Ideas on dividing your life between cities
October 16, 2024 4:39 PM Subscribe
I live in one city (Toronto) and am increasingly starting to suspect that a lot of the things I want, professionally and personally, are way more abundantly found in other cities (NYC and the Bay Area). I don’t think I’m in a position to move, for a number of reasons, most notably that I have 50% custody of a great kid. I’m interested in hearing of ways people have had integrated “second city” in their life. I welcome personal anecdotes, things to read or look at, or anything else that could be helpful.
Some details:
- The main thing I want, in both cities, is people who share my interests, etc. I don’t particularly care about the features of a city like restaurants or museums or plays. It’s just people/communities. As a datapoint: during the pandemic, I made *lots* of new friends online, who really felt, in various ways, like “my people”, and a large majority of them lived in SF and NYC. I have not been as successful in finding that level of connection in the city I live in.
- It also seems to be the case that this is true for professional colleagues and clients - the colleagues and clients I most like seem to be in those cities
- I’m self-employed as a consultant. One possible solution that appeals to me is to find clients in the cities I want to spend more time in, and do some mix of travel and remote work.
- As mentioned above, I have a kid and an ex, which makes it hard to move to another city. That said - I also didn’t move *before* I had a kid, and a pattern I notice is that parents often use their kids as an excuse for not making courageous life choices. For whatever reason, even apart from having a kid, I’m someone who finds a lot of safety in staying put where I am.
- Over the past year or so, I’ve invested a lot of time in exploring the Bay Area - I’ve gone out about five times, for about a week each. I’ve presented at conferences, networked like crazy, put on shows and events. I’m generally finding that I’m meeting a lot of people and being pretty successful in establishing myself out there
Some questions
- If you have experience in dividing between cities, or any resources I could look at, I’d welcome them!
- I’m also always open to responses of the form “You’re actually asking the wrong question here”
- Bonus question: I’d also like to find, here in Toronto, more of what I like in those other cities (something like: very smart people with high agency and high openness to experience). If you have experiences of wishing you were in another city, and then improving your experience of the city you are in, I’d welcome that, too.
Some details:
- The main thing I want, in both cities, is people who share my interests, etc. I don’t particularly care about the features of a city like restaurants or museums or plays. It’s just people/communities. As a datapoint: during the pandemic, I made *lots* of new friends online, who really felt, in various ways, like “my people”, and a large majority of them lived in SF and NYC. I have not been as successful in finding that level of connection in the city I live in.
- It also seems to be the case that this is true for professional colleagues and clients - the colleagues and clients I most like seem to be in those cities
- I’m self-employed as a consultant. One possible solution that appeals to me is to find clients in the cities I want to spend more time in, and do some mix of travel and remote work.
- As mentioned above, I have a kid and an ex, which makes it hard to move to another city. That said - I also didn’t move *before* I had a kid, and a pattern I notice is that parents often use their kids as an excuse for not making courageous life choices. For whatever reason, even apart from having a kid, I’m someone who finds a lot of safety in staying put where I am.
- Over the past year or so, I’ve invested a lot of time in exploring the Bay Area - I’ve gone out about five times, for about a week each. I’ve presented at conferences, networked like crazy, put on shows and events. I’m generally finding that I’m meeting a lot of people and being pretty successful in establishing myself out there
Some questions
- If you have experience in dividing between cities, or any resources I could look at, I’d welcome them!
- I’m also always open to responses of the form “You’re actually asking the wrong question here”
- Bonus question: I’d also like to find, here in Toronto, more of what I like in those other cities (something like: very smart people with high agency and high openness to experience). If you have experiences of wishing you were in another city, and then improving your experience of the city you are in, I’d welcome that, too.
Also, one more thing -- I totally agree that this plan seems feasible (and even great for a kid--how cool to have a second city that you have access to like that!) but should there be an emergency or anything where you need to get home quickly, NYC to Toronto is much more doable. More flights, shorter flights, in a pinch you could drive (you wouldn't want to, but it's doable). That would weigh pretty heavily in my thinking in this situation. I've landed in one city and got a phone call from the other parent that my kid was in the hospital in another city, and it's not a great feeling. The fact that I could easily turn around and head back that same night was a huge relief. Doing that cross-country is a lot harder logistically.
posted by knobknosher at 5:17 PM on October 16 [11 favorites]
posted by knobknosher at 5:17 PM on October 16 [11 favorites]
I spent a significant portion of the pandemic moving back and forth between Vancouver and Ottawa every few months and I would probably still be doing it if I hadn't been forced back into the office. But I have one fewer life commitments than you do -- no kid -- and also a place to stay more or less for free in Vancouver which allowed me to cover my rent in Ottawa.
It's kind of hard to develop really deep communities in that kind of life, because you lose your routines each time you move. I had a good trivia team in Ottawa that died with the pandemic. I got a team together in Vancouver for awhile, but as soon as I left they stopped going, and when I go back I have to try to coax them out again and by the time we'd get a routine going again, it was time for me to leave. I can't get a team back going in Ottawa for the same reason -- the routine is gone, and by the time I started to coax people out, I would leave again.
Also, mail is just a right pain in the ass, though my recollection is you have a nearby ex in Toronto who might take some of the sting out of that. I don't get enough real mail anymore for it to seem like it should be a problem but when something you have to fill out by a deadline arrives in the place you aren't and won't be until after the deadline, it is a whole thing unless you have someone who is willing to not only pick up your mail but open it and send you copies.
posted by jacquilynne at 5:49 PM on October 16 [2 favorites]
It's kind of hard to develop really deep communities in that kind of life, because you lose your routines each time you move. I had a good trivia team in Ottawa that died with the pandemic. I got a team together in Vancouver for awhile, but as soon as I left they stopped going, and when I go back I have to try to coax them out again and by the time we'd get a routine going again, it was time for me to leave. I can't get a team back going in Ottawa for the same reason -- the routine is gone, and by the time I started to coax people out, I would leave again.
