should I talk to my friend about an awkward situation she caused (again)
November 18, 2024 12:28 PM Subscribe
my best friend sent everyone an unexpected bill after her husband's birthday party she planned. Everyone hates it.
a few years ago, our couple friends hosted a party for his 40th birthday. they charged everyone $20 in advance for wine and cheese. this was not well recieved and it didn't end up feeling like "if everyone kicks in some money we can really have an extravaganza" it was more like "we only spent the exact amount of money you gave us and perhaps even less." it put a bad taste in everyone's mouths and it was sort of a "thing" but I decided it wasn't worth talking to her about at the time as we all consented to the cost.
ffwd a few years, Friday we went to a pub for his birthday to do karaoke - invitations were sent! rsvps were received! this was presented as a "birthday party" not a get together or a night out.
corkage at this (divey-ass) bar is cheap so bottles of wine were brought and the cost for wine was a cost people consented to that would be split later (me and my spouse don't drink wine so we opted out of this)
fun night, four or five 12" pizzas were delivered to our table of 10ish people. (no orders or opt-ins were asked for, my friend ordered the pizza) We didn't drink wine so I tipped as I got beers at the counter, no table service. I saw at least one other guest tip staff on the way out and I feel sure we all did, this is a pretty polite friend group.
Sunday, we recieve a text from the wife and host (my best friend) "hey, food and tip worked out to about $20 per person, please send me an etransfer when you get a chance! <3" and we know from other friends that if you opted into wine, it was almost $50 each. there was no discussion of any split costs for this party outside of the wine.
this is going down badly, they are too old (she's the youngest of these friends but over 35 and he's 40+. we are NOT in college, some of us literally have kids in college) and too financially secure for this to be reasonable, and the amount is weirdly high? my husband heard they left a very extravagant tip (over $100) which is especially silly because due to this not being discussed, I think we all generously tipped separately.
my friend is an intelligent lady but she doesn't seem to know/understand etiquette and social conventions sometimes and I wonder if I should talk to her about how this was... it's just really not good. this hurts their (especially her, as the "host" and as a woman who is being held to higher (unfair) etiquette standards) reputation with her friends in a way I don't think she's intending or aware of. if she was not my best friend I would just, whatever, think twice about her next party, but she says I'm like her sister, and if I recieved a party bill from my actual sister I would've texted back "NO".
the rest of this group of friends hosts normally and quite generously, we've been party guests at each others' expenses many times.
sorry this is so long! what do you think? is it beyond the pale or am I being overdramatic about how tacky I think this is? if I should I broach the topic, how would you do it? should I just let my friend keep digging herself into this hole?
a few years ago, our couple friends hosted a party for his 40th birthday. they charged everyone $20 in advance for wine and cheese. this was not well recieved and it didn't end up feeling like "if everyone kicks in some money we can really have an extravaganza" it was more like "we only spent the exact amount of money you gave us and perhaps even less." it put a bad taste in everyone's mouths and it was sort of a "thing" but I decided it wasn't worth talking to her about at the time as we all consented to the cost.
ffwd a few years, Friday we went to a pub for his birthday to do karaoke - invitations were sent! rsvps were received! this was presented as a "birthday party" not a get together or a night out.
corkage at this (divey-ass) bar is cheap so bottles of wine were brought and the cost for wine was a cost people consented to that would be split later (me and my spouse don't drink wine so we opted out of this)
fun night, four or five 12" pizzas were delivered to our table of 10ish people. (no orders or opt-ins were asked for, my friend ordered the pizza) We didn't drink wine so I tipped as I got beers at the counter, no table service. I saw at least one other guest tip staff on the way out and I feel sure we all did, this is a pretty polite friend group.
Sunday, we recieve a text from the wife and host (my best friend) "hey, food and tip worked out to about $20 per person, please send me an etransfer when you get a chance! <3" and we know from other friends that if you opted into wine, it was almost $50 each. there was no discussion of any split costs for this party outside of the wine.
this is going down badly, they are too old (she's the youngest of these friends but over 35 and he's 40+. we are NOT in college, some of us literally have kids in college) and too financially secure for this to be reasonable, and the amount is weirdly high? my husband heard they left a very extravagant tip (over $100) which is especially silly because due to this not being discussed, I think we all generously tipped separately.
my friend is an intelligent lady but she doesn't seem to know/understand etiquette and social conventions sometimes and I wonder if I should talk to her about how this was... it's just really not good. this hurts their (especially her, as the "host" and as a woman who is being held to higher (unfair) etiquette standards) reputation with her friends in a way I don't think she's intending or aware of. if she was not my best friend I would just, whatever, think twice about her next party, but she says I'm like her sister, and if I recieved a party bill from my actual sister I would've texted back "NO".
the rest of this group of friends hosts normally and quite generously, we've been party guests at each others' expenses many times.
sorry this is so long! what do you think? is it beyond the pale or am I being overdramatic about how tacky I think this is? if I should I broach the topic, how would you do it? should I just let my friend keep digging herself into this hole?
Best answer: If it was my best friend, I'd send the money first and then have the conversation. That makes it crystal clear that for me it is not about the money but about honest, genuine advice about how this should go to make it better for everyone next time. And for my best friend, I wouldn't mind investing $20 or $50 into something that I thought was a little unfair, just to gas them up and have their back.
