appreciation for her love language.
If it is the gifts that you give her, ask for a small wish list. Explain you want to show your love but need help finding something that she actually wants. Then also include some flowers, treat, or sub $10 item you know she'd like that was not on her list. For example, something consumable but useful like a fancy notebook, or chocolate covered almonds. Gifts do not need to be surprises.
Another way to go is to see if she gets the same fulfillment from charitable giving. Buying gifts for a kid from a wish tree or adopting a family or pet shelter for the season can help you both appreciate what you do have.
posted by soelo at 12:39 PM on December 24 [6 favorites]
If the issue is her gifts to you and how thankful you appear, do you provide her a very specific list of items you would like? I don't care if it is your favorite snack or a pair of socks or a medical device. It can be boring or even unromantic, but something you would have normally bought for yourself and that you allow her to buy instead and wrap for you as a gesture of appreciation for her love language.
If it is the gifts that you give her, ask for a small wish list. Explain you want to show your love but need help finding something that she actually wants. Then also include some flowers, treat, or sub $10 item you know she'd like that was not on her list. For example, something consumable but useful like a fancy notebook, or chocolate covered almonds. Gifts do not need to be surprises.
Another way to go is to see if she gets the same fulfillment from charitable giving. Buying gifts for a kid from a wish tree or adopting a family or pet shelter for the season can help you both appreciate what you do have.
posted by soelo at 12:39 PM on December 24 [6 favorites]
Best answer: If the consensus advice is “Fake it for one lousy day, you cad”, I’m open to any practical suggestions how.
I mean, you love her, right? Does seeing her happy bring you joy? Or even simple pleasure? Concentrate on that - creating it, noticing it, enjoying it.
posted by penguin pie at 12:44 PM on December 24 [36 favorites]
I mean, you love her, right? Does seeing her happy bring you joy? Or even simple pleasure? Concentrate on that - creating it, noticing it, enjoying it.
posted by penguin pie at 12:44 PM on December 24 [36 favorites]
Yeah, after half a century you have lost all plausibility. It is not cool to keep complaining about your spouse's known feelings about the holidays. So unless there is massive credit card debt in January in the face of a decrease in income, it's not reasonable to expect a change in their attitude.
On the other hand, you can lobby for some gifts and celebrations that take your own feelings into account. I have several relatives that strongly discourage gifts because they have the means to buy anything they need.
The holidays can be the season where people spend money that they don't have for presents that others don't want.
I propose a compromise -- buy gifts that the children and tweens will enjoy. Get gift certificates (and cash) for the teenagers, plus something fun and lighthearted to unwrap because everybody likes to find something with their name on it under the xmas tree.
Adults get experience gifts (we had a thread on that recently). No one wants another kitchen gadget, or a keepsake that they will feel obligated to display.
The watchword is "thoughtful."
Work with your spouse on this project, since they will feel judged by what others receive next year. After all, it's been on them to do the heavy lifting up until now.
Good luck.
posted by TrishaU at 12:46 PM on December 24 [2 favorites]
On the other hand, you can lobby for some gifts and celebrations that take your own feelings into account. I have several relatives that strongly discourage gifts because they have the means to buy anything they need.
The holidays can be the season where people spend money that they don't have for presents that others don't want.
I propose a compromise -- buy gifts that the children and tweens will enjoy. Get gift certificates (and cash) for the teenagers, plus something fun and lighthearted to unwrap because everybody likes to find something with their name on it under the xmas tree.
Adults get experience gifts (we had a thread on that recently). No one wants another kitchen gadget, or a keepsake that they will feel obligated to display.
The watchword is "thoughtful."
Work with your spouse on this project, since they will feel judged by what others receive next year. After all, it's been on them to do the heavy lifting up until now.
Good luck.
posted by TrishaU at 12:46 PM on December 24 [2 favorites]
Has it always been this way? Or has she ramped up her consumption and gift-giving to compensate for your non-participation? It’s possible that if you give a little more she might feel less desperate to do it all herself and cover for you. Societal expectations like Christmas gift-giving often fall more heavily on women and she might be feeling shame or embarrassment that she has to do it all alone without a spouse to share in the burden and joy of the holiday and doesn’t want anyone else to figure it out.
And, I can imagine that some of her consumption and over-doing it might be a way to deal with the hurt she feels over your approach to Christmas.
posted by stellaluna at 12:48 PM on December 24 [33 favorites]
And, I can imagine that some of her consumption and over-doing it might be a way to deal with the hurt she feels over your approach to Christmas.
posted by stellaluna at 12:48 PM on December 24 [33 favorites]
Do the two of you have to spend Christmas together? Can she visit or spend some time with other family or friends who enjoy celebrating as much as she does, while you get some peace and quiet? (Or vice versa, she can have the house full of guests and Christmas cheer and you can take off for some alone time?)
posted by eponym at 12:48 PM on December 24 [8 favorites]
posted by eponym at 12:48 PM on December 24 [8 favorites]
OK, so you love each other and are fine the rest of the year. It's just Christmas you disagree on. You can definitely work that out. How about a compromise?
-- She wants a Christmas gift from you. OK, tell her to make a Christmas list on Amazon or somewhere like that where it's really easy for you to pick something out, and agree on a spending limit. If there are a few things on the list, it's still a surprise. Then you spend 5 minutes and some money, and she gets a gift from you that she will like. Many retailers will also do the wrapping for you, if that is important. If gifts are important to someone, figure out a way to make it painless and easy for you. If she wants you to read her mind and pick something out, that is a communication and expectations problem to solve separate from the logistics of "gifts make you happy therefore make it easy for me to get a nice gift."
-- In terms of sending gifts to others, work together on the list of what you are sending and what you actually have to do. For us it's like this-- if they send us a card, we send them a card. If we know they like fruitcake and cookies, we send that. If they expect a present, we plan for that and send it, and we move people to digital-only or donation-in-your-name only or membership-to-something-only where possible to cut down on physical goods being shipped around. But the key to this part is working together on narrowing down what is important, how much you are going to spend, and then sticking to that. This is actually a nice way to have a conversation about your priorities; you are willing to compromise on participating within the boundaries of price and time. If you don't want to be part of making, packing, and mailing cookies, then say that, but include what you are willing to do.
-- You don't want gifts nor do you want to participate in Christmas. Can you go somewhere else where you are not in the way of her celebration? Like, can you go visit a friend or to a silent retreat or something for the week of Christmas instead, and let her have a nice time?
-- Encourage her to have family and friends over while you are not there. They can have a great time, you call to check in and wish her a happy holiday and to say hi to the visitors, and then you go back to whatever you are doing. If there is some tedious task that just has to be completed, then go do that so nobody interrogates her on why you aren't there (Oh, my husband is out reticulating the splines again! So sorry he's missing you but it has to be done!)
--Alternatively, if you can send her on a cruise or a trip with her best friend or sister or someone over the holidays, that is a gift in itself and then you can be at home not celebrating. Send them on a trip to a Christmas market in Germany maybe. And then they come back and tell you all about it, which is at least interesting to hear about, and if they fly they probably can't bring back a bunch of stuff.
Just-- figure out a way to make it fun and happy for her, minimizing how much you have to participate. If you love each other, this is a combination communication-logistical problem, it's not the end of the world.
posted by blnkfrnk at 12:49 PM on December 24 [7 favorites]
-- She wants a Christmas gift from you. OK, tell her to make a Christmas list on Amazon or somewhere like that where it's really easy for you to pick something out, and agree on a spending limit. If there are a few things on the list, it's still a surprise. Then you spend 5 minutes and some money, and she gets a gift from you that she will like. Many retailers will also do the wrapping for you, if that is important. If gifts are important to someone, figure out a way to make it painless and easy for you. If she wants you to read her mind and pick something out, that is a communication and expectations problem to solve separate from the logistics of "gifts make you happy therefore make it easy for me to get a nice gift."
-- In terms of sending gifts to others, work together on the list of what you are sending and what you actually have to do. For us it's like this-- if they send us a card, we send them a card. If we know they like fruitcake and cookies, we send that. If they expect a present, we plan for that and send it, and we move people to digital-only or donation-in-your-name only or membership-to-something-only where possible to cut down on physical goods being shipped around. But the key to this part is working together on narrowing down what is important, how much you are going to spend, and then sticking to that. This is actually a nice way to have a conversation about your priorities; you are willing to compromise on participating within the boundaries of price and time. If you don't want to be part of making, packing, and mailing cookies, then say that, but include what you are willing to do.
-- You don't want gifts nor do you want to participate in Christmas. Can you go somewhere else where you are not in the way of her celebration? Like, can you go visit a friend or to a silent retreat or something for the week of Christmas instead, and let her have a nice time?
-- Encourage her to have family and friends over while you are not there. They can have a great time, you call to check in and wish her a happy holiday and to say hi to the visitors, and then you go back to whatever you are doing. If there is some tedious task that just has to be completed, then go do that so nobody interrogates her on why you aren't there (Oh, my husband is out reticulating the splines again! So sorry he's missing you but it has to be done!)
--Alternatively, if you can send her on a cruise or a trip with her best friend or sister or someone over the holidays, that is a gift in itself and then you can be at home not celebrating. Send them on a trip to a Christmas market in Germany maybe. And then they come back and tell you all about it, which is at least interesting to hear about, and if they fly they probably can't bring back a bunch of stuff.
Just-- figure out a way to make it fun and happy for her, minimizing how much you have to participate. If you love each other, this is a combination communication-logistical problem, it's not the end of the world.
posted by blnkfrnk at 12:49 PM on December 24 [7 favorites]
I am also a little confused at what exactly the problem is. Is it that she feels compelled to give you ten gifts, and they end up being ten things you don't like, and you're expected to pretend to like them? What if you gave her a list of things you do want? And you could put on the list things that are consumable, if you want to avoid "stuff."
I also wonder if you can maybe lean into some element of the holidays that you could at least not loathe - cooking a big meal for family and friends isn't consumerist, but could be a way of showing your wife you want to give her a nice holiday. Decorating may require a bit of consumerism, but can add genuine festive cheer - especially lights.
But generally, I do think (after Xmas) you should have a sit down where you express what your ideal Christmas would look like, and she does the same, and then you try to figure out a compromise somewhere in the middle.
posted by coffeecat at 12:51 PM on December 24 [8 favorites]
I also wonder if you can maybe lean into some element of the holidays that you could at least not loathe - cooking a big meal for family and friends isn't consumerist, but could be a way of showing your wife you want to give her a nice holiday. Decorating may require a bit of consumerism, but can add genuine festive cheer - especially lights.
But generally, I do think (after Xmas) you should have a sit down where you express what your ideal Christmas would look like, and she does the same, and then you try to figure out a compromise somewhere in the middle.
posted by coffeecat at 12:51 PM on December 24 [8 favorites]
It’s like watching a bulimic bingeing on candy bars and they don’t want to hear anything about their having an eating disorder.
Does she spend so much at the holidays that you are at risk of going into unsupportable debt, losing your house, or being unable to afford the life you currently lead? If so, your metaphor holds and this is a conversation to be had in couples therapy AFTER the holiday.
If not, you are yucking her yum. Capitalism sucks, but anticipating gifting something to someone you care about is a delight for many people, and nobody is asking you to mirror her actions, but pooping all over what gives her such huge joy is like telling a little 5yo kid who delights in making you decorative clay ashtrays that smoking is bad, you don't smoke, you don't want the little sculptures, and they don't have any artistic talent. It's not cool, dude.
If you love someone, you support them even if you don't like their activities. If all you refused to do was buy stuff for other people, then I'd shrug. But I passively aggressively do little or nothing to “celebrate” the day with heris unkind. I'm not even Christian, and I get into Christmas more than that, especially for the benefit of the people around me.
If you don't buy into someone's religious beliefs, do you go to their weddings or bar mitzvahs and cross your arms in front of you and play "grey rock" and ruin everyone else's experience? Do you refuse to celebrate other people's joy because you don't believe in the things that give them joy? I don't like football, but I'm not going to ruin someone's Superbowl party by harrumphing around.
If you don't want to focus on the consumerism, come up with a buttload of Christmasy experiential things the two of you can do to show you are appreciating her love of Christmas.
* See if she wants to take a drive to where a lot of houses are decorated with lights.
* Take her ice skating.
* Set up a hot chocolate bar in the house.
* Ask her to sit and look through photos or photo albums of Christmastime when you first got together.
Value your wife. It's not about the gifts, it's about the love she's trying to share with people. How she does it may not be your way of doing things, but if you can't focus on the fact that it brings her freakin' joy, then you are the Grinch. Don't be the grinch.
If you were Jewish (as I am) or atheist or any religion other than Christian, married to a woman who grew up with all the cultural and/or religious trappings of the holiday, would you "passively agrressively do little or nothing to "celebrate" the day with her" or would you support her by celebrating in a way that bridged the gap?
You don't have to like that she is fully embracing consumerism (for whatever reasons she has). But you have to treat her like she's the most important person in your life, or you need to let her find someone who will.
Apologize. Tell her that just because you don't value consumerism and gift-giving, it doesn't mean you don't value her, and you haven't known how to behave like a grownup in a true partnership. Tell her you'll do better. Tell her what you would like to do to meet her halfway and focus on experiential aspects of the holiday.
I'm agog at what people spend on things: alcohol, cars, accessories. But I'll happily toast them (with my diet Coke), enjoy the ride they ask me to take, or compliment their taste in a nice bag. You don't get to yuk someone else's yum and claim you love someone.
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 12:58 PM on December 24 [43 favorites]
Does she spend so much at the holidays that you are at risk of going into unsupportable debt, losing your house, or being unable to afford the life you currently lead? If so, your metaphor holds and this is a conversation to be had in couples therapy AFTER the holiday.
If not, you are yucking her yum. Capitalism sucks, but anticipating gifting something to someone you care about is a delight for many people, and nobody is asking you to mirror her actions, but pooping all over what gives her such huge joy is like telling a little 5yo kid who delights in making you decorative clay ashtrays that smoking is bad, you don't smoke, you don't want the little sculptures, and they don't have any artistic talent. It's not cool, dude.
If you love someone, you support them even if you don't like their activities. If all you refused to do was buy stuff for other people, then I'd shrug. But I passively aggressively do little or nothing to “celebrate” the day with heris unkind. I'm not even Christian, and I get into Christmas more than that, especially for the benefit of the people around me.
If you don't buy into someone's religious beliefs, do you go to their weddings or bar mitzvahs and cross your arms in front of you and play "grey rock" and ruin everyone else's experience? Do you refuse to celebrate other people's joy because you don't believe in the things that give them joy? I don't like football, but I'm not going to ruin someone's Superbowl party by harrumphing around.
If you don't want to focus on the consumerism, come up with a buttload of Christmasy experiential things the two of you can do to show you are appreciating her love of Christmas.
* See if she wants to take a drive to where a lot of houses are decorated with lights.
* Take her ice skating.
* Set up a hot chocolate bar in the house.
* Ask her to sit and look through photos or photo albums of Christmastime when you first got together.
Value your wife. It's not about the gifts, it's about the love she's trying to share with people. How she does it may not be your way of doing things, but if you can't focus on the fact that it brings her freakin' joy, then you are the Grinch. Don't be the grinch.