Also, mail is just a right pain in the ass, though my recollection is you have a nearby ex in Toronto who might take some of the sting out of that. I don't get enough real mail anymore for it to seem like it should be a problem but when something you have to fill out by a deadline arrives in the place you aren't and won't be until after the deadline, it is a whole thing unless you have someone who is willing to not only pick up your mail but open it and send you copies.
posted by jacquilynne at 5:49 PM on October 16 [2 favorites]
I don't want to burst your bubble about NYC/ SF in any way and am not in any way discouraging from making this happen, but since you might not be able to move anyway soon given your family situation, do want to remind you that it feels so different to make friends on line than on the ground. I am not saying online friends are "less real," I don't even think that. But unless all these internet friends are literally hanging out with each other in each of these two cities, rather than logging on at night while their "in person" partners or kids are watching TV or asleep; or have two sets of community, one they try to see when they can, which is hard to manage, and the other they log in to actually talk to online; then there might not be the kind of community in these cities you imagine. Even if more people there share your sensibility. I actually live in NY now and while there is some ability to do meet ups etc most people here in their 30s and 40s are just busy and hanging out with their small world and then, you know, doing some chatting online.
posted by ponie at 7:05 PM on October 16 [14 favorites]
posted by ponie at 7:05 PM on October 16 [14 favorites]
I literally don't understand how this could work unless you homeschool the kid. School years are 9-10 months long. I wonder if you could do a summer house swap instead.
posted by bookworm4125 at 7:46 PM on October 16 [1 favorite]
posted by bookworm4125 at 7:46 PM on October 16 [1 favorite]
We split our time between a small rural east coast town and a large Midwestern city. I'm an academic, and the split is summer vs. academic year. The two locations are markedly different and one has been harder to establish community in than the other, but I do like the mix. I wouldn't mind fully remote work and even more geographic flexibility.
posted by shadygrove at 8:09 PM on October 16
posted by shadygrove at 8:09 PM on October 16
A lot of any answer to this depends on how long you plan on staying in City B when you go there. Are you talking about going there for, like, a month or two at a time? Or just for a week or two every few months, like an extended vacation? How are you planning on balancing this with your 50% kid responsibilities?
Also: How old are you? I ask because traveling for an entire day, frequently, to get from one place to another is A LOT. Especially as you get older. Toronto-NY isn't that bad, but if you choose to split your time between Toronto and the Bay, plan on eating one full day on either end of each trip getting there and back. And plan on that being a lot more annoying than it sounds like in the abstract.
during the pandemic, I made *lots* of new friends online
Online friends <> IRL friends. That's not to say it'll be impossible to make those IRL friends, but if you're constantly having to say "oh, sorry, I'm back in Toronto next week" when someone who lives in whatever city you're seconding in says "I can't do drinks/movie/whatever tomorrow, what about next week?", it will soon become a lot easier for that person to just...stop asking, because your schedule won't ever match up to theirs.
This, again, is not to discourage you - just to say it won't be as easy as parachuting in and saying HI I'M HERE NOW LET'S GO BE SOCIAL, because people who live in your "other" city year-round have year-round families and jobs and obligations that can't always be shifted to meet someone's traveling schedule.
Also also: SF and NYC are, as you no doubt know, extreeeeeemely expensive places to live (not that Toronto's cheap, but y'know). Don't forget to account for that in your planning.
posted by pdb at 8:44 PM on October 16 [2 favorites]
Also: How old are you? I ask because traveling for an entire day, frequently, to get from one place to another is A LOT. Especially as you get older. Toronto-NY isn't that bad, but if you choose to split your time between Toronto and the Bay, plan on eating one full day on either end of each trip getting there and back. And plan on that being a lot more annoying than it sounds like in the abstract.
during the pandemic, I made *lots* of new friends online
Online friends <> IRL friends. That's not to say it'll be impossible to make those IRL friends, but if you're constantly having to say "oh, sorry, I'm back in Toronto next week" when someone who lives in whatever city you're seconding in says "I can't do drinks/movie/whatever tomorrow, what about next week?", it will soon become a lot easier for that person to just...stop asking, because your schedule won't ever match up to theirs.
This, again, is not to discourage you - just to say it won't be as easy as parachuting in and saying HI I'M HERE NOW LET'S GO BE SOCIAL, because people who live in your "other" city year-round have year-round families and jobs and obligations that can't always be shifted to meet someone's traveling schedule.
Also also: SF and NYC are, as you no doubt know, extreeeeeemely expensive places to live (not that Toronto's cheap, but y'know). Don't forget to account for that in your planning.
posted by pdb at 8:44 PM on October 16 [2 favorites]
I think you have to center this around your kid. How long do you want to be away from him at any give time? Say, a week, a few times a year? A month at a time twice a year or something? Would your ex be ok taking him for that long? Would your kid be ok with you being gone that long? Could your ex bring him into town for a long weekend?
I'm also in Toronto and my kid is 12; she is with me 4 days a week and I co-parent with my ex. I sort of have a second city which is Seattle, which is where my long distance partner lives. So I know some things about travelling to the west coast. I go there twice a year for about a week, and partner comes here for the same duration/frequency so I'm gone from my kid for a week at least twice a year (since the end of 2022. I know twice a year isn't a lot but in some ways it feels like it is). I do like flying, and you find your routines, but it's still kind of grueling with the packing, getting to the airport, lines, waiting, sitting on a metal tank for several hours not thinking about air crashes/near misses/door plugs being blown out, the jet lag, adjusting to the weather and new but familiar scenery etc.
My friend in Sydney, Australia has a 13 year old and her partner (also the kid's dad) goes overseas to Singapore or Malaysia for work for a total of 6 months out of the year. I don't know when he started doing that and how they manage. Another data point that it can be done but it really depends on the parents, age of the kid, etc.
posted by foxjacket at 9:11 PM on October 16 [1 favorite]
I'm also in Toronto and my kid is 12; she is with me 4 days a week and I co-parent with my ex. I sort of have a second city which is Seattle, which is where my long distance partner lives. So I know some things about travelling to the west coast. I go there twice a year for about a week, and partner comes here for the same duration/frequency so I'm gone from my kid for a week at least twice a year (since the end of 2022. I know twice a year isn't a lot but in some ways it feels like it is). I do like flying, and you find your routines, but it's still kind of grueling with the packing, getting to the airport, lines, waiting, sitting on a metal tank for several hours not thinking about air crashes/near misses/door plugs being blown out, the jet lag, adjusting to the weather and new but familiar scenery etc.