That said, I do think it is more 'a little unfair' rather than 'beyond the pale'. These days, there are many social groups that do operate in a more calculatedly transactional way, especially among younger people. Your friend's error is more about not meeting the expectations and norms of your peers, than about violating some kind of red line universal norm.
posted by Kwine at 12:45 PM on November 18, 2024 [25 favorites]
That said, I do think it is more 'a little unfair' rather than 'beyond the pale'. These days, there are many social groups that do operate in a more calculatedly transactional way, especially among younger people. Your friend's error is more about not meeting the expectations and norms of your peers, than about violating some kind of red line universal norm.
posted by Kwine at 12:45 PM on November 18, 2024 [25 favorites]
I would not pay the $20, and would say something like, "If you want to share costs at an event you invite people to, they need to know that up-front so they can decide whether that's a thing they want to do." And make a mental note to myself to always ask this person about the money if they invite me to a thing.
I often invite friends to join me someplace, and I always make it as clear as I can whether it's a my-treat invitation or just a "let's do this thing together" invitation. This is part of my quest to make talking about money more normal and up-front. So, "Would you like to get lunch with me at the Soup Spoon? My treat!" or "I can't treat this time, but I'd love to see you."
posted by Well I never at 12:46 PM on November 18, 2024 [26 favorites]
I often invite friends to join me someplace, and I always make it as clear as I can whether it's a my-treat invitation or just a "let's do this thing together" invitation. This is part of my quest to make talking about money more normal and up-front. So, "Would you like to get lunch with me at the Soup Spoon? My treat!" or "I can't treat this time, but I'd love to see you."
posted by Well I never at 12:46 PM on November 18, 2024 [26 favorites]
Yes, I think you can broach this as, "yes, I think this was tacky, but more to the point, you are ruining your reputation with this friend group." Point to the fact that no one else does this, that everyone else treats from time to time, that they can afford to take their turn treating.
Prepare for the fact that they might take it poorly. You might tell another friend or two that you are going to do this if you want to say "ask X and Y if you want to confirm" and make sure X and Y won't throw you under the bus. But being honest is what a good friend would do. This is something they can fix, but not if they don't know everyone else sees it as a problem.
We all have our blind spots and foibles. This is dumb and they should probably know better, but friends try to help each other along. When I am doing something stupid I would love for a friend to take me aside and compassionately tell me I'm making an ass of myself, they love me anyway, but figure I should know how I'm coming off. Especially if it's becoming a "thing" that is going down badly behind their back.
posted by rikschell at 12:49 PM on November 18, 2024 [7 favorites]
Prepare for the fact that they might take it poorly. You might tell another friend or two that you are going to do this if you want to say "ask X and Y if you want to confirm" and make sure X and Y won't throw you under the bus. But being honest is what a good friend would do. This is something they can fix, but not if they don't know everyone else sees it as a problem.
We all have our blind spots and foibles. This is dumb and they should probably know better, but friends try to help each other along. When I am doing something stupid I would love for a friend to take me aside and compassionately tell me I'm making an ass of myself, they love me anyway, but figure I should know how I'm coming off. Especially if it's becoming a "thing" that is going down badly behind their back.
posted by rikschell at 12:49 PM on November 18, 2024 [7 favorites]
Per Captain Awkward's many many iterations of answering this question, I wouldn't tell her everyone hates it. You don't need to speak for anyone else - you can just say you don't like the way this went down. I like Well I never's advice above.
I grew up splitting checks, always, since I was broke as a teen and young adult and so was everyone else I knew. Once I started running into folks for whom this is not the norm (my partner, for one) it was an adjustment for sure. It has definitely been easier to take turns paying for the coffeeshop friend date since I started making a living wage, so I feel you on this one.
posted by Lawn Beaver at 12:52 PM on November 18, 2024 [4 favorites]
I grew up splitting checks, always, since I was broke as a teen and young adult and so was everyone else I knew. Once I started running into folks for whom this is not the norm (my partner, for one) it was an adjustment for sure. It has definitely been easier to take turns paying for the coffeeshop friend date since I started making a living wage, so I feel you on this one.
posted by Lawn Beaver at 12:52 PM on November 18, 2024 [4 favorites]
The sharing costs at the restaurant actually seems more reasonable to me than asking for food for a party at their house. Like, I think that if you go out with someone on their birthday, it's pretty common for folks to pay for it. Maybe it's weird if the birthday haver's spouse organizes the event, but I guess I wonder why you all aren't offering to treat this person for their birthday?
I wouldn't presume you all have the same etiquette around this, or it's standard. It's clear that this is rubbing folks the wrong way, and I think it would be great if you talked to her, after paying. I also think it would just be good to be like, "Hey, next time, let's check in about costs and money before the event so we all know what we are agreeing to."
The part that's weird is if you are going to her saying, "We all think this is weird," because that might mean she'll be stressed that everyone is being grumbly behind her back and not telling her, which is super awkward.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:57 PM on November 18, 2024 [8 favorites]
I wouldn't presume you all have the same etiquette around this, or it's standard. It's clear that this is rubbing folks the wrong way, and I think it would be great if you talked to her, after paying. I also think it would just be good to be like, "Hey, next time, let's check in about costs and money before the event so we all know what we are agreeing to."