If you were Jewish (as I am) or atheist or any religion other than Christian, married to a woman who grew up with all the cultural and/or religious trappings of the holiday, would you "passively agrressively do little or nothing to "celebrate" the day with her" or would you support her by celebrating in a way that bridged the gap?
You don't have to like that she is fully embracing consumerism (for whatever reasons she has). But you have to treat her like she's the most important person in your life, or you need to let her find someone who will.
Apologize. Tell her that just because you don't value consumerism and gift-giving, it doesn't mean you don't value her, and you haven't known how to behave like a grownup in a true partnership. Tell her you'll do better. Tell her what you would like to do to meet her halfway and focus on experiential aspects of the holiday.
I'm agog at what people spend on things: alcohol, cars, accessories. But I'll happily toast them (with my diet Coke), enjoy the ride they ask me to take, or compliment their taste in a nice bag. You don't get to yuk someone else's yum and claim you love someone.
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 12:58 PM on December 24 [43 favorites]
So it seems to me that this is a mismatch of values. Does this mismatch show up in other areas of your relationship? Are you aligned in other areas?
posted by sugarbomb at 12:59 PM on December 24 [1 favorite]
posted by sugarbomb at 12:59 PM on December 24 [1 favorite]
I think you’re not going to get anywhere without talking about those childhood factors. It sounds like you think gift-giving is disgusting, no one should do it, and you don’t want to be around anyone who does it either. That’s a bit more than “Christmas isn’t really my thing.”
posted by danceswithlight at 1:00 PM on December 24 [23 favorites]
posted by danceswithlight at 1:00 PM on December 24 [23 favorites]
I will buzz off after this, my third comment, but this is still rattling around in my brain:
Yes the nominal topic here is Christmas/gifts, but I think taking 20 big steps back is definitely in order. This question isn’t really about either of those topics IMO. To me it sounds like an issue with you feeling like your needs are getting heard / respected.
If you think about why this bothers you so much, what comes to mind? Not the what, but the why - is it you feeling she is steamrolling your trauma? The amount of time it takes away from your shared time together? The money spent (btw, whose money? Yours jointly? Or just hers?) the pressure you feel? Or the feeling of waste / overconsumption? Do you feel she should inherently just know to do things differently? Is it that you feel your two core values have diverged over time and you don’t recognize the person you fell in love with… etc
Surely even if it’s some or all of those together, 1-2 of them rise to the top of your frustration list. I think in order to come through this with a meaningful answer for how to improve this, you have to prioritize the issues, then systematically address them.
Ex. If #1 issue is feeling your trauma is being ignored, that warrants a conversation during a quiet day and you will need to prep some talking points in advance (I recommend the nonviolent communication scripts!)
Ex if #1 issue is true distress at the amt of plastic waste generated, write up a list of brands / retailers that utilize eco friendly packaging and ask her if she’d consider giving you the gift of purchasing eco-friendly next year. (Be prepared for her to decline, which is well within her rights)
Ex. If #1 issue is you’re just annoyed by the whole thing, and you can’t really qualify or quantify why but you just feel cranky about it - then yeah, maybe the “suck it up for one day” approach fits the bill.
posted by seemoorglass at 1:04 PM on December 24 [5 favorites]
Yes the nominal topic here is Christmas/gifts, but I think taking 20 big steps back is definitely in order. This question isn’t really about either of those topics IMO. To me it sounds like an issue with you feeling like your needs are getting heard / respected.
If you think about why this bothers you so much, what comes to mind? Not the what, but the why - is it you feeling she is steamrolling your trauma? The amount of time it takes away from your shared time together? The money spent (btw, whose money? Yours jointly? Or just hers?) the pressure you feel? Or the feeling of waste / overconsumption? Do you feel she should inherently just know to do things differently? Is it that you feel your two core values have diverged over time and you don’t recognize the person you fell in love with… etc
Surely even if it’s some or all of those together, 1-2 of them rise to the top of your frustration list. I think in order to come through this with a meaningful answer for how to improve this, you have to prioritize the issues, then systematically address them.
Ex. If #1 issue is feeling your trauma is being ignored, that warrants a conversation during a quiet day and you will need to prep some talking points in advance (I recommend the nonviolent communication scripts!)
Ex if #1 issue is true distress at the amt of plastic waste generated, write up a list of brands / retailers that utilize eco friendly packaging and ask her if she’d consider giving you the gift of purchasing eco-friendly next year. (Be prepared for her to decline, which is well within her rights)
Ex. If #1 issue is you’re just annoyed by the whole thing, and you can’t really qualify or quantify why but you just feel cranky about it - then yeah, maybe the “suck it up for one day” approach fits the bill.
posted by seemoorglass at 1:04 PM on December 24 [5 favorites]
seconding danceswithlight that "something fun and lighthearted to unwrap because everybody likes to find something with their name on it" isn’t actually true — OP pretty much says it isn’t for them.
posted by clew at 1:06 PM on December 24 [1 favorite]
posted by clew at 1:06 PM on December 24 [1 favorite]
Enlist a friend or relative of your wife's that you happen to have some regard for to help you choose and purchase a minimum of 5 gifts for her. One kind of big gift, one of lesser rank yet still thoughtful, and three bagatelles.
Pay the person or do them some non-trivial favor in return.
And starting after Halloween, when you think of something you want that’s not too expensive, don’t buy it and drop hints about how you want such and such, but can’t seem to get around to actually buying one. If you like coffee, for example, and there's some variety or roaster you’ve always wanted to try, mention that in passing to your wife.
posted by jamjam at 1:15 PM on December 24 [3 favorites]
Pay the person or do them some non-trivial favor in return.
And starting after Halloween, when you think of something you want that’s not too expensive, don’t buy it and drop hints about how you want such and such, but can’t seem to get around to actually buying one. If you like coffee, for example, and there's some variety or roaster you’ve always wanted to try, mention that in passing to your wife.
posted by jamjam at 1:15 PM on December 24 [3 favorites]
I am not a Christmas person, but my partner is. We've kind of figured it out over time. We handmake cards for each other that usually involve in-jokes from the previous year and we make unhinged Christmas food that we find on Pinterest. I'm still not really ok with the amount of shit I'm bombarded with as gifts sometimes, especially as we have a tiny apartment and nowhere to put things, but I have gotten to a point where I do understand this is an expression of love and appreciation, and a celebration of one more year surviving our current hellscape. On their side of things, they have heard my pleas to lighten up on the cute but ultimately useless knick-knacks and dust-gathering things. My gift-giving tends to be more practical (but not boring!), and it's important to me that they see how much I have considered them and their needs through what I buy. This year they are getting a museum membership, a pair of hand sewed (by me) pj pants in the goofiest fabric pattern possible, a new very fancy travel backpack because they got a new job that will require a lot of plane travel this year and their current one is literally falling apart, plus other useful travel stuff like a power bank and high-quality toilet bag. My goal is to let them know they are loved and seen and deserve to be pampered because they give so much of themselves to others around them.
I do think, for you, this is one of those situations where the Devil is in the details and without those it's hard to know how to approach it. Hopefully, something in these responses resonates and going forward you can reconcile your festive differences.
posted by BeeJiddy at 1:17 PM on December 24 [12 favorites]
I do think, for you, this is one of those situations where the Devil is in the details and without those it's hard to know how to approach it. Hopefully, something in these responses resonates and going forward you can reconcile your festive differences.
posted by BeeJiddy at 1:17 PM on December 24 [12 favorites]
Mid-binge wouldn't be the time to address an eating disorder, and it isn't the time to go after this either. I'm sorry you missed whatever window of opportunity there may have been for 2024, but at this point you need Christmas 2025+ strategies. It honestly seems like you going elsewhere during at least part of the gifting might actually be the kindest option available at this time, and I mean that as in kindest to both of you. Whatever actual harm this causes has already largely been done, I'd think, unless there are for example kids she'll be legitimately upsetting with manic behavior or something. I am willing to believe that this goes beyond what others seem to be imagining, but if it is just her being really into Christmas, then maybe try to see it as her weird hobby and be as bemusedly tolerant of that as you would if she spread it out over the whole year.
posted by teremala at 1:18 PM on December 24 [6 favorites]
posted by teremala at 1:18 PM on December 24 [6 favorites]
If the consensus advice is “Fake it for one lousy day, you cad”, I’m open to any practical suggestions how.
Drugs? I know several people who get through their extreme discomfort at holiday get togethers by using Xanax or cannabis to relax.
posted by Jacqueline at 1:42 PM on December 24 [9 favorites]
Drugs? I know several people who get through their extreme discomfort at holiday get togethers by using Xanax or cannabis to relax.
posted by Jacqueline at 1:42 PM on December 24 [9 favorites]
sometimes when stuff is bound up with childhood regrets and traumas, we think we have no choice but to react as children, whether we fall into the same patterns or zig far in the other direction in an attempt to “make up for” lost time. I am saying this because you generally seem like a thoughtful guy, Lemkin, and this is the most charitable explanation I can come up with for why you’re acting like a teenager who would rather be playing Fortnite than opening sweaters and wants to make sure everyone at Christmas knows it.
You don’t have to pretend you love the glitz and consumerism of Christmas, but you can focus on the fact that you love your wife, presumably other people in your family/friends. You can even play it off a little lighthearted: “oh, I’m the grinchy one in the marriage, but Mrs Lemkin put a lot of work into the (cookies/tree/wrapping/whatever), isn’t it lovely?”
posted by Why Is The World In Love Again? at 1:56 PM on December 24 [17 favorites]
You don’t have to pretend you love the glitz and consumerism of Christmas, but you can focus on the fact that you love your wife, presumably other people in your family/friends. You can even play it off a little lighthearted: “oh, I’m the grinchy one in the marriage, but Mrs Lemkin put a lot of work into the (cookies/tree/wrapping/whatever), isn’t it lovely?”
posted by Why Is The World In Love Again? at 1:56 PM on December 24 [17 favorites]
If it's the Christmas trappings of it in particular, maybe it would help to imagine it being a different hobby. Would you be able to be enthusiastic if she, say, spent a few months really excited about a trip to Comic Con with friends, talking about the things they were going to see, working on costumes and props, and spending money on tickets and travel?
posted by lucidium at 2:08 PM on December 24 [2 favorites]
posted by lucidium at 2:08 PM on December 24 [2 favorites]
You sound a lot like my ex-husband. This type of controlling behavior is part of why he's my ex. He also had strong principles, which I admire. But too often they got in the way of our connection and shared happiness. His rigidity and willingness to be passive-aggressive and hurtful when I didn't conform to his wishes eventually ruined an otherwise well-matched partnership.
If you'd rather be "right" than happy, please keep in mind your wife may not be infinitely accommodating to you ruining her holidays, and I'm guessing many other occasions besides. You don't have to conform to her values, but you don't have to be hurtful in order to stay true to yours, either.
posted by ananci at 2:11 PM on December 24 [45 favorites]
If you'd rather be "right" than happy, please keep in mind your wife may not be infinitely accommodating to you ruining her holidays, and I'm guessing many other occasions besides. You don't have to conform to her values, but you don't have to be hurtful in order to stay true to yours, either.
posted by ananci at 2:11 PM on December 24 [45 favorites]
If she were someone who liked Christmas in a less consumer-y way, what kinds of things would you appreciate or be okay with doing to celebrate? Decorating, cooking, baking, visiting family or friends, hosting people, watching movies, doing something special? Volunteering?
Do you have any vision of what the holiday could look like that you could enjoy?
For the actual day (and surrounding days, like today), I would try pitching in on whatever less consumer-y things your wife is doing. Even if it's just cleaning your place up for the holiday (but tell her that's why you're doing it, so she knows you're doing a Christmas thing intentionally). Tell her you're still having a hard time with tangible gifts, and it's something you guys should probably talk about at some point eventually, but right now you want to be less curmudgeonly and want to help this be a good holiday for her.
Giving her something you've wrapped and made festive - whether it's a thing you're happy to buy because she actually needs it, or (especially given the late date) a non-commercial gift, like a letter, or something you made (baked goods count), or "tickets" to some shared experience over the holidays.
Long term, besides having a talk, think about ways to compromise on your part. Like helping put together, over the year, a list of things (or experiences) you actually need or would kinda be happy receiving, and things you can give her without feeling bad. And watching to see if, rather than it truly being a case of her giving gifts that nobody wants, maybe some of the gifts she gives other people are actually welcome and do make them happy. And keep thinking about ways to show up for her on this holiday that you can feel good about. Maybe now, after all these years, you could start building some shared traditions together that don't center around gifts but do speak of love.
When you do have a talk, it's probably better to focus more on how bad consumerism (in general, not specific to her) feels to you than on how this feels like watching her binge-eat. (I say this while having similar feelings towards someone, especially since that someone simultaneously does something similar to binge-eating that does actually affect their health and happiness year-round. It is hard to be around, but telling them it's bad just makes them feel bad, and those behaviors are comforting mechanisms for them, so it's very counterproductive.)
posted by trig at 2:11 PM on December 24 [5 favorites]
Do you have any vision of what the holiday could look like that you could enjoy?
For the actual day (and surrounding days, like today), I would try pitching in on whatever less consumer-y things your wife is doing. Even if it's just cleaning your place up for the holiday (but tell her that's why you're doing it, so she knows you're doing a Christmas thing intentionally). Tell her you're still having a hard time with tangible gifts, and it's something you guys should probably talk about at some point eventually, but right now you want to be less curmudgeonly and want to help this be a good holiday for her.
Giving her something you've wrapped and made festive - whether it's a thing you're happy to buy because she actually needs it, or (especially given the late date) a non-commercial gift, like a letter, or something you made (baked goods count), or "tickets" to some shared experience over the holidays.
Long term, besides having a talk, think about ways to compromise on your part. Like helping put together, over the year, a list of things (or experiences) you actually need or would kinda be happy receiving, and things you can give her without feeling bad. And watching to see if, rather than it truly being a case of her giving gifts that nobody wants, maybe some of the gifts she gives other people are actually welcome and do make them happy. And keep thinking about ways to show up for her on this holiday that you can feel good about. Maybe now, after all these years, you could start building some shared traditions together that don't center around gifts but do speak of love.
When you do have a talk, it's probably better to focus more on how bad consumerism (in general, not specific to her) feels to you than on how this feels like watching her binge-eat. (I say this while having similar feelings towards someone, especially since that someone simultaneously does something similar to binge-eating that does actually affect their health and happiness year-round. It is hard to be around, but telling them it's bad just makes them feel bad, and those behaviors are comforting mechanisms for them, so it's very counterproductive.)
posted by trig at 2:11 PM on December 24 [5 favorites]
I'm going to focus more on your feelings than on your wife's here, because your feelings and reactions are the only ones you have any control over.
So, here's the the top line of your post:
"While I dislike Christmas in general, I hate my wife’s observance of it"
And yeah, Christmas can be a genuine PTSD trigger. You've done some of the work and insight on this: you've linked it back to your childhood. And you can separate the sort of atmospheric feelings about Christmas ("dislike") from the ones related to your wife at Christmas in particular ("hate", in italics.)
So you're not unaware, you see (at least some of) what's going on both with yourself and with her. But you (in your own words) "can/will not" do anything to change it.