My friend in Sydney, Australia has a 13 year old and her partner (also the kid's dad) goes overseas to Singapore or Malaysia for work for a total of 6 months out of the year. I don't know when he started doing that and how they manage. Another data point that it can be done but it really depends on the parents, age of the kid, etc.
posted by foxjacket at 9:11 PM on October 16 [1 favorite]
So a coworker of mine tried this with two west coast cities. Even with that short of distance it was still exhausting. His solution was to talk with his ex and they decided to both move to where he wanted to live with their kid. It was a neat place to raise a kid, they both had jobs that could relocate, and while I did lose touch with him soon after from what I heard it worked out very well.
posted by lepus at 9:47 PM on October 16
posted by lepus at 9:47 PM on October 16
Two unplanned but possibly replicable ways I maintain contact with my second city/people.
1. I worked out a branch office of an employer with headquarters in the second city. As a senior employee I travelled to headquarters every 2-3 weeks and was often able to fold personal time into my trips, which were funded by the employer. This maps to your suggestion of building a clientele in the second city which would be functionally the same. However, you will have the challenge of selling your services without being able to network in person as well as a full-time resident.
2. I am a board member on an NGO headquartered in the second city. I attend board meetings and functions in the second city every couple of months, again at the expense of the org in question.
Now the bad news. I was in your position a while back. It is very, very hard to maintain shared custody AND any kind of regular work travel, because typically you can't control your work travel timing and this causes problems being a good parent at that level of custody. Eventually my ex wanted to move to a city where I really didn't, and the arrangement was that child would spend all school holidays with me fulltime, so about 20% of the year, and I planned all my annual leave around that (and was fortunate enough to have an employer who let me take additional unpaid leave). The dream arrangement is just logistically very challenging.
Re finding your people in the city where you live, I have had that challenge in the city I live in now. I've found success over time haunting meetup groups, consciously building on the networks of the relatively rare people I do connect with, and even starting groups around my interest and making enough noise that people come to me. (And make sure to ask your NYC and SF friends, who do you know in Toronto?)
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 9:53 PM on October 16 [3 favorites]
1. I worked out a branch office of an employer with headquarters in the second city. As a senior employee I travelled to headquarters every 2-3 weeks and was often able to fold personal time into my trips, which were funded by the employer. This maps to your suggestion of building a clientele in the second city which would be functionally the same. However, you will have the challenge of selling your services without being able to network in person as well as a full-time resident.
2. I am a board member on an NGO headquartered in the second city. I attend board meetings and functions in the second city every couple of months, again at the expense of the org in question.
Now the bad news. I was in your position a while back. It is very, very hard to maintain shared custody AND any kind of regular work travel, because typically you can't control your work travel timing and this causes problems being a good parent at that level of custody. Eventually my ex wanted to move to a city where I really didn't, and the arrangement was that child would spend all school holidays with me fulltime, so about 20% of the year, and I planned all my annual leave around that (and was fortunate enough to have an employer who let me take additional unpaid leave). The dream arrangement is just logistically very challenging.
Re finding your people in the city where you live, I have had that challenge in the city I live in now. I've found success over time haunting meetup groups, consciously building on the networks of the relatively rare people I do connect with, and even starting groups around my interest and making enough noise that people come to me. (And make sure to ask your NYC and SF friends, who do you know in Toronto?)
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 9:53 PM on October 16 [3 favorites]
I wonder if you’re experiencing “vacation mindset” when you visit the other cities - are you more relaxed and open to new experiences while there, since you’re free of the daily burdens of regular life? This alone might be the difference between the people you’ve met so far. I’ve only been to Toronto once but do have some friends there, and I spent my twenties in SF, and I felt like they seemed fairly comparable socially (but of course sub communities matter most, I get it).
I think you should invite your NYC friends to a weekend in Toronto. How would you entertain them? Who can they connect you with in Toronto?
My parents (in their late 60s in good health) split their time between the Bay Area, where my sister lives, and Southern California where I now live. They spend about 4 weeks in each location before swapping. They find it a bit frustrating to handle routine medical tasks, to schedule house projects, and honestly even to maintain the same experience with their friends (for example, my dad used to ride his bike daily with a friend; now that my dad is gone every other month; the friend has found a third buddy with whom he bikes daily, and my dad has become the third wheel who tags along sometimes). They mitigate the inconveniences by limiting travel, and frankly, by spending money - they literally maintain two fully appointed homes, one in each place. Obviously this is expensive. They’re retired now, so that also helps with timing - they have no obligations.
posted by samthemander at 11:05 PM on October 16 [2 favorites]
I think you should invite your NYC friends to a weekend in Toronto. How would you entertain them? Who can they connect you with in Toronto?
My parents (in their late 60s in good health) split their time between the Bay Area, where my sister lives, and Southern California where I now live. They spend about 4 weeks in each location before swapping. They find it a bit frustrating to handle routine medical tasks, to schedule house projects, and honestly even to maintain the same experience with their friends (for example, my dad used to ride his bike daily with a friend; now that my dad is gone every other month; the friend has found a third buddy with whom he bikes daily, and my dad has become the third wheel who tags along sometimes). They mitigate the inconveniences by limiting travel, and frankly, by spending money - they literally maintain two fully appointed homes, one in each place. Obviously this is expensive. They’re retired now, so that also helps with timing - they have no obligations.
posted by samthemander at 11:05 PM on October 16 [2 favorites]
Have you actually met up with your online friends in person? If so, was your connection the same or were you closer online?
I am somewhat reserved but can probably come across more open online. If a person met me online and then in person, they might find the experience is different. Maybe they would be disappointed!
Sometimes other places are nice to visit, but moving there is a different story.
Your child is a huge factor in deciding whether or not to move.
I would personally suggest that you maintain your online friendships, visit these places on holiday occasionally, see your friends in person if you can but also try to find your people in Toronto. Maybe something will change in the future, but for now moving does not seem to be on the cards.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 11:11 PM on October 16 [5 favorites]
I am somewhat reserved but can probably come across more open online. If a person met me online and then in person, they might find the experience is different. Maybe they would be disappointed!
Sometimes other places are nice to visit, but moving there is a different story.
Your child is a huge factor in deciding whether or not to move.