The part that's weird is if you are going to her saying, "We all think this is weird," because that might mean she'll be stressed that everyone is being grumbly behind her back and not telling her, which is super awkward.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:57 PM on November 18, 2024 [8 favorites]
I wouldn't assume that they can afford to foot the bill, it's rude to count other people's money and you don't know what they have going on (likely something they don't want to tell you about, like a health condition, DUI, supporting family members in crisis).
I do think you should ask them to tell people up front if they plan to send a bill later, just leave out anything about their financial standing.
posted by momus_window at 12:58 PM on November 18, 2024 [3 favorites]
I do think you should ask them to tell people up front if they plan to send a bill later, just leave out anything about their financial standing.
posted by momus_window at 12:58 PM on November 18, 2024 [3 favorites]
This seems like it potentially goes well beyond splitting checks, is the thing. It sounds like the hosts collected $200 ($20 x 10 people) for four or five 12-inch pizzas. Maybe pizzas are much more expensive where OP is located than where I am, or maybe these were extremely fancy pizzas. But $40-50 per 12-inch pizza is A LOT!
I guess part of the question here is: OP, do you think your friends are just clumsily trying to cover their costs, or do you think they're trying to profit off of the event (also very clumsily, for what it's worth)?
posted by mskyle at 1:03 PM on November 18, 2024 [10 favorites]
I guess part of the question here is: OP, do you think your friends are just clumsily trying to cover their costs, or do you think they're trying to profit off of the event (also very clumsily, for what it's worth)?
posted by mskyle at 1:03 PM on November 18, 2024 [10 favorites]
I agree that the idea of splitting costs in a group that generally takes turn paying for others is an error on her part and something to address. Everyone is socialized differently, but a key social skill that most people pick up by their 30s is learning to read the room. It's possible this couple lacks self-awareness. I agree this part is kinda a minor faux-pas though - I'm in my 30s, and splitting costs at a restaurant is pretty normal to me.
But like mskyle points out, what's really weird about this to me is the apparent overcharging. Fancy 12" pizza in my area tends to max out around $20-22 (and are often more like 15/17) - even with a generous tip, it seems like they are profiting from this situation, and that feels gross to do to friends. Likewise, $30 per person for retail wine + a small corkage fee? Unless they bought really fancy stuff and your friends drank a lot, that seems off.
I would have this conversation face to face. I actually would bring up the other people - I wouldn't say "everyone hates this" but I would gently alert her that this has rubbed a lot of the friend group the wrong way and people are feeling used. She should be aware of that - otherwise she can't adequately apologize and address the situation.
posted by coffeecat at 1:23 PM on November 18, 2024 [11 favorites]
But like mskyle points out, what's really weird about this to me is the apparent overcharging. Fancy 12" pizza in my area tends to max out around $20-22 (and are often more like 15/17) - even with a generous tip, it seems like they are profiting from this situation, and that feels gross to do to friends. Likewise, $30 per person for retail wine + a small corkage fee? Unless they bought really fancy stuff and your friends drank a lot, that seems off.
I would have this conversation face to face. I actually would bring up the other people - I wouldn't say "everyone hates this" but I would gently alert her that this has rubbed a lot of the friend group the wrong way and people are feeling used. She should be aware of that - otherwise she can't adequately apologize and address the situation.
posted by coffeecat at 1:23 PM on November 18, 2024 [11 favorites]
As her best friend, I think it's really important that you have a conversation with her about this. Charging people for food at your house is weird and violates social norms. Splitting the bill when out does not violate norms, but it would be best to make it clear from the outset.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 1:35 PM on November 18, 2024 [6 favorites]
posted by kinddieserzeit at 1:35 PM on November 18, 2024 [6 favorites]
The young people are talking a lot about "eyebrow blindness" these days, perhaps you can couch it in that sort of conversation, ask if she would want to know if she had a "blindness". She has hosting-blindness, she hasn't realised that her life has moved on and so has her social circle from when she was younger, and she needs to re-orient to your groups norms if she doesn't want people muttering about her.
posted by J.R. Hartley at 1:53 PM on November 18, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by J.R. Hartley at 1:53 PM on November 18, 2024 [2 favorites]
I think this is mildly annoying but not much more than that. I’d send the money first, and then since you feel you are so close as to owe her a sister like response, I would note that you hadn’t budgeted for that and would appreciate a heads-up before the next party if there is going to be an expectation to kick in.
I wouldn’t say a word about how anyone else feels, and would not get into gossiping with your other friends about this, just change the subject. You do not need to be the go between here. I would also not bring up your tipping, since it sounds like you were tipping for your drinks which are not part of this calculation.
In the future I’d either plan to pay my own way for any parties they host, or ask first, or both.
posted by Stacey at 2:11 PM on November 18, 2024 [4 favorites]
I wouldn’t say a word about how anyone else feels, and would not get into gossiping with your other friends about this, just change the subject. You do not need to be the go between here. I would also not bring up your tipping, since it sounds like you were tipping for your drinks which are not part of this calculation.