When you can see the problem but cannot change it, that's a job for the professionals.
It's like household repairs. The stuff you can fix yourself, you do. The stuff your partner can fix, you rely on them for. But when the roof is leaking on Christmas Eve, it doesn't matter whose fault it is, you're both cold and wet and miserable and it needs to be fixed and you can't fix it yourselves, so you call in the pros.
Asking this question shows that you know the situation needs to change.
I think the hate, in italics, towards the way your wife does Christmas is a feeling too strong to be discussed with her without hurting her seriously (and she's already hurting). You need to talk to a therapist about it, someone whose job it is to listen to your strongest negative feelings and help you find ways of dealing with them that won't damage your marriage. You need both things: room to speak, shout, scream those negative feelings without fear of judgement, AND to find a way not to dump those feelings on your wife next Christmas.
The best gift you can give your wife right now is therapy, ideally for you both, but definitely for yourself.
And yes, therapy is expensive. But the alternative is sitting under that leaking roof, getting wetter and colder and more miserable till one of you leaves. MeFi has a good collective knowledge base for finding less expensive mental health care options in many locations. That might be a good next question.
Best of luck to you both.
posted by Pallas Athena at 2:12 PM on December 24 [43 favorites]
So, here's the the top line of your post:
"While I dislike Christmas in general, I hate my wife’s observance of it"
And yeah, Christmas can be a genuine PTSD trigger. You've done some of the work and insight on this: you've linked it back to your childhood. And you can separate the sort of atmospheric feelings about Christmas ("dislike") from the ones related to your wife at Christmas in particular ("hate", in italics.)
So you're not unaware, you see (at least some of) what's going on both with yourself and with her. But you (in your own words) "can/will not" do anything to change it.
When you can see the problem but cannot change it, that's a job for the professionals.
It's like household repairs. The stuff you can fix yourself, you do. The stuff your partner can fix, you rely on them for. But when the roof is leaking on Christmas Eve, it doesn't matter whose fault it is, you're both cold and wet and miserable and it needs to be fixed and you can't fix it yourselves, so you call in the pros.
Asking this question shows that you know the situation needs to change.
I think the hate, in italics, towards the way your wife does Christmas is a feeling too strong to be discussed with her without hurting her seriously (and she's already hurting). You need to talk to a therapist about it, someone whose job it is to listen to your strongest negative feelings and help you find ways of dealing with them that won't damage your marriage. You need both things: room to speak, shout, scream those negative feelings without fear of judgement, AND to find a way not to dump those feelings on your wife next Christmas.
The best gift you can give your wife right now is therapy, ideally for you both, but definitely for yourself.
And yes, therapy is expensive. But the alternative is sitting under that leaking roof, getting wetter and colder and more miserable till one of you leaves. MeFi has a good collective knowledge base for finding less expensive mental health care options in many locations. That might be a good next question.
Best of luck to you both.
posted by Pallas Athena at 2:12 PM on December 24 [43 favorites]
Remember, in all things: life is too, too short. If this was (God forbid) your last Christmas together, how would you want her to remember it? With a passive aggressive and miserable husband? Or with a man who tried hard to find some joy in difficult circumstances?
Emphasis on this. As an adult I've been mostly neutral on Christmas but this is my first Christmas without my mom and it's hard. That's the thing about grief, it's easy to miss the things that may have annoyed you about someone or something.
Like so many things, is it more important to you to be right or to be nice?
posted by girlmightlive at 2:12 PM on December 24 [11 favorites]
Emphasis on this. As an adult I've been mostly neutral on Christmas but this is my first Christmas without my mom and it's hard. That's the thing about grief, it's easy to miss the things that may have annoyed you about someone or something.
Like so many things, is it more important to you to be right or to be nice?
posted by girlmightlive at 2:12 PM on December 24 [11 favorites]
Hi! Evil xtian hegemony supporting shithead here! [waves in human monster]
Frankly I gotta give your wife props for putting up with this for 26 entire goddamn motherfucking years. She must love you so fucking much, do you get this? Can you even conceive of how much she must adore you to let you shit all over her special thing for long enough to conceive, birth, raise, and send a child to medical school? Holy fuck.
For this person who demonstrably loves you more than is strictly speaking necessary for any human, this person whose crime is literally "trying to do a joy and a generosity in a big way," you can do absolutely nothing whatsoever? I don't buy it. If this was Dear Abby the commenters would all be calling FAKE LETTER, NOBODY IS LIKE THIS IN REAL LIFE.
Harsh? Yeah, I'm harsh. Do you know how goddamn hard it is to be a woman in this fucking world? Do you know how little there is to give us light in the darkness? Do you know how much pressure is on us to create literal magic for the people around us at all times, to be a sprinkling of nonstop fucking fairy dust on all of you poor sulky middle-aged boys and also the actual children?
No I'm not saying "suck it up and fake it for her sake." I'm saying literally actually learn to see what she is and what she is doing and why you should love her for it for real until you DO LOVE HER AND IT.
Or just go to fucking therapy and get a divorce, whatever, but stop being a jerkass to your wife.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:21 PM on December 24 [99 favorites]
Frankly I gotta give your wife props for putting up with this for 26 entire goddamn motherfucking years. She must love you so fucking much, do you get this? Can you even conceive of how much she must adore you to let you shit all over her special thing for long enough to conceive, birth, raise, and send a child to medical school? Holy fuck.
For this person who demonstrably loves you more than is strictly speaking necessary for any human, this person whose crime is literally "trying to do a joy and a generosity in a big way," you can do absolutely nothing whatsoever? I don't buy it. If this was Dear Abby the commenters would all be calling FAKE LETTER, NOBODY IS LIKE THIS IN REAL LIFE.
Harsh? Yeah, I'm harsh. Do you know how goddamn hard it is to be a woman in this fucking world? Do you know how little there is to give us light in the darkness? Do you know how much pressure is on us to create literal magic for the people around us at all times, to be a sprinkling of nonstop fucking fairy dust on all of you poor sulky middle-aged boys and also the actual children?
No I'm not saying "suck it up and fake it for her sake." I'm saying literally actually learn to see what she is and what she is doing and why you should love her for it for real until you DO LOVE HER AND IT.
Or just go to fucking therapy and get a divorce, whatever, but stop being a jerkass to your wife.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:21 PM on December 24 [99 favorites]
And assuming OP is male-identified...there's a burden and expectation that women take the lead and do most if not all of the work when it comes to holidays and celebrations. If you really aren't doing anything, I can see where the resentment comes from, if you are opting out of everything Christmas related because of the gift-giving aspect.
posted by girlmightlive at 2:23 PM on December 24 [14 favorites]
posted by girlmightlive at 2:23 PM on December 24 [14 favorites]
Stellaluna mentioned something upthread -- the societal expectations surrounding holidays and a wife and mother's roles as the keeper of traditions.
Does your spouse have internalized expectations about being the Christmas cheerleader?
Is she baking her grandmother's cookies, and displaying her grandchildren's diy tree ornaments?
Is she trying to outdo the neighbors on the amount of Christmas lights and displays? Did the decorating start in October?
Is she stressed out about getting gifts mailed in time to all the family and friends, hers and yours?
Is she exchanging Christmas cards with people she hasn't seen in decades?
Is there a cultural expectation about the holidays in your spouse's family?
Are there traditional roles for wives, mothers and daughters? Is she concerned about being judged if she does things differently?
Is she worried that family traditions will die with her?
Or is society putting external expectations on your spouse?
Who volunteers for the celebrations at the local house of worship? Flower arrangements, thank you cards and gifts for volunteers, dealing with the holiday displays -- someone has to do that.
Who volunteers at school for the holidays? PTA fundraisers, teacher appreciation events, classroom parties -- someone has to do that.
The list goes on, and often it is women who are expected to shoulder the responsibility for making the season memorable.
And if not these women, then who will do it?
There is joy in a job well done. There is often praise and satisfaction. But it's a lot of hard work. Keeping up with the holiday chaos can take a heavy toll, particularly if others rely on you too heavily.
Maybe your spouse could use a break from all the unrelenting Christmas cheer. Maybe you could give her a hug, and a hand, and a better sense of peace and priorities next year.
posted by TrishaU at 2:54 PM on December 24 [12 favorites]
Does your spouse have internalized expectations about being the Christmas cheerleader?
Is she baking her grandmother's cookies, and displaying her grandchildren's diy tree ornaments?
Is she trying to outdo the neighbors on the amount of Christmas lights and displays? Did the decorating start in October?
Is she stressed out about getting gifts mailed in time to all the family and friends, hers and yours?
Is she exchanging Christmas cards with people she hasn't seen in decades?
Is there a cultural expectation about the holidays in your spouse's family?
Are there traditional roles for wives, mothers and daughters? Is she concerned about being judged if she does things differently?
Is she worried that family traditions will die with her?
Or is society putting external expectations on your spouse?
Who volunteers for the celebrations at the local house of worship? Flower arrangements, thank you cards and gifts for volunteers, dealing with the holiday displays -- someone has to do that.
Who volunteers at school for the holidays? PTA fundraisers, teacher appreciation events, classroom parties -- someone has to do that.
The list goes on, and often it is women who are expected to shoulder the responsibility for making the season memorable.
And if not these women, then who will do it?
There is joy in a job well done. There is often praise and satisfaction. But it's a lot of hard work. Keeping up with the holiday chaos can take a heavy toll, particularly if others rely on you too heavily.
Maybe your spouse could use a break from all the unrelenting Christmas cheer. Maybe you could give her a hug, and a hand, and a better sense of peace and priorities next year.
posted by TrishaU at 2:54 PM on December 24 [12 favorites]
So, I'm not Christian (but from a Christian-leaning family, my parents just never baptized me and also pursued multiple religions; I was a Jehovah's Witness kid (they don't baptize kids) for three years!) I was raped for over half the Christmases in my life, with religious overtones to it. Fun times!
I am not a big Christmas fan...sort of, read on. A Tale Of Christmases.
1. In the late 90s I spent my Christmas Days delivering Meals on Wheels.
This is my #1 suggestion to you - find something to do around Christmas that is meaningful to you and puts you among people who have significantly less than you, and if possible, do it together with your wife. I promise you magic...gratitude. I have delivered a meal to a senior whose house was literally crumbling overhead, debris down the stairs, who was living in a living room with a propane heater and a commode. I have delivered a meal to a new immigrant who was living in an empty apartment with no electricity huddled on the floor under newspapers and coats. I have delivered a meal to a man who still owned a perfectly good house, but cried for 15 minutes because we were the first people he'd spoken to in a week.
Christmas is not about stuff. It is about caring for each other. Lots of families miss the mark on that, but if you look really up close, you can see they are trying.
2. The year I pregnant with my daughter, we were supposed to go to family in Ottawa because my niece and nephews - one of whom is the nephew in my comment history, who is here now - had moved there and so yay, kids.
We had some presents in the car. No decorations. I got really sick, a cold and bronchitis, and I couldn't take much for it and I was miserable. My husband snuck out to a drugstore at like 10 pm Christmas Eve and he bought snacks and lights and stockings and ornaments and when I woke up, we had our own private Christmas. I swear to god, I had never, my entire childhood, ever felt so cared for. And I was not a fan! But my husband was, and he brought it. I did not chide him for spending money or buying ornaments I didn't want to own (I didn't, we didn't have a tree.)
I read his message, which was: I love you, I'm sorry you're sick and carrying our child is hard. It was absolutely fucking magical. I imagined all that love for our daughter. A few months later, in March, she was born, lived and died.
3. That year, we sold our house and closed Dec 23; moved almost all our belongings into storage in an ice storm. On Christmas Eve we put everything I actually cared about - 3 cats, 2 laptops, my husband - in a Honda Civic and moved to Ottawa. On Christmas Day we couldn't handle family. We ate in the Elgin St. Diner, with the other people without home-cooked meals. No particular events there but it was friendly. I was so mad at my husband and at the world; he had taken the Ottawa job without asking me; he hadn't gotten me a present. I looked at him and realized how much he was suffering. We ate together. We came back to the apartment and I threw up, just capping the day.
Turns out I was pregnant with my eldest son, who is 19 and wrapping presents right now.
4. When my son was 3 he was in a Montessori. I was trying to decide, as 3 is where they are starting to get aware of things, if we were going to put up a Christmas tree and "do Christmas and Santa" or not. We had delayed the question the two years prior.
So I go to pick him up and he informs me happily that Santa is going to come to our house and give presents. Oh my god, I was so mad at the assumption of Christianity. "Who told you that??!!" I demanded. "Ms. Urooj" he told me - a hijab and niqab wearing Muslim staff member. I just laughed and caved in. We did a tree, we said Santa was coming.
Christmas morning, we have the stocking and the primo Thomas the Tank Engine train set out. My son comes out, looks around, goes around the house looking for someone, and then comes and says "Where's Santa?" Well, he came and left you presents, my husband says. "But where is he?"
My husband explains Santa leaves presents in the night and then leaves.
My son cries for 30 minutes, inconsolable. He didn't want the presents. He wanted Santa to come to our house and play with him.
For the next three years we all wake up and play together for several hours rather than open gifts.
5. I am still not really a Christmas fan. I do the baking and the gifts (within agreed-on budgets, which my husband then exceeds, and I actually budget for his excess ahahaha), out of love, and we have developed traditions, and then I zone out and watch movies and Boxing Day we only eat things that come in boxes.
This year, Christmas is happening here but it is a bit fraught, in part because we have a very wounded soldier with a mental illness living with us. I kind of freaked out last weekend around my kids, before we got in the car to go somewhere. In the car, I told them "Christmas is hard for me sometimes, because growing up, we went to [my relative's] and he did some not nice stuff to me. I haven't thought about that as much in years and I love our family celebrations. But I might be a bit emotional and it's not at you."
And maybe it was wrong to lay it on them - they are 13 and 19 - like that. But we're family.
Family has each other's backs, and this year I kind of let them know that my back is vulnerable.
***
What I'm trying to say here is...
none of those Christmas experiences were about anything but the people in them.
You are missing out on all the things you could be doing OR not doing to create joy and happiness in your life during the darkest days of winter (in this hemisphere anyway.) You could be creating different traditions, or choosing to indulge your wife in hers. You could be making your family stronger.
Why are you so passive? Why are you blaming her for the pressures and social conventions around your family? What would you like to do over the holidays? Why does her joy upset you so much?
My suggestion is - spend tonight making a list of 10 things you love about her, and 10 things you've seen her do right this year - moment you were just like wow, you are great - and 4 things you want to do together next year.
Tomorrow, read it to her.
Put a dinner date on your calendar for July, and talk about Christmas at that date, for Christmas 2025. Include a budget if that's a big issue. As stated above, I hope everyone will be there in good health.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:58 PM on December 24 [74 favorites]
I am not a big Christmas fan...sort of, read on. A Tale Of Christmases.