I would personally suggest that you maintain your online friendships, visit these places on holiday occasionally, see your friends in person if you can but also try to find your people in Toronto. Maybe something will change in the future, but for now moving does not seem to be on the cards.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 11:11 PM on October 16 [5 favorites]
Friend, I have been that person who believed that my town was not my home, these were not my people, and New York City was where I was going to find true belonging. Over the years I have learned that home is where I decided to do the work of making one, belonging is something I create for myself not something other people do for me. I began to host one annual party, and suddenly I'm embraced in my community as that person who throws that annual party everyone looks forward to. Instead of considering myself distant and different from the people around me, I made a concerted effort to get to know the people I already knew, better. Surprise! They turned out to have depths I had not suspected until I decided to try to plumb them!
All people are like that. They are interesting and wonderful and capable of being your safe harbor - all that remains is for you to try to get to know them. Same goes for your town, too. It has unplumbed depths, interesting histories, nooks and corners that will sing to you if only you bother to look.
Like you, I too had kids and got divorced and now have shared custody. But I'm glad I learned to put down roots and embrace being here now before my kids were much grown. Your kids deserve to feel at home with you, too, but they can't when you are constantly looking elsewhere for it. Believe me: I grew up with parents who always felt that real life was happening elsewhere and because of it, there is a distinct itchiness and a sense of inadequacy in the atmosphere of their home to this day. It's hard for me to believe that my parents were ever truly happy with their life... and that, to a child, is one rather poignant form of tragedy. More than you may realize, children benefit from parents who are content and therefore exude peace, satisfaction, and self esteem.
posted by MiraK at 3:50 AM on October 17 [18 favorites]
All people are like that. They are interesting and wonderful and capable of being your safe harbor - all that remains is for you to try to get to know them. Same goes for your town, too. It has unplumbed depths, interesting histories, nooks and corners that will sing to you if only you bother to look.
Like you, I too had kids and got divorced and now have shared custody. But I'm glad I learned to put down roots and embrace being here now before my kids were much grown. Your kids deserve to feel at home with you, too, but they can't when you are constantly looking elsewhere for it. Believe me: I grew up with parents who always felt that real life was happening elsewhere and because of it, there is a distinct itchiness and a sense of inadequacy in the atmosphere of their home to this day. It's hard for me to believe that my parents were ever truly happy with their life... and that, to a child, is one rather poignant form of tragedy. More than you may realize, children benefit from parents who are content and therefore exude peace, satisfaction, and self esteem.
posted by MiraK at 3:50 AM on October 17 [18 favorites]
I keep coming back and thinking about your post, because it resonates so strongly with how I used to feel in the past. Wanted to share a famous Teddy Roosevelt quote with you that sums up the process through which I made my current city into my true home:
“It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat. Shame on the man of cultivated taste who permits refinement to develop into a fastidiousness that unfits him for doing the rough work of a workaday world! ”
Roll up your sleeves, OP, and get into the arena. Devote yourself to building your home here. A lot of men find themselves with too few connections in their community that they can call their own once their heterosexual relationship ends; what you are experiencing is not uncommon. I know what has worked for a few men I know who have been through this: they got involved in their communities. One started volunteering regularly at pet shelters, and built up connections through there. Another guy I know joined the Unitarian church (in case you don't know it's totally non denominational and not big on religiosity, it's more about forming community and doing good works). These kinds of efforts are not beneath you, don't become the "man of cultivated taste" who doesn't want to get his hands dirty. Become physically involved in the community around you, the emotional commitment WILL follow.
posted by MiraK at 4:09 AM on October 17 [3 favorites]
“It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat. Shame on the man of cultivated taste who permits refinement to develop into a fastidiousness that unfits him for doing the rough work of a workaday world! ”
Roll up your sleeves, OP, and get into the arena. Devote yourself to building your home here. A lot of men find themselves with too few connections in their community that they can call their own once their heterosexual relationship ends; what you are experiencing is not uncommon. I know what has worked for a few men I know who have been through this: they got involved in their communities. One started volunteering regularly at pet shelters, and built up connections through there. Another guy I know joined the Unitarian church (in case you don't know it's totally non denominational and not big on religiosity, it's more about forming community and doing good works). These kinds of efforts are not beneath you, don't become the "man of cultivated taste" who doesn't want to get his hands dirty. Become physically involved in the community around you, the emotional commitment WILL follow.
posted by MiraK at 4:09 AM on October 17 [3 favorites]
I grew up with parents who always felt that real life was happening elsewhere and because of it, there is a distinct itchiness and a sense of inadequacy in the atmosphere of their home to this day. It's hard for me to believe that my parents were ever truly happy with their life... and that, to a child, is one rather poignant form of tragedy. More than you may realize, children benefit from parents who are content and therefore exude peace, satisfaction, and self esteem.
damn MiraK why you gotta make me cry before breakfast. heartily but sadly co-sign this.
OP I strongly recommend you explore the itchy feeling and hyper fixate less on NYC/SF and more on “why am I constantly scratching myself”. I am not going to project anything on you but there could be a million reasons why you’re itchy but unfortunately, many or all itch-causing problems will follow you to a new country/city unless you get a handle on them where you actually are. And they all have different solutions too. Poison ivy isn’t the same as eczema or bed bugs or hives or or or…
posted by seemoorglass at 5:34 AM on October 17 [1 favorite]
damn MiraK why you gotta make me cry before breakfast. heartily but sadly co-sign this.
OP I strongly recommend you explore the itchy feeling and hyper fixate less on NYC/SF and more on “why am I constantly scratching myself”. I am not going to project anything on you but there could be a million reasons why you’re itchy but unfortunately, many or all itch-causing problems will follow you to a new country/city unless you get a handle on them where you actually are. And they all have different solutions too. Poison ivy isn’t the same as eczema or bed bugs or hives or or or…
posted by seemoorglass at 5:34 AM on October 17 [1 favorite]
I'm just thinking about the millions of people who wish they could live among all the super smart and cool people who love new experiences in Toronto.
I suppose any place can lose its shine if you've lived there your whole life, but you seem to be overlooking what an objectively great reputation it has.
My friend is visiting Toronto this week (at significant cost, including many grueling hours in a car alone with two kids) and she is ecstatic to be there for just a few days!