In the future I’d either plan to pay my own way for any parties they host, or ask first, or both.
posted by Stacey at 2:11 PM on November 18, 2024 [4 favorites]
In the future I’d either plan to pay my own way for any parties they host, or ask first, or both.
My initial reaction to this sentence was "yeah, next time she sent out an invite, I'd be resisting the urge to reply, 'and how much are you planning to surprise-bill us this time?' on the group text..."
Which really means that yes, OP, you should 100% figure out a way to broach this more gently, before someone impulsively makes it An Entire Thing, with hurt feelings all around.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 2:40 PM on November 18, 2024 [2 favorites]
My initial reaction to this sentence was "yeah, next time she sent out an invite, I'd be resisting the urge to reply, 'and how much are you planning to surprise-bill us this time?' on the group text..."
Which really means that yes, OP, you should 100% figure out a way to broach this more gently, before someone impulsively makes it An Entire Thing, with hurt feelings all around.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 2:40 PM on November 18, 2024 [2 favorites]
In my friend group (30s/40s) the moment where the host went to pay the bill would have prompted people to start chiming in with "Oh, thanks [for sparing us the logistical nightmare of splitting the check while drunk], let me know later what to Paypal you!" giving the host the opportunity to clarify whether they intended to cover everybody or not. I wonder if she was expecting people to offer to pay for their share of the food and when they didn't, thought you were the ones being rude or awkward? That said, no one in my group is married, so the 'treat the birthday person' norm is more established and there's no spouse dynamics complicating the question of who is hosting/treating whom.
That said, I agree it's weird that she fully negotiated the split on wine beforehand but not food, if she expected the food to also be split. That would have confused my expectations, too.
posted by space snail at 2:51 PM on November 18, 2024 [2 favorites]
That said, I agree it's weird that she fully negotiated the split on wine beforehand but not food, if she expected the food to also be split. That would have confused my expectations, too.
posted by space snail at 2:51 PM on November 18, 2024 [2 favorites]
Best answer: This feels super weird and off to me too, to the point where it's confusing in addition to seeming gauche. Could you phrase it like "Heyo, sent the $$ but honestly was a little surprised -- I paid at the bar (and tipped) and wasn't really consulted about the pizzas etc. Was this always the plan to settle up like this? I feel like I'm missing something re: splitting the bill because the invite made it seem more like you guys were hosting. Anyway, was great to see you, happy happy." And see what she says. Maybe she has a really good reason and is just articulating it poorly; maybe she thinks this is totally normal, and it'll be helpful to hear it's not; maybe something else, who knows. (In my friend group, this would be weird as hell, which is why I'd want to get to the bottom of it, but YMMV.)
posted by Charity Garfein at 3:13 PM on November 18, 2024 [15 favorites]
posted by Charity Garfein at 3:13 PM on November 18, 2024 [15 favorites]
I would decline future invitations from them.
posted by saturdaymornings at 3:33 PM on November 18, 2024 [11 favorites]
posted by saturdaymornings at 3:33 PM on November 18, 2024 [11 favorites]
In my friend group (30s/40s) the moment where the host went to pay the bill would have prompted people to start chiming in with "Oh, thanks [for sparing us the logistical nightmare of splitting the check while drunk], let me know later what to Paypal you!"
My friend group is about 10 years older, and we would do the same. The general expectation is that everyone but the birthday person pays though, so the partner would not be getting free food in this scenario. That said, the messaging around this particular event is very confusing. I would pay my share, and then let my friend know that they really need to make it clear before any dinners out who is paying, with an estimate of costs beforehand and a visible bill afterward. Ultra-extravagant tips should be on them- though I am on board with generally tipping a lot for a large party, they shouldn't be throwing more than 20% of other people's money around without asking the other guests first- especially since gratuities for groups larger than 8 are added to the bill around here.
As far as costs go, I live in a place where food is expensive. A 12" pizza for 17 bucks is not unheard of, plus tax and tip that's pretty close to 20 dollars a pizza. Presumably there was a delivery fee too. But that would only work out to around 10 dollars a person for food in this scenario! I think it is perfectly reasonable to ask to see the receipt in this case. "Happy to pay my fair share! Please send me a photo of the pizza receipt for my records!" If everything is aboveboard, this shouldn't cause a fuss. Entirely depends on if you want to possibly blow up this friendship though.
posted by oneirodynia at 3:47 PM on November 18, 2024
Response by poster: address a couple things:
-we already paid, everyone will pay, no one will say anything unless I do!
-cultural differences: a couple friends hail from places with very generous hosting tradition, which she would know as well as I.
-splitting a cheque wouldn't have been strange if discussed, and we would have ordered and paid for our own food if left to it. they way it was done everyone was surprised so it really wasn't a normal miscommunication.
-I'm honestly unsure if they're making money off it, I don't think they would do that, but also the math doesn't math just for pizza and I think there's a chance that the bills covered their babysitter and ubers?