1. In the late 90s I spent my Christmas Days delivering Meals on Wheels.
This is my #1 suggestion to you - find something to do around Christmas that is meaningful to you and puts you among people who have significantly less than you, and if possible, do it together with your wife. I promise you magic...gratitude. I have delivered a meal to a senior whose house was literally crumbling overhead, debris down the stairs, who was living in a living room with a propane heater and a commode. I have delivered a meal to a new immigrant who was living in an empty apartment with no electricity huddled on the floor under newspapers and coats. I have delivered a meal to a man who still owned a perfectly good house, but cried for 15 minutes because we were the first people he'd spoken to in a week.
Christmas is not about stuff. It is about caring for each other. Lots of families miss the mark on that, but if you look really up close, you can see they are trying.
2. The year I pregnant with my daughter, we were supposed to go to family in Ottawa because my niece and nephews - one of whom is the nephew in my comment history, who is here now - had moved there and so yay, kids.
We had some presents in the car. No decorations. I got really sick, a cold and bronchitis, and I couldn't take much for it and I was miserable. My husband snuck out to a drugstore at like 10 pm Christmas Eve and he bought snacks and lights and stockings and ornaments and when I woke up, we had our own private Christmas. I swear to god, I had never, my entire childhood, ever felt so cared for. And I was not a fan! But my husband was, and he brought it. I did not chide him for spending money or buying ornaments I didn't want to own (I didn't, we didn't have a tree.)
I read his message, which was: I love you, I'm sorry you're sick and carrying our child is hard. It was absolutely fucking magical. I imagined all that love for our daughter. A few months later, in March, she was born, lived and died.
3. That year, we sold our house and closed Dec 23; moved almost all our belongings into storage in an ice storm. On Christmas Eve we put everything I actually cared about - 3 cats, 2 laptops, my husband - in a Honda Civic and moved to Ottawa. On Christmas Day we couldn't handle family. We ate in the Elgin St. Diner, with the other people without home-cooked meals. No particular events there but it was friendly. I was so mad at my husband and at the world; he had taken the Ottawa job without asking me; he hadn't gotten me a present. I looked at him and realized how much he was suffering. We ate together. We came back to the apartment and I threw up, just capping the day.
Turns out I was pregnant with my eldest son, who is 19 and wrapping presents right now.
4. When my son was 3 he was in a Montessori. I was trying to decide, as 3 is where they are starting to get aware of things, if we were going to put up a Christmas tree and "do Christmas and Santa" or not. We had delayed the question the two years prior.
So I go to pick him up and he informs me happily that Santa is going to come to our house and give presents. Oh my god, I was so mad at the assumption of Christianity. "Who told you that??!!" I demanded. "Ms. Urooj" he told me - a hijab and niqab wearing Muslim staff member. I just laughed and caved in. We did a tree, we said Santa was coming.
Christmas morning, we have the stocking and the primo Thomas the Tank Engine train set out. My son comes out, looks around, goes around the house looking for someone, and then comes and says "Where's Santa?" Well, he came and left you presents, my husband says. "But where is he?"
My husband explains Santa leaves presents in the night and then leaves.
My son cries for 30 minutes, inconsolable. He didn't want the presents. He wanted Santa to come to our house and play with him.
For the next three years we all wake up and play together for several hours rather than open gifts.
5. I am still not really a Christmas fan. I do the baking and the gifts (within agreed-on budgets, which my husband then exceeds, and I actually budget for his excess ahahaha), out of love, and we have developed traditions, and then I zone out and watch movies and Boxing Day we only eat things that come in boxes.
This year, Christmas is happening here but it is a bit fraught, in part because we have a very wounded soldier with a mental illness living with us. I kind of freaked out last weekend around my kids, before we got in the car to go somewhere. In the car, I told them "Christmas is hard for me sometimes, because growing up, we went to [my relative's] and he did some not nice stuff to me. I haven't thought about that as much in years and I love our family celebrations. But I might be a bit emotional and it's not at you."
And maybe it was wrong to lay it on them - they are 13 and 19 - like that. But we're family.
Family has each other's backs, and this year I kind of let them know that my back is vulnerable.
***
What I'm trying to say here is...
none of those Christmas experiences were about anything but the people in them.
You are missing out on all the things you could be doing OR not doing to create joy and happiness in your life during the darkest days of winter (in this hemisphere anyway.) You could be creating different traditions, or choosing to indulge your wife in hers. You could be making your family stronger.
Why are you so passive? Why are you blaming her for the pressures and social conventions around your family? What would you like to do over the holidays? Why does her joy upset you so much?
My suggestion is - spend tonight making a list of 10 things you love about her, and 10 things you've seen her do right this year - moment you were just like wow, you are great - and 4 things you want to do together next year.
Tomorrow, read it to her.
Put a dinner date on your calendar for July, and talk about Christmas at that date, for Christmas 2025. Include a budget if that's a big issue. As stated above, I hope everyone will be there in good health.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:58 PM on December 24 [74 favorites]
I am in a similar boat, in that I don't care for Xmas and don't like buying a lot of stuff but my partner is really into it. The compromise we arrived at organically is that we do it with lots of wrapped presents and stuff, but the presents are basically all stuff we would get anyway, like coffee and deodorant. She gets the ritual and spectacle of all the presents under/around our 18" tall tree and it makes her happy. I make ham and get cookies, which is good enough for me.
posted by snofoam at 3:15 PM on December 24 [9 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 3:15 PM on December 24 [9 favorites]
> “Fake it for one lousy day, you cad”, I’m open to any practical suggestions how.
This is actually a great ask. Any relationship has this kind of give and take, where you are "faking" just a few key things that you know are very important to your spouse, because you love that person more than whatever principle or habit or whatever else it is that prevents you from normally doing that thing.
Anyway, my solution would be:
-Reframe this day from "Christmas" to "Important Day Just Once A Year When I Give My Spouse A Few Excellent Gifts That She Will Really Enjoy And Use To Make Her Very Happy".
- Sit down with spouse l-o-n-g before Christmas, maybe about in September and explain to her that you know you've kind of been suck-y and Christmas in years past, you know she appreciates thoughtful gifts, and so you want to give her a few things this Christmas, budget around $X.
- Take about or brainstorm some ideas, or maybe she can make a list on her own that you can look at later. In our family we tend to keep online gift lists in different places, sort of a "Wish List" so you have maybe 10-15 different things down that your family can look at to either pick one of them or something similar or just be inspired by that list to think of something else they may like. So this could be online, a shared doc, a piece of paper on the refrigerator, whatever.
- Let her know that you want to surprise her. You're not just asking her to pick out her own gift, rather you want her help in stimulating your thinking so that YOU can choose the right gift. So you might choose something straight from her list but you also might choose some variation or something else you thought of. Part of the purpose of having this conversation early on, by the time Special Gift Day actually rolls around, wife has more or less forgotten your conversation and so, between that and the fact that she gave several suggestions plus you have come up with some of your own, she really is surprised by the gift. The is part of the purpose of this kind of gift-giving. If she has to pick out the thing and just tell you to buy it, she might as well just skip the middleman and buy the thing herself. But if she just gives you some general ideas and even some specifics to get you started, and then you do all the work of actually choosing the final gift(s), that is what we are shooting for.
- Then, and this is IMPORTANT!!!, you actually spend some time and effort figuring out what wife's gifts will be, and then finding, procuring, or making (or whatever) them. This is exactly where your principles some into play, because if you are against compulsive consumerism, throwaway culture, and all that, you're not just going to head down to Walmart and pick up some cheap plastic garbage that is going to be in the landfill in two months. You're going to actually research the thing, figure out what is the best value, something that can be used for a lifetime (or at least, for many many years), what is going to hold up over time, and all that. In short, what is going to be not only a nice gift that your wife will actually appreciate and enjoy but also a lasting, worthwhile purchase that will enhance your & her life for years to come.
- Or perhaps you spend time making or creating something for her
- Or - and this might be a great option given your anti-consumerist issues - you buy or get something consumable, like food, that you were going to buy and use anyway, but the gift is that you spend time, effort, and/or money obtaining a particularly special, delicious, unusual or exotic, or otherwise noteworthy version of the usual. This could be anything like a special dish, or candy, or dessert, or a meal at a certain special restaurant (but not just Denny's or whatever - some really special place that you have researched and that has something really unusual or unique and yeah it's going to cost you more than 20 bucks), or a show or theater or music tickets, some other special experience, and so on. Anything that you might have used or consumed or done in the normal course of life, but this is a special enhanced, better, more fun, more delicious, whatever, version of it because of the time & effort & research you have put into making it special. Clothes, shoes, even socks & such can fit into this category. Hobby gear or even just outdoor gear - coat, jacket, raincoat, rain/snow/work boots - a lot of that stuff takes a lot of research to find the really perfect thing that will last and be useful for years instead of in the trashcan after the first attempted use.
Anyway, as I see it, in this scenario you are both getting what you want: You are getting good practical items for your wife, and not wasting money, and not fueling mindless throwaway consumerism precisely because you are spending the time and research to obtain items of worth that spouse will be able to use for years to come, and which she would have had to purchase anyway (though your version is going to be a notch nicer and better), or which you were going to consume anyway (though, again, your version is a notch nicer/better) and at the same time wife gets a really nice thoughtful gift that shows her spouse is really invested in spending time and energy on her and her happiness.
posted by flug at 3:17 PM on December 24 [13 favorites]
This is actually a great ask. Any relationship has this kind of give and take, where you are "faking" just a few key things that you know are very important to your spouse, because you love that person more than whatever principle or habit or whatever else it is that prevents you from normally doing that thing.
Anyway, my solution would be:
-Reframe this day from "Christmas" to "Important Day Just Once A Year When I Give My Spouse A Few Excellent Gifts That She Will Really Enjoy And Use To Make Her Very Happy".
- Sit down with spouse l-o-n-g before Christmas, maybe about in September and explain to her that you know you've kind of been suck-y and Christmas in years past, you know she appreciates thoughtful gifts, and so you want to give her a few things this Christmas, budget around $X.
- Take about or brainstorm some ideas, or maybe she can make a list on her own that you can look at later. In our family we tend to keep online gift lists in different places, sort of a "Wish List" so you have maybe 10-15 different things down that your family can look at to either pick one of them or something similar or just be inspired by that list to think of something else they may like. So this could be online, a shared doc, a piece of paper on the refrigerator, whatever.
- Let her know that you want to surprise her. You're not just asking her to pick out her own gift, rather you want her help in stimulating your thinking so that YOU can choose the right gift. So you might choose something straight from her list but you also might choose some variation or something else you thought of. Part of the purpose of having this conversation early on, by the time Special Gift Day actually rolls around, wife has more or less forgotten your conversation and so, between that and the fact that she gave several suggestions plus you have come up with some of your own, she really is surprised by the gift. The is part of the purpose of this kind of gift-giving. If she has to pick out the thing and just tell you to buy it, she might as well just skip the middleman and buy the thing herself. But if she just gives you some general ideas and even some specifics to get you started, and then you do all the work of actually choosing the final gift(s), that is what we are shooting for.
- Then, and this is IMPORTANT!!!, you actually spend some time and effort figuring out what wife's gifts will be, and then finding, procuring, or making (or whatever) them. This is exactly where your principles some into play, because if you are against compulsive consumerism, throwaway culture, and all that, you're not just going to head down to Walmart and pick up some cheap plastic garbage that is going to be in the landfill in two months. You're going to actually research the thing, figure out what is the best value, something that can be used for a lifetime (or at least, for many many years), what is going to hold up over time, and all that. In short, what is going to be not only a nice gift that your wife will actually appreciate and enjoy but also a lasting, worthwhile purchase that will enhance your & her life for years to come.
- Or perhaps you spend time making or creating something for her
- Or - and this might be a great option given your anti-consumerist issues - you buy or get something consumable, like food, that you were going to buy and use anyway, but the gift is that you spend time, effort, and/or money obtaining a particularly special, delicious, unusual or exotic, or otherwise noteworthy version of the usual. This could be anything like a special dish, or candy, or dessert, or a meal at a certain special restaurant (but not just Denny's or whatever - some really special place that you have researched and that has something really unusual or unique and yeah it's going to cost you more than 20 bucks), or a show or theater or music tickets, some other special experience, and so on. Anything that you might have used or consumed or done in the normal course of life, but this is a special enhanced, better, more fun, more delicious, whatever, version of it because of the time & effort & research you have put into making it special. Clothes, shoes, even socks & such can fit into this category. Hobby gear or even just outdoor gear - coat, jacket, raincoat, rain/snow/work boots - a lot of that stuff takes a lot of research to find the really perfect thing that will last and be useful for years instead of in the trashcan after the first attempted use.
Anyway, as I see it, in this scenario you are both getting what you want: You are getting good practical items for your wife, and not wasting money, and not fueling mindless throwaway consumerism precisely because you are spending the time and research to obtain items of worth that spouse will be able to use for years to come, and which she would have had to purchase anyway (though your version is going to be a notch nicer and better), or which you were going to consume anyway (though, again, your version is a notch nicer/better) and at the same time wife gets a really nice thoughtful gift that shows her spouse is really invested in spending time and energy on her and her happiness.
posted by flug at 3:17 PM on December 24 [13 favorites]
I think it might help if you reframe it. When you are sitting there thinking about consumerism and commercial Christmas, it might help to think about ancient Rome.
Celebrations in December predate 'Christian hegemony' Christmas. 'Christmas' style celebrations have been a thing as long as people have been people. Look at Saturnalia, Yule etc. And it's not just the western world either; there is Dongzhi (Winter Arrival) Festival and way more.
My point being, it is a thing for there to be Winter Solstice celebrations for as long as we have had time to celebrate. Sure, capitalism has morphed Christmas into a machine, and it's easy for the average person to get sucked into that machine, but it's not really about that, at least to me. It's always been about being grateful to be alive and having the bounty of harvest and bringing joy to an otherwise pretty dreary/dark season. It's why it's been a thing all over the world.
So I'm not being facetious when I say 'think of the Romans' or any ancient peoples. Think about them with their togas and their wine, seven days of partying and gift-giving-- and as per the wiki: "The Neoplatonist philosopher Porphyry interpreted the freedom associated with Saturnalia as symbolizing the "freeing of souls into immortality". So free your soul and get a little Roman and a little party-y. Think about the excitement they must have had in an otherwise pretty terrible world, to have seven days of happiness and freedom (well, I mean, minus the sacrifice) sharing gag-gifts and having a banquet. Even then they would clutch at fleeting moments of happiness and collectively choose joy. It's the reason Christmas is such a thing, still.
Latch on to the things you like about Winter celebrations in general and reject the ones you don't. Figure out what you specifically don't like --if it's gifts, and it seems like it's gifts to me) then pick something else to enjoy. In Dongzhi, the celebration is banishment of the darkness as the days start to lengthen again.
We like to play board games. Maybe you guys wanna watch film noir or eat a nice meal or whatever.
As others have said you don't need to buy into the gift giving if that's not your love language; but I do think you should make an effort with your wife, since it's hers. Why do you refuse to speak her love language? Do you guys never buy anything? You can buy things she knows she needs and just wrap them up and bam, there's a compromise. I personally got sick of really average gifts from my family and just have a wishlist of things I want/need. Maybe she can do one too? It has enough items on it that I'm surprised on Christmas day. I think that if you showed more effort and less passivity she may possibly buy less stuff, also. Maybe she matches your passive-aggressiveness with her own, and buys even more? You need to have a talk about this. If you think her spending is harmful or out of control and/or you can't afford it, then you need to have a talk about that and maybe work on a compromise/budget.