My point is, I would understand your question a lot more if you lived in some distant exurb or a rural town that was a lot different than a big cool cosmopolitan metropolis. But you already live in one of those, and it's not clear to me that one is really that much better than the others in terms of "cool smart people" abundance, which is your main priority. This seems like it might be a "grass is always greener on the other side of the hill" issue.
Maybe try doing different stuff in TO and try to see it with fresh eyes for a while?
posted by SaltySalticid at 5:55 AM on October 17 [1 favorite]
I suppose any place can lose its shine if you've lived there your whole life, but you seem to be overlooking what an objectively great reputation it has.
My friend is visiting Toronto this week (at significant cost, including many grueling hours in a car alone with two kids) and she is ecstatic to be there for just a few days!
My point is, I would understand your question a lot more if you lived in some distant exurb or a rural town that was a lot different than a big cool cosmopolitan metropolis. But you already live in one of those, and it's not clear to me that one is really that much better than the others in terms of "cool smart people" abundance, which is your main priority. This seems like it might be a "grass is always greener on the other side of the hill" issue.
Maybe try doing different stuff in TO and try to see it with fresh eyes for a while?
posted by SaltySalticid at 5:55 AM on October 17 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: (to be clear: I *am* committed to making life in Toronto better, too. I go to multiple events, I host events in my home and elsewhere. It's not an either/or thing, it's a both/and thing... My hope is to live most of my life here, and also find connection to other places, to satisfy some of what I don't get here...)
posted by ManInSuit at 5:58 AM on October 17 [3 favorites]
posted by ManInSuit at 5:58 AM on October 17 [3 favorites]
I’m trying to puzzle out what SPECIFIC thing you feel like people in NYC and the Bay Area have that Torontoans (?) don’t. I mean, NOBODY else in all of Toronto fits your vibe? It feels like a major piece of information is missing here, because either you can’t articulate exactly why you feel your personality conflicts with everyone in your current city OR you decided not to share the specifics for some reason.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:23 AM on October 17 [1 favorite]
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:23 AM on October 17 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: In response to MirkaK - I know that quote, and feel like I'm acting on it. In Toronto, I've hosted dozens of events, attended dozens more, started groups for people who share my interest, and gone out for countless coffeee/dinner/drinks with new people. I've also gone to SF about five times in the past year, each time for a week or so, where I have also organized and attended tons of events, presented at conferences, met with potential clients.
Also: I'm super-wary of being someone who lives in a city and complains about it as a way to not do stuff. I expect there's *some* component of "vacation mindset" and grass is greener at work here. I'm trying to balance an awareness of that with a sense that there really *is* a real difference between the cities that *does* matter to me. I have asked all the people I met who live in SF and NYC for recommedndations of people here, and I am not getting those. A substantial number of the people I've met here who I've liked have ended up moving away, to SF/NYC. I also know quite a few people who have moved from here to those other places, and liked it, and very few cases of the other direction
posted by ManInSuit at 6:25 AM on October 17 [2 favorites]
Also: I'm super-wary of being someone who lives in a city and complains about it as a way to not do stuff. I expect there's *some* component of "vacation mindset" and grass is greener at work here. I'm trying to balance an awareness of that with a sense that there really *is* a real difference between the cities that *does* matter to me. I have asked all the people I met who live in SF and NYC for recommedndations of people here, and I am not getting those. A substantial number of the people I've met here who I've liked have ended up moving away, to SF/NYC. I also know quite a few people who have moved from here to those other places, and liked it, and very few cases of the other direction
posted by ManInSuit at 6:25 AM on October 17 [2 favorites]
I like to think of the Buckaroo Banzai quote, "Where ever you go, there you are." I did a lot of moving around in my life because I was so sure that the next place I moved to would be so much better! Rinse, repeat.
If you want to do it, do it, but I think you will encounter a lot more issues around parenting than you realize. I wish I could afford to live in Toronto and have access to more cultural interests etc than where I currently live. (I love Kingston but lbr, it's very sleepy.)
posted by Kitteh at 6:31 AM on October 17
If you want to do it, do it, but I think you will encounter a lot more issues around parenting than you realize. I wish I could afford to live in Toronto and have access to more cultural interests etc than where I currently live. (I love Kingston but lbr, it's very sleepy.)
posted by Kitteh at 6:31 AM on October 17
Response by poster: I’m trying to puzzle out what SPECIFIC thing you feel like people in NYC and the Bay Area have that Torontoans (?) don’t. I mean, NOBODY else in all of Toronto fits your vibe? It feels like a major piece of information is missing here, because either you can’t articulate exactly why you feel your personality conflicts with everyone in your current city OR you decided not to share the specifics for some reason.
That's a really good question!! It's easier to describe the enviroment difference than the people difference. Environmentally - SF and NYC are both places that produce very large number of things with global impact. Canada is mostly a place where we have branch plants, and export resources (including talent). I've heard it desribed as a "go for bronze" mentality.
In SF: Tech is the obvious one right now. A huge amount of the tech stuff that changes the world comes from there. I know there are tons of talented tech *people* here, but there are *not* people starting world-impacting companies the way there historically have been in and around the bay.
I like experimental ways for people to get along: The Bay has been a source of all kinds of innovation - everything from hippies, to queer communities, that have impact elsewhere. It's where Burning Man was invented. Toronto has lots of great stuff, but it is not where peopel are *inventing* new things that get exported elsewhere.
New York, similarly: If one were to list the number of cultural/commercial things of global impact that are invented there, I mean, it's of course overwhelming. Toronto just does not compare.
I feel like there are lots of people, organizations in the US who are trying (and succeeding) to be the best in the world at something. In Canada, that's exceedingly unusual (people are often trying to be the best in Canada at something which is really not the same).
I like being around people who are really trying to make a dent in the world, and it seems uncontroversial to imagine that such people might be much more likely to be in SF and NYC than Toronto, and also that people trying to make those dents would fare better in those environments
How this affects the people is harder to describe, but it really does change things. It's hard to know what is cause and what is affect- but it seems not-surprising that places with large amounts of world-changing impact would atttract different people, and would shape people differently.
posted by ManInSuit at 6:44 AM on October 17
That's a really good question!! It's easier to describe the enviroment difference than the people difference. Environmentally - SF and NYC are both places that produce very large number of things with global impact. Canada is mostly a place where we have branch plants, and export resources (including talent). I've heard it desribed as a "go for bronze" mentality.