-you can't count other people's money but she is my best friend and she's not shy about that kind of stuff, they can afford to host a party.
for the record, I'm not upset at her! I only gave this surprise bill an eyeroll, I love her, quirks included! but after hearing the scuttlebutt I think that she effed up. I am always interested to hear if metafilter in general finds it rude too of course, but this group definitely did. I'm feeling embarrassed for her and am just trying to decide if I should take action to prevent something similar from happening again, or let her strike herself out on this - I think she'll have trouble populating another party unless she does some (light) apologizing and explaining!
posted by euphoria066 at 4:00 PM on November 18, 2024 [6 favorites]
-we already paid, everyone will pay, no one will say anything unless I do!
-cultural differences: a couple friends hail from places with very generous hosting tradition, which she would know as well as I.
-splitting a cheque wouldn't have been strange if discussed, and we would have ordered and paid for our own food if left to it. they way it was done everyone was surprised so it really wasn't a normal miscommunication.
-I'm honestly unsure if they're making money off it, I don't think they would do that, but also the math doesn't math just for pizza and I think there's a chance that the bills covered their babysitter and ubers?
-you can't count other people's money but she is my best friend and she's not shy about that kind of stuff, they can afford to host a party.
for the record, I'm not upset at her! I only gave this surprise bill an eyeroll, I love her, quirks included! but after hearing the scuttlebutt I think that she effed up. I am always interested to hear if metafilter in general finds it rude too of course, but this group definitely did. I'm feeling embarrassed for her and am just trying to decide if I should take action to prevent something similar from happening again, or let her strike herself out on this - I think she'll have trouble populating another party unless she does some (light) apologizing and explaining!
posted by euphoria066 at 4:00 PM on November 18, 2024 [6 favorites]
Yeah, if you know she's unlikely to get folks to another party, tell her that you and others were happy to chip in, but she should make it clear in the future, and likely make it clear that they're treating next time if they want folks to come. It sounds like she's not the sort of person who would Want to piss off all her friends, so the kind thing is to tell her that this deserves at least a light apology for not telling people ahead of time.
Worse comes to worst, she's appalled you think this way and drops you as a friend - and that doesn't speak well to her values, either. Just approach it with kindness as a friend, and you'll have done your part for your friend And your friend circle.
(I'm reminded of a friend who, in their early 30s, tried to get friends to help move stuff into a (purchased!) home that none of the friends could afford, and who seemed to find it completely fair when a close friend told her to just hire movers instead).
Also, if you want to couch it (ie she's likely to get defensive), don't mention the last time, present it as a change "as we all get older and more able to pay for our own parties". Bonus points if you can list a couple of recent examples she attended (and did not have to pay for).
posted by ldthomps at 4:28 PM on November 18, 2024 [2 favorites]
Worse comes to worst, she's appalled you think this way and drops you as a friend - and that doesn't speak well to her values, either. Just approach it with kindness as a friend, and you'll have done your part for your friend And your friend circle.
(I'm reminded of a friend who, in their early 30s, tried to get friends to help move stuff into a (purchased!) home that none of the friends could afford, and who seemed to find it completely fair when a close friend told her to just hire movers instead).
Also, if you want to couch it (ie she's likely to get defensive), don't mention the last time, present it as a change "as we all get older and more able to pay for our own parties". Bonus points if you can list a couple of recent examples she attended (and did not have to pay for).
posted by ldthomps at 4:28 PM on November 18, 2024 [2 favorites]
I find it rude - I would actually have been quite upset. But then I'm used to not having much money and surprise bills are never a good thing. It's not just the money - if I know in advance or even the day of, I will pay extra for a fun party, pay for other people, whatever - what goes around comes around is my way of thinking. It's the calculatedness of it. Getting a bill like that after the fact would have made the whole thing feel, I don't know, weird and commercial? It was a birthday party. Not a work function.
So, if it was my best friend, yes, I would sit her down and have a conversation. I'd explain that it was awkward and uncomfortable and she has most definitely lost some of her next party guests. I would just go in like, I know you didn't think about this! But most people don't do this - ordinarily you explain in advance or you foot the bill. And you never, ever send a bill the next day; that's just rude.
posted by mygothlaundry at 4:34 PM on November 18, 2024 [4 favorites]
So, if it was my best friend, yes, I would sit her down and have a conversation. I'd explain that it was awkward and uncomfortable and she has most definitely lost some of her next party guests. I would just go in like, I know you didn't think about this! But most people don't do this - ordinarily you explain in advance or you foot the bill. And you never, ever send a bill the next day; that's just rude.
posted by mygothlaundry at 4:34 PM on November 18, 2024 [4 favorites]
Okay, look, I don't think you can expect her to explain and apologize to folks. I don't think it should be on you to represent everyone else. Other people can speak for themselves, and I don't think you do anyone any good by speaking for anyone else.
It would have been great to mention this a few years ago, and you didn't. That doesn't mean you should make it too much of a thing now. She's hearing about it for the first time, even while others are seeing a pattern of behavior.
That some folks in the group are generous hosters doesn't seem super relevant. I would still approach this as, "Hey, I felt awkward to get this money request after the fact. That would be a great thing to discuss in advance next time."