If you can comfortably afford it, well, it's stuff that exists anyway and does it matter if she has it or someone else? You can't take the items when you go, but you can't take money, either. If you are worried it is cheap or junky dollar store or mass manufactured stuff from China, then maybe buy good, local stuff that will last a long time and will have more meaning to you both. If you think you accumulate too much stuff, then why not make a tradition just before Christmas to go through last-years impulse buys and donate them and/or volunteer or even buy things other people need and want instead.
My mother was poor growing up, and my grandmother worked as a cleaner for an American diplomat. One year, the American family invited all their employees over at Christmas, including their children. For my mother, the big tree with presents and lights and dozens of people all happy and celebrating Christmas cemented Christmas as a magical time for her, and she worked extremely hard to bring her kids that magic as well. And it worked, because Christmas is a pretty positive time for me, and now that she is old, I work hard to make it special in her stead. And I know I bring joy because my nephew is coming of age and he's the one in the family that is taking up the mantle and makes the extra effort, because he's associated such positivity with it. He was over earlier today and it really warmed my heart to see him happily donning his Xmas hat and playing Santa for everyone. He literally said that at his mother's place with her partner, they don't 'do anything' so he's taken it upon himself to 'be me' when he's at his mom's because its 'too sad otherwise.' He puts the tree up himself-- his mother has always been very 'meh' about Christmas.
The sending and the opening of gift after gift that no one asked for or wants just sickens me.
People do want though. Just because they don't ask doesn't mean they don't want. Your wife wants. My nephew wants. That my Ex SIL doesn't do a tree and gifts didn't mean my nephew didn't want those things. He just wouldn't say anything to her about it (until he got old enough to buy presents himself and put the tree up himself). You're only speaking for yourself here. Don't make the mistake of speaking for the people around you.
You don't mention if you have kids and if they spend Christmas with you but if you are all buh-humbug with them consider that you have made their Christmas a negative experience also. Hopefully it's not too late to change your narrative about it--and you totally can-- but you need to want to change. Good luck.
posted by Dimes at 3:46 PM on December 24 [17 favorites]
Celebrations in December predate 'Christian hegemony' Christmas. 'Christmas' style celebrations have been a thing as long as people have been people. Look at Saturnalia, Yule etc. And it's not just the western world either; there is Dongzhi (Winter Arrival) Festival and way more.
My point being, it is a thing for there to be Winter Solstice celebrations for as long as we have had time to celebrate. Sure, capitalism has morphed Christmas into a machine, and it's easy for the average person to get sucked into that machine, but it's not really about that, at least to me. It's always been about being grateful to be alive and having the bounty of harvest and bringing joy to an otherwise pretty dreary/dark season. It's why it's been a thing all over the world.
So I'm not being facetious when I say 'think of the Romans' or any ancient peoples. Think about them with their togas and their wine, seven days of partying and gift-giving-- and as per the wiki: "The Neoplatonist philosopher Porphyry interpreted the freedom associated with Saturnalia as symbolizing the "freeing of souls into immortality". So free your soul and get a little Roman and a little party-y. Think about the excitement they must have had in an otherwise pretty terrible world, to have seven days of happiness and freedom (well, I mean, minus the sacrifice) sharing gag-gifts and having a banquet. Even then they would clutch at fleeting moments of happiness and collectively choose joy. It's the reason Christmas is such a thing, still.
Latch on to the things you like about Winter celebrations in general and reject the ones you don't. Figure out what you specifically don't like --if it's gifts, and it seems like it's gifts to me) then pick something else to enjoy. In Dongzhi, the celebration is banishment of the darkness as the days start to lengthen again.
We like to play board games. Maybe you guys wanna watch film noir or eat a nice meal or whatever.
As others have said you don't need to buy into the gift giving if that's not your love language; but I do think you should make an effort with your wife, since it's hers. Why do you refuse to speak her love language? Do you guys never buy anything? You can buy things she knows she needs and just wrap them up and bam, there's a compromise. I personally got sick of really average gifts from my family and just have a wishlist of things I want/need. Maybe she can do one too? It has enough items on it that I'm surprised on Christmas day. I think that if you showed more effort and less passivity she may possibly buy less stuff, also. Maybe she matches your passive-aggressiveness with her own, and buys even more? You need to have a talk about this. If you think her spending is harmful or out of control and/or you can't afford it, then you need to have a talk about that and maybe work on a compromise/budget.
If you can comfortably afford it, well, it's stuff that exists anyway and does it matter if she has it or someone else? You can't take the items when you go, but you can't take money, either. If you are worried it is cheap or junky dollar store or mass manufactured stuff from China, then maybe buy good, local stuff that will last a long time and will have more meaning to you both. If you think you accumulate too much stuff, then why not make a tradition just before Christmas to go through last-years impulse buys and donate them and/or volunteer or even buy things other people need and want instead.
My mother was poor growing up, and my grandmother worked as a cleaner for an American diplomat. One year, the American family invited all their employees over at Christmas, including their children. For my mother, the big tree with presents and lights and dozens of people all happy and celebrating Christmas cemented Christmas as a magical time for her, and she worked extremely hard to bring her kids that magic as well. And it worked, because Christmas is a pretty positive time for me, and now that she is old, I work hard to make it special in her stead. And I know I bring joy because my nephew is coming of age and he's the one in the family that is taking up the mantle and makes the extra effort, because he's associated such positivity with it. He was over earlier today and it really warmed my heart to see him happily donning his Xmas hat and playing Santa for everyone. He literally said that at his mother's place with her partner, they don't 'do anything' so he's taken it upon himself to 'be me' when he's at his mom's because its 'too sad otherwise.' He puts the tree up himself-- his mother has always been very 'meh' about Christmas.
The sending and the opening of gift after gift that no one asked for or wants just sickens me.
People do want though. Just because they don't ask doesn't mean they don't want. Your wife wants. My nephew wants. That my Ex SIL doesn't do a tree and gifts didn't mean my nephew didn't want those things. He just wouldn't say anything to her about it (until he got old enough to buy presents himself and put the tree up himself). You're only speaking for yourself here. Don't make the mistake of speaking for the people around you.
You don't mention if you have kids and if they spend Christmas with you but if you are all buh-humbug with them consider that you have made their Christmas a negative experience also. Hopefully it's not too late to change your narrative about it--and you totally can-- but you need to want to change. Good luck.
posted by Dimes at 3:46 PM on December 24 [17 favorites]
Is she spendy in general, or is this a once a year phenomenon? Is it yours,hers or our money,? I have long looked on the gift giving as absurd. Please not another scented candle! Would she be willing to do something you enjoy at Christmas? .maybe you enjoy religious services or perhaps spending the day at a homeless shelter helping dish out food? Is she willing to bend a bit?
posted by Czjewel at 4:12 PM on December 24
posted by Czjewel at 4:12 PM on December 24
This is deeper than one day, holiday or season. You have feelings about her compulsive consumerism, you have baggage about gift exchange that leaves you acting like a bad partner. I think it’s worth working through in a way that can make you both happy or at least makes you both feel loved and cared for. But it might have to be a deeper conversation, maybe one facilitated by a counselor of some kind.
I’m with you, the gifts stress me out. But I have to make a child’s life feel magical so I have to find a middle ground. I think you can find it but you might have to have some uncomfortable and vulnerable conversations.
posted by vunder at 4:12 PM on December 24 [1 favorite]
I’m with you, the gifts stress me out. But I have to make a child’s life feel magical so I have to find a middle ground. I think you can find it but you might have to have some uncomfortable and vulnerable conversations.
posted by vunder at 4:12 PM on December 24 [1 favorite]
Re: How to fake it:
I celebrate yule, which is basically exactly like Christmas, but without all the Jesus stuff. Feasting, gift giving, trees, mistletoe. Yule! When people wish me a merry Christmas, I say "yuletide greetings!" and then I wish I had thrown devil horns and said "Hail Santa!"
Also, there are three big Christmas meals: Dinner Christmas Eve, breakfast on Christmas day, and Christmas dinner. Depending on how intensely into Christmas people are, they may skip one or more of those (we skip breakfast, and it causes mild fights in my family), and most people also have family traditions surrounding those meals. It is a giant pain in the ass for everyone concerned, though one hopes it brings them joy. Here's the thing: because it is difficult, you can probably take over one of those meals or at least a dish at those meals (provided you negotiate it beforehand, like in September). And then you can and should cook whatever you want, tradition be damned. Make the thing you are most enthusiastic about. You'll be happy, and you'll get credit for participating in Christmas, and you'll lessen the workload for others.
posted by surlyben at 4:16 PM on December 24 [4 favorites]
I celebrate yule, which is basically exactly like Christmas, but without all the Jesus stuff. Feasting, gift giving, trees, mistletoe. Yule! When people wish me a merry Christmas, I say "yuletide greetings!" and then I wish I had thrown devil horns and said "Hail Santa!"
Also, there are three big Christmas meals: Dinner Christmas Eve, breakfast on Christmas day, and Christmas dinner. Depending on how intensely into Christmas people are, they may skip one or more of those (we skip breakfast, and it causes mild fights in my family), and most people also have family traditions surrounding those meals. It is a giant pain in the ass for everyone concerned, though one hopes it brings them joy. Here's the thing: because it is difficult, you can probably take over one of those meals or at least a dish at those meals (provided you negotiate it beforehand, like in September). And then you can and should cook whatever you want, tradition be damned. Make the thing you are most enthusiastic about. You'll be happy, and you'll get credit for participating in Christmas, and you'll lessen the workload for others.
posted by surlyben at 4:16 PM on December 24 [4 favorites]
It sure feels like this is something best dealt with in January, not December.
If you good-faith want this situation to be better, you have to dump the passive-aggressive behavior. It's embarrassing. Say, "Hey, can we sit down next weekend and look at the budget? I have some ideas."
Set a time, get some snacks, prepare a spreadsheet. It sounds like what you're actually mad about is her spending all year, you just punish her for it at Christmas and that's definitely not going to make her anxiety-spend more at a time she's trying to "love".
(Are you sure you like this person? It doesn't seem like you like this person.)
I'd recommend trying to find the least-intrusive spending analysis app and pull a couple years' worth of monthly categorical spending, so you can look at a category level and say "look, I just feel like we're overspending on X and Y, and I'm realizing I'm not communicating my concerns fairly and instead it always boils over at Christmas and I'm not proud of the way I'm acting. I'm not trying to take all your fun away, I'm just asking if we can together come up with strategies to decrease some of This spending so we can start putting more in That savings (or paying down the mortgage or whatever you think your priority is but are open to hearing what her savings/debt priority of choice might be). And I'd like to propose that we consider a Christmas Reset this year, make the whole year more of an experiment in Experiences Over Things, and maybe go do something ridiculously Christmassy on a planned budget?"
People who spend (to whatever extent) indiscriminately are often doing it from some kind of anxiety, usually dopamine-driven but sometimes just flat-out fear-driven. For people like us, budgeting is really necessary because there's often a habit of just not looking directly at our spending and just hoping the money doesn't run out. TRY not to make this a punitive situation, and if y'all can afford it try to make a dopamine fund specifically for her to do what she wants and no lip from you as long as the purpose-created checking account* doesn't start sucking funds out of another account.
This is also going to mean you should be opting in to closer discussion of what does get bought for joint purposes. I've had a partner that - because of childhood/family shit - didn't want to ever tell me no so abdicated from decision-making on any household expenditures less than property or vehicles, and it would have helped if more things were discussable.
It seems like the damage is done for this year already, and you played a part in the problem because you wouldn't say anything useful, so maybe dismount off your grudge horse and go watch a silly holiday movie with this person you allegedly like.
*Throughout the years, we've ended up with 4 total checking accounts at one bank and if it costs us anything extra it is exceptionally minor, this shouldn't be a huge inconvenience to do. And it's been real useful in a couple of situations where data breaches temporarily made one account too hot to use. We've had "his - hers - ours" accounts from the start anyway, with the general understanding that whatever trickles down into the his and hers accounts after the other disbursements are made is ours to do with as we see fit. We ended up with two Ours accounts, one for all the autopays and then one for deliberate spending, and it's that account that generally gets discretionary purchases budgeted into it.
posted by Lyn Never at 4:31 PM on December 24 [8 favorites]
If you good-faith want this situation to be better, you have to dump the passive-aggressive behavior. It's embarrassing. Say, "Hey, can we sit down next weekend and look at the budget? I have some ideas."
Set a time, get some snacks, prepare a spreadsheet. It sounds like what you're actually mad about is her spending all year, you just punish her for it at Christmas and that's definitely not going to make her anxiety-spend more at a time she's trying to "love".
(Are you sure you like this person? It doesn't seem like you like this person.)
I'd recommend trying to find the least-intrusive spending analysis app and pull a couple years' worth of monthly categorical spending, so you can look at a category level and say "look, I just feel like we're overspending on X and Y, and I'm realizing I'm not communicating my concerns fairly and instead it always boils over at Christmas and I'm not proud of the way I'm acting. I'm not trying to take all your fun away, I'm just asking if we can together come up with strategies to decrease some of This spending so we can start putting more in That savings (or paying down the mortgage or whatever you think your priority is but are open to hearing what her savings/debt priority of choice might be). And I'd like to propose that we consider a Christmas Reset this year, make the whole year more of an experiment in Experiences Over Things, and maybe go do something ridiculously Christmassy on a planned budget?"
People who spend (to whatever extent) indiscriminately are often doing it from some kind of anxiety, usually dopamine-driven but sometimes just flat-out fear-driven. For people like us, budgeting is really necessary because there's often a habit of just not looking directly at our spending and just hoping the money doesn't run out. TRY not to make this a punitive situation, and if y'all can afford it try to make a dopamine fund specifically for her to do what she wants and no lip from you as long as the purpose-created checking account* doesn't start sucking funds out of another account.
This is also going to mean you should be opting in to closer discussion of what does get bought for joint purposes. I've had a partner that - because of childhood/family shit - didn't want to ever tell me no so abdicated from decision-making on any household expenditures less than property or vehicles, and it would have helped if more things were discussable.
It seems like the damage is done for this year already, and you played a part in the problem because you wouldn't say anything useful, so maybe dismount off your grudge horse and go watch a silly holiday movie with this person you allegedly like.
*Throughout the years, we've ended up with 4 total checking accounts at one bank and if it costs us anything extra it is exceptionally minor, this shouldn't be a huge inconvenience to do. And it's been real useful in a couple of situations where data breaches temporarily made one account too hot to use. We've had "his - hers - ours" accounts from the start anyway, with the general understanding that whatever trickles down into the his and hers accounts after the other disbursements are made is ours to do with as we see fit. We ended up with two Ours accounts, one for all the autopays and then one for deliberate spending, and it's that account that generally gets discretionary purchases budgeted into it.
posted by Lyn Never at 4:31 PM on December 24 [8 favorites]
even more compulsive consumerism than she exhibits the rest of the year
sounds like there might be something more than Christmas lurking in the background of this question?
posted by atoxyl at 4:59 PM on December 24 [10 favorites]
sounds like there might be something more than Christmas lurking in the background of this question?
posted by atoxyl at 4:59 PM on December 24 [10 favorites]
I had a partner who I would fight with a bit about gifts because I was the sole breadwinner for much of our time together and she liked to buy nicer, more expensive things for her friends and family than I ever would. But that was straightforwardly about money - I respected where she was coming from with the gifts, the gifts were really thoughtful! It was a positive trait, just occasionally taken to an extent that I wasn’t comfortable with.