In SF: Tech is the obvious one right now. A huge amount of the tech stuff that changes the world comes from there. I know there are tons of talented tech *people* here, but there are *not* people starting world-impacting companies the way there historically have been in and around the bay.
I like experimental ways for people to get along: The Bay has been a source of all kinds of innovation - everything from hippies, to queer communities, that have impact elsewhere. It's where Burning Man was invented. Toronto has lots of great stuff, but it is not where peopel are *inventing* new things that get exported elsewhere.
New York, similarly: If one were to list the number of cultural/commercial things of global impact that are invented there, I mean, it's of course overwhelming. Toronto just does not compare.
I feel like there are lots of people, organizations in the US who are trying (and succeeding) to be the best in the world at something. In Canada, that's exceedingly unusual (people are often trying to be the best in Canada at something which is really not the same).
I like being around people who are really trying to make a dent in the world, and it seems uncontroversial to imagine that such people might be much more likely to be in SF and NYC than Toronto, and also that people trying to make those dents would fare better in those environments
How this affects the people is harder to describe, but it really does change things. It's hard to know what is cause and what is affect- but it seems not-surprising that places with large amounts of world-changing impact would atttract different people, and would shape people differently.
posted by ManInSuit at 6:44 AM on October 17
Response by poster: I wish I could afford to live in Toronto and have access to more cultural interests etc than where I currently live. (I love Kingston but lbr, it's very sleepy.)
I guess to me it sorta feels like in some ways
NYC:Toronto :: Toronto:Kingston
posted by ManInSuit at 8:00 AM on October 17
I guess to me it sorta feels like in some ways
NYC:Toronto :: Toronto:Kingston
posted by ManInSuit at 8:00 AM on October 17
You know, ManInSuit, I definitely do empathize with you and understand what you mean when you say you want to be around a certain kind of person whom you haven't run into your own city. And yes, I understand you're trying to both/and this.
Some ideas for how you can both/and without trying to live one-foot-here-one-foot-there while also raising your child:
- Look into remote work opportunities with companies located in these cities, whose work culture you may enjoy a lot more than Toronto work culture. I swear by working for super techie companies even though I am just barely technically literate myself - because I really dig the vibe of these nerdy folks.
- Think about postponing your dreams of moving to once your kid is grown and off to college. Give your kid the steady presence they need *for now*, and then move wherever. These years do go by quickly, and you will still have a lot of life left. There is no such thing as too late until you're actually dead :)
- Try to meet more people, build it into your monthly or biweekly routine. Toronto is chock full of entrepreneurs, maybe you'll find people who are hungry in the way you like in the organizations and events they frequent? You live in a big enough city that you are very likely to find crazy, nerdy, obsessive people in any niche you care to think of - you gotta go looking for them though.
I hope you find all of these answers inspiring rather than shaming. I'm coming from a place of knowing what you feel because I have felt it too.
posted by MiraK at 8:17 AM on October 17 [3 favorites]
Some ideas for how you can both/and without trying to live one-foot-here-one-foot-there while also raising your child:
- Look into remote work opportunities with companies located in these cities, whose work culture you may enjoy a lot more than Toronto work culture. I swear by working for super techie companies even though I am just barely technically literate myself - because I really dig the vibe of these nerdy folks.
- Think about postponing your dreams of moving to once your kid is grown and off to college. Give your kid the steady presence they need *for now*, and then move wherever. These years do go by quickly, and you will still have a lot of life left. There is no such thing as too late until you're actually dead :)
- Try to meet more people, build it into your monthly or biweekly routine. Toronto is chock full of entrepreneurs, maybe you'll find people who are hungry in the way you like in the organizations and events they frequent? You live in a big enough city that you are very likely to find crazy, nerdy, obsessive people in any niche you care to think of - you gotta go looking for them though.
I hope you find all of these answers inspiring rather than shaming. I'm coming from a place of knowing what you feel because I have felt it too.
posted by MiraK at 8:17 AM on October 17 [3 favorites]
If this plan, however executed, is going to substantially reduce the amount of time you spend with your child, I would seriously consider if it is worth it.
If not, I think your best bet is to try and work for a company that has a remote work policy and HQs in SF or NYC. I'm completely remote but attend regular (2x a year) work events and thats nice and no effort on my part to organize.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:24 AM on October 17 [3 favorites]
If not, I think your best bet is to try and work for a company that has a remote work policy and HQs in SF or NYC. I'm completely remote but attend regular (2x a year) work events and thats nice and no effort on my part to organize.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:24 AM on October 17 [3 favorites]
Also, widen your horizons and stop buying American propaganda hook line and sinker. You think people in NYC and SF are trying to be, and succeeding at being, the best in the world just because they boast of it, and just because that's how they spin it. But it's not the truth, not even nearly. Americans are notoriously insular. The "World Cup" in baseball has lik two countries participating in it, you know? There are MANY more vibrant places in the world, filled with brilliantly innovative and super smart people. Just one trip to any town or city in India, for example, will blow your mind at how incredibly innovative people are on an everyday basis - simply because they live under more challenging conditions. And their innovativeness is *real*, not hot air they're blowing up a VC's ass, you know?
posted by MiraK at 8:25 AM on October 17 [3 favorites]
posted by MiraK at 8:25 AM on October 17 [3 favorites]
I'm very sympathetic - as a Torontonian I also felt that way about SF 12 years ago, and I feel that way about parts of LA. Once my kids are a bit more grown I plan to pursue some education in California.
However, got to challenge you here:
Canada is mostly a place where we have branch plants, and export resources (including talent). I've heard it desribed as a "go for bronze" mentality.
As a lifetime Torontonian, this is not really as much the case right now and hasn't been for some time. The report available at this link shows that even as early as 2017 Toronto was marked as a hot spot for innovation worldwide. Here's an article about unicorns and Toronto.
For sure, the US impact on culture and megacorporations is huge but here are a few Canadian startups: Shopify (Ottawa), Wattpad (Toronto, now acquired), Ecobee (Toronto), Freshbooks (Toronto I think). AI is massive here and has been for a while (check out the Vector Institute). Inventions include IMAX (Montreal/Toronto), the first search engine (Montreal), obviously the telephone and pages and plexiglass and insulin.