Like, if her friends are mad enough about this to not want to hang out again, that kinda sucks to me, honestly, if they also aren't willing to say anything. Like, that's a bit cowardly, to leave a friendship rather than say a few words about money?
posted by bluedaisy at 4:42 PM on November 18, 2024 [4 favorites]
It would have been great to mention this a few years ago, and you didn't. That doesn't mean you should make it too much of a thing now. She's hearing about it for the first time, even while others are seeing a pattern of behavior.
That some folks in the group are generous hosters doesn't seem super relevant. I would still approach this as, "Hey, I felt awkward to get this money request after the fact. That would be a great thing to discuss in advance next time."
Like, if her friends are mad enough about this to not want to hang out again, that kinda sucks to me, honestly, if they also aren't willing to say anything. Like, that's a bit cowardly, to leave a friendship rather than say a few words about money?
posted by bluedaisy at 4:42 PM on November 18, 2024 [4 favorites]
Like Kwine, I think I would just pay it and be silently annoyed. I wouldn't even bring it up after. What I WOULD do is make a mental note that next time I do anything with her involved, the payment agreement will be crystal clear up front, even to the point of being awkward about it. Normally that would feel gauche to quibble about payment plans when someone's inviting you to something, but she's shown she needs it.
After all, like you say, it's only 20 bucks and you all have it no problem. Just file in the mental note file and don't let it surprise you again.
posted by ctmf at 5:35 PM on November 18, 2024 [1 favorite]
After all, like you say, it's only 20 bucks and you all have it no problem. Just file in the mental note file and don't let it surprise you again.
posted by ctmf at 5:35 PM on November 18, 2024 [1 favorite]
In my friend group we have the opposite -- so many people throwing money into the hat the host has a problem trying NOT to make money and saying no, really, I don't need your money. So somewhat don't relate with the scenario and to be honest, kind of think it's weird you would go to someone's birthday party and not make them take or turn down your money, slightly more than your estimated fair share. But I would also expect the host to silently eat the cost if somehow that didn't work out, and take a lesson for next time to be more up-front about what their expectations were.
posted by ctmf at 5:48 PM on November 18, 2024 [4 favorites]
posted by ctmf at 5:48 PM on November 18, 2024 [4 favorites]
I guess I'm seeing this a little differently than others here.
Personally, I see talking to this friend as a favor to her, even though it has the potential to hurt her feelings. I mean, I would want to know in her position. I wouldn't want people to start declining her invitations, talking about her behind her back, or having uncharitable thoughts about her. I would feel it was my responsibility as her friend - kind of like telling a friend that they have a period stain on their pants. Mortifying in the moment to prevent more embarrassment in the future.
But how I started that conversation would really depend on my relationship with them and my assessment of their personality. I have one friend I know I could just send a message on Discord and explain things pretty directly. I have another where I might want until it comes up again and then try to ease into it gently, by suggesting that if she wants to split the bill she include that in her invite, or expressing confusion (like the other suggestion up there) to hint more indirectly at there being an issue.
But yeah. I'd tell her. I think one way of framing this is as being about norms, and because people have different norms you just have to be upfront.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 5:50 PM on November 18, 2024 [10 favorites]
Personally, I see talking to this friend as a favor to her, even though it has the potential to hurt her feelings. I mean, I would want to know in her position. I wouldn't want people to start declining her invitations, talking about her behind her back, or having uncharitable thoughts about her. I would feel it was my responsibility as her friend - kind of like telling a friend that they have a period stain on their pants. Mortifying in the moment to prevent more embarrassment in the future.
But how I started that conversation would really depend on my relationship with them and my assessment of their personality. I have one friend I know I could just send a message on Discord and explain things pretty directly. I have another where I might want until it comes up again and then try to ease into it gently, by suggesting that if she wants to split the bill she include that in her invite, or expressing confusion (like the other suggestion up there) to hint more indirectly at there being an issue.
But yeah. I'd tell her. I think one way of framing this is as being about norms, and because people have different norms you just have to be upfront.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 5:50 PM on November 18, 2024 [10 favorites]
Could your friend be on the autism spectrum? Maybe they don't realize that what they did was a faux pas.
(Years ago, I had a definitely autistic friend who hosted a party and charged guests rather a lot. They then went around showing off the new and expensive trinkets they got with the proceeds, saying without irony "I made out like a bandit that night!". A couple of us had a quiet sit down with him to explain that's not how friendships work. He didn't do it again.)
posted by scruss at 6:40 PM on November 18, 2024 [1 favorite]
(Years ago, I had a definitely autistic friend who hosted a party and charged guests rather a lot. They then went around showing off the new and expensive trinkets they got with the proceeds, saying without irony "I made out like a bandit that night!". A couple of us had a quiet sit down with him to explain that's not how friendships work. He didn't do it again.)
posted by scruss at 6:40 PM on November 18, 2024 [1 favorite]
Several different "friend cultures" have been described in this thread - but in my view it really doesn't matter what goes on in anyone else's friend group, what matters is the custom in your friend group. Because that particular custom is what everyone's expectations are based on, and it's what is reciprocated among your friends.