I don’t feel like I’m getting a clear picture of what the fight is really about for you, or how it fits in the context of your relationship.
posted by atoxyl at 5:26 PM on December 24
I don’t feel like I’m getting a clear picture of what the fight is really about for you, or how it fits in the context of your relationship.
posted by atoxyl at 5:26 PM on December 24
Response by poster: PM Update:
I got her flowers and and a card in which I wrote a small heartfelt poem about how familiarity can make me overlook how special she is.
She forgave me.
Told you she was a wonderful woman.
posted by Lemkin at 5:36 PM on December 24 [43 favorites]
I got her flowers and and a card in which I wrote a small heartfelt poem about how familiarity can make me overlook how special she is.
She forgave me.
Told you she was a wonderful woman.
posted by Lemkin at 5:36 PM on December 24 [43 favorites]
That’s lovely. I’m glad you were open to advice here and that you were both able to find your way back together today.
It’s very easy for most of us to empathize with your wife. I was taken aback by the intensity of your language around spending. You mention childhood factors. It sounds like money is a very emotional subject for you. I’m close to someone like that, he was born during the Depression and was a young boy during WWII. The importance of resources and risk of scarcity was existential for him, and everyone of his generation, obviously. But they all went through that collectively, like we did the pandemic. I think for a Gen Xer (presumed? Boomer?) to grow up worrying about resources with that intensity might be a lonelier or less acknowledged experience, and may be more or differently impactful.
Like others, I agree that finding ways to communicate in a way that gets you heard when you’re feeling overridden has to become important.
I know it’s hard to find effective counsellors, but I hope you’re able to find some time to think and talk through some of these issues with people who can relate, maybe do some reading too. I’ve seen some amazing discussions on MF on the first theme for example.
posted by cotton dress sock at 6:52 PM on December 24 [6 favorites]
It’s very easy for most of us to empathize with your wife. I was taken aback by the intensity of your language around spending. You mention childhood factors. It sounds like money is a very emotional subject for you. I’m close to someone like that, he was born during the Depression and was a young boy during WWII. The importance of resources and risk of scarcity was existential for him, and everyone of his generation, obviously. But they all went through that collectively, like we did the pandemic. I think for a Gen Xer (presumed? Boomer?) to grow up worrying about resources with that intensity might be a lonelier or less acknowledged experience, and may be more or differently impactful.
Like others, I agree that finding ways to communicate in a way that gets you heard when you’re feeling overridden has to become important.
I know it’s hard to find effective counsellors, but I hope you’re able to find some time to think and talk through some of these issues with people who can relate, maybe do some reading too. I’ve seen some amazing discussions on MF on the first theme for example.
posted by cotton dress sock at 6:52 PM on December 24 [6 favorites]
What is your question
posted by Sebmojo at 8:10 PM on December 24 [1 favorite]
posted by Sebmojo at 8:10 PM on December 24 [1 favorite]
And remember friends, if you celebrate Xmas as a non-xtian, you are supporting the xtian hegemony and all the evil they do!
my jewish ass will not be made to feel one SINGLE ounce of guilt for helping three foster kids celebrate tomorrow, thanks.
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 8:35 PM on December 24 [53 favorites]
my jewish ass will not be made to feel one SINGLE ounce of guilt for helping three foster kids celebrate tomorrow, thanks.
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 8:35 PM on December 24 [53 favorites]
I'm glad you resolved things with a poem, because reading this entire thread kept making me think of the Gottmans and contempt. If you have so much hate for Christmas YOU CANNOT STOMACH ANYTHING FOR A SECOND and can't stop having diarrhea on her yum, the best thing you can do is move the hell out for the month of December if that's the only way to stop doing that.
Beyond that, there's plenty of good suggestions here for next year. I hope you take a path of less resistance and yuck-yumming.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:37 PM on December 24 [6 favorites]
Beyond that, there's plenty of good suggestions here for next year. I hope you take a path of less resistance and yuck-yumming.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:37 PM on December 24 [6 favorites]
I broke up with my long-term partner last year in large part because he kept shitting all over Christmas. Everyone has their limit and I reached mine. I ferociously endorse every word of this comment.
posted by HotToddy at 8:38 PM on December 24 [12 favorites]
posted by HotToddy at 8:38 PM on December 24 [12 favorites]
Cheesy as it sounds, you have to open yourself to the Christmas spirit.
Of giving, of acknowledging others, of spreading cheer in all attempts. It’s the time to show others they are special to you even if the gift misses the mark.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 8:41 PM on December 24 [2 favorites]
Of giving, of acknowledging others, of spreading cheer in all attempts. It’s the time to show others they are special to you even if the gift misses the mark.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 8:41 PM on December 24 [2 favorites]
You don't have to change the way you feel about Christmas, or gift-giving. But you do need to change the way you treat her. You should try to do something for her that she will appreciate. This doesn't invalidate your feelings about the holiday, it just means you're making a gesture that shows you love her even on a day where you disagree about so many core things.
(For years I gave my wife a bad time about Valentine's Day, because I felt it was a manufactured Hallmark holiday. But she liked it anyway! Eventually I gave up, tried to get her a nice gift on that day, and I've found since I got over myself, I actually enjoy it. Still hate Hallmark, but I love her.)
posted by Happydaz at 9:59 PM on December 24 [9 favorites]
(For years I gave my wife a bad time about Valentine's Day, because I felt it was a manufactured Hallmark holiday. But she liked it anyway! Eventually I gave up, tried to get her a nice gift on that day, and I've found since I got over myself, I actually enjoy it. Still hate Hallmark, but I love her.)
posted by Happydaz at 9:59 PM on December 24 [9 favorites]
Just show her you love her, and that you like seeing her happy, in a way that truly communicates it to her.
When you can't do what she asks, connect with the part of yourself that feels deep regret about that, and show that to her.
And figure out what kind of gifts do not offend you. A poem? That's a really nice gift. A hand-knitted hat? Homemade pickles? Do THAT, and perhaps do that WITH her.
posted by amtho at 10:43 PM on December 24 [3 favorites]
When you can't do what she asks, connect with the part of yourself that feels deep regret about that, and show that to her.
And figure out what kind of gifts do not offend you. A poem? That's a really nice gift. A hand-knitted hat? Homemade pickles? Do THAT, and perhaps do that WITH her.
posted by amtho at 10:43 PM on December 24 [3 favorites]
There's gotta be a compromise here where you each build your half of the bridge. I think recognizing a holiday built into the broad secular culture is a fair thing to expect in most cases (I say this as someone who hates Christmas), as is working toward building a version of the holiday that you can live with.
You don't get into your gift aversion, but I share it, and I want to ask the baseline MeFi question: have you addressed it in therapy at any point in your life?
Something about your question sticks out to me: I don't understand what you mean when you say she deserves better. Maybe expand on that a bit?
posted by kensington314 at 10:52 PM on December 24 [1 favorite]
You don't get into your gift aversion, but I share it, and I want to ask the baseline MeFi question: have you addressed it in therapy at any point in your life?
Something about your question sticks out to me: I don't understand what you mean when you say she deserves better. Maybe expand on that a bit?
posted by kensington314 at 10:52 PM on December 24 [1 favorite]
Hmm. How to break the cycle? I’d probably think about who’s watching my behaviour and how I want to be remembered.
I’m probably one of the younger members on MeFi. Here’s my perspective. If I had a father who hated Christmas and was passive-aggressive toward his wife — on actual Christmas Day — I would resent the hell out of him. On the one hand you’ve got the mother who buys gifts — hey, not everybody may love what they get, but at least she’s thinking of others and trying to create joy. Then there’s the surly dad who sits back and hasn’t done a damn thing for the day in 26 years. Because of his “principles”.
I’m not Christian (and I don’t support the “Christian hegemony” just because I celebrate public holidays, wtf lol is all I have to say to that … That is unless it is a troll — in which case “Merry Xmas and well-played”). I also agree that businesses get way too commercial about Christmas and I hate shopping.
But you know what I do love? Getting together with friends and family, making or choosing a small gift that they’ll love, and eating well. And I’m sure that’s the way your wife sees it too! Try and see it from her view!
posted by primavera_f at 11:24 PM on December 24 [18 favorites]
I’m probably one of the younger members on MeFi. Here’s my perspective. If I had a father who hated Christmas and was passive-aggressive toward his wife — on actual Christmas Day — I would resent the hell out of him. On the one hand you’ve got the mother who buys gifts — hey, not everybody may love what they get, but at least she’s thinking of others and trying to create joy. Then there’s the surly dad who sits back and hasn’t done a damn thing for the day in 26 years. Because of his “principles”.
I’m not Christian (and I don’t support the “Christian hegemony” just because I celebrate public holidays, wtf lol is all I have to say to that … That is unless it is a troll — in which case “Merry Xmas and well-played”). I also agree that businesses get way too commercial about Christmas and I hate shopping.
But you know what I do love? Getting together with friends and family, making or choosing a small gift that they’ll love, and eating well. And I’m sure that’s the way your wife sees it too! Try and see it from her view!
posted by primavera_f at 11:24 PM on December 24 [18 favorites]
I hate the aesthetic of Christmas. I hate the consumerism of Christmas. I hate the mandatory emotional lockstep of Christmas. I hate the religiosity of Christmas. I hate the idea that "Christmas" is a big bundle idea with 1000 specific tasks and standards and tropes and must equal supreme joy else you are being a villain.
So, a while back I looked at the awful deficit that the happening of Christmas took on my whole soul and then deconstructed it and leaned into what had value for me. I watch Singin in the Rain because even though it lacks Christmas tropes, it gives me a template for a mood I can identify with that is harmonious with how Christmas feels to other people. I like the idea of acknowledgement, gathering, and generosity toward loved ones as a charging ritual to prepare for the pointiest portion of Winter. So I like to make cookies. The smell and the effort and the sharing are all things I can enjoy. I find red and green to be overly aggressive and don't like storing tons and tons of STUFF to bring out for a matchy-matchy display with the standard of Christmas, but I'm actually happy to have some white string lights around in the darkest days of the year.
What I read into your question is something like your ideal is 0% Christmas and your wife's ideal is 100% Christmas and maybe the two of you can both soften on and deconstruct it a bit. Figure out where the meaning is and which aspects fulfill that meaning and lean into those. Make it your own recurring event that says specific things about making preparations for ungenerous weather. Being reminded of the people who matter and whom you matter to, acquiring useful tools if appropriate, making a sense of coziness more accessible for the Winter ahead within the home. There are useful, ancient, meaningful themes under all the commercial and performative hooplah that can be seized and cherished, especially if your wife is willing to do some of that stripping away with you.
posted by droomoord at 3:38 AM on December 25 [13 favorites]
So, a while back I looked at the awful deficit that the happening of Christmas took on my whole soul and then deconstructed it and leaned into what had value for me. I watch Singin in the Rain because even though it lacks Christmas tropes, it gives me a template for a mood I can identify with that is harmonious with how Christmas feels to other people. I like the idea of acknowledgement, gathering, and generosity toward loved ones as a charging ritual to prepare for the pointiest portion of Winter. So I like to make cookies. The smell and the effort and the sharing are all things I can enjoy. I find red and green to be overly aggressive and don't like storing tons and tons of STUFF to bring out for a matchy-matchy display with the standard of Christmas, but I'm actually happy to have some white string lights around in the darkest days of the year.
What I read into your question is something like your ideal is 0% Christmas and your wife's ideal is 100% Christmas and maybe the two of you can both soften on and deconstruct it a bit. Figure out where the meaning is and which aspects fulfill that meaning and lean into those. Make it your own recurring event that says specific things about making preparations for ungenerous weather. Being reminded of the people who matter and whom you matter to, acquiring useful tools if appropriate, making a sense of coziness more accessible for the Winter ahead within the home. There are useful, ancient, meaningful themes under all the commercial and performative hooplah that can be seized and cherished, especially if your wife is willing to do some of that stripping away with you.
posted by droomoord at 3:38 AM on December 25 [13 favorites]
Starting around October, keep a list of things you would like to own. Give it to her in early December so she can buy things you can use and would otherwise have bought. So she gets to give and you get to receive what you want.
Pay attention to what she says she wants and buy it. These are hints and are a normal part of making your partner feel listened to, and if they need gifts to feel this way, loved.
Use the time to do nice things with family and friends. Take on board that time enjoying yourself with people you like in your life is a good thing, even if you don't care that baby Jesus was born to die.
posted by biffa at 5:58 AM on December 25
Pay attention to what she says she wants and buy it. These are hints and are a normal part of making your partner feel listened to, and if they need gifts to feel this way, loved.
Use the time to do nice things with family and friends. Take on board that time enjoying yourself with people you like in your life is a good thing, even if you don't care that baby Jesus was born to die.
posted by biffa at 5:58 AM on December 25
Response by poster: Christmas Day update:
During the present opening, I focused on her happiness - remembering that we never know if this holiday will be our last together.
I also thought about fathers invited to their daughters’ tea parties. It’s not about whether he’s enjoying himself or whether the food is good.
Thank you for all the replies, including the more… bracing ones.
(Merry Christmas, you vicious bastards.)
posted by Lemkin at 6:35 AM on December 25 [49 favorites]
During the present opening, I focused on her happiness - remembering that we never know if this holiday will be our last together.
I also thought about fathers invited to their daughters’ tea parties. It’s not about whether he’s enjoying himself or whether the food is good.
Thank you for all the replies, including the more… bracing ones.
(Merry Christmas, you vicious bastards.)
posted by Lemkin at 6:35 AM on December 25 [49 favorites]
I’m glad you resolved it somewhat. I want to just upvote a little bit the ones up thread (ananci was one) who were also married to someone like this. I remember how awful my late husband was at family things and how unfair it had started to feel that his discomfort always seemed to end in me lowering my standards instead of him raising his. By the time he had whittled it down to my birthday and Hanukkah (and then STILL complained!) it really did feel hurtful that he couldn’t just suck it up for one day, as you put it, to do something which was so important to me.
posted by ficbot at 7:19 AM on December 25 [15 favorites]
posted by ficbot at 7:19 AM on December 25 [15 favorites]
Hey, this guy just won Christmas with about a $20 investment! It was fun to read that, because many years ago, I did almost the same thing on a much smaller scale, completely by accident. Visiting my parents for Christmas, I started counting the chickens in the house (decor, not actual egg-bearing). My mom had a kind of country / rustic / farm theme in the kitchen and dining room, and even though she wasn't specifically trying to collect chicken images ... she ended up with a lot of chickenness. And none of us knew how many there actually were! As soon as we thought we were done counting, we'd find another one in a floor mat or on a weather vane, etc., etc. Hidden in an egg timer. And so on. It was hilarious. We were counting chickens all day!