You should look at MaRS and the 2021 report on venture capital investment in Toronto. I think I remember you asked about taking your kid to Waterloo so you probably are well integrated into the Toronto-Waterloo corridor. And Alberta has its own hyperloop.
U of T (I am biased) is a leader in both research and business innovation and working on the Scarborough campus I have to assure you we have a lot of cool innovators here both in research and creating startups. These guys are
I would say Canadians are less likely to use innovation as a topic of discussion and Toronto is really hard to network in. I meet more Torontonians in conferences etc. in other cities than here. I trained for a year with a fellow martial arts student before I learned that they were C-suite in a worldwide RFID company for parties; another person I met the same way own a biotech heart monitor company. And tall poppy syndrome is real, but I'm not convinced it stiffles innovation. I think it does prevent people from using words like "the best" or even "world-class." But they still are doing cool stuff. It's just your networks have to be deeper.
But also, here's the real trick to why some people in Toronto might not hear about all the innovative stuff going on - a lot of Toronto innovation is happening in communities that aren't white majority.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:26 AM on October 17 [6 favorites]
However, got to challenge you here:
Canada is mostly a place where we have branch plants, and export resources (including talent). I've heard it desribed as a "go for bronze" mentality.
As a lifetime Torontonian, this is not really as much the case right now and hasn't been for some time. The report available at this link shows that even as early as 2017 Toronto was marked as a hot spot for innovation worldwide. Here's an article about unicorns and Toronto.
For sure, the US impact on culture and megacorporations is huge but here are a few Canadian startups: Shopify (Ottawa), Wattpad (Toronto, now acquired), Ecobee (Toronto), Freshbooks (Toronto I think). AI is massive here and has been for a while (check out the Vector Institute). Inventions include IMAX (Montreal/Toronto), the first search engine (Montreal), obviously the telephone and pages and plexiglass and insulin.
You should look at MaRS and the 2021 report on venture capital investment in Toronto. I think I remember you asked about taking your kid to Waterloo so you probably are well integrated into the Toronto-Waterloo corridor. And Alberta has its own hyperloop.
U of T (I am biased) is a leader in both research and business innovation and working on the Scarborough campus I have to assure you we have a lot of cool innovators here both in research and creating startups. These guys are
I would say Canadians are less likely to use innovation as a topic of discussion and Toronto is really hard to network in. I meet more Torontonians in conferences etc. in other cities than here. I trained for a year with a fellow martial arts student before I learned that they were C-suite in a worldwide RFID company for parties; another person I met the same way own a biotech heart monitor company. And tall poppy syndrome is real, but I'm not convinced it stiffles innovation. I think it does prevent people from using words like "the best" or even "world-class." But they still are doing cool stuff. It's just your networks have to be deeper.
But also, here's the real trick to why some people in Toronto might not hear about all the innovative stuff going on - a lot of Toronto innovation is happening in communities that aren't white majority.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:26 AM on October 17 [6 favorites]
I understand people’s hesitations here, but off the top of my head I know at least 5-6 people who live in NYC part time. It’s expensive to travel that much but if you can afford it, whatevs. You won’t want to spend a month at a time but 7-10 days a month? With shared custody? Not a huge problem IMO. Just make sure to include your kid in that side of your life as well.
posted by knobknosher at 8:26 AM on October 17 [1 favorite]
posted by knobknosher at 8:26 AM on October 17 [1 favorite]
I’d be concerned about cross-border tax and immigration concerns. You’re better off working at Google and regularly travelling on business to the US. If you travel enough, they’ll give you an intermittent L1 which is a dual intent visa so you can stay in the US as long as you like.
posted by shock muppet at 8:44 AM on October 17 [1 favorite]
posted by shock muppet at 8:44 AM on October 17 [1 favorite]
Perhaps you already have this sorted somehow, but if you are consulting for an American company and go there to do the work, as far as I know you must have a work visa.
I'm a US citizen from San Francisco and used to live half the year in British Columbia while working remotely on a tourist visa. The reason this was legal was that I was employed by and working for an American company. If I had been working for a Canadian company, I would have needed a work visa which is a much more involved and expensive thing to get.
Is kiddo coming with you? if not, and you are not able to maintain 50% custody of your child you may have to pay more in child support (at least that is how it works here in the US). And if kiddo is coming, you will need your child's mother to be 100% on board with this plan, as taking children of divorced parents across international borders requires at least permission and sometimes legal documentation. I also wonder how this is going to be for the child wrt schooling and friendships.
I think it's probably more sensible to get an apartment in NYC and just spend some more time there building your network. Save being bi-coastal until the kid is older.
posted by ananci at 8:49 AM on October 17
I'm a US citizen from San Francisco and used to live half the year in British Columbia while working remotely on a tourist visa. The reason this was legal was that I was employed by and working for an American company. If I had been working for a Canadian company, I would have needed a work visa which is a much more involved and expensive thing to get.
Is kiddo coming with you? if not, and you are not able to maintain 50% custody of your child you may have to pay more in child support (at least that is how it works here in the US). And if kiddo is coming, you will need your child's mother to be 100% on board with this plan, as taking children of divorced parents across international borders requires at least permission and sometimes legal documentation. I also wonder how this is going to be for the child wrt schooling and friendships.
I think it's probably more sensible to get an apartment in NYC and just spend some more time there building your network. Save being bi-coastal until the kid is older.
posted by ananci at 8:49 AM on October 17
Response by poster: (also for those who say this will mean less time with my kid: It will not. I have 50% custody of my kid, generally on a week-on, week-off basis. That's unchanging. We spend a lot of time together. I'm mostly thinking that, of the 26 weeks of the year I spend without my kid, I might spend 5 or 6 of them in other cities, building networks for remote work etc. Maybe taking a bit of time in those other cities with my kid. My co-parent and I are also both very open to making schedule changes to accomodate each other's needs)
posted by ManInSuit at 9:30 AM on October 17
posted by ManInSuit at 9:30 AM on October 17
Response by poster: I understand people’s hesitations here, but off the top of my head I know at least 5-6 people who live in NYC part time.