I have friend groups where it's customary to take turns getting the check, friend groups where it's customary to get into actual physical battles to pay, friend groups where it's customary to split the bill at the table, and friend groups where it's customary for one person to put the whole thing on their card and then have everyone send their share later on. I have friend groups where everyone orders their own appies and entrees, friend groups where we order a bunch of food and share family style, and friend groups where we go to each other's homes and have potlucks. It's what works for each particular friend group depending on what food or restaurants we like, the size of the group, dietary restrictions and allergies, budgets, ethnic/cultural backgrounds, and so on. There is no one single right way for a friend group in their 30's-40's to do this. The way that your friend group has established as their way is all that is actually relevant to this discussion.
Of course, you know the customs of your friend group better than any of us. If your friend is not catching on, I think it would be a kindness for you to take her aside before she hosts another gathering and let her know that it would be appreciated if she would make the payment expectations clear upon invitation. If you have examples of how other friends have hosted events which were well-received, you could bring those up for illustrative purposes. If she still doesn't see your point, well, you did your part as a friend.
posted by keep it under cover at 6:41 PM on November 18, 2024 [2 favorites]
I have friend groups where it's customary to take turns getting the check, friend groups where it's customary to get into actual physical battles to pay, friend groups where it's customary to split the bill at the table, and friend groups where it's customary for one person to put the whole thing on their card and then have everyone send their share later on. I have friend groups where everyone orders their own appies and entrees, friend groups where we order a bunch of food and share family style, and friend groups where we go to each other's homes and have potlucks. It's what works for each particular friend group depending on what food or restaurants we like, the size of the group, dietary restrictions and allergies, budgets, ethnic/cultural backgrounds, and so on. There is no one single right way for a friend group in their 30's-40's to do this. The way that your friend group has established as their way is all that is actually relevant to this discussion.
Of course, you know the customs of your friend group better than any of us. If your friend is not catching on, I think it would be a kindness for you to take her aside before she hosts another gathering and let her know that it would be appreciated if she would make the payment expectations clear upon invitation. If you have examples of how other friends have hosted events which were well-received, you could bring those up for illustrative purposes. If she still doesn't see your point, well, you did your part as a friend.
posted by keep it under cover at 6:41 PM on November 18, 2024 [2 favorites]
I am always interested to hear if metafilter in general finds it rude too
If I were financially secure, I'd probably find it rude and off-putting. Since in my case I have to actually watch my pennies, I'd find it thoughtless of them and stressful on me.
I would probably talk with her since you're so close, but what approach would be best is a question for people who know her.
posted by trig at 7:04 PM on November 18, 2024 [2 favorites]
If I were financially secure, I'd probably find it rude and off-putting. Since in my case I have to actually watch my pennies, I'd find it thoughtless of them and stressful on me.
I would probably talk with her since you're so close, but what approach would be best is a question for people who know her.
posted by trig at 7:04 PM on November 18, 2024 [2 favorites]
A very gentle approach is to ask "have you ever wondered about how other people don't send out bills when they host?" And see what they say.
posted by dum spiro spero at 7:15 PM on November 18, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by dum spiro spero at 7:15 PM on November 18, 2024 [1 favorite]
I think you should tell her. It’s tacky and off putting to ambush people.
Both treating your friends and splitting the check in real-time (dividing the birthday-person’s cost or not) are a-ok, as is a prearranged ‘I’ll pay and everyone can reimburse me’. The problem is the ambush, not the eventual logistics.
I am not sure whether I’d pony up in the circumstances you describe. I probably would, but would definitely Send A Message to accompany it.
posted by janell at 7:16 PM on November 18, 2024 [2 favorites]
Both treating your friends and splitting the check in real-time (dividing the birthday-person’s cost or not) are a-ok, as is a prearranged ‘I’ll pay and everyone can reimburse me’. The problem is the ambush, not the eventual logistics.
I am not sure whether I’d pony up in the circumstances you describe. I probably would, but would definitely Send A Message to accompany it.
posted by janell at 7:16 PM on November 18, 2024 [2 favorites]
Best answer: 10 people at 20 bucks per is roughly 200 bucks. This isn't a lot of money to spend on your spouse's birthday party. I wouldn't begrudge her the money since she asked, but yeah, at the very least it makes her look cheap, not to mention the "surprise" element of the text-after-party comes off as rude. She might find a few folks reluctant to come to anything she invites them to in the future, just so they don't have to put up with any weird BS, which would be a shame. Finding a gentle way to communicate the faux pas to her would probably be doing her a service.
posted by axiom at 7:25 PM on November 18, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by axiom at 7:25 PM on November 18, 2024 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: sorry, a bit chatty:
don't worry, these stakes are LOW. the repercussions I'm worried about are really some people not prioritizing her parties, a small bit of gossip while the tea is hot, and people cementing their impression that she's not a good host, which I think is just that she didn't realize she had made it seem like she was "hosting a party" and had intended to project more of a "everyone going out" vibe where this is normal!
I'm actually really appreciating knowing everyone's different friend cultures though - most of these friends are quite a bit richer (and grew up a lot richer) than me and it really does change conversations about money. I'd be really worried if people tried to give me money at a party I was hosting, is it because they think I'm poor and I can't afford to treat my friends?? 😂 - which clearly is energy I'd be all alone in with some groups!