So a sense of fun and imagination, and just leaning in to being goofy and loving with your family is going to totally beat throwing money and grudging minimum participation at the problem. Unless you love having the problem more than solving the problem, which is sometimes the case. Being there and being happy to be with your wife and kids is a huge gift.
posted by taz at 7:37 AM on December 25 [8 favorites]
So a sense of fun and imagination, and just leaning in to being goofy and loving with your family is going to totally beat throwing money and grudging minimum participation at the problem. Unless you love having the problem more than solving the problem, which is sometimes the case. Being there and being happy to be with your wife and kids is a huge gift.
posted by taz at 7:37 AM on December 25 [8 favorites]
Comparing this to a father participating in his daughter's tea party is so infantilizing to your wife. The superior tone of your original question and all your updates is gross. I hope she can find some happiness eventually, one way or another.
posted by CheeseLouise at 7:47 AM on December 25 [25 favorites]
posted by CheeseLouise at 7:47 AM on December 25 [25 favorites]
Judging (!) by your comments, you often display an ascerbicism that could only spring from an active imagination. Apply your imagination to this question, your Blakean vision. As others have stated, get to the root of the why and overcome it for your sake and your partner's sake. You're both worth it. Lots of great ideas here, you could follow through on any number of them but if you're faking it it's hardly worth it.
Oh and advice for all of us here, and certainly the frequent flyers of MeTa: "If you'd rather be "right" than happy, "
posted by ginger.beef at 9:13 AM on December 25 [1 favorite]
Oh and advice for all of us here, and certainly the frequent flyers of MeTa: "If you'd rather be "right" than happy, "
posted by ginger.beef at 9:13 AM on December 25 [1 favorite]
Reading through this, I'm happy you seem that you're starting to 'get it' I can only hope so, if you truly love your wife. You are aware that each Christmas could be your last, and that's pretty powerful.
I'm 71. My husband used to buy a tree for the kids. He never participated in decorating, didn't give a damn about lights, singing carols, or wrapping. I always wanted to give the kids a book for Christmas, and there never was money for that when we were on a limited income. I gave it up. I used to give ornaments every year and stood fast with that as a tradition, and he always thought that was a waste of money. (I gave it up with the boys because they don't do trees. But the girls--daughters and g-kids--say they love them. I forgot to do them this year. :(
We never have a special dinner for us but we get together with the local kids and grandkids and he'll even cook pies and the turkey with them. He hasn't done anything to celebrate around the house for years. We haven't bought a tree for 30 years. He likes to buy presents for his favorite 2 kids, 3 of the grandkids, and his family of origin. The other 2 kids, the 2 grandkids in Albuquerque, and me are after thoughts, and I usually spring for the gifts for those 2 g-kids.
The only thing I did this year was drag up the little ceramic tree my youngest made as a kid. Didn't even bother to get a new light bulb to light it up. I almost feel it's just in the way and not as special as it used to be. Over the years I have wanted to go to midnight mass (for the pageantry, not the religion) to sing the local amateur Messiah or carols, see a play or a Nativity, go to the Botanical Gardens for the light display, drive to the hills and cut down a tree to decorate with cranberries and popcorn, serve dinner for the homeless, see a movie. There are other ways to celebrate.
I've given up, and I've lost myself. This is the guy that says he loves me. Sorry, marriage sucks, not completely, but yeah....
Celebrate with her. Do something. You don't have to spend money on stuff. Do other things.
posted by BlueHorse at 10:00 AM on December 25 [16 favorites]
I'm 71. My husband used to buy a tree for the kids. He never participated in decorating, didn't give a damn about lights, singing carols, or wrapping. I always wanted to give the kids a book for Christmas, and there never was money for that when we were on a limited income. I gave it up. I used to give ornaments every year and stood fast with that as a tradition, and he always thought that was a waste of money. (I gave it up with the boys because they don't do trees. But the girls--daughters and g-kids--say they love them. I forgot to do them this year. :(
We never have a special dinner for us but we get together with the local kids and grandkids and he'll even cook pies and the turkey with them. He hasn't done anything to celebrate around the house for years. We haven't bought a tree for 30 years. He likes to buy presents for his favorite 2 kids, 3 of the grandkids, and his family of origin. The other 2 kids, the 2 grandkids in Albuquerque, and me are after thoughts, and I usually spring for the gifts for those 2 g-kids.
The only thing I did this year was drag up the little ceramic tree my youngest made as a kid. Didn't even bother to get a new light bulb to light it up. I almost feel it's just in the way and not as special as it used to be. Over the years I have wanted to go to midnight mass (for the pageantry, not the religion) to sing the local amateur Messiah or carols, see a play or a Nativity, go to the Botanical Gardens for the light display, drive to the hills and cut down a tree to decorate with cranberries and popcorn, serve dinner for the homeless, see a movie. There are other ways to celebrate.
I've given up, and I've lost myself. This is the guy that says he loves me. Sorry, marriage sucks, not completely, but yeah....
Celebrate with her. Do something. You don't have to spend money on stuff. Do other things.
posted by BlueHorse at 10:00 AM on December 25 [16 favorites]
My granddad and my stepmom were the Yuletide elves of our family. They loved everything about the holidays, the decorations, the food, the gifts and just being together with as many of us as possible.
My granddad would always make a huge package for my grandmother, filled with boxes inside boxes like a babushka doll, with a little tiny, but very thoughtful gift in the last box. The fun wasn't about the final gift but about the huge, loving effort he made and the laughs when she was unpacking.
When they both died within a couple of years, it was as if our whole extended family lost its Christmas spirit. Not just us, but also all the cousins who'd come over for Boxing Day. My gran would give up on cooking and get drunk instead. My dad showed signs of clinical depression. We started doing alternative holidays, like traveling and very minimal Christmasses with no or few gifts, and they were actually very good holidays. But we missed the two so much, I guess our grinchiness was a grief thing.
Now when I've become a grandmother, I've decided I want my grandchildren to experience a bit of the magic I had as a child, where my aunt would craft decorations and silly hats, and one gran would make amazing savory food and the other gran amazing cookies. We'd all help the best we could. I realized it wasn't really about the consumerism, though of course the kids want everything, but about the togetherness. The whole family going for a good walk on Christmas Day to gain appetite. Everyone working together on the meals and the decorations. I still have a weird worm decoration my cousin made when he was three, now I want to engage my grandsons in similar endeavors. Thoughtful gifts in lavish wrappings rather than expensive gifts in the store's wrapping, like my granddad's gifts for gran. I'm really bad at wrapping presents, so that's a challenge.
It's hard work to change one's entire mindset, built over decades, and sometimes I fail dramatically, like that year everyone got a food poisoning because I didn't focus. This is the first year I feel I handled the gift thing right, for decades, and I almost cried when my youngest grandson said his was a good present. It hadn't cost me much, but I had spent time thinking about him and his interests.
posted by mumimor at 10:13 AM on December 25 [12 favorites]
My granddad would always make a huge package for my grandmother, filled with boxes inside boxes like a babushka doll, with a little tiny, but very thoughtful gift in the last box. The fun wasn't about the final gift but about the huge, loving effort he made and the laughs when she was unpacking.
When they both died within a couple of years, it was as if our whole extended family lost its Christmas spirit. Not just us, but also all the cousins who'd come over for Boxing Day. My gran would give up on cooking and get drunk instead. My dad showed signs of clinical depression. We started doing alternative holidays, like traveling and very minimal Christmasses with no or few gifts, and they were actually very good holidays. But we missed the two so much, I guess our grinchiness was a grief thing.
Now when I've become a grandmother, I've decided I want my grandchildren to experience a bit of the magic I had as a child, where my aunt would craft decorations and silly hats, and one gran would make amazing savory food and the other gran amazing cookies. We'd all help the best we could. I realized it wasn't really about the consumerism, though of course the kids want everything, but about the togetherness. The whole family going for a good walk on Christmas Day to gain appetite. Everyone working together on the meals and the decorations. I still have a weird worm decoration my cousin made when he was three, now I want to engage my grandsons in similar endeavors. Thoughtful gifts in lavish wrappings rather than expensive gifts in the store's wrapping, like my granddad's gifts for gran. I'm really bad at wrapping presents, so that's a challenge.
It's hard work to change one's entire mindset, built over decades, and sometimes I fail dramatically, like that year everyone got a food poisoning because I didn't focus. This is the first year I feel I handled the gift thing right, for decades, and I almost cried when my youngest grandson said his was a good present. It hadn't cost me much, but I had spent time thinking about him and his interests.
posted by mumimor at 10:13 AM on December 25 [12 favorites]
My partner grew up in a Jehovah’s Witness family, not celebrating holidays (he left the religion as a teen). He’s generally a pretty big atheist and not a huge fan of Christmas. I grew up celebrating Christmas, so we celebrate it together in our own way (we both think the consumerism is pretty terrible, but we also own small businesses that benefit from people buying gifts, so.)
Anyway, my partner has never made ME feel bad about my history of celebrating Christmas, despite his own feelings about it. He’s making us French toast right now. He gives me extremely thoughtful gifts. He appreciates how I make the house extra cozy this time of year. He’s able to hold his own feelings but also participate in a way that feels genuine, and makes my experience better.
So, I don’t know. The tea party comment shows a lack of respect. What else do you hate about your wife that you’re not telling us?
posted by sucre at 10:58 AM on December 25 [5 favorites]
Anyway, my partner has never made ME feel bad about my history of celebrating Christmas, despite his own feelings about it. He’s making us French toast right now. He gives me extremely thoughtful gifts. He appreciates how I make the house extra cozy this time of year. He’s able to hold his own feelings but also participate in a way that feels genuine, and makes my experience better.
So, I don’t know. The tea party comment shows a lack of respect. What else do you hate about your wife that you’re not telling us?
posted by sucre at 10:58 AM on December 25 [5 favorites]
Have you ever asked your wife, completely sincerely, what she loves about Christmas? And then really listened to what she says, and asked thoughtful follow up questions? If not, I think that would be a very good idea. Good luck to you.
posted by peperomia at 11:43 AM on December 25 [5 favorites]
posted by peperomia at 11:43 AM on December 25 [5 favorites]
I dunno. The tea party comment seems right on to me. You can create a positive experience for someone else without being excited about the experience yourself, simply for the love of the other person and the desire to see them happy. (I am assuming for the sake of charity that OP is not claiming to literally see his wife as a child, since it is in the nature of analogies to not be literally true in every detail — if they were, they'd just be descriptions.)
posted by Birds, snakes, and aeroplanes at 12:18 PM on December 25 [13 favorites]
posted by Birds, snakes, and aeroplanes at 12:18 PM on December 25 [13 favorites]
So as someone who HATES the whole gift giving thing I totally feel your pain. I still like Christmas but don't love the obligation and consumerism aspect of it. I do exchange gifts with my wife and she doesn't go nuts with gift giving. Where I run into issues is that every year my mother in law asks for a Christmas list from me and there's never anything I need or want. One year I said I didn't need anything and she didn't take it well and has held it over my head for years. I understand where she's coming from but I see no reason I have to play along at something I'm not into. People came shame you with all the "you need to compromise" BS but don't let it make you feel like you're in the wrong. I don't have a great answer for how you "fake it". My only suggestion would be to figure out if there's a day or activity that you really love that your wife isn't too keen on but you'd love her to participate in. Make a deal that she participates more for that and you'll participate more for Christmas. Not sure if that's really good or helpful advice but that's my thoughts.
posted by ljs30 at 1:38 PM on December 25
posted by ljs30 at 1:38 PM on December 25
Every year with your spouse (or any close friend) is another year to make the relationship stronger and more fulfilling to both. So you tried something new this year. That is super cool.
If thinking back on it you wanna try something else next year go for it. It can be collaborative with your spouse or just something you do on your own.
One of the great human experiences is navigating long term close relationships and letting yourself try new things and become a different person just as the other person will as well. Congrats on changing an old pattern a bit this year!
posted by alicebob at 1:48 PM on December 25 [4 favorites]
If thinking back on it you wanna try something else next year go for it. It can be collaborative with your spouse or just something you do on your own.
One of the great human experiences is navigating long term close relationships and letting yourself try new things and become a different person just as the other person will as well. Congrats on changing an old pattern a bit this year!
posted by alicebob at 1:48 PM on December 25 [4 favorites]
I'll add just one thought in addition to my previous long, rambling comment: Another gift you could offer your wife is simply to take responsibility for purchasing one major item for her. Maybe she even knows what the item is already: "I need new hiking boots - I need a new dishwasher - I need a new cell phone - I need a new laptop - etc etc etc."
If you dislike consumer culture so intensely, probably you are having a hard time understanding how much work it is to pick out and buy things - enough work just for yourself, and double that if it's for another person, because you have to understand what the other person wants, and then do all the work of shopping for and selecting the exact item.
Picking out really good, high-quality, long-lasting items for purchase is hard and it takes a lot of work - physical, mental, emotion, and just plain time. That is one reason your wife is so resentful of you when you just opt out of this. All the work then falls on her shoulders.
So the gift, in this case, would be basically acting as your wife's "super shopper" for this one particular item (or maybe 2-3 different items).
You first spend a little time talking with her about what the thing is, why she needs it, what the ideal item would be.
Then you go out and do all the research on this item. You read all the review of different options, compare features, watch youtube videos of people unboxing, using, reviewing, find all the brands available and all the models, then narrow down from that to the best candidates.
Then, after a bunch of hours of doing this, you go back to wife with your report. Here are the options, the price categories, what you will get or give up by going with option X, Y, & Z. Option Z costs more but might last 2x or 3x as long (or, maybe it won't), has these better features that might make it a better value (or doesn't) - all those things. Then you discuss, what are the tradeoffs, which way is she leaning based on this information.
You might have to go through one, two, three, or four rounds of this (hopefully not too many more than that!) before coming to a final decision.
Then you purchase the item and present it to wife on "Special Wife Gift Giving Day" on Dec. 25th.
If there is any problem, you handle all the grunt work of returns, exchanges, refunds, or whatever. You are like the personal assistant for a billionaire who just makes the exact thing the person wants appear for them with no work and no friction on their part.
The gift here is her just getting the best-choice item without having to do all the work involved to figure out what that is and then handle all the hassles of the transaction.
Again I feel like this is the type of solution that helps both you and your wife meet your needs. You are helping wife choose something that has real value and will be used over the long term, not just tossed in the trash or put aside in the back of the storage room. She is getting an (honestly) really amazing gift from you that shows you really care about her and are willing to go to some real work on her behalf.
posted by flug at 3:24 PM on December 25 [5 favorites]
If you dislike consumer culture so intensely, probably you are having a hard time understanding how much work it is to pick out and buy things - enough work just for yourself, and double that if it's for another person, because you have to understand what the other person wants, and then do all the work of shopping for and selecting the exact item.
Picking out really good, high-quality, long-lasting items for purchase is hard and it takes a lot of work - physical, mental, emotion, and just plain time. That is one reason your wife is so resentful of you when you just opt out of this. All the work then falls on her shoulders.
So the gift, in this case, would be basically acting as your wife's "super shopper" for this one particular item (or maybe 2-3 different items).
You first spend a little time talking with her about what the thing is, why she needs it, what the ideal item would be.