How far do they travel from?
posted by ManInSuit at 9:31 AM on October 17
How far do they travel from?
posted by ManInSuit at 9:31 AM on October 17
For many years (but no longer!) I've been splitting my time between Baltimore and Ottawa, skewed to Baltimore. This was doable [for me] and fun for a lot of it, but by the end, it was honestly pretty exhausting, and I think for the vast majority of people there's some kind of time limit. For most people, based on conversations I've had over the years, I think this wouldn't really be doable at all for more than a year or two -- it's too schizophrenic, too hard to maintain solid ties in both places, too expensive, prevents too many life activities (having a pet), etc. I absolutely could not have been doing what I've been doing with a 50% dependent in the picture. However, I do know of people who've done crazier and longer versions of this than even what you are thinking of, so it's possible for a (very, very) few; two common denominators though are a supportive spouse/partner, and a fair amount of money. A time zone difference is going to make this harder. I will also add that like many other responders, I definitely see some grass-is-greener thinking in your question -- I don't remotely perceive Toronto (or the bay area for that matter) in the way you do. NYC is also very much not for me, but I at least understand the perception as someone who lives in its broad east coast orbit.
Also: I hope both you and your child are dual citizens or have a means for legal permanent residence already, and I see that this isn't mentioned. Because otherwise, there's a lot of border logistics that don't seem to be factored in. If you don't already have a way to legally move to the US beyond the regular allowance for Canadian visitors, that would seem to be a big non-starter for you, let alone bringing a child regularly (which will be scrutinized). Overall, I found the border to be one regularly stressful piece throughout, as a US-only citizen doing 2-3 months a year at most.
posted by advil at 9:32 AM on October 17
Also: I hope both you and your child are dual citizens or have a means for legal permanent residence already, and I see that this isn't mentioned. Because otherwise, there's a lot of border logistics that don't seem to be factored in. If you don't already have a way to legally move to the US beyond the regular allowance for Canadian visitors, that would seem to be a big non-starter for you, let alone bringing a child regularly (which will be scrutinized). Overall, I found the border to be one regularly stressful piece throughout, as a US-only citizen doing 2-3 months a year at most.
posted by advil at 9:32 AM on October 17
Response by poster: Canada is mostly a place where we have branch plants, and export resources (including talent). I've heard it desribed as a "go for bronze" mentality.
As a lifetime Torontonian, this is not really as much the case right now and hasn't been for some time. The report available at this link shows that even as early as 2017 Toronto was marked as a hot spot for innovation worldwide. Here's an article about unicorns and Toronto.
For sure, the US impact on culture and megacorporations is huge but here are a few Canadian startups: Shopify (Ottawa), Wattpad (Toronto, now acquired), Ecobee (Toronto), Freshbooks (Toronto I think)...
I guess I find this response weird, and kinda gets at what I find notable about the differences between the cultures.
My claim is that in tech, eg, Toronto is mostly branch offices, compared to say, the Bay Area, where there are lot more leaders and head offices. The response is to point to four companies, the most notable of which is in Ottawa, 300 miles away.
Toronto has: Wattpad, Ecobee and Freshbooks
Bay area has: Apple, Netflix, Meta, Google, OpenAI, Anthropic, Twitch, Adobe, Square, Salesforce, NVIDIA, and dozens of others. Many of these are companies that, for better or worse, really made the world a different place. I don't think the same is true of ecobee or freshbooks
As for branch offices: Around 700 people work at google toronto, more than that at Meta Toronto, Salesforce have over 1000. Each of those branch offices is bigger than the entirety of Ecobee or freshbooks, and there are a bunch more of them
I guess it feels like part of the "go for bronze" mentality for me when people try to claim that the tech impact of companies here is in some way comparable with what happens in the Bay. There are cool great people here doing cool things. But it seems just false to try and suggest that the two places are comparable in terms of impact of the companies that are based here
posted by ManInSuit at 2:53 PM on October 17
As a lifetime Torontonian, this is not really as much the case right now and hasn't been for some time. The report available at this link shows that even as early as 2017 Toronto was marked as a hot spot for innovation worldwide. Here's an article about unicorns and Toronto.
For sure, the US impact on culture and megacorporations is huge but here are a few Canadian startups: Shopify (Ottawa), Wattpad (Toronto, now acquired), Ecobee (Toronto), Freshbooks (Toronto I think)...
I guess I find this response weird, and kinda gets at what I find notable about the differences between the cultures.
My claim is that in tech, eg, Toronto is mostly branch offices, compared to say, the Bay Area, where there are lot more leaders and head offices. The response is to point to four companies, the most notable of which is in Ottawa, 300 miles away.
Toronto has: Wattpad, Ecobee and Freshbooks
Bay area has: Apple, Netflix, Meta, Google, OpenAI, Anthropic, Twitch, Adobe, Square, Salesforce, NVIDIA, and dozens of others. Many of these are companies that, for better or worse, really made the world a different place. I don't think the same is true of ecobee or freshbooks
As for branch offices: Around 700 people work at google toronto, more than that at Meta Toronto, Salesforce have over 1000. Each of those branch offices is bigger than the entirety of Ecobee or freshbooks, and there are a bunch more of them
I guess it feels like part of the "go for bronze" mentality for me when people try to claim that the tech impact of companies here is in some way comparable with what happens in the Bay. There are cool great people here doing cool things. But it seems just false to try and suggest that the two places are comparable in terms of impact of the companies that are based here
posted by ManInSuit at 2:53 PM on October 17
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Having a steady place to stay where you can keep a toothbrush, have your own pillow, etc. is HUGE in this situation. A hotel you stay at regularly is second best but still way better than just staying in multiple places. It helps minimize the stress of travel a lot if you always know where you're headed instead of reinventing the wheel each time.
In NYC it's very common for adults to have roommates, and you could probably find a like-minded roommate and avoid paying full price for a NYC apartment. You being gone a lot of the time would be a big bonus when it comes to the roommate market. It's also common for people to travel a lot, have bases in other places, etc. so you wouldn't have to do a ton of explaining. That said, I'm not sure if that's true of the Bay Area or not, I don't have as much experience there.
posted by knobknosher at 5:12 PM on October 16 [3 favorites]