I think I'm going with - there's a possibility the teasing is gentler than I interpreted it, but I still will tell her (in person) that we were surprised to be charged and that she should be sure she's upfront with the way costs will be split if she's doing enough organizational work to imply a hosted party!
posted by euphoria066 at 7:43 PM on November 18, 2024 [8 favorites]
don't worry, these stakes are LOW. the repercussions I'm worried about are really some people not prioritizing her parties, a small bit of gossip while the tea is hot, and people cementing their impression that she's not a good host, which I think is just that she didn't realize she had made it seem like she was "hosting a party" and had intended to project more of a "everyone going out" vibe where this is normal!
I'm actually really appreciating knowing everyone's different friend cultures though - most of these friends are quite a bit richer (and grew up a lot richer) than me and it really does change conversations about money. I'd be really worried if people tried to give me money at a party I was hosting, is it because they think I'm poor and I can't afford to treat my friends?? 😂 - which clearly is energy I'd be all alone in with some groups!
I think I'm going with - there's a possibility the teasing is gentler than I interpreted it, but I still will tell her (in person) that we were surprised to be charged and that she should be sure she's upfront with the way costs will be split if she's doing enough organizational work to imply a hosted party!
posted by euphoria066 at 7:43 PM on November 18, 2024 [8 favorites]
I am always interested to hear if metafilter in general finds it rude too
A bit late in answering, but I think this absolutely appallingly, jaw-droppingly rude, and I'm actually kind of surprised people here seem so mellow about it. If you ask people to a gathering, you don't ask them to pay for it, period, especially after the fact after they've accepted your hospitality! If she had sent me a bill for a party, I would frankly just ignore the request for payment and if she followed up on it would tell her in no uncertain terms what I thought. Someone needs to tell her that this is absolutely unacceptable. My god.
posted by holborne at 9:29 AM on November 19, 2024 [9 favorites]
A bit late in answering, but I think this absolutely appallingly, jaw-droppingly rude, and I'm actually kind of surprised people here seem so mellow about it. If you ask people to a gathering, you don't ask them to pay for it, period, especially after the fact after they've accepted your hospitality! If she had sent me a bill for a party, I would frankly just ignore the request for payment and if she followed up on it would tell her in no uncertain terms what I thought. Someone needs to tell her that this is absolutely unacceptable. My god.
posted by holborne at 9:29 AM on November 19, 2024 [9 favorites]
Yes, incredibly rude.
If she were a good friend, I’d talk to her about it. If not, I’d gossip about it and never attend one of her events again. Rude host etiquette is something people bring up years later.
So by telling her, you really are doing her a favour!
posted by primavera_f at 11:41 AM on November 19, 2024 [1 favorite]
If she were a good friend, I’d talk to her about it. If not, I’d gossip about it and never attend one of her events again. Rude host etiquette is something people bring up years later.
So by telling her, you really are doing her a favour!
posted by primavera_f at 11:41 AM on November 19, 2024 [1 favorite]
Maybe you've got an egregious freeloader in your group (unknown to you) and she doesn't want to call them out directly? (My advice to her woud also be to let it go, but some people can't)
posted by ctmf at 11:43 AM on November 19, 2024
posted by ctmf at 11:43 AM on November 19, 2024
So, I also grew up in a culture where it would be shockingly rude to expect people to pay, even 'their share', at a party that you invited them to. My partner did too - when he is out with people in such situations, he reaches for the check, the entire check, and pays. We don't need to even discuss it - it's just a question of whether he's paying or whether I am sniping him.
However, going back to law school, I have encountered people for whom splitting is more normal - I think due to the rise in things like Venmo, etc. It's much more common for young people to all Venmo each other and have one person pay, than it is for one person to pay - even when the person involved has enough money to pay. These are shifting social norms! And also we live in a world where prices are rising rapidly. It costs 40$ for me to take my tiny immediate family of 3 out to Burger King now!
This is actually how I would address the issue with your friend, too - not as a 'she's wrong' issue, but as in a "man, social norms are shifting so much these days! You really seem hip with the kids, up to the minute with the venmo splitting and all, but the rest of our friend group is really kind of more old-fashioned and prefers to just take turns treating. I think it's making you look bad." This way you're not having a You Are A Bad Person conversation, just a Aren't These Times Wacky? conversation.
posted by corb at 6:14 PM on November 19, 2024 [1 favorite]
However, going back to law school, I have encountered people for whom splitting is more normal - I think due to the rise in things like Venmo, etc. It's much more common for young people to all Venmo each other and have one person pay, than it is for one person to pay - even when the person involved has enough money to pay. These are shifting social norms! And also we live in a world where prices are rising rapidly. It costs 40$ for me to take my tiny immediate family of 3 out to Burger King now!
This is actually how I would address the issue with your friend, too - not as a 'she's wrong' issue, but as in a "man, social norms are shifting so much these days! You really seem hip with the kids, up to the minute with the venmo splitting and all, but the rest of our friend group is really kind of more old-fashioned and prefers to just take turns treating. I think it's making you look bad." This way you're not having a You Are A Bad Person conversation, just a Aren't These Times Wacky? conversation.
posted by corb at 6:14 PM on November 19, 2024 [1 favorite]
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posted by sefsl at 12:41 PM on November 18, 2024 [1 favorite]