Then you go out and do all the research on this item. You read all the review of different options, compare features, watch youtube videos of people unboxing, using, reviewing, find all the brands available and all the models, then narrow down from that to the best candidates.
Then, after a bunch of hours of doing this, you go back to wife with your report. Here are the options, the price categories, what you will get or give up by going with option X, Y, & Z. Option Z costs more but might last 2x or 3x as long (or, maybe it won't), has these better features that might make it a better value (or doesn't) - all those things. Then you discuss, what are the tradeoffs, which way is she leaning based on this information.
You might have to go through one, two, three, or four rounds of this (hopefully not too many more than that!) before coming to a final decision.
Then you purchase the item and present it to wife on "Special Wife Gift Giving Day" on Dec. 25th.
If there is any problem, you handle all the grunt work of returns, exchanges, refunds, or whatever. You are like the personal assistant for a billionaire who just makes the exact thing the person wants appear for them with no work and no friction on their part.
The gift here is her just getting the best-choice item without having to do all the work involved to figure out what that is and then handle all the hassles of the transaction.
Again I feel like this is the type of solution that helps both you and your wife meet your needs. You are helping wife choose something that has real value and will be used over the long term, not just tossed in the trash or put aside in the back of the storage room. She is getting an (honestly) really amazing gift from you that shows you really care about her and are willing to go to some real work on her behalf.
posted by flug at 3:24 PM on December 25 [5 favorites]
Apologies if this is totally unhelpful but I also don’t like the forced consumerist bs aspects of Christmas and make up for it with family that loves the typical celebration in two ways. First off is that I will write a heartfelt card to accompany a donation to a cause the receiver cares about (ie a donation to a local food bank or Doctors Without Borders) or I will use this as a way to support a local business (salsa, textiles, soaps, fancy baked goods).
Like it or not we live in a capitalist system and this time of year is often a make or break time for many important causes. You could both support the greater AND support your wife without spending a ton or making much effort. If helping others altogether during Christmas is not an option for you I think you may want to seriously think about whether this is really about “consumerism” or whether this is just drawing some abstract moral line in the same for its own sake.
posted by forkisbetter at 6:06 PM on December 25 [3 favorites]
Like it or not we live in a capitalist system and this time of year is often a make or break time for many important causes. You could both support the greater AND support your wife without spending a ton or making much effort. If helping others altogether during Christmas is not an option for you I think you may want to seriously think about whether this is really about “consumerism” or whether this is just drawing some abstract moral line in the same for its own sake.
posted by forkisbetter at 6:06 PM on December 25 [3 favorites]
My partner feels similarly to you but isn’t passive aggressive to me about it. My feelings about Christmas are complicated—I dislike most of it but love love love the gift giving. Yet this is the part that my partner hates the most. The things that work for us:
1) I listen to them grouch/complain about Christmas without internalizing it as being about me and I validate how they feel
2) They don’t ever make snide comments about the stuff I’m doing for Christmas and they engage with genuine joy when I talk about how I’ve found the perfect gift or made something I’m really proud of (I hand make a lot of my gifts)
3) I handle the Christmas expectations from family; they hate being hounded for a Christmas list when they don’t even want stuff, so I just sit down and make one for them because I know them well enough to do that. Then they just have to glance it over and then send out to family. It both takes out the Christmas list stress and makes them feel like someone “gets them” when I can come up with good suggestions.
4) We make gift shopping an event where shopping is incidental; we wander around a lot of outdoor markets and only pick something up if it strikes us as “oh [family member] would love this.” This year we explored every aisle of an Ace Hardware simply because we thought it would be fun; we were able to pick up some nice hot sauce in reusable glass jars for their dad, and fancy soap for their brother who does “spa days” with his wife. But if we hadn’t found anything, it wouldn’t have felt like a waste of time, because we were just having fun looking at all the various tools and such and wondering what they’d be used for, while dodging the seventh employee hunting us down to ask if we’d found what we were looking for. Basically, we only shop if we would enjoy the experience unrelated to the shopping—which doesn’t always means a fancy store, either.
5) Part of the reason they have negative feelings around Christmas is they rarely get things from family that feel thoughtful instead of random crap or just “checking the box,” so I put a lot of effort into getting multiple things I think they will truly love, and strategically deploy them on Christmas Day after they’ve gotten a couple of “consumerist crap” gifts and I can see it’s getting them down.
5) They typically don’t buy me gifts themself but family/friends ask them for advice and they make highly specific suggestions according to my interests. I know when someone has knocked it out of the park they’re about to follow it up with “yeah partner helped me pick it out.” So even if they didn’t purchase and wrap it, the fact that they went through the effort to identify something I would like and communicate with their family (not an easy task) is still really meaningful to me.
I don’t know if you recognize yourself or your wife in any of that, but maybe there’s some piece you can take there.
posted by brook horse at 8:56 PM on December 25 [7 favorites]
1) I listen to them grouch/complain about Christmas without internalizing it as being about me and I validate how they feel
2) They don’t ever make snide comments about the stuff I’m doing for Christmas and they engage with genuine joy when I talk about how I’ve found the perfect gift or made something I’m really proud of (I hand make a lot of my gifts)
3) I handle the Christmas expectations from family; they hate being hounded for a Christmas list when they don’t even want stuff, so I just sit down and make one for them because I know them well enough to do that. Then they just have to glance it over and then send out to family. It both takes out the Christmas list stress and makes them feel like someone “gets them” when I can come up with good suggestions.
4) We make gift shopping an event where shopping is incidental; we wander around a lot of outdoor markets and only pick something up if it strikes us as “oh [family member] would love this.” This year we explored every aisle of an Ace Hardware simply because we thought it would be fun; we were able to pick up some nice hot sauce in reusable glass jars for their dad, and fancy soap for their brother who does “spa days” with his wife. But if we hadn’t found anything, it wouldn’t have felt like a waste of time, because we were just having fun looking at all the various tools and such and wondering what they’d be used for, while dodging the seventh employee hunting us down to ask if we’d found what we were looking for. Basically, we only shop if we would enjoy the experience unrelated to the shopping—which doesn’t always means a fancy store, either.
5) Part of the reason they have negative feelings around Christmas is they rarely get things from family that feel thoughtful instead of random crap or just “checking the box,” so I put a lot of effort into getting multiple things I think they will truly love, and strategically deploy them on Christmas Day after they’ve gotten a couple of “consumerist crap” gifts and I can see it’s getting them down.
5) They typically don’t buy me gifts themself but family/friends ask them for advice and they make highly specific suggestions according to my interests. I know when someone has knocked it out of the park they’re about to follow it up with “yeah partner helped me pick it out.” So even if they didn’t purchase and wrap it, the fact that they went through the effort to identify something I would like and communicate with their family (not an easy task) is still really meaningful to me.
I don’t know if you recognize yourself or your wife in any of that, but maybe there’s some piece you can take there.
posted by brook horse at 8:56 PM on December 25 [7 favorites]
Partner read over this post and agrees with everything and that this has worked particularly well for us this year, in case you’re wondering how the other side feels in this arrangement!
posted by brook horse at 9:20 PM on December 25 [4 favorites]
posted by brook horse at 9:20 PM on December 25 [4 favorites]
You do need to to talk to her about this in the new year. The Grinch, might be helpful framing.
posted by oceano at 12:16 AM on December 26
posted by oceano at 12:16 AM on December 26
I’d say, in January, it would be good for you to take some time to reflect on a few things:
How you judge your wife
How this judgment serves you, meaning, what do you get out of it? Why does looking down on her and feeling superior serve you?
I’d suggest doing this in journaling and also therapy. You are causing real harm and need to figure out more about why.
A few stories:
1. When I got married many years ago, my partner and I went to a big box store to register for some gifts. A normally warm and pleasant person, he had a super bad attitude about it, and was grumpy and irritable. We happened to run into an acquaintance there, a man, and my partner complained about being there, maybe a generic shopping complaint. This acquaintance told my partner to get over himself and make the best of it. That comment helped my partner do just that. We actually had a fun time once he stopped being so obstreperous.
2. For a handful of years after that marriage, I dated a guy who sounds somewhat like you do here. He was very judgmental of some things and had a hard time not yucking my yum sometimes. He wouldn’t always tell me when he disliked something and so many little resentments built up. I think a lot of it came from his own insecurities. I am no longer dating him and am now dating someone with more generosity of spirit and really wondering why I put up with that guy for so long. He wasn’t working to grow and some of his behaviors were making us both miserable. Is that you?
3. I have a friend who is leaving a very long, very bad marriage and has told me how incredibly controlling her ex was around money, parsing everything spent over a certain amount and raging even when the family actually had tremendous wealth and could afford all of it with ease. My friend, over the years, became a compulsive shopper and is only now starting to wonder if her compulsive spending habits were driven, in part, by how controlling the ex was around money. I wonder if your reticence about Christmas has unintentionally pushed your wife to embrace it even more. So, in your (kinda gross) example of the person with the eating disorder eating candy bars: are you the person starving your wife? Is she eating all those candy bars because you chained the fridge door shut? I suspect some of her behaviors are a response to you. You may have created this monster, and you both have some work to do to untangle this mess and change this pattern.
Couples therapy, starting in January or February, would do you a lot of good.
posted by bluedaisy at 3:52 AM on December 26 [9 favorites]
How you judge your wife
How this judgment serves you, meaning, what do you get out of it? Why does looking down on her and feeling superior serve you?
I’d suggest doing this in journaling and also therapy. You are causing real harm and need to figure out more about why.
A few stories:
1. When I got married many years ago, my partner and I went to a big box store to register for some gifts. A normally warm and pleasant person, he had a super bad attitude about it, and was grumpy and irritable. We happened to run into an acquaintance there, a man, and my partner complained about being there, maybe a generic shopping complaint. This acquaintance told my partner to get over himself and make the best of it. That comment helped my partner do just that. We actually had a fun time once he stopped being so obstreperous.
2. For a handful of years after that marriage, I dated a guy who sounds somewhat like you do here. He was very judgmental of some things and had a hard time not yucking my yum sometimes. He wouldn’t always tell me when he disliked something and so many little resentments built up. I think a lot of it came from his own insecurities. I am no longer dating him and am now dating someone with more generosity of spirit and really wondering why I put up with that guy for so long. He wasn’t working to grow and some of his behaviors were making us both miserable. Is that you?
3. I have a friend who is leaving a very long, very bad marriage and has told me how incredibly controlling her ex was around money, parsing everything spent over a certain amount and raging even when the family actually had tremendous wealth and could afford all of it with ease. My friend, over the years, became a compulsive shopper and is only now starting to wonder if her compulsive spending habits were driven, in part, by how controlling the ex was around money. I wonder if your reticence about Christmas has unintentionally pushed your wife to embrace it even more. So, in your (kinda gross) example of the person with the eating disorder eating candy bars: are you the person starving your wife? Is she eating all those candy bars because you chained the fridge door shut? I suspect some of her behaviors are a response to you. You may have created this monster, and you both have some work to do to untangle this mess and change this pattern.
Couples therapy, starting in January or February, would do you a lot of good.
posted by bluedaisy at 3:52 AM on December 26 [9 favorites]
Meant to also say: the flowers and apology are a great start. But it’s just a start. You have a lot more to do to unpack your behavior and hers these past few decades.
posted by bluedaisy at 3:54 AM on December 26 [6 favorites]
posted by bluedaisy at 3:54 AM on December 26 [6 favorites]
As the child in a relationship like this, I read this last night and then closed it because it made me too upset. It hurts me deeply to see my mom being treated this way, and reading your post enraged me. I wanted to come over to your house and yell at you because I can't yell at my own stepfather. I wrote some very mean but probably true things, and then closed the browser.
You don't have to agree with your wife about Christmas. But you don't have to be an asshole about it. I'm glad you took some small steps to be less of an asshole this year.
But you need to take some bigger ones, too.
Importantly, do something that demonstrates you're thinking about her, that you care enough to spend a bit of time - not necessarily money - doing something with her in mind. Make a special meal, get her a small but very thoughtful gift, go out to eat with her, buy her a Christmas flower arrangement, or think of something that I can't suggest because you love your wife and know her well. These things do matter; every time you opt out of showing you care for someone? It adds up.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 9:04 AM on December 26 [19 favorites]
You don't have to agree with your wife about Christmas. But you don't have to be an asshole about it. I'm glad you took some small steps to be less of an asshole this year.
But you need to take some bigger ones, too.
Importantly, do something that demonstrates you're thinking about her, that you care enough to spend a bit of time - not necessarily money - doing something with her in mind. Make a special meal, get her a small but very thoughtful gift, go out to eat with her, buy her a Christmas flower arrangement, or think of something that I can't suggest because you love your wife and know her well. These things do matter; every time you opt out of showing you care for someone? It adds up.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 9:04 AM on December 26 [19 favorites]
Can you do the support work? Set up the tree, lay the table, plan the meals completely and buy all the groceries, hang the different decorations, and of course the take down and clean-up. All that is a real gift and has nothing to do with buying stuff. Have her focus on the part you hate, the gift buying and ask her to be Captain of the gift giving for friends and family.
I hate the consumerism too, so taking it as an environmental thing has helped a LOT with reducing my mixed feelings. I bought half of the presents for the kids as second-hand items (puzzles! wooden toys!) and wrapped them in reusable cloth gift wrap. Our decorations are increasingly heritage, handmade, second-hand or bought from thoughtful places over junk and I get some real pleasure from repairing them over the years. Christmas is steadily getting cheaper/less consumer-oriented but more fun with each year.
You can also think of it as replacing broken stuff or getting practical things you were going to get anyway with a little pizazz (one year we all got name-labelled thermoses, this year was animal themed blankets so we wouldn't fight over the three good blankets). Don't buy them during Nov-Dec, but buy them during sales through the year and put them aside so that when Christmas comes, you can ignore the sales pressure.
For extended family - truly claiming to be super zero-waste environmental even if you aren't in your heart goes a LONG way to justifying gifts that are not plastic junk but practical things like swedish dishcloths with cute patterns and organic hot chocolate mix etc.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 5:30 AM on December 29 [1 favorite]
I hate the consumerism too, so taking it as an environmental thing has helped a LOT with reducing my mixed feelings. I bought half of the presents for the kids as second-hand items (puzzles! wooden toys!) and wrapped them in reusable cloth gift wrap. Our decorations are increasingly heritage, handmade, second-hand or bought from thoughtful places over junk and I get some real pleasure from repairing them over the years. Christmas is steadily getting cheaper/less consumer-oriented but more fun with each year.
You can also think of it as replacing broken stuff or getting practical things you were going to get anyway with a little pizazz (one year we all got name-labelled thermoses, this year was animal themed blankets so we wouldn't fight over the three good blankets). Don't buy them during Nov-Dec, but buy them during sales through the year and put them aside so that when Christmas comes, you can ignore the sales pressure.
For extended family - truly claiming to be super zero-waste environmental even if you aren't in your heart goes a LONG way to justifying gifts that are not plastic junk but practical things like swedish dishcloths with cute patterns and organic hot chocolate mix etc.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 5:30 AM on December 29 [1 favorite]
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posted by Why Is The World In Love Again? at 11:46 AM on December 24 [66 favorites]